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You You Welcome to Black Horizons. I'm your host Chris Moore. Thanks for joining us.
On tonight's show we're going to talk with a group of Pittsburghers who like all of us are dealing with the personal and public aftermath brought on by the tragic events of September 11. Though it's been nearly a month since the hijackings, the aftershocks of the September 11 attacks are affecting all of us. The sudden violent deaths of thousands of men and women have left a world of turmoil, mistrust and unanswered questions. Joining us tonight to talk about those repercussions and the many ways they've touched the various members of our community are Farouk Hussaini, Director of Interfaith Relations at the Islamic Center of Pittsburgh. John Macharia McCoy, a co-founder of the Black Vietnam era veterans. Dr. Jack Daniel, Vice Provost of Academic Affairs at the University of Pittsburgh. Rick Butler and Jonathan Jones, Student Counselors from Youthplace and Attorney Lisa Freeland, a board member of the American Civil Liberties Union. Thank you all for joining us. We appreciate it. Dr. Daniel, I want to start with you.
You've been a media critic for a while and I know you've looked at the sociology of Black folk who sometimes have to go off the war. And you feel that there's a terrible duality that we have to face in representing this country and also facing down discrimination that's occurred among against African Americans in this country. Absolutely. And the psychological disposition that puts you in, at least for me, is this strategy silenced me, so to speak. It silenced me because I was afraid that I might say something that in some way with sound as though I was irreverent to this country that I love as much as anyone else. Do you mean like the chickens have come home to roots? Precisely. I actually all but sent prayer out to say, I hope no African Americans say something such as the chickens came home to roots. Because, you know, so many of us have spent our lives trying to get justice in this country for African Americans.
Yet at the same time for all of the injustices that have been heaped upon us, we too love America. And as faithful to this country as anyone else. Yet we know deep down within side of us from our daily living experiences, all kinds of injustices. And so when this happened, at least for me, you can't help but say, okay, I know there's some ism, someology, some world view up underneath all of this. But at the same time, the concept of the ugly American has not gone away. And yet I was afraid to say something like that because to just mere mention ugly American at the time of a tragedy like this, she whizzed. Maybe he's part of the problem. Or I was afraid that for any African American to make any kind of comment that was sound as though we were less than patriotic. So for example, I work at the university in one of my roles. I have to deal with the phenomena of profiling of Middle Eastern students.
And people were calling me. I was getting so many calls about profiling incidents. And yes, I was attending to them. And yes, absolutely under no circumstances when I prevented the profiling of anyone. And at the same time, I had to hold my tongue and not say welcome to my world. Farouk Hussein, I wonder if you feel that same double standard. You are an American of Middle Eastern background. But I wonder if you feel that same double standard that African Americans feel in wanting to support the country but knowing that all the indicators are pointing to the Middle East as the perpetrators of this event. At least that's what the government tells us. And then there's also the issue that Dr. Daniel raises of profiling. How do you feel about both of those? Well, after the September 11th tragedy, yes, we are in the same boat. We are having the same problem. I mean, the problem is, up till now, being the citizen of this country, I never had a problem. I felt I am part of this. I can do whatever I want to do. Now I have to look at my shoulders to who's watching me.
With all the things that I do, I pay taxes, I work hard, my money is in 401k, I'm concerned about the Social Security. Everything, the problems that other Americans have, I have the same problem intentions. But then to look at you and say, you don't belong here. And even though in Pittsburgh, we didn't have many more instances like this. But the instances that we had over here are the same thing. People looking at you and say, get back. Go back to where you come from. And that gives you a feeling of very helplessness. Has that happened to you personally? Personally, I got looks. Because before people say anything, I say, how are you doing? God bless you. Because I'm very proactive in my approach. So people look at me and that down, but never happened to me in that situation, because I'm very proactive in this. But the people who suffer are very painful. Their suffering is so, I mean, they're crying that are not living houses. I mean, is that painful?
