Profile; Interview with Archer Mayor; Interview with David Moss; Interview with Dana Yeaton

A. Crime novelist Archer Mayor is one of the best in the business. His 12 Joe Gunther mysteries avoid the good guy bad guy cliche by showing readers the complex interplay between police work and human nature. Join me for a conversation with Archer Mayor next on profile. The mayor was on the move most of his life before settling in Vermont as a writer brought up by an Argentine mother and a restless management consultant father who moved his family of six about every four years. Mayer caught the travel bug early on. After graduating from Yale with a degree in history he tried on a lot of hats in a lot of places. He was a photographer in Connecticut a medical illustrator in Cleveland a political advance man in California Time-Life Books researcher in New York City an editor in Texas and a photo lab technician for Paris Match in Paris. Mayer finally settled in

Brattleboro in 1980 married and wrote histories for a variety of clients. In 1988 the first Joe Gunther mystery open season was published he cranked out another one nearly every year since featuring this keen witted cop to great acclaim. Thank you for being with us our way. Thanks for already a morning here for five minutes so as you know now you're going to be here Monday and I've said no we've been settled for all this you know I know I know it's gone now despite the fact that your first novel received rave reviews. It took a little while your entree into the publishing world. You wrote a couple of mysteries before that what finally happened to make open season that breakthrough a road edition book. Only only one director sizes and typing here. Oh dear. Well you know our view there is the presumption that when you get the first time you jump on a bicycle you crash and burn. Everyone assumes the first time you write your first book that it's

publishable it's utter nonsense. The first time you write your first book anyone who either had body armor or a table between you and wants a good burn it so as a first attempt it's probably no good. Was there was there something that that changed for that. That last one. Yeah. Yeah I'll be a little more help. Oh. We're going to go you know what the process is. Yes you it is an exercise in typing it's also an exercise in self discovery in finding your narrative voice in discovering the world you wish to inhabit because let's face it you're going to be doing this 24/7 for you know years and years and years. I live with the make believe characters. You know that's you've got to get comfortable with that. So I think what actually made open season work was was in two steps. One was that I recognized I was I was discussing a guy on a

topic in which I was increasingly interested in other words it wasn't any secret I was going to chalk it was a manuscript I was going to totally rewrite because I was in in the neighborhood of something I was interested in but it wasn't there. So I was going to edit it. I literally threw it away. Open season was written in three completely separate books one of which had nothing to do with its its its accessor But the third version of this the one that became open season was the only one. Written in the first person I made that narrative breakthrough because I think a lot of beginner writers they they keep away from the first person as too personal they suspect that readers are going to see them through the narrative. Oh my God I can't believe you think sideway or something like that when in fact I did make that well do you. But let's be honest when you're reading something that's well written. You never think about the writer. OK you understand it well. Thank you. But you possess that story you

become the storyteller and I think it's the author's job to engage the reader in a coastal Tory's storytelling operation. You trust their imagination and their intelligence and you back off. Or you disappear. Now unlike some wood glue the image of some writers you are very involved in very respected it appears to be going to be much alcohol. While you're the constable You are the. The town meeting moderator for the town of new thing when you're on the one of civility not the town when you're on the board of trustees of your local hospital and other things will get you in a moment. What works for Vermont for you personally and as a setting for these novels having travelled a fair amount as you pointed out Vermont has come to represent to me a kind of a huge village. It's the one place I can go to where there are few enough of us that

I can get to know what makes it tick. In other words you go to California and you want to find out. Well I'd say since I write crime novels it would be the Director of Public Safety. I pick up the phone and 48 hours later and 400 phone calls later I'm no closer to him than I might have been at the very beginning here. I pick up the telephone and I call Jim Walton first call because he and I are friends. Because he's immediately available because he has one part time assistant who either does or doesn't answer the phone and who knows me. Also you know there's those kind of advantages and. Not only in proximity but but familiarity. You can get out into Vermont and ask people what makes them tick what they feel about the situations going on around them and get a straight answer. Not not encumbered with a whole bunch of CAN'T and and and complex city that they would be injected by millions and millions of fellow Vermonters. Well some people feel that you're limiting yourself by being regional you know but

then there's 20 Hellam and then Robert Parker and this is a problem right now I mean the original thing went to the regional thing is great because when the first book came out which which you're actually right you got incredibly good reviews I can say that you know without pretense because I was as astonished as anyone else. The funny thing was though that once that book came out I had no idea what to do next in fact I was scared witless as to as to where to head and now I can't. Of course I can't remember your question I think. It's just you know some people think that regional Oh yeah you know OK let me hear what year was yesterday the regional the regional thing I've you'll find out the my mind works and do not try to chaotic a fascist way just keep me on a street narrow as much as possible. The beauty was a lot of those really good reviews said. A wonderful regional voice and of course all the money the bean counters you know the publisher and the agent everything or oh cool you know make a million bucks on this guy because he's a really strong original voice. Well

you'll say this didn't happen. I mean you're very kind to have me on the show and all this but I ain't no millionaire. So book after book came out all the bean counters are going along gosh we thought we had a really strong regional voice here. The reviews stayed solid. No one's love the books you know. But after a while. 5th book six Book Seven the book you know we're still not buying out Miles Roddy so I. Asked him so why are we all millionaires yet or just your opinion. They went well your original writer. I see a lot of all right OK. Well. Speaking of regional gammas as captain of the new book rescue squad and a volunteer firefighter actually an interior attack the firefighter you've gained experience of intense situations and cultivated a lot of friendships with the Police Fire and Rescue departments clearly these have helped you with your directly with your

writing. Is this is this what you would want to do and be doing anyway or is it just research you're all good lord no I mean the heart's in it. Yeah the heart's in it. We're live here we go back to this peripatetic background OK. The wanderer of the world Globetrotter type guy always the last one and always the first one out. Make no friends make no connections make no community roots. So finally I go home to her mom 21 whatever 22 years ago. And I begin to discover that I might be able to get what I've always yearned for but at the back end of my life in effect instead of growing up and and you know community and then running away from it I have come into the community of Vermont if you will and began begun to immerse myself into what makes it tick. You know I'm not only writing about people I'm becoming a person myself a community person which I never was before. So you know way I inject myself into all these occupations all of which are volunteer because it's it is good for the work.

