The American Scene; Captain Mariat

Good morning, this is Howard Vincent doing the arts for the American scene, Illinois Institute of Technology. We had quite a variety of shows in the past few weeks you'll have to admit. We've had famous discussions of famous people, famous subjects, we've had discussions of minor people and minor subjects. The famous subjects, such as James Joyce when we had Richard Ellman talking about him when we had Ernest Samuel talking about Henry Adams. But curiously, some of the most interesting shows have been about what you would call minor subjects who have a major interest. They're curious. People don't know about them in an ordinary way of knowing about things and as a result they learn something about, let's say, an eccentric or a person who once was famous and is now famous no more. Two examples I can think of. One was Annie Bezen. Annie Bezen wasn't completely unknown to a lot of people, but still, we brought it to your attention and your reaction indicated that this kind of person has an interest. And also Lady Mary Wartley -Modigil, who most of you didn't knew nothing about,

I'm sure, but we found out that she was a very interesting subject to work over. Now the other day I was, a medication to read a novel called Midchipman Easy. I hope many of you have read it, but I would doubt it. I had to do it as a duty and it ended up as a great pleasure. This is by Captain Frederick Marriott. And thinking about this novel, Midchipman Easy and about Frederick Marriott, who of course was a 19th century writer with a tremendous reputation in his day, there was a subject for a show, obviously, because the man who knows more about Mary than anybody in the world is right here in Chicago and by the happy coincidence, he's out at Illinois Institute of Technology. And by another happy coincidence, he has been sitting in this seat in the past, and I hope he could do it in the future, writing this show, Dr. Jules Zanger, Illinois Institute of Technology. I think Jules is a long introduction, but let's get going on, Captain Frederick Marriott. In the first place, when did he

live? Late 19th or early 19th century? Early 19th century. He was contemporary, although it seems impossible when you read his books, he was contemporary of Jane Austen. No. Jane Austen, well, an early child, Dick, and same period. He abridged the century, certainly, in his attitudes. He was an 18th century man in many ways, quite more akin to smaller. Yes, yes, yes, the tone of his novel. But he was an 19th century person. He died, he died about 4 ,8, 1848. 4 ,8, 1848. 4 ,8, 1848. Well, now what got you started off in marriage, just a desperation for a good subject for a thesis? It was a doctoral dissertation, as a matter of fact. But you were interested, obviously. Yeah, well, he was a very unusual man. He was an amazing sort of person. He took the writing very late in his life. He had been a sailor. He had been a apprentice as a child, and well, he had made a mitchip as a matter of fact. He came a relatively good English family, was sent to sea, and then piled up an extraordinary record. Yes, he rose to and finally ended up as a captain of her majesty, and this is quite a rank captain. Yes, it is. Of course, he had his own ship of the line.

Then of course, peacetime, after the end of the Napoleonic Wars, the end of the war of 1812, there was simply, he saw a no professional future for him, and he was a man with rather extravagant tastes. He liked living on the continent, he liked wine, he liked things, all the things that go with it. Music, yes. Music, yes. And he decided, quite simply, and we were a remarkable kind of independence of mine that this whole career of his naval captain was to be thrown over, there was no future. What started him in the writing? Oh, the sort of thing you get with Phenomore Cooper, you know, I can do it better. He did, and he proceeded to write a series of novels to a great degree based on his naval experiences, picker -ass, adventure stories, but they caught on, he was a fantastic success. What was his first really successful one that you had been thinking about? Well actually, there was a trio of novels, well, in addition to Mitchem and Easy itself, there was Peter Simple, there was Jacob

Faithful, and there was Jeff at the search of a father, these were the... It's curious group of titles, Peter Simple, Mitchem and Easy Jacob Faithful. Now, you notice, these are 18th century, there's a pure 18th century. And the wonderful thing about his attitudes is how remarkably 18th century they were when you compare them to a man like Dickens, for example, he possessed none of Dickens' sentimentality. And the amazing thing further is that they both shared, apparently, precisely the same popular audience. You had an audience which on one hand was weak over little now, and yet this is the same audience which apparently took without any difficulty, Marriott's scenes of... Well, it seems that even today we find extraordinarily bloodthirsty, little children thrown overboard because their nuisance is left to drown. Oh, that's in Mitchem and Easy, of course. It's talking more in the town. Oh, this is the Mediterranean. This is the... Oh, no, the other thing of Jacob Faithful. I'm Jacob Faithful, that's it. Brother Faw's overboard, and well, it can't be helped. He drowns, and this is it. And in