Attorney Lisa Friedland, as a board member of the ACLU, what is your approach to this whole issue of profiling? There's a lot of talk now about profiling people of Arab or Muslim faith, Arab descent or Muslim faith. And I wonder what your take is on all of this. Well, the ACLU here in Pittsburgh has the ACLU throughout the country is against racial profiling of anyone and was before September 11th. Although I think now we are facing a difficult situation, and Dr. Daniel talked about it a bit, because there is this increased attention now to Arab Americans and others of Arab descent in this country for profiling. And there's a great outpouring from people at the ACLU and in other communities standing up now and saying, this is wrong, this is very wrong. And there are people in the black community here that are saying, well, where were you when it was happening to us two weeks ago? And now having to balance this larger issue with what we can consider a localized flare-up, it's causing a lot of hard feelings on communities in different areas that need to now come together, I think, and discuss how we can address these problems on a larger scale, not just in the instance of the African Americans and the Arab Americans in the last few weeks. I want to show you how real this is. Just days ago, 5.30 in the morning, I'm walking for exercise.
The police car comes. It puts a spotlight on me. They demand to know my name. They ask me to move closer. It's dark. It's a white policeman. I am fighting to death. I said, oh my god. This man shoots me out here. I'm out in the wooded area. All I was doing was walking. The week before that, it's dark. I go to my mailbox. I stick my key in the mailbox. The police come. They put the spotlight on me. What are you doing? What's your name? I go, and I have to withdraw my key from the mailbox very slowly and say, I'm getting my mail, and then I got a turn slowly, otherwise I'm going to say I have a gun, and I have to show my key, and all I was doing was getting my mail. It's in that sense that it's like a terrible burn. I don't want to lay my profile and incidents on anyone. What I really want you to know is that I could get killed and you could get killed. It is not new, and there's a deep thing in this country that we have to address. Yes. Those people who specifically did what was done in New York and Washington, they must be addressed.
But there's a much, much bigger thing that also has to be addressed. I think one thing worth pointing out, if I can, is that the investigation that's been done on racial profiling so far has shown that it is not the best way to go about finding the individuals that perpetrated these offenses. Is there a better way? I mean, for example, with African Americans have been targeted in this country as drug traffickers often and are stopped on our nation's highways at airports all over the country, and the statistics have shown that you're no more likely to find a drug trafficker by stopping an African American, then you are stopping someone of another race. We have to take the lessons that we've learned from that type of profiling and apply it to this situation and know that just because somebody looks like they may be Middle Eastern or they may in fact be from Iraq or Syria or Egypt or one of the countries that we're looking at more specifically, that there's no more chance of there being the terrorist. Then some other individual, we have to go back to relying on intelligence and information and traditional law enforcement tools that are available to the government right now.
We've got more than 500 people in custody in the last three weeks in this country alone over 150 and other 20 and 30 countries around the world. The tools are working and they do not need to result to racial profiling to solve these types of crimes. Is there any known incidence of racial profiling after it was discovered that Timothy McVey was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing of the Marrow Building where white men racially profiled when they discovered it was E and Mr. McNichols? Absolutely not to the contrary what happened is immediately after the bombing Arab Americans were targeted in around Oklahoma City and throughout the country because people believe that this is something that could only be perpetrated by Arab Americans. And that is our problem and our I believe what we need to do is we need to educate the public so that they understand that somebody's race, religion, ethnicity is not inappropriate tool to determine whether they're involved in criminal activity. There are other ways to do it.
I don't understand the situation in 95 and the Oklahoma situation happened tragedy. I or any amount of my friends never thought it didn't enter our mind that all whites, all whites, young men are terrorists. Then what is it in many whites man that all Arabs, Egyptians, Muslims no matter what country they come from. Actually I don't know. It is something in the heart or something in the psyche. I mean we have to look into it because now I mean you're talking about those countries, people of those countries who came here from the 30, 40 years, they left those countries, sacrificed everything to come here to establish themselves, they are law abiding citizens. They gave away everything to come here and now they are being told in fact indirectly they don't belong here. It is very bad situation. I mean people in here in Pittsburgh, they are people who are not living their houses. Women are scared to leave their houses. I mean at the Islamic Center we are having consular talking to them, individual and groups. It is very difficult and people who understand what we are going through.
And we were not ready for all this. We didn't know what to do with this situation. And suddenly it was thrown at us and even with all the due respect of the mayor and county, you know, executive and all the coming and saying we are with you, don't worry about it. But the general population over here needs to be taken care of. Otherwise we are having a big problem ahead of us in future. All right, let's talk about profiling with these two young men also because you guys have a uniform on now, the baggy pants, the braids, the twisted hair that might lead you to be profiled for something else. Have any of those things ever happened to you guys? I mean I know me personally, it's happened. I mean it's something that really it's like I've grown and like lived with it. I mean I'm so used to it now that it's like I just try to stay out of situations where I know that I'll be profiled or stay out of that way from places. Like I know like simply when I'm driving, like I know I sometimes work with kids. A lot of the kids always want to take us here. And I mean it might be three kids and I know that makes us four people in a car.
