Profile; Interview with Louise Diamond; Interview with Ben Cohen; Interview with Ernest Kinot

So. Here in Vermont She's remembered as Louise Linder or Louise son feather. Today in Washington D.C. and internationally She's known as Dr. Louise diamond Dr. Diamond is a deeply spiritual yet practical woman with a powerful vision. She calls her work peace building in her early career as a trainer and cycle therapist in Vermont. The peace building was at an individual level. After moving to Washington D.C. to care for Ariel ailing parents Dr. Diamond applied her knowledge and training on a global level. She founded peace works of peace education and consulting organization then co-founded the Institute for multi-track diplomacy. It was groundbreaking work that took her to some of the most conflicted regions of the world Cyprus Israel Palestine Liberia Bosnia Pakistan and others. Dr. Diamond has trained thousands in conflict resolution and innovative peace work. She's written three books one on multi-track diplomacy another a moving account of her peace work called The Courage for peace and most

recently the peace book. These times of uncertainty and conflict have placed ever greater demands on her time and energy. So I especially think Dr. Louise diamond for being here today. Thank you Fran it's a pleasure. Thank you. You had a near death experience in the battle with breast cancer when you were very young in your late 20s. How did that change your life profoundly and completely and from the inside out. Yeah. I had two rounds of breast cancer in the late 70s in the early 70s actually. And what it brought to my life was an awareness that. I have an opportunity to choose life in every moment regardless of how many moments I might have to live. And so I decided to choose to live as fully as possible and to fill each moment with love with peace with joy and with life. And that really set my feet on a whole different path.

It's very powerful a lot of people say they want to do this but aren't able to do it as as utterly as you have been able to. Well it's actually a fairly common experience for people who've had a near-death experience and it's happening now for hundreds of people if not more who are in the World Trade Center and got out. I've been hearing stories already of people who made their way down those stairs couldn't believe that they were still alive. One man in particular stumbled out of the World Trade Center as it was collapsing and some stranger took him in and looked him in the eye and said You've got a second chance at life don't waste it. And that's really what happened for me. You took your knowledge of personal psychology and applied it to issues of global conflict to develop a really remarkable model that you coined. I think you coined as multi-track diplomacy with former Ambassador John McDonald. It's a model that you and now the institution

the institute that you founded using the most conflicted areas of the world. What is the philosophy behind that model. Well you know it's a fancy word multi-track diplomacy but it's a very very simple concept it's really a systems approach to peace building and it simply means that all of us are peace builders no matter what sector of society we might help from in the past people have fought the peacemakers are the diplomats the formal appointed political representatives of nation states. They're the ones who make the peace and in the 80s and a little bit earlier people in that world started saying well wait a minute there are some informal processes that are useful and maybe even more useful than the formal process season so something grew up called Track to diplomacy. And. When I came into that field which was still quite young in the. Late 80s or early 90s I said well let's expand it and let's think of multi-track many many pathways

to peace building so that individual citizens through all kinds of program Sister Cities and and witness programs and a car spot pen pal programs and non-governmental organizations. The education system the business community the religious institutions the the media even the philanthropy community they all have a role to play in peace building. And so let's the philosophy behind it is let's. Honor and encourage all of those contributions because only when they're working together can we get really viable and sustainable peace systems. There isn't enough just to sign a treaty. So your work is getting those organizations to start talking to each other at Euro sides of a conflict there and empowering the people in those different sectors. So for instance the business community in India and Pakistan we've done some some work there. This is not a community that thinks of itself as having a role to play. And yet when we brought

it to their attention they start saying all well yes maybe sell. What can we do. And. The. Grassroots people just private citizens from all walks of life in Cyprus. There are now thousands and thousands of them engaged in by communal work across the line between then the north side and the south side the Turkish side and the Greek side. And this. And is that beginning to work I mean do. Oh yeah yeah yeah. It's really happening. Another one of the trucks that I'm interested in this public opinion and communications. Yes it's a very powerful area the media about which you also have many reservations that you articulate in a in a courage for peace. How does the media lead to or in action and are left which is one of the points you bring up. Well I think we tend to get hypnotized by. The images the words I know for instance let's just take the World Trade Center. Attack a few

weeks ago. How many of us saw that image over and over and it's playing over and over again in our minds of the plane hitting the building and the people running out covered with ash those are very very poignant powerful images. And in a positive sense they mobilize us and they say well something important is happening here and and I need to get involved and engage with this on a larger scale the media can also kind of put us to sleep week because we get. So used to seeing images of violence I'm not good with remembering figures but there's some figure that's quite just astronomical like children up to the age of 15 see something like I don't know. Twenty five thousand images of violence in a year I mean. So you get used to it and you say no big deal. But it is a big deal. One of the most interesting stories I read about you was you actually when you decided to do this piece work and take it global. That you forced yourself

to watch movies about war to read about war that was very difficult. Yes. Tell us about that process because I thought that was fascinating. Well when I realized I was going to be going to some of the war torn places around the world and I also realized that for myself I had an aversion to violence. I thought how can I be effective there when you have to talk to people who are walking in the streets with guns or who are victims of bombings and shellings and you know violence is a real part of their lives and if I'm saying I don't want to hear about it how can I be present for them so I did a process of socialization where I gradually introduced myself to war movies war novels war memoirs a lot from the Vietnam era but also Civil War and World War Two and one. And I actually went quite far with it I got to the place where I could sit through a whole war movie and with interest. And then I even got a little farther