Easy, remember, they take this Italian, this lugger, which they rent, and the Italian who owns it, attempts to rob them in the night. They kill him in a pitched battle, and there is a child. The Italian's child is left on board. What shall we do with him? Splash. No, no. You can't imagine Dickens handling a child this way. You can do it today. Tommy Hamilton, in the Manning Coles series of novels, has the other... I was reading one the other night. He happens to kill... It was a villain. He killed. The villain was about to kill him, and he killed the villain. And calmly puts him in a barrel at concrete, and the man is rolled off to the river. He takes this in the most casual way. But he wasn't an eight -year -old villain. No, that's right. Well, let's get on a little here with Mary at the... You say he became really one of the leading literary figures of England. Certainly in the sense of popularity. Well, yes. He was always popular. This is a point here. When we take courses and our gift courses in the 19th century literature, we don't give courses in Mary at

all. He's only incidental. And yet, if you're going to be really historic, you've got to give him a larger place. He was tremendously important from... Well, in any kind of study of popular taste, he filled it from men this role. Anybody who pretends to know the 19th century literary scene has got to read it. And he did have... He influenced other writers, certainly, or if not influenced, and pressed certain other writers. But you might expect exclusively in the area of the interest in the sea. Conrad, for example, was taken by Mary its faithfulness to faithful reproduction of life. I don't know. Was there a Melville? You would know this. There was Melville. I'm sure he was. The details have never been worked out, but in reading, midship and easy, and reading faithful. And the King's own. King's own. I kept saying it. Of course, you think you're seeing spots in front of your eyes after a while. You're pursuing this, but I'm sure that Melville did. And he'll work out the details sometime. But

you made the statement before we started that he was the first literary lion to come to America and be lionized. Yeah, just about. There were other British... Of course, there were British travelers here from the beginning, some stayed, became Americans. The travel was, of course. But that long pattern of Englishmen and women coming here, and they're still coming. But he was, I think, the very first, as far as I can determine, the first literary lion, the man who had a tremendous reputation preceding him. And by all rights, he should have been welcomed here and should have had a magnificent triumph and tour. As a matter of fact, he was welcomed, wouldn't he? Well, for a very short period. They discovered very quickly that Frederick Mariette was a very untamed lion. He didn't at all like Americans. He made no bones about it. And Americans in turn very quickly decided that it didn't like him. In fact, in the period of his two years here, he... Well, he was threatened by a lynch mob once. Quite serious. This is upstate New York. It's across the border, after he fought in the Canadian rebellion.

You know what I mean? No, I don't. That's why. It's really wild affair. He was threatened with a lynch mob. He was burned in effigy all over the country, regularly his books, where they had great public bonfires of his books. And there is a contemporary account, which is magnificent. The mob in the middle of the square, piling up Mariette's books and Mariette standing at one side, watching with great amusement, you know, knowing very well that he's going to sell these all over again. And he didn't care. But he was a remarkable session here. He was, first of all, if the accounts were to be to believe an extraordinarily rude man, he was called a... Well, a crim dungeon. And he was named by one person, called him after one of his books, Snarly Owl, the dog theme. Oh, this guy. Yes. Well, that's an honorable tradition of ink. Fisting creatures, Dylan Thomas, nicer about his unniceness with the... He got himself involved in another man's wife. Yeah, that's him. In one of the best, most classically traditional ways, you know, the husband suspected

this and hit under the bed. Oh, no. Really? And it came out like a novel he had thrown away. Exactly, like a bad novel, but lots of fun. Like a good bite, like a good fice. But he was also a very dangerous man, Mariette. Physically, he was very brave, he was skilled in the use of weapons. And the amazing thing was that the husband finally was forced to make a public apology to say that he was drunk and misunderstood to what to do. He didn't want to do with Captain Mariette, which was probably just as well. But he was accused of insulting Henry Clay. Until finally Clayte had a right or a right of the paper saying that no, this did not occur. The Mariette was a perfect gentleman while he was with me. Over the years of this visit. 37 to 39. 37 to 39. It came right at the heart of the Great Depression of 37. You know, the landbubbles first. Yes, yes. And of course, he saw a great deal of the effects of this in America. And he had some fascinating scenes. Where did he leave record to this? Any of his books? No, in