Sure it's also good for the brain because it's you know a crisis situation but it's good for the heart and it's good to cook for the community. What do they think of your work. These people that you work for an all day long but I think that's too corny for words. Lord I have of Naam just as you know someone on your squad I mean it's a joke. I mean they they all give me unmitigated flak all the time and I think it's great fun whatever kind of research do you do. Or do you need to do other research. No I do a lot of research every every one of these books is in effect. I almost feel like I'm keeping the minutes of the meeting because my head all do sometimes. I guess my record for a book called A dark room was 50 people. So anywhere from 25 to 50 people will be interviewed per book because I want to write. From ignorance. I don't want to write about what I know I want to write about what I can find out about what I'm curious about and what I might be able to pass along to my readers in an interesting and engaging fashion.

Well that point in fact you also have been accepted in Vermont's assistant medical examiner program. But it seems that much of your personal research is also with the the your friends at the Brattleboro police department and they're in a bit of hot water right now with this this shooting at the church. It's quite a story does it. Does that tempt you. No I'm I'm. I don't write about real things. In fact I try to write about real human beings but in fictional context so that we don't politicize these books I want people to be able to read these books and gain an insight into the human condition the way people think of the way Vermont's functions and Vermonters function away the way the systems interact and people work with people work within those systems. To use a hot topic like a real shooting that occurred in a real place at a real time would I think pull the rug out from under that

objectivity that ability to use these books as a platform for everybody to. Reach conclusions. Or do you see what I'm saying here is that if I wrote I mean I started life as writing history books I used to write history or forward mysteries so. I'd go I'd be going right back to there. The whole one of the great rewards of writing in fiction is if you can step away from that that. Haug tieing reality base if you will. OK. And to evoke using it in the fiction and imagination is a platform. Engage more people's thoughts and considerations than they might if you just projected the real situation real situation they can immediately invoke prejudiced opinion. I don't want to see if I can avoid that. So how do you get your story ideas. Oh lord and how do you tell a really good brain. I don't think of these things all the time.

It's amazing. Most of them are ignorance and curiosity as I said before most of them most of these books are stimulated by by things that did that I'm not I want to find out more about some of them are social issues like the book I'd like to start writing now. You have you about kids and drugs in Vermont because I that's a growing topic a lot of people are becoming very concerned about it. But there is a perfect case in point touching to your your your previous question. I don't want to write about a real case of kids and drugs. I want to talk about the generalized topic that to me becomes more relevant. And I cannot well educate myself I'll go and talk to people who deal with kids and drugs I don't know a hell of a lot about it but I think it's a relevant subject. So how do you plot out your stories I mean some people have three by five cards an awful role in all of this. How do you go about take the easy route I don't want all of you know how do you know where you're going or don't have no clue. Well I mean. The thing you see when you interview as many people as I do and you spend as much time traveling around and collecting data and whatnot you end up with so much stuff that

basically you can write anything. You can go in any direction and you've got the material. Let OK let's turn it around. I'm going to drive from where we were in Burlington roughly going to right from Burlington to Boston. Look I know I can go one way I go with the interstate all the way. Or I can look at the map and research the map and analyze and identify the 450 variations on getting from one B to the other B. OK and once I've got all those committed in my head then I just jump in my car begin to drive. And as I drive I'm looking out the window and going Well I kind of looks neat. So I'll go that way. I'm still heading to Boston but I'm going by gut and I know I won't lose my way because I've looked at the map. I memorized all the various roads that were available to me but which particular combination of roads I want to take I have no clue until I'm driving. So then tell me about how you structure your writing down. Well I write seven days a week basically and I write in the afternoons and early

evenings. Yeah usually you know now I stay up till midnight or 1:00 o'clock every every night or every morning. People have learned not to call me that at any other reasonable morning hour and everyone else is already at work I'm asleep. Go to where you can get me early Oreos like I'm getting a pager to go off and I don't know I'll get up but my day is a little bit canted over on that side. I don't eat lunch and I don't eat much breakfast so I don't fall asleep after lunch because there is no lunch. So the afternoon is a very very constructive time for me. Interesting. Yeah unless you call the way to a firearm right or so you think exactly that and that doesn't bother me in the slightest. People say well gosh you know Aren't you worried that you're going to interrupt a great idea of a great idea. Nothing is going to interrupt it. If it's a really lousy idea thank God I got interrupted so I don't suffer from that. I'm rather surprised that none of your books have been made into movies I would imagine some of at least been optioned. Oh quite a few times. In fact I've now come to the realisation that

90 percent of movies by the time that they spend so much time on the contract. That they're too exhausted to make the movie. So what have I done. Do you think about Hollywood. Oh yeah. Ongoing about 10 options. You do sometimes I generated money sometimes they haven't you know not of not a foot of film has ever taken place and I've now come to accept that as the norm. Having said that now I hope this field. My my my hope is full of heart you have my heart is filled with hope because I just got an e-mail late last night that a deal I've been looking working with for a very long time looks like it's going right so who would you like to play Joe Gunther. Oh good lord someone alive. You know. I used to use OK. I used to answer Danny DeVito because I thought everyone would laugh. But there are too many people going really slow but you know then I tried Whoopi Goldberg and even then I was fine I gave up you know that the thing

about. A writer. Having movies made from his or her work. My recommendation is don't go there don't don't inject yourself into a process you know nothing about. For one thing it's physically impossible to make a movie from a book because a book is let's say three hundred pages in a movie at most in script form is about one hundred twenty pages you so you can't get there from here. So just don't. You've done the book. So I remember some some writer was once asked well you know didn't aren't you terrified they screwed up your work or something and said My work's right there on the shelf. Well speaking of you work. Before I let you go I want you to read at least one paragraph and this is one of my favorite from your your latest book Tucker peak starting right there. It's a it's a view of Vermont we don't always see although I think you just mentioned it's New Hampshire but trust me for that. No no no not this one. We finished our meal of greasy offerings from a fast food place in Springfield Vermont about 40 minutes north of Brattleboro

and drove a few blocks north past a mere derelict shopping mall with half its parking lot and plowed into a neighborhood of two story apartment buildings lined up like shoe boxes left too long in the rain. Both sides of the narrow street were dotted with Rusting cars and dirty snow. Many of the windows were boarded up or covered with plastic sheeting and the top edges of several of them had been licked with black soot from past fires both arson and freebasing being popular time killers here. You know I was astonished at the Department of Tourism never contacts me to tell me. Picture will you do your due to full descriptions as well especially since the tucker peak takes place in the ski area and all that kind of good stuff. How do you make sense now you have 12 your 13th is coming out soon. How do you make your books as accessible to new readers and still