and I got to the place where I could identify with what I could call blood lust where the power of killing someone you could feel in people's description how it would be an adrenaline rush. And once I recognized that. That's in all of us I was able to really have compassion for people who get caught in that. And then I knew I could do that work because I've had to work with soldiers on. Well let's talk about your work on the front lines of conflict. What gives you the energy to face the anger of the senseless war islands that is going on and some of these areas. Well I like to say that I kind of plug right into the universe I mean I have some very deep spiritual training. From my teacher the venerable Donny Wahoo. And. I have been trained to. Kind of center

home if you will it's a word I used to be present to the piece that is alive within each of us and to feel and know and experience that is my home base and then to make contact with that element in every person I meet. There must be some difficult moments though yeah. As if I didn't like on it oh yeah what your saying and how horrible that is. What have been some of the more difficult where it was hard to find even that piece with clearly so many people recognizing you and can change the whole arena around you. But what what is something that comes to mind as one of your most difficult moments. Well I know I had a difficult moment in the Middle East about a dozen years ago during the first intifada when I was in a. Small shop in Bethlehem and there were some there was some activity in the streets kids throwing stones soldiers chasing them and.

Soldiers came into the shop or to the doorway where I was and grabbed a young man who had been around me and hauled him off to a detention center and everyone was clamoring in the streets that this wasn't fair and kind of looked to me. When I was a foreigner. Also Jewish so maybe I could have some influence or do something right. So OK. So I went up to follow the soldiers and went into the detention compound right to the wire chain link fence went right up to the fence and there are soldiers with guns pointed at me and the crowd behind me and I said you know I'm I'm asking you to release this young man. I know that he didn't do anything because he was there with me I saw him there and he's illegally detained and inappropriately detained to please release him and. And I remember the soldier said you know after many harsh words something like. This isn't any of your business. What business is of is this of yours. And I

said I'm a human being and this is human business. And then the man was released. That was hard because I really didn't know if it was a delicate situation I had or. Angry crowd at my back and armed soldiers at my front. And I. I wasn't sure how I was going to go. That is a story of the courage for peace. How do you feel about the Israel Palestine conflict now it's such a central piece of everything that seems to be going on now. Well I can respond to that on many levels at the human level. I'm just heartbroken and my heart is really with the people there on both sides and particularly with the peace builders there because both communities have had dozens and dozens and dozens of human beings peace builders who have put their lives on the line put their reputation on the line over and over again for years and years working to bring people together to increase understanding to work for each other's rights

really gone a long way in building that in knitting that human infrastructure that's so important to to give life and meaning to any peace treaty that's signed. And when the second intifada started that all went down the drain. People are quite desolate there so at the human level. There's that at the political level. I'd have to say that. We have an opportunity right now to see if we are prepared to listen and to hear how. That conflict is rippling out around the world and how the Muslim world in particular views that conflict that's not just propaganda. You know it's real the Muslim world is very very concerned about their holy sites in Jerusalem. You do not want to see those holy sites under Israeli sovereignty and and the plight of the Palestinian people. So what do you see as the solution listening.

Right now. Well right now we really need to I think America and the Western world needs deeply to listen to the Muslim world to the Arabic world to. Other parts of the world that we. Have in the past. Yeah. Kind of not paid as much and not paid as much attention to given as much honor and dignity as it is there. You're right that pain is a motivation for people to seek peace. Yes in your peace book of course published before September 11th you still speak of a number of efforts that would be necessary in order to achieve peace. Here are some of them. Nations working together to control a common enemy. Visible expressions of patriotism increased attendance at religious services. The entertainment industry rethinking its attitude towards violence. We hope many of these have resulted since the attacks and the

retaliatory response could these terrible tragedies actually help cause the cause of peace. I think there's an and mazing opportunity right now and I have some feedback from the universe on this. I have this new book out The Peace book a hundred and eight simple ways to create a more peaceful world. And it's really a how to action book. Written well before September 11th to help people take some personal responsibility and do some simple action to build a culture of peace not just to build peace but to build a culture of peace to really embed in the norms of our society that this is the way we live. Laila it's right now is really key cornerstone of our. Popular culture and the some of the assumptions we make and I think that there's a whole movement happening to replace that with peace so the book came out. On June 1st. And it's not a book that can be bought in any

bookstore. It's a book that. People are sponsoring and giving away as a gift through their networks. So from June 1st to September 10th we distributed 5000 books through individual grassroots networking sponsorship. But from June 11 I'm sorry from September 11 for the next three weeks three thousand bucks. Well yeah. My phone hasn't stopped ringing. Yeah. So people are. Seeing the moment here as an open moment to say let's see what we can learn about how we can make a difference in this world how can we can prevent what happened on September 11th and there are a lot of things that track one the government is doing but what can we as individuals do. Again from a multitrack perspective what can we do to change the climate. In our communities because some of the some of the same divisions ways that we think about each other ways that we talk to each other. The polarization Language

us versus them and right versus wrong and good versus evil that's in our national dialogue too it's in our community life too. It's in our families. Well one thing I love about this in most of your writing is it's got passion and heart but it's also very practical. Step by step things. Who exactly is it intended for it seems that the language suggests a middle class reader. Did you have an attention of who this was going to first in that way is is is the middle class America where this book belongs right now or what is your intention there. I try. I don't limit it I mean I I come from a middle class background so that probably affects how I write. I see this book as suitable for anyone who's interested in. Replacing a culture of violence with a culture of peace. Now when I wrote the book I created a new business as well called Peace tech. To get that the human technologies the tools that we need for building peace building a culture of peace into the hands of people everywhere. And