So I know sometimes like I try to stay away from those situations where it's like I don't you know I don't like riding with four people in my car. If I got three people in my car, two people in my back seats, sometimes I'm worried because I know once cops get behind me they immediately think that you know there's something else going on besides that's just going to a football game or a basketball game. And that's what Lisa was talking about earlier. Where was everybody when this issue only affected young guys like Jonathan and Rick. Jonathan you want to say something? I think most of the sometimes or on the Islamic point of view is that TV. You know sometimes TV like the other day I was watching CBS how these young girls were seeing has been landing as their hero. So people see that and they see that they're only a minority in this country. So they think we're very few people in this country have just a problem. So we have a problem with them because they're so small and we don't see them that much. And usually like when you walk in out of street, I don't usually speak to any of them or have anything to say or agree. So that's like if they do something to us in this country or automatically scared. Okay, what are all bad? They're all just bad.
It's the same way they look at you and anybody with your hair braided like that. Me personally it happens like when I go to a store maybe 7-11. But how does that make you feel if they're doing it to Arabs and they're doing it to you because you're young and your hair is braided. It makes me it makes me someone feel like why should I go to war? You know why should I put my life on the line. I'm 20 and Rick you're 22. You guys are facing this and you're also youth counselors who deal with people who are 5-6 years younger than you. Are they asking you questions about going to war? You know someone because of their family backgrounds they're really like thinking it's just a government thing. They don't have usually someone talking to them about what's going on. So you know they really think it's a government thing. The government's going to handle this. We have nothing to do with this. I don't know but love you around 15-16 years old and if this war does last on maybe 2-3 years down the line they're going to be accountable for getting drafted. If it's that serious and they really don't really know how to draft this.
I know a lot of kids who I talk to it's like I mean in a way they really don't care because it's like they let me like their views are I'll rather go to jail. You know what I'm saying I got a fight going on right here when I'm at home. Why would I go way over there to fight a fight. I feel like I'll never know the full reason for what we're fighting for. I mean I think there's so many like hidden secrets and things that will never know. So I know a lot of kids what I talk to really. It's not even going through their head like a serious thought because to them as soon as they start speaking and they know like I'd rather go to jail than go fight. You're a combat veteran a Marine from Vietnam. When you were Rick and Jonathan's age did you have those same double standard feelings of the young people that they counseled or did you decide I'm going to go and defend America. I think that the comments just made is an excellent segue. I grew up with war what is a good for absolutely nothing. When I went to Vietnam I was 18 years old and I went by ship. Now when I left the United States it was riding in the streets. I was in Los Angeles. It was riding in the streets.
The assassination of the president assassination of attorney general assassination of Mark Martin Luther King Malcolm X. So there was a war going on at home. And then they sent me abroad to fight another war which again I had no clue of our intent the reason that we were there. Interestingly enough with all of this fervor in terms of patriotism and going into the military I've been working in veteran services for the last 17 years. I have homeless veterans. I have veterans that can't get benefits. I have veterans that are unemployed. This is a myriad of things that veterans are experiencing. And so my question certainly would be what is the motivation to go into the military and defend another war that the United States have the propensity for involving themselves in. It's always someone else's conflict. We lost 58,000 plus in Vietnam young men and women black white of our nationalities to fight a war that ultimately we didn't win.
And then the residual from that is we're always veterans now. Can they sustain themselves now? They have to battle every day at the Veterans Administration to get benefits that should be entitled to them as being soldiers in the country. African Americans have participated in every conflict America has ever had with the highest honor the highest valor. And then once they got back home they reverted back to being second class. So then you're not surprised that the young people that Rick and Jonathan Council may have an attitude of it's not my fight and I'm not going. I'm not surprised at all. Do you think it's unpatriotic to tell them don't go given what you know and how veterans are treated? When we talk about patriotism I think that the first thing that has to happen is that we have to do some internal analyzing. We have to actually start to think for ourselves. The effects of 9-1-1 are literal. We look at TV we see the plane flying to the building and the only thing that we see is the literal perspective of a plane flying into a building.