compelling to the ones to your fans that have read every book. Well this is a real consideration I mean you have to watch out for a number of reasons of not the least being that you have to presume in this business that your earlier books are all going to go out of print. Well I've been very incredibly fortunate blessed my publisher for that. But that being the adage in the business you have to assume that readers coming into your work. A They're not going to start with a book number one. Possibly because it doesn't exist any longer and B they may just be handed a book and they'll start from the back and then go to the front even if all your books are available so you have to treat them with a certain amount of respect. But by the same token you also have to pay attention to those faithful who come you know through the valley of death with you in sequence and sequence exactly and so you don't want to pay them the disrespect of repeating the same paragraph or the same character in an introductory fashion book by book by book solve the trick is don't give it all away in the first book. Little

by little the faithful will be rewarded with increasing exposure to various aspects of the character that you haven't shared with them before and the newcomers are merely find out of you know the same thing that the old timers have found out but they wouldn't have known about the other bits and pieces. One of the most interesting I mean everybody loves Joe Gunther But will it come out. Here's a really interesting character and some of the adjectives that use use for him. Cynical hard bitten nasty minded arrogant insubordinate willful like a hostile attack dog. And here's just one quick since he was dismissive offensive and occasionally abusive but largely I thought because he'd been saddled with insight so clear as to make life almost unbearable. So certainly Willie has this quite remarkable and wonderful side he's always at Joe's bed when Joe gets wounded and and now he has this relationship with Sammy and he's the focus of your new book.

Yes yes tell us about this the new book is called the sniper's wife. Turns out. To me or any of my readers that his nickname in Vietnam was the sniper. This book I'm shaking things up a little bit up to now. All 12 books have been first person narration is from Joe gone through the viewpoint. Of the father figure the stable guy the voice of consciousness. Meanwhile you've got this crazed maniac off on the other side who's a perfect counterbalance the yin yang to two to zero but it has occurred to me along with Joe being everyone's favorite Willie is the guy one loves to hate. I needed to avoid the risk that Willy over time. Having only been seen from Joe's perspective would be reduced to the form of a caricature. It was time for Willy to allowing be allowed center stage. Well I couldn't do that through Joe's eyes because we already had Joe's eyes. He says viewpoint so the snipers wife is the third person there.

It's all the other LEOs. Not just no no no third person so it's a sort of an omniscient viewpoint. He said she said you know I kind of stuff not I. And it takes place in New York City. Now the reason for the New York City venue is not because I'm walking away from Vermont it's because regional thing if I just think it's actually resolving our broader regionally if I'm going to let Willie be Willie I better let him do it outside of the state because Willie is a pretty wild and crazy guy would we look at him through Joe's perspective a lot of what he does is we don't want to know about Joe basically says well I appreciate the information. Well tell me how you got it. OK. It's important that I do not describe Willie from a third person narrative going crazy. In Vermont write. That it was important he go back in time because I wanted to show what makes him tick. What you know let's look he's basically a really good companies the only one that's got this shady assignee wild hair.

You know the wild here in a very troubled background we needed to go back in time back in geography down in New York identify where he came from and don't pollute the Vermont waters that he currently habits this is kind of the land of milk and money for Willie This is where he might be able to redeem his soul and make good. So if we're going to describe what made Willie Willie we gotta go back to his roots and we gotta get out of Vermont. Interesting but this would still be considered part of the job. Oh I see you're all good or yes Joe's in a certain you know who's in it. Sammy's in it they come in but it's just a slightly different perspective. But it's very much in the series. So why why mysteries I mean why not some other genre or even spies you dipped into that with the disposable man Delfino geriatrics far as you know but I thought it was like hey if you're going to write a CIA story make the mole septuagenarians. I think you know it was funny it was a question I had asked myself early on because I didn't want to make a living glorifying violence that just seems so so tawdry and you know I was not not not worthwhile but.

The construct of the mystery novel is fascinating to a lots and lots of people. I mean when you look at the sales records of various types of novels or forms of literature such as poetry which always goes to hell. God bless poets I mean my heart bleeds for every poet I ever meet because I hold my God you are the true answers but mystery writers are just more and more and more and more mystery readers all the time I don't know where they come from. I'm very happy they're there. But why was the question I asked myself why I finally came up my own answer which was that I think these crime novels. In effect occupy or give us a parallel universe to our own. In other words we wake up every morning we look at the newspaper as a life in chaos people are doing unspeakable. You know lousy things to one another. We go through the whole day and at the end of they are still doing lousy unspeakable you know irrational things to want to go to bed confused and a little bit upset. Day after day after day after day. Well so there's the mystery novel

world I'm speak of all things terrible you know unmentionable Sango same world bought. You guys in white hats. You have resolutions you have a sense of hopefulness a sense of control over that new world. So that's what I mean by the parallel in a funny kind of way I think mystery novels give their readers a sense of comfort in a very uncomfortable world. Perhaps it's just one pin interesting so quickly that that's book 13 it's coming out in the fall. Yes what are you working on now. Now it's going to be this book about kids and drugs are part of I'm going to split I think could be a Tale of Two Cities Brattleboro and rubble of the way I'm looking at now. OK. But who knows. And another quick one. What about Joe Gunther is not like you. Oh good Lord God there's just tons and tons. Oh I mean I mean we all live we all look in the mirror and we wish we could be Joe Gunther. And what do we see Willie.

Thank you so much for being with us today. And thank you for joining us on Profile don't miss if you have so far not miss an Archer Mayor Joe Gunther mystery. They're terrific. Thanks for joining us. Old. Old. Thing. Thing thing. So much is going on in Montreal and not all of us take advantage of the offerings of this great

city. Join me in a conversation about art and Montreal with the director of the city Bronfman Center for the Arts. David Moss next on profile. David Moss has a new session with a gun her daughter your ship. He holds a Bachelor of Commerce degree in marketing and finance from Concordia but also a certificate in music from the Musicians Institute in California. It was a perfect combination when he joined the city Bronfman Center in 1994 as director of the School of Fine Arts the Bronfman center is a hobby of art activity in Montreal offering classes lectures seminars and camps in the performing and fine arts. It also offers gallery and other art exhibit spaces as well as award winning English and Yiddish theater. Moss moved quickly through the organization to head up corporate development and finally took over as director of the

center in 1996. Venue. Thank you for coming in to that effect. Thank you for having me. Since the Bronfman center opened in 1967 it has been through many changes but what was it like then what was the goal of this center. Well I think that the broadness children originally made the donation of the center to the Jewish community in order for the community in general to have access to a variety of different arts programs. I think that over the years in the last 35 years in particular it's grown to so I would say make it a much bigger impact than perhaps originally was intended or was soon to have the potential in the context of the development of Montreal over the same period. Now what do people think of the Bronfman Center say in 1990 and what do they think of it now. Has it changed in the last 10 or so years.