so I started doing things that business people do which I had never done before like writing a business plan. And in the business plan there's a whole section that says Who is your market for this product. So I had to think well who is the market for the product. And I found that there is has been identified a sector of society in America variously called the Bobos Aloha us or the Cultural Creatives now Bobo's means a combination of borzois and Bohemian of the words people from values from the 60s who have grown up and gone into the mainstream world but they have kept the values of the 60s. And this book actually names Burlington Vermont by the way is the capital of about oh good. So what was it like. As one of many cities that exemplifies that so. Aloha Ximenes lifestyles of health and sustainability so people who are interested in yoga meditation healthy living healthy eating vitamins alternative health

all. There are no firm estimates. I mean there are no firm figures but there are estimates that this niche you could call this group of people in the United States numbers up to 40 million people. Wow. Yeah. And it's a good place to start. And I'm hoping that see this book in the hands of three million people by giving it away because three million is one percent of the U.S. population and that can create a critical mass shift in thinking. This was also the book was an effort as part of the new United Nations decade of peace and nonviolence for children. How are children doing. Oh Fran it would break your heart. Children of course are the first victim of any war. And again I wish I could remember numbers but the numbers are staggering and it would just bring tears to your eyes to realize how many children around the world are suffering the direct effects of war and the indirect effects of violence. And in our own country as well

as violence in the home violence in the streets. And also there are. Hundreds of thousands of child soldiers around the world young children. Who are given drugs and alcohol and guns and told you're now part of our army and the ways they are negotiated would. There are almost unspeakable. And it's not OK for us in America to say oh isn't that sad and that's all over there to happening in the United States in our cities in our gangs young children are doing the same thing. And there isn't Will that affect Actually the whole world on this for generations for generations. There are some e-collar so they have the world that the whole generations are so damaged. Well that's certainly a place to start. Another thing in the courage for peace that you wrote is how a divided society on many levels it feeds the structural violence. Yes that undermines our moral integrity. What do you mean by structural violence.

Well this is a very big subject. We could talk for instance about structural racism as a form of structural violence that racism is embedded in some of the basic assumptions and structures of society and so much so that it's become invisible and people in the privileged sectors of society don't notice it but people African-Americans notice it very much so for instance the access to education access to housing the access to job advancement. It's different for people of color than it is for white people has been historically and continues to be or or or even now and also again in your piece book you wrote a recent survey in which 90 percent of the respondents associated the word terrorist with Arabs and this was before all this was a bombing dozen years ago. Certainly we're likely worse now. What can we do about our demonize ation of certain groups much less our

stereotyping. I really I gave a keynote address for an Earth Charter day about a week ago and. I gave some here some things you can do. This was after September 11th but before we started bombing Afghanistan. And one of the things I suggested for people on an individual basis is to go on a fast of polarizing language. Polarizing language is a language that's that says Us and them either or who. Right and wrong good and bad we're good they're evil. Any any language at all that sets up that disparity because as soon as you polarize in that way you have automatically diminished the other race yourself in relation to them and set up the stage for seeing them as less than human. And once you see them as less than human you can justify all kinds of things you can justify all kinds of violence. So I'm suggesting people not only pay attention to their own language for

how it creeps in but also. To the language that other people use including our leaders and call them on it. We certainly do seem to have a predilection towards that. You also talk about how there's a hope for an evolution from the dominance based culture. Yes to something that's more partnership. Yes. Do you still have. Hope for that. Oh I have great hope for that. I think that's really the evolutionary moment of humanity. I think that's where we are we where looking at. Ourselves as a global family more and more and we are realizing that. It doesn't work anymore the structures we have built that pit one group against another or say one is better than and more worthy than another. It doesn't work and we're seeing the direct results of it right now. Because groups who have been let down bottom group are saying that that doesn't work for us. We're going to fight back. And we're realizing that in our human family we have two simultaneous

phenomena going on. One is we are different. There are many differences. And the other is we really only are one family. You know when there's a unity principle here as well and. The human family is at that moment where has to decide are we going to continue to give energy to the separation of the different groups or to find ways to honor the unity. And then it's oh it's a survival question. It is it's tricky even. I was thinking when I heard about the bombing there was almost a multitrack war because it's humanitarian. There is a clear interest in humanitarian efforts which I've never heard before. Yes this is very new. Where we're running out of time it's wonderful to be with you I just want to remind people of peace tech and you can find it. Peace tech dot com my piece hyphen tech Plus tough life and tech dot com and your wonderful book The Courage for peace which I enjoyed so much.

One is very practical step by step wonderful to actually have at your bedside when those unpeaceful moment come. But also the courage for peace. A wonderful very heartfelt book. The waste I mean it's been great to have you here. Hopefully you will find peace in our individual worlds as well as the world as a whole soon. Thank you so much for you for having presence here and your work. And thank you for being with us on profile. Throughout his 20s Ben Cohen was hardly a prospect for success. He failed to

graduate from a number of colleges he attended and he worked in a myriad of odd jobs including night mopper ice cream man Pinkerton guard cab driver short order cook garbage man and craft instructor. But as we all know once he found his calling with seventh grade buddy Jerry Greenfield to make and sell his favorite treat. There was no looking back in 1978 Ben Jerry's homemade was born in a renovated gas station in Burlington. And a decade later Ben and Jerry were honored at the Reagan White House as business persons of the year under stockholder pressure. Gerry and Ben sold their company last year to international food giant Unilever for three hundred twenty six million dollars. Ben Cohen may not run his famous company anymore but he continues to pursue the group goals that they held dear from the beginning. To have fun to make a living and to find new ways for businesses to support social causes. Thanks for taking the time man. I like to talk about those original goals that you had first as