the diary. In the diary. He published in 39, after he went back a diary, which he had written. A while here. And then scarcely retouched from the state of it. It's choppy, it's irregular, and so on. But it's a fascinating book. It's this book that I'm bringing out. You'll bring it out, though. Where's that book? In the anniversary. In the anniversary. In the anniversary. Which you bring out. Good. When's that be out? September, I think. Well, what is in that diary that the... Well, it's an account of... Mariette's two years here. And actually not as full two years. Does it have an impact? Is it an Bible? It's an extraordinarily vital book. It's a vital book. Well, for a number of reasons. First, it's a book which is very well written. A man, whatever else he had, was an excellent journalist. He was extraordinarily skilled. He had a very effective eye and ear. He saw for detail. And he was fascinated by American speech. And you actually have here kind of merging of a genre. A attempt to bring together traditional diary, but to incorporate novelistic techniques. In fact, when he was anticipating, I guess, really, was contemporary work corresponds.

So a contemporary reporting. Well, this wasn't the kind of bank for future novels then. I don't think so. No. If it was, it certainly wasn't used. No, I wouldn't do that. But he, for example, would frequently reproduce, would shift from the customary past tense of the diary into an immediate present. And describe what was happening at the time. Reproduce rather than normalizing speech to a straight narrative account. Reproduce speech, great passages of actual dialogue with Americans he met. How do you think this would be useful to linguists, to try to cover American speech of the period? I think to linguists, certainly to social historians. The book is also interesting because he was, as it's already been suggested, a very erasible character. And he was a violent Tory. And he hated all things. Democratic. He hated democracy. This is curious now, isn't it? Because you have his coming over in 37, 39. And yet, six years before, you had the great visitor to America. To Tocqueville. And his wonderfully perceptive... Oh, and you had something

else written here. You had Harriet Martinel coming just before he did, who took a very liberal position, of course, of proving all of the most things she saw. And a good deal of Harriet's book is, during the book, he snipes, a running battle with Martinel. Contradicts her on specific points. He's read her book, and he's talking about her book. Can you see? Very true of all those who came later. He had read the ones before, because they... Well, yeah. Everyone was going to do the authority of the Cont. You see. Now, Harriet maintained this. What he was doing. He came over without bias, which was nonsense. And he, which simply was clearly not true. And he admitted afterward, after the book had been published, that as far as he was concerned, it was a propaganda document. Not a false propaganda document. But a document that was designed to counteract these visions of democracy, that the English lower class was the subject, too, apparently. So you get, on one hand, a tremendous contempt for the democratic

processes. But this is coupled with a tremendous lack of understanding of the democratic world. He doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean, as a political observer, it's worthless. The book is worthless for the political observer. It's full of misapprehensions, and overstatements, and frequently, well, faced with anything like a real situation. He resorts, or something, that we'd like him to comment upon. He resorts to a very kind of glib humor. He'll pond about it. He'll slide away from it. However, there were certain things he was serious enough about. For example, the plight of a free Negro on the North. Now, he devotes quite a deal of attention to this. Precisely because it's part of his attack on democracy. Democracy maintains one thing, but actually it does something else. He talks about the situation of the American Indian. But again, this is part of the game. Part of the attack on the United States of America. He uses

it. That's interesting, because that has been done by others since. I think I have a feeling that you get a certain amount of that in Jean -Paul Sartre. And it seemed a little while when they came over here. Braggians, they are in their observations, and Braggians, they are in their perceptions of currents and defects and virtues. They come over with an animus, and even the brightest people cannot conceal or cannot control an animus, finally. Well, he, of course, made no attempt. No, this was no. No, there was no serious. In fact, to give you an example of how genuine this animus was and how effective it was, he, for example, was prohibited from going far the west than, well, then the upper reaches of the Missouri. Of the Mississippi Missouri, he went through Wisconsin. But he was prohibited from going further because he was actually inciting the Indians. I mean, it was a series like that. He was prohibited by the government by the Indian agent because he was caught in effect with the sue,

telling them things like, in case of a war, you'll, of course, remember the great white father over the sea who remembers you with great love and affection. And he was exploiting, of course, they're very real grievances with the United States. And this was fantastic. He wasn't the paid British agent. He was acting as a paid British agent. And he never thought of himself as anything else, but a paid British agent. During the French Canadian rebellion, he immediately, upon hearing of the war breaking out, in the North, immediately left his tour to join Colburn's forces and was, one of the, was present at the, the battles of Santa Stache and Benoit, where the rebellion was broken and where the rebels were, most of them were killed, were burned alive. And he immediately, and it's on record, that among the little things he brought home, among his souvenirs, in addition to the Indian belts and the headrests, were detailed plans of the Brooklyn Navy Art. Oh, inspired. Yes, this man, this was a very unusual literary life. Well, the, was he married in Korea? Yes, he said, he