The center actually has gone through a bit of a renaissance during that exact period of time. I think up until the late 80s the beginning of the 90s. This interview was. Trying to find its voice it went through a sort of adolescent period. Over the course of the first 20 25 years and I think ultimately the leadership of the organization starting in the mid 80s and running into the beginning of the 90s really looked at what kind of a model can be established in terms of not only promoting excellence in the arts which is our fundamental mission but how the community can take ownership of the organization and the relationship that existed not only with the Jewish community but with the community at large in terms of servicing its interests its needs in a unique and compelling way and for the longer term. So one of those things the School of Fine Arts is the largest credit school in Montreal. It offers bilingual classes. Now how do you

how do you manage that how do you manage the Francophone the English and the French. What if an artist only speaks one language. How do you how do you do it. Well as you're well aware Montreal is a very diverse community so people come from various points of reference not only with their language but their ethnic communities and we have a commitment to service really of the diverse community that Montreal is naturally. There are two prominent languages spoken in Montreal proper and that is English and French. Coinciding with what we were just talking about in terms of renewed sort of vision for what this center can be two Montrealers the School of Fine Arts embarked on a new strategy for its own development and really reached out to the entire community through marketing programs as well as the way the courses were developed. Ensuring that not only the service was delivered by the annually but also that we would hire a professional artist to teach of courses that came from the community so it was really sort of an in reach and an outreach strategy at the same time. The school is

dedicated really to the personal development of each individual student. And if you take a drawing class for example you're going there based on your own vision your own needs your own expectations about what you're going to learn in that class. Some people come in with absolutely no experience and are fearful of drawing anything in front of themselves let alone another 15 students or an artist's professional and others have experience so there's a dynamic in the class that is very much based on. Promoting an inner confidence in each student and the instruction although there's up to a maximum of only 15 students in each class. The instruction really takes place on a one to one basis you don't have major group projects where there is a lot of communication taking place of the entire class. An introduction might take place. All the teachers are bilingual. There are two main criteria to teach they have to be professional artistes and they have to be able to speak at least both languages. There's also a lot of allophones students so we have I think we have artists each for us from just

about every country in the world so there's it's really a multilingual environment. And the one on one instruction is what's really really important. Now you also have other innovative programs you had one called Peace which was putting origin empty retail spaces. You have other ones it seems that Montreal is interested in public art. Each metro station had 1 percent of its funds go to art. How were you involved in the community at large around public art programs or innovative programs around the arts. Artifice is an excellent example we we at the time 1996 was the first event in 1998 was the second event of the time Montreal was in an economic slump and there was a lot of retail space in prominent locations. For example on St. Catherine Street that were vacant and we partnered with the owners of these spaces in order to bring art to the public as opposed to expect the public to come in to see it. And we do contemporary art it's not necessarily the most accessible or highly visible art that's available to the public so we completely reverse the role

that contemporary plays in people's lives and put it in their tracks. And it was very very well responded to we think you have to 22000 visitors the first first edition. Now would the city help help you in any way in doing this kind of public art project or did you just decide to do it and work with the retail spaces. Well the actor and the curator of our gallery at the time I had a very strong vision and advocated very strongly on behalf of the program of the first edition. We promoted Montreal artists in the second edition we promoted Montreal Toronto in the York Argus and the city was very key in helping us to leverage the program. They subsidized it and helped us with regards to various technical services in these types of things. With regard to other programs that we do in that vein we generally try to bring people to the center. But we do a lot of outreach to schools and we do a lot of programs that will stimulate creativity in various places.

Public art in general is not necessarily what we're what we're what we're doing. Another example of something that we did our 30 30th anniversary five years ago we're about to celebrate our thirty fifth anniversary is the School of Fine Arts Institute or program also supported by the city down at the old port of Montreal and we took four of our of our sculptors sculptors who took teach classes at the city. This city not only funded it but donated huge logs that they cut down trees to the center that we transported down to the old port and they sculpted for two weeks straight in front of the public. And then we donated one of the sculptures to one of them one of the works to the city that is now in a permanent space in one of the parks. Great. Now the the Centaurs theater is the English theater in Montreal. How do you distinguish yourselves from from them. Well we knew that our commitment to Montreal to Montreal in 1998 with regards to English language

theatre in the 70s the censor had a very very prominent and vibrant theater program. And in 1998 we decided that it was time to renew our commitment and to redefine the context of how we delivered English language theatre to the Montreal community. Considering the make up of the Montreal communities in terms of the cultural communities in terms of the languages that were spoken in terms of the political and social divides that were construed by the powers that be it set around to try and break down those barriers through English language theater by providing quality Productions. And again in the context of the city Balkan censors overall community development sensibility. But they aren't City brought productions it seems that you're partnering with other groups that do theatre I mean when I looked at the list there were a lot of different organizations it seemed were produced by different people or as or have a misconception a combination of various

factors. When we when we redefined our commitment to theater at the same time we also had to redefine our fiscal requirements and there's a there's a longer term plan in order to do that. So it was a combination of us producing our own theater productions co-producing other productions and partnering with other interests mostly theatre companies in Montreal and around the country in order to leverage our commitment if you will at the time and. Education was a very important part of our mandate. Certainly quality was a very important part of our mandate. I'll give you some specific examples in terms of how we can and we embraced and we continue to embrace the philosophy and the sort of the mandate and uniqueness of the city Bronfman center and how I think we've been able to carve out a more distinctive need for our programs and not in comparison to the center of Peter

because the better we do is as the two major English language producers for the Montreal community I think the better the community is and the better we both are together. Brian Wasserman who was appointed the artistic director at that time and maintains her role today established a partnership with a flagship Montreal Francophones theater called the 50 year old theater it's actually the oldest professional theatre in Canada. And this is an interesting story this production is called grace and glory written by Tom Ziegler an American translated. Back Icon Michelle Trombley into French and performed at the overhead in one thousand ninety eight in French by two backs. Real star performers and Linda Sorgi and directed by another film and theater icons in these videos they did it in French it was a smash hit an American play translated into French performed by these two