phenomenally successful as you have been and all the fun that you've had along the way there certainly have been some setbacks but are you still having fun. Yeah yeah. So the phone changes over the years. Does it mean something different now how is it how's it changed. You know I mean it's no longer the phone that they can I scream and you know scooping ice cream and coming up with new flavors and meeting people and making friends across the counter. You know the fun though is. It's finding new ways of continuing the process of using business as a force for progressive social change. And I think also that you know Jerry and I are you know having more fun actually playing not related to the business. Real pleasure real pleasure. Good for you. The making money goal certainly came to fruition

but I've never felt that you were comfortable in the multimillionaire role and I believe it was even just nearly a decade ago that you sold your house and you moved in the town and sold your Saab and got a pickup truck and started eating rice and beans. Now you know don't believe everything you read. Did you ever hear about exaggeration. OK that was Forbes magazine I think it was Magazine. Don't read everything else you believe in no magazine OK. But did you ever have kind of like a crisis of conscience or a lifestyle. Considering I mean you are not the typical multimillionaire. No I don't think I had a crisis of conscience I think that my conscience and actions pretty much been consistent OK. Certainly the last main goal giving back to the community seems to be your life's passion and in many ways it was that passion that fueled the Ben and Jerrys

skyrocketing success by example. And as one of the founders of businesses for social responsibility it seems that you really created a new paradigm for how businesses work and function. How is that movement going now. I think it's making pretty good headway. You know there's there's a lot of forces that are working against it. You know I'd say the you know the the large multinational corporations. You know I don't tend to see themselves as forces for progressive social change. But you know I think more and more of the smaller businesses and more and more people that are now getting into business. And more and more consumers are starting to realize that what they've been told all along that it's

not possible for business to work to alleviate social problems. And to make money. It's not true. Bed you know the the bill of goods goods that we've been sold over the years is that you know if business needs to be profitable in order to be profitable it cannot concern itself with social problems and it can't use its resources to attack those problems and that we should just be happy that they give us jobs. And I think that what Ben and Jerrys proved is that. That's not so. It's not true. It's it's a lie. You know you actually wrote a book almost a manual on on how to do what it's called double dip and that is really it's about values lead to companies. Could you define that term.

Yeah. You know I mean values lead is shorthand and you know the reality is that every entity has values. What we're talking about is a particular kind of values we're talking about progressive social values and that there are a bunch of companies. Are led by those progressive social values and the the key in that phrase values lead business is not particularly valued is the key word is lead. You know so many businesses so think that you know they can be socially responsible by running their business in an on socially responsible way and then giving away some money at the end of the year. Or. And what we're trying to say with the term values lead business is that the values the progressive social values need to lead the

business. And so at the very beginning of business and at the very tops of the corporations when they deal with mission statements and when they deal with long term strategic plans it's those progressive social values that need to lead that process so that it's not a deal where. You know save the company who made this table you know buys wood that's grown in a unsustainable way useful uses finishes that are toxic treats its workers poorly sources stuff in developing nations where people are paid virtually nothing and then at the end of the year says you know we're socially responsible because you know we give some money away and we support this charity and that charity and we have this pilot project that's you

know working on something good. But the idea is to integrate those progressive social values into the day to day business activities and integrated into. Decisions about what direction a business is going to go into. So copycat companies of yours that just have kind of a marketing thing that says we're socially responsible isn't doing it because it's not ingrained in. Yeah I mean probably one of the best examples is of that sort of thing is these these ads that the cigarette companies are putting out spending millions huge dollars you know 10 million dollars hundreds of millions of dollars I mean I don't know what the heck you know their ad budgets are but I guarantee you it's in that range. And essentially saying hey look at us look at what great guys we are. You know we gave this employee

some time off so he could volunteer at a food bank. I mean it's wonderful to volunteer at food banks. And and I applaud philanthropy. I believe in philanthropy. But to say that. We should support a company that's producing a product that kills people because on the side they're throwing a few crumbs somewhere. It doesn't wash with me. Is is this what you're getting at it in double dip you have a chapter on the spiritual aspect of business and most people would not apply spirit to business you know business has no soul etc.. What is important about the spiritual aspect of business. Well what's important about the spiritual aspect of business is the same thing that's important about the spiritual aspect of life. I mean the reality is that there is a spiritual dimension to life. Most people believe

that. Most people you know see themselves as religious to some extent or another or believe in a god or a higher being or a larger power or something. It's that spiritual dimension that most people take as a matter of course on their own. That somehow when they get when individuals get together and organize themselves in the form of a business then the ground rules are. As soon as you walk in the doors of the business there is no such thing as a spiritual dimension to our lives. Well what we're saying is that that's not true that doesn't make sense. And you know as far as I can tell the basic spiritual law is is that as you give you receive as you help others your help didn't return.

And business does not believe in that spiritual law. Essentially Ben injuries did. Yes. And we were doing things to help the community not we weren't really doing it to some screen. The irony is that it did so I was put in community Products Inc. Certainly tried work to embody all of those qualities that with the rain forest not company. Originally you were a baby and the intention of having a company that could give even more than Ben and Jerrys because it had fewer stockholders. You could kind of do what you wanted. It certainly was indeed values lead and yet it only lasted about seven or eight years was kind of riddled with a number of different problems and eventually went bankrupt. Some say due to your lack of interest in near the end I'm sure that there are many rumors and things that were written that were sure untrue then

as well. What what do you take away from the experience of the company. Well I actually think that during the time that community products existed it was quite successful. I mean there's no doubt that there came a point where it was no longer successful no longer profitable and it went out of business and that certainly was not part of the plan. But the community products the company that made Rainforest Crunch was set up to help to help to keep the rain forest alive. Providing a market by expanding the market for sustainably harvested rain forest products a study had been done

by a bunch of ethno botanists who discovered that the that the medicinal herbs and the plant dyes plant based dies and the fruits of the nuts that grow naturally in the rain forest. If they were sustainably harvested would make the rainforest more profitable than cutting it down and turning it into cattle right here. So community products was part of an effort to expand the market for rain forest products but to get what we were using was Brazil nuts. The interesting thing about Brazil nuts is that they've never been successfully cultivated so that any Brazil nut you ever buy has been grown in the wild in a rain forest harvested by people who live in grain farmers.