was a married man. Married, married. Yes. Not very much married. He didn't see his great deal of his wife. He visited, I think, yearly, pretty much. How many children did they have? 11. A splendid man. He saw his son. He saw his son. Yes. Just enough. And then he took out again. He didn't live at home. Although his children adored him. Of course, he came home. He was a charming storyteller. And he was charming. He was an extraordinarily handsome man. He had truckloads of medals for life -saving. He was a great hero. He was a hero in the, in the Burma campaign, he was a hero. He was all of these things. He was handsome. He had a great reputation. And of course, he wasn't around all the time. And coming home as he did made him a very delightful figure. He died. And, I think, with Florence, his daughter rode a memoir of him about 25 years after his death. And it's just simply filled with tremendous love. And a need to defend the man's reputation. Now, you work among these married manuscripts I take. Well, they're not married.

Actual manuscripts are difficult to find. Are there any manuscripts to this diary, for instance? No. Well, there's no existing manuscript, but there is, however, is the Longman Green edition, the original edition, which he supervised. And so this is about as close to it as you can get. He did use this material later on for another book, which caused quite a stir of its own. Was it quite a letter writer? There are letters. There are letters, of course, letters to Dickens, which are fascinating, make strange letters. And there are a good back to letters. Well, why not a volume of letters? I'd select a carefully selected, the good ones. If they're, again, it would make a rather slim volume. Oh, I see. They're not that many. Not many, not many, not many, the good ones. They're all interesting, especially the Dickens letter, married Dickens letters are fascinating, because of what they reflect about these two men very cool. Carefully gauging the literary market. There are a couple of old pro's. I mean, no question. Yes. They were professional. So there was a good deal. His career ended sort of badly. And under a cloud, which is unfortunate. He did a book. His last book

was called The Adventures of Monsieur Violet. Monsieur Violet. Monsieur Violet was supposed to be. Monsieur Violet. Violet. Except it was pure Violet, you know. It was English. It was pronounced as Violet, yes. And the book was ostensibly married, simply reproducing the account of a young man who had been raised among the Indians and grew up to lead them a white. He was white, you see. A white man who grew up among the Indians became a battle chief and leader. And the... Simon Gurty. Yeah, except this was a good guy. Good guy, not an evil one. And he... And wonderful adventures of describing this man's experience is on the Santa Fe trail, up and down on the Texas expedition of the Mexico, around Sonora. The book is not a good book. He was written the old, he was ill at this point when he put it together. It's not a very exciting book. It's not a very good book. But because it sounds like good material. Well, that's the trouble.

The material was extraordinarily good, because no sooner the book had the press than at least a half a dozen people discovered that great chunks of the book were very good. They were taken from them. Great pieces of the book are obviously plagiarized. We're taken from a tremendous variety of sources. Greg's... Greg on the Santa Fe trail, a Captain Scott, just a widespread. The book is simply a pastiche. And Mary had died before he could defend himself against these charges. It was never known what happened. How would you think his defense would have been? Well, there is a defense. And it's a very interesting defense. There was a defense made. And it went like this. Mary had daughter maintained, as was maintained in the preface of the book, that Mary had here was not the author, but was merely recording the adventures of a man who gave them these stories, a house guest, who was a house guest, down at Langham, where Mary's family place was. And this story was poo -pooed for years. You know, this is this mythical house guest, who used to lasso the

children and people. And it was much too convenient. Well, I get interested in it. And there was such a man. It's amazing. There really was such a man. It doesn't really help us much, though. We know there was such a man, who was a great, who was a conference man, and swindler, and who later became involved in a number of European swindles. This fellow actually stayed with Mary. And actually, apparently, gave Mary at the material. Now, this was simply suggest that the man himself was the plagiarist. But, and again... This is useful. Using a plagiarist. This is a plagiarism, the second... In other words, it doesn't really take the... And what a petty... I mean, I don't mind it. You don't have this plagiarism as such. If he had really used the materials, as he could have been riding the way he could have... Wasn't it all home? I mean, into a really... Not only did he... Was it undigested? But I mean... I mean, you find karma for karma, so am I. So am I. It's verbatim. It's verbatim. It's hard