wonderful actresses who happen to have been bilingual actresses. So we work with the veil to bring that same production into the same Bronfman center and really bridge a cultural divide that is is sort of I would say challenging to do in any other circumstances and within the arts. They did it there in English. We did in their own evolution we won an award last year for their rep or for months the two actresses won their best actress mask award which is equivalent to a Tony Award in Quebec. We've also established partnerships just to give you another context with the companies out of Toronto. This whole pepper theater company for example with the Manitoba Theatre Center the National Arts Center and you know also the role we play in the theater community is not only significant with regards to the Montreal community but is really bringing the best in Canadian talent to Montreal audiences. Now is that I actually haven't heard the term Anglo nxt for a while but I know that it has come up with such questions as can Anglo actors directors producers maintain a career

in Montreal. As we say there's not a tremendous amount of English language cultural production taking place in Montreal since two or three years ago maybe four years ago now there's been a huge resurgence in the film industry in Canada and a lot of Hollywood companies are coming to produce in. In Montreal proper There's fantastic facilities the technicians the technical expertise is very very high level and the Canadian dollar is attractive to American producers. So that's provided a certain level of opportunity for Canadian actors but the telltale truth of the industry is that most young emerging actors that are Anglo phone are in Toronto and we felt as part of our strategy that we wanted to provide more of an opportunity in the short and the long term for Montreal young talent to have a place to go to

work and to develop their careers at the center of their something's coming down the road. Now that we've sort of stabilized their position we've had wonderful response from the community. Your subscriptions have increased by three times in that period. The governments have responded very positively with support. The critics locally and nationally have taken note of what we're doing and it's managing English language theatre in Montreal is by no stretch of the imagination an easy task but the commitment of the organization that's been in the city and has such a strong commitment and tied to the community for 35 years I can say is in for the long haul and I think that we will promote it. And it's not a language based issue it's a question of. I think a quality service to the Montreal community the Montreal disaster has a theater for the theater and to the Montreal community we have a relationship. The man should visit the leadership of the Montreal Gazette on Saturday as practically

doubles because most Francophones read the Gazette. The 1996 census statistics Canada took stated that 1.9 million people in Montreal speak English 1.6 of which are bilingual. You know that's a lot of Francophones that speak English. Yes and so it's not really a language issue it's a question of accessibility to quality arts programs that are distinct. Great. Now you were in charge of corporate support. And I'm sure you're still involved in how the center makes its money. But many corporations left back in the early 90s for fear that the separatist referendum. How profoundly did that affect arts. Institutions and. And where are you getting. Are you mainly getting corporators a government or private or a combination of both. Our support comes from all aspects of the community. Corporate support for the organization comes in two forms we have corporate sponsors

like Hydro Quebec which is a major sponsor of our theater programs banks. It's a high level and sort of well rooted companies that believe in the mandate in the philosophy of our commitment to the community overall. We run an annual fund raising event. For example an annual gala where we solicit various companies of all levels to buy corporate tables and those types of things. The governments are highly implicated at all levels in our activities where we're where applicable and we have a Friends of the Center program that ensures that we can diversify the base of our support and add incentive and and sort of connect and dialogue with the community. As we would need to do. And so there hasn't been. A drop off in the corporate support you were able to find people to continue to support. We asked without without calling yourselves the Molson Center for the Arts. No no no no we're not changing the name of the censor

certainly answered and no if anything our corporate program only started really seven years ago many years ago I started myself. It was in an area that hadn't been tapped prior to that. Our fundraising has increased tremendously from all levels and I'll speak mostly about the individual the individual patron of the city or even Samuel and say the broth men were legendary philanthropist saying there. Do you have people of that caliber still giving in. We have people of all calibers giving and every contribution to this answer is a valuable one and people give what they can and it's it's our role to ensure that we increase at all opportunities the value of the cultural resource to the community with those that you know have an appreciation for it and value it is significant. The thing that the gallery at the center is quite beautiful the building is very beautiful it was designed by architect Phyllis Lambert who is the daughter of the late Samuel and

saidI broth and to what degree is that family still involved in the in the center. The family is directly involved. His son Stephen is a member of our board and he helps where he can help in certain instances. And I would say this family is quite pleased with the results. I would say the renaissance of the center and its being able to promote its value to the community and in supporting a community owned model. We are completely self financed must balance our budget every year. We've diversified our revenue sources from actually from maximizing if you will the sales revenue of our various programs from the school the youth Institute the theater etcetera and ensuring that all the stakeholders in the community from the governments the corporations the individuals. Are our valuing the organization as it should be and giving

giving back to the community it's not a very sick concept. It really is working for them. But the center is is part of the way of Montreal. It's connected to the Jewish center. What is that connection all about. There's a physical connection we're actually adjacent to the community centers the Bronfman children originally made the donation of the city center building as a as an as a cultural resource of the Jewish community center. We share some basic philosophies and sort of corporate values if you will. And I believe that if anything could be said of the very very important value of being associated with the Montreal Jewish community centers it comes down to Jewish community values and enrichment in the community and how. The Jewish community overall can play an important role not only for its own members but for the members that they share the landscape with. And it's something

that I think everybody that works for the center and is involved in the sense of a fair basis from the boards to the committees regardless of where you know what their own heritage is. I think value on a humanity basis. How strong is the Jewish community in montréal it's a very old community very from the very beginning really very interesting history in Montreal. I mean he's been very involved in the development of the city over many many years. From a social political dynamic you have very strong strong and majority French Catholic community and then you had a smaller but more economically powerful Protestant English community. And without getting into into any sort of. Particular commentary about the evolution of those relationships it was necessary for the Jews in order to not

only celebrate their heritage but to. Really. Put their roots down in Montreal to build their own institutions. So you have a very solid infrastructure over 80 90 100 years in Montreal of Jewish communal institutions and full service social health community based organizations. Another major thing for you in the institution is the youth Institute. They're doing a lot of things for youth in the arts. Why is it so important to develop arts for children. It's critical it's absolutely critical that youth have I say especially today in the year 2000 to access to opportunities to discover themselves and to discover their their own creativity. And they're the people that they share the community with. And we launched the youth Institute in 1996 with a very profound vision to ensuring that youth had accessibility and were sensitized to the value