So everything's right about this company. But it still didn't work out. Well you know I mean it was quite profitable for several years. You know it bought tons and tons of Brazil nuts and sold them generated. You know a significant amount of money for nonprofit organizations but the company went out of business essentially because expenses grew. And sales declined. And you know we were in a race to cut expenses and increase sales and we lost this problem. Well I mean which is another you know good point to understand that you know being socially responsible and giving back you know certainly helps but it doesn't

make up for you know base it doesn't overcome basic business problems. I mean you know you you know you still got to do all the accounting right you got to do the hiring right. You've got to you've got to do it all right. Moving into more current projects a recent passion has been the business leaders for Sensible Priorities whose mission is to create awareness and legislation to redirect funds from the Pentagon and military spending into education and you've assembled it's an amazing assembly of business leaders and military personnel admirals to support this cause over in light of recent events the terrorist attacks. Is that taking a back seat or changing its message or is it just as vibrant as it always has been. Well we were we recently thrown for a loop. I mean as everybody was but particularly this organization whose focus

had been getting more money into basic human needs particularly programs benefiting low income children like headstart health care at no additional taxpayer expense by transferring unneeded funds out of the Pentagon. Time of the you know since the events of 9/11 you know the cause for increased Pentagon spending are you know coming out of the woodwork. And you know and I need to be really clear here is that I have tremendous support for the men and women that are on the front lines you know doing the fighting and sacrificing themselves and their lives for us. And our issue has never been with the men and women on the front lines. Our issue has been with Congress. In terms of its

continuation to foreign and Cold War era weapon systems that were designed to defeat the former Soviet Union. None of which will ever help us one iota in terms of dealing with the threat that's so obvious to us now of terrorism. But it's certainly not a not a great environment for talking about reducing Pentagon spending I think we've talked about is holding the line on Pentagon spending because really we along with Larry Korb the former assistant secretary of defense under Reagan and the rest of our military advisors have identified about 50 billion dollars worth of Pentagon expenses per year that are no longer necessary because they're all designed to fight another superpower and there isn't another one anymore. And we're saying that we could redirect that

money toward countering the terrorist threat. You're kind of looking more than enough at the military as a business. Is it is it doing what it needs to do now is businesses need to see what their customer base is at that. That's exactly right and as we all know you know bureaucracies. You know the and especially big bureaucracies the bigger the bureaucracy is the harder it is to get that bureaucracy to change and respond to new developments. And you know the Pentagon happens to be the biggest bureaucracy in the world. It is the one that is most difficult. To change that's going to be a long haul for you and the people that work with you you travel all over the world talking about this. And and also I'm search show the socially responsible businesses. What's it like to be Ben Cohen I mean how do you deal with the weight of responsibility of being Ben Carson

and how do you how do you deal with the stress of that or is it stressful. You know it's a life you know. How do you deal with the weight of Ben Cohen Well I've been trying to reduce the weight of Ben Cohen Jerry and I have been working out at the health club. We were there five days this week and indeed the weight of Ben Carson has been reduced to 20 some odd pounds. That's mine the Sony. But I'm continuing to reduce the weight of Ben Cohen and that's how I plan on dealing with his weight. OK. Now you had heart bypass surgery and did less than a year ago. How are you doing. And did that surgery you know what it would be a wake up call for a lot but it sounds like it changed some aspects of your life. Did it did it fundamentally change you in any way. Well there were a lot of things that happened all at once. You know I turned 50. I had a hard surgery.

The business got sold. So you know I certainly changed my lifestyle quite a bit. I don't eat the same foods anymore I'm sorry to say that you won't see me at Al's French fries anymore. And you know I'm exercising a lot more and I'm working less. I'm. You know I'm working at a slower pace and it's darn nice I like it. Right. Now up to the most current events sure. They just keep flowing out of here with you it seems. You a soap company now. Tell us about that your venture capital fund that came through. Well you know we should be careful when we talk about me. I mean it's never just me. I mean I'm I'm working with a bunch of great people and I have over the years and. I've never owned any of these things

on my own. There have always been partners that I've worked with and you know been a juror's was publicly held I'd I own a very small piece of it. Toward the end. So in terms of the new ventures there are two social venture capital funds that I set up when Ben and Jerry's got sold. One of them was actually financed by you know LIBOR they put in five million dollars to set up this fund that I would run. And another one was set up by myself I put in the money from the sale of the company. So one of them is based here in Vermont. It's called the barter hard rock fund. It's named after a chicken. It's run by Chuck Lacy who's one of the former presidents of Ben and Jerry's and that company has bought