We have to become cognitive. Why does it occur? Is it something that we've done? We as a country. Is it something that we've done? Have we somehow now the mistreated someone to the extent that they would carry out this type of an action? If we're not going to weigh it, if we're not going to balance and look at the entire picture in this context then we're blinded by let's go get them. I mentioned earlier before we started that traditionally black people's response to abuse and racism and mistreatment was we will overcome and we all joined hands and we sang. But now that we've been touched, it's killing. Let's go get them. I think that we should defend ourselves. I think that we should always have some type of defense that we just wouldn't allow anything to happen to us.
But we need to look at the reasons and ramifications that would initiate this type of a conflict. I appreciate what you refer to as the balance and I appreciate your courage to, in my opinion, speak the truth. I saw a thing on network television recently. A series of people said, I am an American, I am an American and they had people of all races, colors, backgrounds and so forth. What I don't want to happen is for this tragedy to be an occasion for us to gloss over a lot of very deep problems inside this country. For example, if we were to say right now in the face of this tragedy, let us pray. Now, if the only prayer we can pray is to the Christian God, I have a problem with that. If I dare pray to Allah, I'm now suspect. I'm reading the newspaper this past weekend. There's a full page spread of Uncle Sam. He's tall, he's white, he's blonde. I don't even want to sound like anything close to Michael talking about pale, blonde, blue eyes and so forth.
But yet, in the presence of this tragedy, when they show us Uncle Sam who wants you, look at who they show you. And so you can't help but feel something to say, you know what? Even in the midst of tragedy, the same old, same old is still out here. I don't want to say something, brother, much red has said about how we don't know what the reason was. I feel like we'll never know the reasons fully on to why. I mean, what they did was, you know, a bit extreme to me, but I mean, it's like until I'm not going to fight for something that I don't know the full reasons why the reasons behind it. We don't know what this country did to those people. In the military, if yours is not the reason why, yours is what to do or that. So we get caught up into a patriotic mode where we don't question what, what we should do or why we should even do it. Once you get into the military, your life is not your own anymore. They say, make a left, you make a left. I mean, that's the condition of the military.
But in terms of volunteering for those conditions, I think you need to be armed with knowledge. Is it relevant to me? I mean, if I'm fighting for the safeguarding of my country, then sure, let's get it on. Again, as I reflected on this, I reflected on the wars that have occurred and found out that there's always been this assistance in other countries to facilitate one group against another. So we're talking about that right now, the Northern Alliance and Afghanistan, according to all that I read, are just as ruthless, just as me, and just as evil, as the Taliban. And now we're talking about supporting them. So who are we replacing one for the other? There's a list of them, Chris. And how many are going to die in the cause? It's the conscious in the Santa Nistus. It's North Vietnam against South Vietnam. It's North Korea against South Korea. It's the two seas against the Hutus. The Hutus. I mean, there's always this division of another country. And then we get called in to resolve, assist, one faction against another, and we lose people.
58,000 veterans we lost in Vietnam. Russia has taken a position. We will give you intelligence information. We'll give you eight of them. But we send in new people. We're not going back. We have been there in Afghanistan. For example, they see the sad story people don't understand what happened to Afghanistan. The people of Afghanistan fought for us. We defeated Russia without even a drop of blood of an American soldier. More than a million people died. More than a million people are handicapped. They can't walk and all this stuff. 5,000 plus women are widowed. Those are the numbers. And the cities are, you think, power like Russia will go and say, okay, we'll leave this country without anything. They destroyed everything. So they want the war for us. And nothing was our man. All these people were our people. We gave him money. His company made bases in Saudi Arabia for us.
And he was the recruiting person for CIA to go around the world and recruit people to come and fight. Now he stood against us. But now what about the people of Afghanistan? I mean, we haven't done any martial plan or anything like that for Afghanistan. Lisa, the power of dissenting voices. The ACLU has always, no matter who they are, run to their defense and they are right to say these things. Now in America, we are hearing stories of journalists who have raised dissent and are not marching off in lockstep to war, being fired from their jobs for not towing the party line. Is it un-American to speak out against the kinds of things? For instance, that Farouk was talking about, to talk about these numbers, to talk about America's history. It's recent foreign policy. And say, is this a just war to go off and defend? Well, it's absolutely not un-American. It's the most American thing that we could do. That is what separates us from the countries that we criticize, is people's ability to speak their mind, protest peacefully, and participate in government.