of culture and of the arts in general. Were you sensitized as a youth you were brought up in Montreal you became a musician. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and why. Why this. Business and the arts did that come from your childhood. The arts was a part of my life since I could remember. I started playing guitar at five years old my grandfather played guitar my father played guitar everything from Bob Dylan to the band. The great you know R&B and rock and blues artists of the 60s were part of my environment. On the other side of my family my my mother's side I had a strong exposure to that sort of folk era as well as to a lot of ethnic music from Eastern Europe and Russia. So music was always a very prominent in my environment and I just felt very comfortable with it and I ended up playing guitar from an early age in

terms of business I think that I got a sense quite early on that in order to. I suppose achieve what you want to achieve that you have to take responsibility for it and in order to create a vision and to see that vision through that there was a sense of organization and a sense of envisioning how that could be done and those are sort of the early roots of I think how I was attracted to business and the organization and science and now what I consider to be maybe ironically the arts of business. And my father is a businessman so I had some some good to do you know tutoring from him. Do you find many people like you I mean so many people think art here artists they are in another world doing another kind of thing and they're almost the opposite in business and here you are blending these two are are you a rare bird or do you meet other people that actually are like you. Well now that I'm the director of the city center I'm fortunate enough to meet a lot of other people that I can say are like me but definitely you know encompass a lot of these skills that are necessary to

promote the arts effectively. I have to be comfortable talking to artists and understanding what their vision of their expression is and at the same time I have to be able to cultivate a corporate donor or a government. An official or minister in what we're doing so I made a lot of people that are extremely passionate about promoting the value of culture in the community. And to me every one of them that I meet brings a new vision to it a new sensibility to it and it's it's a privilege to be able to meet people that have such a strong commitment to you know what ultimately I consider to be one of the highest value if not highest value resources and benefits to people in the community. You thirty fifth year is coming up. What what do you what's what's what's planned Why should we come out we should come up because we're going to be launching a whole series of new.

Programs that will reinforce our commitment to excellence in the arts. Absolutely. That is one of our most fundamental goals is the quality of the programming the accessibility of the arts sometimes quality and accessibility are perceived as polar opposites and one of the things we try to do is bring that gap as close together as possible if not to synergize them. We will also be promoting it as an integral part of what we do on a regular basis the educational aspect of what we do. We will be reinforcing the way we connect with the community and how we will ensure that more people understand that arts is not a luxury it's a right and that they have access to it at their leisure and for their own development. So we'll keep our eye on you and on the city Brosnan Center thank you so much for coming and good luck to you. My pleasure thank you for and thank you for being with us. Why

were were. The his plays have been produced for theatres from Kentucky to Singapore following to his productions of his works by Vermont stage company Dany Etan's latest play opened soon in Burlington. Stay with us for a conversation with this multi award winning playwright and master of dialogue. Then again next on profile. Yes but I think Hampshire and Vermont. He was the first of his family to get a college

degree in his junior year at Middlebury College he studied in Scotland met his wife and returned to Middlebury to raise a family and make a career of teaching and writing and he has done well with five plays in print and even more produced for the stage. He won the prestigious Haydn award from the Actors Theatre of Lowell and the Moss Hart award from the New England theatre conference for his play Mad River rising yet and has been awarded two fellowships from the Vermont Arts Council and two from the Shenandoah international playwrights retreat. He is the founder of the Vermont young playwrights project and teaches play writing at Middlebury College the University of Vermont and the governor's Institute. Just last month he was named the recipient of the 2002 William inch cedar festival new voices award gratulations and thanks for being with us. Thank you with all your accolades. I don't know if you're going to be a new voice for much longer but playwrighting has a fairly narrow niche in writing and not want to necessarily bring in the big bucks.

What got you into it. I want to be a poet from high school through college I graduated college I hadn't really studied theater and it was my trip to Scotland. When I saw a Samuel Beckett festival and I went so poetry and theater have something to do with each other. And that's when I looked at notebooks later on I realized that I started writing little scenes in my journals at that point what I know about it now continues to draw me is that you write alone but when you do theater there's a social component there's a part that has to involve other people. And I love working alone yet I feel I need the social part and I mean I. Perhaps it's a lack of confidence but I really need to know whether the writing works or not. And with the poem and with the story. You're left wondering

what happened when you sit with an audience. You know what happened and you don't wait for a review to find out you feel it. You see it. So you're in a room. You're open that I mean in a way it's very vulnerable you have actors and directors who are interpreting your work. You open yourself up to readings before something even gets produced on the stage a lot of writers just couldn't stand that. I think learning how to deal with criticism is a part of a writer's skill. It's what you work on. And different writers regardless of the of the medium have a different threshold for it a different need for it. O'Neill apparently showed up at theaters and dropped off a script and said that's it. Don't change a word. And he could do that and I can't do that. I need to see what actors do with it. I need to know they're very they're very mechanical things to some extent plays meaning they work or they don't work. You're either ahead of me or behind me or lost by me and I can't know that without the

cycle of feedback and revision and a first draft is only one level of what needs to happen. You know then I have to start submerging deeper into those characters. Fixing the story because Story character has to happen at the same time. So I don't know I wouldn't know how to be O'Neill. So he's safe. How about dialogue. You really have do have a remarkable ear for language when I read your work. It's right there it is very authentic. How have you developed that here or how do you listen. It's a good thing. No one's there when I'm writing plays because I'm talking to myself the whole time. Sometimes unaware of it and I do write sometimes publicly and I catch myself mumbling and in restaurants and so on. I think it came from caring about poetry and hearing the rhythm. I love the way people speak and I pay attention to the way people speak. I love the false starts I love what's ugly about our language and how it's I love how people

accidentally say what they mean. Sometimes despite their effort to hide it. But I'm I often surprised myself by reworking a line that's that seems fine and I can't even tell what's wrong with it except it sounds wrong. And I think it comes down to a rhythm or rhythm or word choice issue that even for me it's a little subliminal but I I listen and then I get into rehearsal and then I know whether what I've been hearing is is translating because I hear it coming out of actors in a certain way. Right. Did did they sometimes change the dialogue. You know I can't I can't read this this way or is it there's an advantage to play writing. And it's that the answer is no they can't. You know a screenplay you sell your screenplay and they do what they want with it including bring in six other writers to write fix it. So it's the one place where where playwrights when as far as I'm concerned you're the boss of the