Sun Earth which is a company that makes all natural nontoxic soaps and laundry detergent spray cleaner dishwashing liquid. It's located in a low income area of Philadelphia. Chuck was able to structure the financing in such a way that 80 percent of that company is now owned by its employees and nonprofit organizations that are working to improve life in inner cities. So we bought that company and were starting to market do some advertising and marketing of the products starting off in Boston cos it already had some distribution there. You can find it in Vermont Shaws supermarkets you have to look really hard and see their way up there way down below they don't give us a prime

location where the little little little guy but he cleans just as well as tide or whiskey or 4 or 9 or whatever. Well you've certainly been a little guy before and you have some of the wackiest marketing ideas ever to come come out from how well below is to billboards that say we want to keep our customers alive and licking around nuclear waste I think or something. What what are you going to do for this company I mean you're you're the marketing genius as far as I'm concerned. So anyway any ideas for this company. Well Gerry and I talked with some consumers of sun and earth some of the people who wrote letters and saying how much they love the stuff on the phone and we made some radio ads out of them we were working on having a wash Mobi or drive around the streets of Boston which was going to be a giant washing machine with a

giant you know basket of laundry tagging behind it with the laundry go flying out and a bunch of bubbles coming out of the top. But somehow you know it's easy to think about than it is to execute and then we didn't execute that one but we are working on a large inflatable costumes that we're looking to get some dancers to wear and kind of dance and bop around Boston looking like these containers of these products and giving away free samples and blowing bubbles. You know I mean you know the nice thing about ice cream is that it tasted so good I guess and I just you know the nicest thing we can figure out about soap is that you can make bubbles out of it. Oh well that that is a good one. Just in about 20 seconds your dream for the future and your daughter. Do you have a vision of that or. Or even just a what's next for you. Will my daughter Aretha is planning on running for

president in 2028. So I'm supporting that campaign and I guess we're kicking it off to that part of it. Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us today Ben and good luck in all your ventures. You bet. Thank you for being with us. Ernest Canoa is one of TV's most prolific and the claimed writers. He started out

writing radio dramas and switched to television in its infancy. His perspective on this ubiquitous medium is both broad and deep. Stay with us for a conversation with Ernest Conaway. Renowned for exceptional craftsmanship in dramatizing social and historic issues. Ernest Cano I has had a career spanning 50 nonstop years. He began his career writing radio plays including the precursor of Star Trek and adaptations of Great Expectations and Moby Dick in the 50s he wrote screenplays for a live television drama programs like Studio 1 and Playhouse 90 in the 60s he wrote for the defender's doctor killed there and Route 66 in the 70s he began to write made for TV movies that included the president's plane is missing. Victory at Entebbe and the mini series that changed American television roots. In the 80s and 90s he continued to write feature length works many based on historic events for

people including Skokie Murray Chernobyl. The final warning and Lincoln Mr. Cano has received three Emmys for his work several Writers Guild of America honors including the lifetime achievement award. And just last year the Vermont art Council's governor's award for excellence in the arts having crafted over 500 scripts. He continues to write and lecture. Mr. CARRO is active in the Brattleboro community and lives in Williamsville Vermont with his wife Barbara. Thanks for driving up here. And leisure with us. Now right out of Columbia University you started writing for radio. Why did you choose the broadcast media to go into right away. Well two reasons one it was there. And the other was I had worked at the Columbia University. Radio station the college radio station before World War 2 and after. And when you worked there you did everything

you wrote you directed you did the sound you were the engineer. Absolutely everything. And in the sense I think probably you could say I majored at the rate at the college radio station at Columbia at the when I came back and was just finishing me Columbia had made an arrangement with NBC too. Give courses and NBC people gave in and I took a couple of courses down there and NBC in writing and from my attic and radio was it that it was no telephone and I got a telephone call offering me a job working on the staff. And I could see no reason why not. And I wandered into it and indeed the first. Thing that happened to me as I walked in this is I don't know 20 wondered too something was I was handed the job of doing a six part adaptation of Dickens Great Expectations and it went on like that it was it was marvelous training

because every week you had something to do. You didn't have to wander around wondering who would give you the opportunity to do something fabulous. Now so you've been involved in television certainly also from the very beginning you've moved over into television. What are some of the most significant changes you've seen over the last 50 years and others a broad question like. Oh it that's difficult in a sense of the big changes in so many ways there have been technical changes there have been artistic changes there have been commercial. Business changes. All of these happened some of them just happening even more right now. And. Do you just you adapted at every stage. Well in when you're working in these kinds of fields you you're working where the business is you're working where the job is a little bit like Shakespeare. Who indeed

wrote everything for he had to hand it in on Thursday. And the television was very much like that. And we don't have the same type of live dramas that you did at the very beginning I mean these were like this show but even more live. They they went right out there. There's been a spattering of live programs I think there was a live R. and there was a Live On Golden Pond recently but you just don't see those anymore are we missing something and why don't they do more live drama. Well they don't because technically it's easier to do it the other ways and it's economically much better in your. But in the early times film was very poor the reproduction on air of film was not great. And the everything was done live in the studio. Tape didn't exist either. So when you did it you did it. That was it.

And if the actor blew it it was on the air. And there's a famous story of that so one favorite one. Oh it see I remember doing a thing with the Hume Cronyn and Jessica Tandy. It was a and the end of it was it would have been a whole comedy about various problems at the end of it was the two of them was sitting in a stairway. And the and the whole big what was had happened was going to be explained and explained at that point. And. Mechanically the set was a narrow stairway. There was room for only one camera so that there was one camera out of the what that mean meant was there was no place to go. No other camera switched to. And as we were sitting there in the control room we were watching and Hume gives his line and we were just waiting and suddenly we were all looking in there and you look in Jesse's eyes glazed. And she's.