to think he wasn't in on us. Well... There's a possibility. There's no way of really understanding how a married would have all these sources in his possession. This other young man... Could have had them in preparation working up a role. However, if he then... We can possibly... Let's say he wrote them out and gave them to marry it. But, marry it didn't rewrite them then. And marry it simply lifted them whole... And put his name under the business. Which creates... It's another kind of plagiarism, but plagiarism nevertheless. He was very old... No, he was not very old. He was very ill. He was ill. He had great many expenses. He lived well at all times. And this was somehow kind of a last desperate attempt to regain something of the glory, perhaps certainly something of the money. Are any descendants of his around now? Must be eleven children. Well, there are... He had two sons,

one who one died at sea. The other wrote a book, a travel book about life in California. And the minds of Colorado. A young married. The daughter married... Well, a number of them. Lots of daughters. I don't really know if there are any at this point still around. I hope not. They may object to some of the things I've been saying. One of the daughters was a tutor of Annie Besanth. A tutor? Yes. And the tutor of Annie Besanth. And having a much more liberal attitude, Annie Besan grew up with a liberalism from having this governance. And she went to France. And Florence, I think, was Florence? Was it Florence herself? Yes, Florence herself. Oh, Florence is the girl who later did the one biography. The one biography of married. By more of my contemporary, the life and letters. Brothers say this is full of all kinds of bias and full of fantastic errors. Well, Married was famous among the printers of his own time for his very bad hand. This was the day, of course, when an author wrote. There was no typewriter. He wrote out his material. He was famous for his tiny and illegible hand.

And she couldn't cope with it because I know the tremendous angle I get into with her letters, which I discovered. She must date certain letters by a full year. And you say, well, you know, you know, you should be here. But suddenly, it's a year later. It's quite confused. And this gave me more trouble, I think, trying to trace him here in America. And anything I encountered. Well, now you've done this edition, which is coming out this fall of the diary to America. Why don't you go ahead and push through to the volume that's obviously needed a really first -rate biography? It would be fun. There are a couple of biographies. No doubt. No doubt. The first -rate. There's one, there's a naval biography, of course, at this point of view. And there is a language of letters here. It's a very old one. Well, that would be a mirror. It would be fun to do. Because you know the American side so well. The American... But this is... And that's only part of it. The small part. And so many of the things. But then you would have to go to England to work for a while. That would be... That would be nice. I like that. Yes. I hope you'll do that.

What's his characteristic as a novelist? Fast action. Tremendous action. Very little characterization. It moves. It bounces. All right. Yes, it bounces. The story's swing. Yes. Yes. It really... They're not fine novels. But they're extremely... The three characters are stereotyped from small at these, suppose, or just... No, it's not. It's stereotyped from that. It's stereotyped. Well, the honest tar. Yes. Oh, yes, yes. Dibden. Charles Dibden's song. The... And he goes further, though. His books are not merely details. For example, read from a certain point of view, his most famous book, Easy, Machiappman Easy, is an attack on socialism on reform. And an upholding of the old conventions, the old traditions. He's, after all, a navy man. And... Explain why that term name easy, you mentioned it easy. Mr. Machiappman Easy takes the easy

way. He is a leveler, at least at the beginning of the book. Well, at the beginning, about first... 100 pages of the funniest, one of the funniest books I've read in a long time. He pats the captain on the bag. He asks the first officer to tea, and this kind of thing. It doesn't... And the whole book of this... And Flomax is... And Flomax is... And Flomax is... By this approach. I don't know what to do with it. He's an idiot. He argues really reasonably. He's always... In fact, the book is a parody on modern education in its period. He is brought up to be scientific. He is reasonable. You've got the same sort of thing, Tom Jones. One image of it. But what you were saying, while back, is really a point. And he was one of the early group of the mass culture feeders. Certainly that. He really... He pegged at beautiful things. He found it. Before... Before... What's his name? Before the Alger Sartre thing. Before the... I'm a re -correlli. You know, I'm a re -correlli and all that. He was really doing it

with me. Well, the... Are any of his books in print today? There I was surprised to see and delighted to see. In one of the paperback series, I married, Mitch at Manaisy. His children's book is still a parent print. This is interesting. He gets in lovely books for children. He likes to write for children. Well... We have to stop. And I come back again when you do the biography. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Great pleasure. I'm Frederick Marriott.