words. You're not the boss of the timing. And you're not the boss of what those lines ultimately mean. Because I love you can mean anything. The actor wants it to mean and I can put three dots in and ask for a pause I can put a comma and I can capitalize or underline I can I can go through contortions to try to get it to what I'm hearing. But they will do what makes sense to them. What they will do what allows them to see their way through the script. Last season you collaborated with Chris to write a stage adaptation of midwives for Vermont's stage it's a production that got great reviews by the way. There were some significant structural changes to that story how how does this kind of collaboration work and it was that OK when it was OK to Chris. Yeah. Therefore it was OK to me. I would love all my collaboration

with writers to be like that one because Chris basically said do whatever you need to do. And starting from that point what I needed to do was read that story until I knew it better than Chris. And there was a point there where I could tell Chris about structures and his story that he either couldn't remember or maybe even hadn't noticed because I had to be able to do let me see. Lot of people know how to have babies but not many people know how to go into the human organism like a surgeon and remove something without killing it or you know in such a way that it would help. So I had to know his story very very well in order to put it back together again in a way that it would still work. And I love that process it was really a treat and it's changed the way I think about writing in general now. I always start with a story if you can write it and then have the joy of piecing it together and and trying to find the right way to tell it. But with Chris's story so much is told through narration and so much is told over a great period of

time and in many locations with many characters. And just practically I knew I needed to cut back. It would take thirty five hours to read his book. You got to take two hours to watch my play. So the question of what stays and what goes is right at the beginning. And that I felt like a good English major to some extent was like OK I have to really do the side of all the things this book is doing. Of all the levels it's working on one of the ones that matter the most to me so that I can put some passion back into it and one of the ones that are going to translate and then you go say goodbye to so many things that you care about. But the major relationships in the story is very much there. Another thing just about that and a profile interview with Chris actually that will be airing next week. He said he's never really sure about the end his endings until he gets very close to there and I I had heard that midwives also your stage production the ending shifted very late.

They all or they all do endings are the endings are the only thing people seem to remember. You know they sit there for two hours but it's about the last minute and if the last minute strikes them as true satisfying perhaps surprising but in a way that seems inevitable. And if you can get that combination of things in the final moment you win. And otherwise they could have been happy. They could have been happy throughout the entire show and go off unsatisfied if you don't get that. And that's how I explain to me why it's so hard to write an ending because they matter so much because that's ultimately what you've said and you can people are happy to watch an argument but it really matters to them very much who wins how it ends. The same thing's happening with the big random Now we're a couple weeks away. And of all the things that might change I know that it's the ending as we watch the actors find it or not find it we watch the struggle we see whether the staging can do what the staging needs to do to deliver the story that we have in vision

because much of the story happens between lines and in movement and in the lining. You know what it what it means to people will have everything to do with the feel of the end which I try to put on a page right. But I also am only one of the collaborators who really decides what that final feeling is. So the big random is about to open and it sounds like Rehearsals are going well they are still up in the air about the ending. Well it's a love hate relationship between me and rehearsal. I would love to be there all the time because I'm so curious and I learned so much and yet it's really important I've discovered especially this time to get out of the room. What I compared to is do I want three people staring over my shoulder while I'm doing my work. No I couldn't do it under those circumstances. And they need to discover whatever they're going to discover. So I I'm a visitor. I come in to see a run of the first act. I speak only to the director. We have a new sort of protocol that

we've discovered. Tomorrow I get to see the full the first full run. And I know things will be discovered and changed at that point and part of what I'll be hearing whether it's. Through the actor's mouth in performance or through the director's mouth. It afterwards is. Here are the things we're running into here the moments that are it. You could say not working but in some cases it's this woman is working so well that you don't need this moment anymore. You know it might be that we're already there. So you don't have to take two more lines to hit us with it. So it's. It's a group painting that we're working on. I love rehearsal because I learn so much. But in this particular show and every show I ever have anything to do if I get my way right I always get to work with the actors before they go into rehearsal there's a development under it. And at that point it's really open season on the play anything they want to

say. I want to hear my job is to try to be smart about what I listen to and what I ignore or how I deal with the feedback. And that's why when we move into rehearsal. It's important that we set up new rules because they need to know ultimately that that script is going to move anywhere but that their job is to to make that work through it. And I need to know. But that's where they're putting their energy and they're not. Really writing with me anymore. Right right. In 1969 you wrote and performed a one eyed play called Jump cut. Commissioned by the Epilepsy Association of Vermont. Now this is good. God did I do that in 69 I hope not 1996. My God we're very very different. What. Did I say that. But anyway it's a very interesting piece of work about a man's attempt to record his memory through through video before an operation and it was intriguing and I would have never guessed it was a commission. So I'm wondering how is writing for

a commission different for writing your inspiration for a commission might mean different things. A commission might actually come before. You know would you write a play on this topic or it might come after an idea I go to somebody and I say I've got this idea. And if you like it enough you can. You can support me in writing at that jump cut was the second jump. It was an idea I had. I was working in video at the time. I got fascinated by the way video and mirrors memory how we use it for memory and how editing is a little bit like what the mind is being asked to do all the time and so on. And I had had epilepsy as a kid and I knew I was hearing more about surgery to refer to correct it. So the idea of sort of editing your mind with a knife. Captured me and I was at that point I went to the Epilepsy Association. What an idea. And said Can you help.

The only other commission the only commission I've had that came before the fact was one in which the play was being played was to be commissioned about land use in Vermont. And I approached that like a job I did. I read all the books they sent me I read a few more I propose a story. But it was in the process of trying to trying to be a good doobie. That I that I fell into a story that I really really want to tell which was mad which is a matter of a rising. Yeah. And in fact what I'm told by the people who commissioned it is. It wasn't my story it was my cover letter. That it sold them because I put a little bit of why this mattered to me right into it. So you lost this commission but you have a great play and indeed the land issue is there but it's also so much about so much more it's about family and roots and the elderly.