Absolutely frozen. No human old Stay jacking your unease. He goes on about three or four times giving her the cue again right. Nothing. And then finally in desperation he uses as a character he's saying too. I understand what you are trying to tell me is he going on and did her port. These were distinguished stage actors. But there was there was. Wow. You've been awarded two very coveted Christopher Awards which recognize artistic excellence as well as meaningful humanitarian vision this is this is pretty powerful stuff. And indeed many of your shows like the last Diagnosis Murder fairly recently and other shows more currently your law and order maybe West Wing are trying to reach that higher caliber of writing trying to address important social issues this is something you've been doing for 50 years.

Does. And can dramatic television have real social impact. Oh I think so very much so the in your introduction you mention roots. And there is no question that roots had an enormous impact worldwide. I had run into in later years the tremendous impact it had in Germany when shown and this was true in the United States as well because people got involved in it who would not have been interested in Afro-American history at all. But they were picked up and they they were with it and they were rooting for these characters and it had this was at a important era in history here. And it had an enormous impact. Well there were this was in the mid 70s 70s yeah and something around there and I actually I read that the producers were so concerned that they wouldn't get an audience they use mainly white people in the promotion and you know they found shots of.

They must have been surprised. Well I tell you another tale in the same way which is the network were very very nervous about this whole thing from the start. And what they decided to do was they would allow them to shoot the first two pictures that is have been of many million dollars they put up for that on the theory that this didn't really cost much and they could make up their mind. So we wrote and they shot the first two hours of roots shot in Carolina pretending to be Africa. And then they were going to show it to the all of the executives and the head of that was Freddie Fields at that time very VC who had come out of agency work and so they all the executives were gathered around and they showed this picture and at the end of it nobody said anything. But you understand that nobody would say anything till they heard what the chief

said. Sure you didn't want and Freddie Fields was walking up and down mumbling to himself saying it's a good show. It's terrible you know real good he's real powerful. Mumbling. Then finally turns around he says the group I'll tell you what we're going to do. We will wipe out the entire schedule on ABC for a whole week. And we'll put this off. And either it will be an enormous success or it'll be the biggest damn failure in television history. But at least it will be over in one week. And that's when they decided to put in art which nobody had ever done a mini series like that before you know this was the first time. Yes. Wow. Now as Were you given any restrictions when it came to writing rights. Actually no I don't recall any you know. No I don't believe it is. Yeah it was very clear what they wanted to do and nobody really

quarreled about it to mind oh yes no I didn't write at all. Sure yeah sure. As for many writers your scripts come out of your direct personal experience. There have been stories about you as a prisoner of war or an infantry man and the Battle of the balls you've had a lot of mixed experience indeed. And even as a Vermonter one of your most famous scripts for the defenders was called Black List and indictment of Hollywood and the blacklisting era. How did you personally experience those days like that were very damaging to some writers and actors. Well it was it was all around in the field. You could not avoid it. You knew people who were very badly blacklisted you know actors you knew writers you know other people who were fired. You would hear the names being played around. What developed then was a rather horrifying almost commercial thing that there were or there were people. Who were putting out.

Bulletins. Calling people names. They would then be blacklisted and then if you made a deal with these people in some way you could get yourself off the list. Part of it was. If you agreed to go and name somebody else. Right. And this would have went on and it was well known to everybody in the field. And actually by the time we got to doing it on the defenders. It happened it wasn't the war it was still there but the worst was a little earlier. And so we decided to do that now. Fortunately I didn't have to conduct the negotiations with the network about doing it. That was the producer Herb broad and I never had to hear about it. But I do recall that when we were done as a matter of routine the network asked that the cast that was going to be done be submitted to the network as it was.

And they called back. On one actor saying I don't think we're you know we shouldn't use and her broad can exploded. I bet he said this script is about the blacklist. He said I tell you what. Hire the guy. To hell with them. We're making the movie if they don't want to put it on that's their problem. And that's what they did. But you were never blacklisted. Not not the rectally one. I was involved in a lot of the union activity s at the time and there were different. Factions in the union and the other faction was opposed to. We were in we were in office the other faction was very angry and some of them did testify at various committees and gave names listed the names of the people who are on the other faction and some of them had radical backgrounds that could be proved some of them didn't.

I couldn't remember what I was up in Brattleboro Vermont. Visiting her in-laws my in-laws Barbara's parents and on that day on the front page of the Brattleboro Reformer. This copy came out with my name on it. Oh my. Which was made an interesting weekend right back there. I'm interested in censorship whether you experienced it then or today or at any time through your script writing career I heard there are even times where if Chrysler sponsored a part for show you couldn't say Ford a stream. For example they would look so carefully at the script did you ever encounter any of that yes or no. Let's see if I can recall there was a and I adapted a. I think a Hemingway story. And in the title was something that could have referred to Ford or something and the other company said no. So we had to change the title on the

short story that the did happen does that. Does that happen anymore due to the level restrictions and much and I mean I think there are indeed there are. And it was it was kind of classic that you would get objections from from the network I. Can recall when I was doing Skokie as a matter of fact again this was for her bridegroom's right. Fascinating man. The it had been the script it's been submitted to the network's legal department and their censorship department. And I got a herb called me up and they sent them over to me since I'm going to send you there's four pages of from the people saying what should change says don't pay any attention to them. Excellent. And that's what he said that's what we did He said I just sent it to you for your amusement.

I guess it's great to have a producer like that now. Yeah but one of the critic criticisms of television writing in particular is that it's formulaic and even as early as 1961 David Davidson of the Writers Guild of America said television writing as a sausage factory is like a sausage factory do you agree with him or does it apply now. Yes and No. That is sure there were large sections of print television in comedies and adventures in one thing or another that are really formula. But there are a lot there were a surprising number that are not. So the interesting thing to me is not what was on the air there was nothing and dress routine. But how much was this that a certain significance. Yeah. Public Television doesn't isn't a commercial and ever. But it competes in a hundred channels of cable television that is commercial. What do you think the role of public television can be now. That's different I mean can it.