So the idea that people would be punished, if not harmed physically, for voicing dissent is very, very un-American. And one of the things that concerns the ACLU in particular is with the laws that are currently proposed, that the definition of terrorism is so broad and could be used to prosecute criminally people who take to the streets and oppose military action. And they want fewer restrictions for war to happen, and those kinds of things too, how do they see what you feel about that? There's certainly a lot of proposals that are on the table right now, some of which we support, many of which we don't, because, for the very reason that you've pointed out, because they do not provide for public dissension, for public discussion and deliberation. And we can't have, you know, we've got two young men here who may at some point be asked to go off and fight on behalf of the United States who are telling us today that they don't know what they're fighting for, and they don't know what our government has in stake in this proposed war.
And that's exactly why we need to have people who dissent, people in Congress who speak openly about the proposals that are on the table, so that if we are to go to war, we have a good idea of what we're fighting for, and the majority of the American people support that. Just to piggyback on that, the president made the statement that you either with us or against us, which is dichotomous and is in its nature. So you don't, there's no thought process, you either, if you don't agree with us, then you're against us, that's not true. Well, we're strong because we have a system that provides for constant devil's advocacy and checks and balances. People like you and me can stand up and say, we think this wrong, and this is why, and that's what makes us stronger. And with all of the flag waving that's going on and the patriotism that's out there right now, the strength of America is not the ability to put a flag on your card. It's the values and the principles that we stand for, and that's the ACLU's concern, is that as we reactively respond to the attacks of three weeks ago, that we lose sight of what really makes us America, and that we lose that as well.
Jonathan, as a young man, do you feel like you have enough information to know that if they were to re-institute the draft, and you were drafted, that you would go off and serve, or would you become a conscientious objector, that do you feel like the information is there for you to make that decision? What would you do? I don't think I will go personally. Why not? Because I really don't believe in more for one thing, and I don't know enough information. I really don't know what is going on, why the terrorist attacks are happening. Does it have anything to do with money? Do we own anybody money, or are we helping people against Afghanistan? I just don't know, and I'm confused at a time, as Fitch, if they just wanted me to go to training and just to go out there. In a way I'm treated back home, that has something to do with it too. Rick, you feel the same way? I'll just go.
Definitely. I think about it a lot, because I know I was just joking with somebody the other day, and we were talking about how, when they got you, when you got assigned a little draft course, you can go to school and everything, you never think that it's a possibility. Now that it is for me, it's actually a possibility. I mean, all the little jokes and things I made back then when I was 18, when I was signing those things were coming true. Now it's like, I honestly already thought. I mean, I wouldn't go. John, and make it so bad, you know, I have got a lot of questions, like you were asking about our kids asking, I have a lot of questions of kids asking, are we going to get drifted? I don't know if I'm signed up for selective service. And as soon as you get a job, and you're paying taxes, you automatically signed up, and most of them do not know that. Even though you're 20 and 22, you guys are counselors. You're talking to these young kids, and you're advising them too. These are kids that have seen some of the hard knocks of life. They've seen death. A lot of them are close and personal. I can remember, John, I think I don't want to see one guy down to corner when I was growing up before I went to Vietnam, but these people have seen their friends die.
What do you guys tell them about this and the possibility of war and the certain death and destruction of it? I just tried to tell the kids who I'm talking to, like basically look at what's happening right in front of you first. You know, don't just jump into anything that you feel as though you got to do because you finished high school or you feel as though, you know, there's no other pathways for you to take. I mean, I try to make the decision for them, you know, so I don't let my views wear on them. I mean, if it's something that they want to do, that's something they have to do for themselves. But I mean, I think I do try to get them to strong. We look at, you know, what's happening right around the corner from you every day and what's happening right outside your house before they just jump into something that they really don't know enough about. I would like more like kids to understand how serious politics is in America and how serious this is and they usually don't know. And like me, I want to know what's the problem and don't just go to war if you don't know the problem.
Do you advise them to vote to get politically active? Yeah, I advise people to vote because vote is very important. We have a president in there now. Vote is very important. But go ahead, but usually know the politics and now serious politics. I try to get myself in the politics when I was younger. I really didn't think much about politics or just nothing. It's very serious. It runs the country. Okay, let's talk. I'm sorry, John. I'm just reminded that with the stroke of a pen, our president was able to sign a bill that secured 40 billion. For the campaign against terrorism. With the same stroke of a pen, he could have secured 20 billion prior to 9-11 on my way over here. There was a guy laying on the sidewalk outside the fences of a elementary school laying on the sidewalk. Kids is outside playing in the yard. He's laying out on the ground. Now, why we got homeless folks in a country that can with the stroke of a pen allocate 40 billion dollars.