And I have to quote the play because Mae sums it up so beautifully. What we care for truly will truly care for us whether water or Sandor children or land. It's just it's just beautiful. And I read that Mad River rising was the first of your plays that your father saw produced. Yeah. And the play itself was influenced by his decision to let go of the New Hampshire family farm. What was his reaction. Not a demonstrative guy you know a New England from New England farm stock. I can't tell you the words because it wasn't really about the words it was kind of a look and a. And a and a hug that made me think I had. I'd succeeded a couple goals one was to tell a story that was not his story but that came from his that he could see the truth in. It. And one that would. That would not judge him too harshly because when you see yourself on stage this happen to my mother a few

times it's not a pleasant thing. And even when the person you see on stage has only three things in common with you and 12 things not. I had to say to my mother Mom have you ever walked around the house bouncing in a sleeping bag because that woman on stage you think was you for sleeping bag for most of the show. It was one of my early work I think. And yet that is that's a tough distinction for someone to make when they think they're when they think they're on stage. Oddly maybe this is for the shrink to talk to me about but I. I made him. I did not make him a character I made his father a character and his son a character and left him out. He was the missing the missing guy in that play. But what I remember guiding me in that play was the sense that if my father could come and see this play I will know that I've written a play on this topic that is available to the audience I want it to be well meaning people who've never seen the show before right. It's when I try to

write theater that doesn't require a theater major. And at the same time I hope that people who study theater and wonder about it and go to too much of it like me will come and feel fully engaged too. Right. Well certainly I think your work rings very true. Tell us about the Vermont young playwrights project that you founded now it's on the Internet. And I guess you're the director of for my young playwrights online. How are you getting kids interested in playwriting as a thing to do one and how does that work on the Internet. All you have to do to get kids interested in playwriting is give them time to write a play and give them an excuse to write a play because they are taught to write poems they're taught to write stories they're taught to write. Nonfiction but nobody teaches them how to write plays so when I when I show up for one of the other playwrights and our program shows up it's new to them and they have tons of experience to the

extent that they have watched hours and hours of drama and comedy. Whether it's television or film. They talk about them all the time. They analyze them maybe not at a. At a at some level you know and not at a structural level but they know what they like and what they don't like. Yeah. And more importantly I think in terms of really hitting a nerve with kids is it's one of the first times they've been able to write where. There's really no right and wrong on some level meaning your speech. If I write down what if I write down what a character says and the grammar is wrong if it's accurate for that character the grammar is right right. So it makes certain allowances for people who haven't had success at writing and very frequently in fact you can almost predict that that in a group of 15 or 20 kids we go and we go into twenty six schools around the state we meet that many kids in each school. Somebody is going to come out of nowhere and surprise that teacher and just this kid has never had a successful writing experience. Some of it

comes from the fact that they're not writing for the teacher anymore. Their friends are going to read this out loud and they're going to sit there and go I wrote that or I just made some people laugh or they didn't know I had that in me. So I think it's it's to me it's like missionary writing to some extent meaning you go out into the outback and you introduce people to this form that they don't think they're familiar with but they're all primed to do. And then there's even the possibility that this might go to the showcase where professional actors are actually performing these plays written by young people. The truth of the program is that if a if a student engages genuinely with the medium of playwriting and they have a semi successful. First try when you add good actors to that something magical will happen because the actors will find that good. And I've watched these moments. There's there been right there have been plays that I would just be happy to erase their name put my name on and send out. But there are other

plays that come in because each school sends a play. Sometimes you get some plays and you are a little embarrassed about them it's like you know there's some attitude that's not PC in here or there's something very unsophisticated about this and we've got a drug play once this was a play where an actor had to stand up and stand in full seriousness go. Don't do drugs. About five times after little mini scenes and watching the absolute conviction with which the actor did that every time you know it would've been easier for him to sort of mock it. You know I'm going to do this before I'm going to save myself by making a joke out of this. I don't really believe the character would say this but every time it's a Vermont actor named Ethan BOWEN Every time Ethan stood up to do this he did it with such conviction because he was so committed to that playwright and their work and just to honoring a first attempt. It was a good play under those circumstances and it was a really engaging play. Actually one thing I want to go back to the big random for a second.

It has this young girl. It's kind of a coming of age piece. And this man now your children are in their teens I believe. Did did they help you out at all with this dialogue or the attitude or. It's a revenge play. It's my revenge against teenagers for the gray hairs that they've given me. I've decided it comes from my experience of being a parent. I have an older son and I have a 20 year old son and a 7 year old daughter. But I work with young people all the time. I spend most of my when I'm not writing. I'm mostly with young people whether it's college or high school. And I guess it brings in the I set this these characters out there in part because of my concern. I start to feel like we've. I think I know what the big random means now. I figure that out just a couple days ago. Which is handy one is the title for your play. I think we send our teenagers out into the big random and that we put them

into a culture that has almost no culture where there's there's very little to say. Come this way there's very little structure to rebel against and we and that's the curse of the baby boomers that's what we've given our young people and. I want this play to be about that. So I put somebody of somebody from the baby boomer generation who's got lots to feel bad about in the way he's handled his life now but has a good heart together with a troubled smart. Young girl. And some of that was just you know like a kid wanting to see what happens when you put two animals in a box together what you know and where do they go and what and what comes up for them. But I think I do relate it to some extent back to young playwrights because I. I find out on an annual basis what is. Boiling in in young people. It comes out in those plays Yeah. And some years it's all about

communication with parents. Some years it's about coming out. Some years. I guess it's never one theme per year I but we put the the actors on there and I get the sensibility of one year you know these are about this actually and most of those are short works a list. There's another question about you written short works there's kind of a gruesome Helen at risk in the amusing man and he took lots of plays that you've written for for you as well as full length plays. Is there a different challenge for those forms or is there one that you prefer more than the other. Any play I'm working on is my favorite play at the time and it's the most difficult thing I've ever done. So I don't think there's any difference to writing for younger people except that I probably have less idea what my audience is really like. I mean I'm I probably stand a bigger a bigger chance of missing the mark when I'm trying to write for someone who's 30 years younger than me but I. If it's worth their time to see it it's only going to be worth their time because I

have completely engaged myself in the effort. To take them somewhere. What's your next project. What are you working on that. It's sad that I am so myopic but I can only think about one thing because I could be more productive if I could do it the other way. There's a play that's been. Haunting me for a few years. Maybe it's the idea that I would really like to write what anybody would in their right mind call a comedy something that's just plain comic and doesn't get all weird and dark and go to these other places that I seem to go to just very quickly is there a screenplay writing and in your career if there's a screenplay it's back to young people and it's back to a sort of I were bound in upstate New York where I picture I picture the the the teacher you love and you wish you had really struggling against some troubled kids.

Sounds great for them and you Danny and thank you so much for being here. The Vermont stage production of daily Etan's the big random opens April 24th and runs through May 5th at the flan space in Burlington and the young playwrights. The symposium as May 13th through the 14th at Royal Tyler. So thank you for being with us and join us next week for crisper down. The

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