Can it be one of those places. I you know I think not. I think you're carrying out the role that it really should do. And as far as I can tell doing it rather well. That is I think I know of a number of people who have done shows done series or documentaries and they they cannot sell them anywhere they can't get anybody to put them on even though they weren't commissioned at first by public television. Public Television will eventually agree to do it. Now of course the problem is that the fellow's doing it is losing out because he is not getting the money that he would need sometimes not even the costs. Sure but it is on and not that is an important thing. I want to quote to you from your own words from the defender's screenplay because I think it talks on two levels for me. This is

the father a lawyer to his son who is also a lawyer. The law is manmade and therefore imperfect we don't always have the answer there are injustices in the world. And they're not always solved at the last minute by some brilliant point of law at a dramatic moment. Now to me it sounds like you're talking to a producer arguing for more or more reality or do we always have to sum up stories. Well it that really in a sense was the point frequently in the defenders he lost the case or it was run determined or as in reality. And essentially it's kind of making a point about it. There were other things the Perry Masons and others were no matter what happened. It came out you know great at the end and he won. And of course we weren't doing that on the defenders. What makes a great screenplay. The same thing that makes any. Dramatic work or written work great. It's hard to say it

works it tells a great deal of things it is sensitive and it's intelligent it is deep it is amusing or it is. Captivating. And those are qualities that have people have always been concerned with trying to adapt them and judge art in any way. And I think the same thing is true of a screenplay. Is it. Is it story is it about. It can be story if nothing were character it. Yes exactly it has to do whatever it's doing very and really do it good. Now in the same time period and I'm sure you've done this all of your life but you're writing for the defenders and doctor killed there and the nurses in Route 66. It seems over the same period of time now did you work on one script at a time or were you doing multiple scripts or when you had to literally work on once the writing of it one at a time. Very often you were making the deals of the negotiations of the same time you know.

Well when I'm through with this I'll be able to do that. When you're down to writing it that's what you're paying attention to and you really have to concentrate. We always did. I must have had a very powerful work ethic. Do you get up early in the morning or your morning writer if you think you know why or I think the worst that I think was that you really had to get the script done. That it was oh you know it was due on Thursday. And if you made it to live next Monday that might be all right but not much more. And there are were very famous stories of some of our colleagues who couldn't make that who weeks and weeks and weeks of late. You you also and maybe it's because some of this time though it seemed like you were in New York most of the time or sitting in your home in Vermont you snuck for MOT into a lot of our stories and Route 66 there are some very famous from out line in there.

Did you coin those are they. Some I coing some of them are old vaudeville like this for such as well. The O in the opening sequence for that route 66 the two fellows the two heroes lost and there for some an old farmer drives by with a hay wagon or something and they start asking how do I get the Brattleboro. And of course and he's already said he's going he's doing all these kind of things as well the bridge is out over here it was so as well if I was going to Brattleboro I wouldn't start from here. A very old joke. And the actor PARKER FRIEND OR YOU who was a marvelous old New England actor just made it sound like we had invented it right there. Indeed. Well even in Lincoln the president begins talking to a 15 year old soldier who is from Vermont and and you know the holes in the history of what he would relate to the president. Is it important to you to get slices of Vermont in

your school I made that up or not. Not that he was not talking to a young soldier but I knew it could be that the Mont regiment. Because I'd read that and then when I asked him where he came from I had him say Newfane. Because that's where we live not you know why not. I also had something else he also gave his name. And I think I used one of my wife's. Ancestors who was in the Civil War from Vermont and had him say that's what was his name. No nobody got that except the two of us. So that's a lot of fun. Do you think that Vermont in your life here is affected your work in any way. I think very much. We've been sort of vaguely connected with it for almost 45 50 years because we have a place and in recent times. We now live here all the time. Or you know around here. But knowing the

the various kind of cultural mythology of Vermont was a very useful thing in a number of places and I had indeed used it just to entertain myself and nobody else. And did now the other you you lived in New York much of your life you didn't have to live in Hollywood was there not by difference between the two for you there would have been NO I NEVER NEVER did I think I think the longest time was one time I was working on a screenplay and I had been on the coast for like two or three months. And there was the family moved out and we had a rental house and we were very happy when we got back to the east right. Do you watch TV and what shows do you think are worth watching. Well I have not. I've watched a lot of them I have not watched too many recently. We've been in the country doing other works right.

But there were a number of them. You pick and choose right. I find the. The ones I like best in the sense are in the same ward what I used to be doing which is the made for-TV movies the one where I guess there is more to those. One of the two quotes. I've read some quotes that you had a lot of influence on screenwriters and you've certainly done so much as a little bit of teaching. What are the one or two most important things you would say to him and the spire and screenwriter. Well I'm really stealing it from a science fiction writer who said the first thing you have to do is sit down and write. The second thing is finish it. And the third thing ascended to somebody. And when they send it back send it the somebody else. And that was his advice to people who want to be professional writers. I think it's very true you have to. Avoid the getting

stuck with this theory and philosophy in every. All of that. That's a no that's good in its time but you have to sit down and write. You should have to step down and do it and doing something. And just a close up working on anything now. Not really there and if you think there are a few projects that are floating around out there and I wouldn't want to stand on one foot till I hear about it. But that's about it today. Well you certainly have given all of us a lot over many years thank you for all your work and thank you so much for coming up here today must have been like it was a great pleasure and thank you for being with us. On profile.