So if we're not going to take care of our people as a proactive approach, then you want us to do a reactive approach without conscience. Okay, let's talk about the media for a second. Dr. Daniel, I know you have been a critic of the media and how it is treated black folk. I wonder how you think the media has performed doing this whole crisis since September 11th. Are we getting the straight scoop? Are we getting the news? Are they parroting what the government wants us to hear? Have they managed to demonize a whole people so that we march off waving the flag and the war? What's going on in terms of media performance? Well, I think I almost want to say all of the above. I would say look at some of the symbols that have become the almost new sacred icons. There's a picture that looks just like the sands of Iwajima when the soldiers go up and take the flag. And you see certain policeman, you see certain farmer again. This is the dilemma that I have about this in a sense of, look, a tragic thing happened to those people who went there to help rescue people.
But at the same time, when you finally do show, look who you chose to show, look who you choose to make the symbol. Maybe it's a little bit deeper than that because I noticed this going in when they showed the firefighters who had lost their lives and they talked to the guys who were off and it lost whole companies of that sort of thing. And they showed them they were all white. And I said, gee, where is there no black firefighters fight is there. And I'm sure there must have been some that were there, but they showed one Hispanic that I saw. And it made me think to before then, well, who's getting the jobs? And they talked about where my dad was a firefighter and his dad was a firefighter. And I started thinking, well, no wonder no black firefighters might be shown going into the building and that because they were not going into the building. And that's because they couldn't get the job.
Now you have to suppress all of this thinking because if you don't, then you're just a one track, one dimensional type person. Or take you ask about the media. There's another very famous picture now. It shows some people from another country. I forget where they were. But allegedly, they were dancing in the street in praise of what happened in this country. Why would that have to be shown? And why wasn't that perceived to be inflammatory? How could that be anything other than inflammatory? And now we're concerned with whether or not you get profile, but whether or not you got profile depended in part, the extent to which there's almost a stimulus response reaction to showing those people who were dancing. And we don't know what they were dancing about. As I understand, that particular photo was from the end of, I believe it was the Gulf War. Yes. That wasn't even the picture. That's what happened. After the tragedy. I mean, BBC and German television had a full footage of that saying, this is the wrong picture. To show that picture at a time, whoever took the decision, is so sad for this country. But that helps to demonize a whole people.
But why do you want to do that if you don't go to war? But if you cannot do justice, let's really address this. It's because it's more than go to war. If you demonize a whole people, how much has the media talked about social security since then? How much have they talked about the president's tax packages? How much have they talked about education? Or any of the issues that Brother Macharia has brought up about being proactive in helping the homeless. 40% of the veterans, 40% of the homeless are Vietnam veterans. Yes. It's amazing. These people have been the war, paid the price for their country, and as Macharia says, can't get anything. So it's beyond demonizing a people. It's getting people to forget about everything else and march off to war. Maybe forget there's a recession on it. See, the young brothers are over here. Who see these pictures? And as they say, they cannot, they don't know the whole details about it. But people like me who have to look into detail and to find out what's happening.
How could people dance like this? Because first of all, Muslims in Islam, I mean 1.3 billion Muslims, condemn this type of activities. Islam doesn't do this type of things. And we are supposed to stand for a funeral of a person who's not even a Muslim as a marital respect. We'll be jumping with joy. I don't think that is possible. But the problem is, who should we go to? Who should we tell? Why did you do this? And the damage is done. I mean, people who don't know the facts, like Brother Seth, and if you don't know the facts, then you are saying all these guys are terrible. So no amount of corrective talk can reverse the feelings that those pictures have already answered. That's right. It is in the heart. And if I talk to you, now if you have this picture in your heart, a brown guy dancing, you relate that with me, and whatever love I give to you, you throw it away. Amen.
Thank you very much. I mean, there are a lot of stories that are not being covered now. There are all kinds of forms of terrorism. Many young children, every day, when they go to the thing called the public schools, they go into similar war zones. They're needles on the ground. Somebody could do them in a drive-by. This is going on every day inside this country. That too is terrorism. I don't want to deflect attention from this, but I want that terrorism covered too. And it's not covered. And I certainly would be remiss if I didn't say, I really haven't got it with a big boat ride. You mean when you went to Vietnam? No, the first big boat ride. Oh, that big boat ride, okay. We got a hundred million Africans laying at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. That was terrorism. That was terrorism. But the United States says that they can't even declare that as a crime against humanity. They refuse to go to the racism conference in Durban. And then all of this happens, and all of a sudden we hear.
Well, let's forget about all our petty little differences where all Americans are. Are you saying you don't trust them? Well, on that, let's just look at it like this. There was a world conference on racism and reparations. Actually, the United States should have hosted that. But nevertheless, they walked out and Israel walked out. We have 9-1-1, and the United States is calling for an international cooperation. There's some ambiguity in that. You won't go to the world conference, but you want international cooperation. If America is not going to look in the mirror, at the man in the mirror, then we'll be doomed to continue this effort and repeat this for generations to come. We got to look inside, check our foreign policy, check our national policy. Find out what we're doing for our people. The idea that we have to pay for education is ludicrous. The idea that we have to pay for medical care is ludicrous. Wouldn't you want your people healthy?
I mean, that $40 billion would have gone a long way toward education. Well, people would say that would be socialism. Would you advocate socialism? Well, I didn't say what's in the name. We used those names. Our president came up with the word crusade. And in his effort to be... To rally the truth. But took very little time to research what crusade meant to people of color. The 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th century. When they heard the word crusade, they went bonkers. Even the people in the support of the United States, when they heard the word crusade, because they understand crusade. He quickly stepped back. They declared infinite justice. Well, infinite justice is something God does. One faux pas after another. Not to mention that the Wild West mentality of, as you said before,
is with us or without us. We want them dead or alive. Those kinds of things. There have been a huge number of verbal guests that the president and any of his handlers have allowed him to commit. They don't support rallying every American behind them. And I wonder how you felt for Rukh about some of those statements about crusade and infinite justice. You see Muslims and people of all the Arab countries over there. The word crusade is like, wow, what are you talking about? Because they had a lot of Muslims, always had a lot of respect for Christians. And when Christians came to take Jerusalem and killed all the Jews and Muslims over there, they said, these are people of the book. They couldn't make it out what's happening. And the second thing is infinite justice. We think only God can do justice. Infinite justice. We are supposed to be just in all our dealings. These are, I mean, you're talking, you're fighting with these people and with the same words. In a way, you're lumping all these people together.
We call Muslims use infinite justice for God only. So you say, we are doing infinite justice. You say, oh, here you go again. But the problem is, I can give a benefit of God to the President and to the administration because they are going through a very serious turmoil. But you see, your hearts have to be clean. You should do justice. I mean, we are a country whose, which is very powerful today. In history, today is, you know, this country is the most powerful. Now, how we take every step is very important. We can go bomb Afghanistan out of, I mean it won't exist. Nobody can, but that does not work. But, that's what it looks like. But it almost doesn't exist now. People talk about bombing it back into the Stone age. The Russians, the Russians. The Russians have already done that. Yeah. People are eating grass, I have read, let's try to survive. The refugees who are going there... And I don't know if it was you who talked about creative solutions or creative thinking. And one of the best I've heard is, instead of bombing them with bombs,
we should bomb them with butter. butter, fresh fruit. We should bomb them with rice and beans and flour so that people can see what they're at, bomb them with magazines so they can see some of those people don't have radio, television, electricity. They have no idea that buildings are as tall as the world trade center, let alone someone flew planes into them. And if we show them a different way of doing things, then perhaps they can be one to our cause in terms of peace, justice, democracy and all the things. Look as to Bush talk. People forget, people really forget that when there were two world powers, Soviet Union and the United States, the whole Muslim world, including all the Arab world, looked, the masses I'm talking about, not the governments, masses looked to the United States because United States believe in God we trust. And we looked at so what it says on the money. On Soviet Union because they're Godless people. I mean, the love for this country was there. But now, I mean, people, even general people
of Afghanistan, if they look, if they know who we are, they will love us. But if you use this very serious terms like crusades and we are going to do infinite justice, we are going to bomb your out of the place, people are going to turn towards you. There'll be many more terrorism acts we're taking, again and again, because people in the world look for justice and we have to provide justice. And if we don't, if we fail to provide justice, this will not end. Thanks for feeling it. I wonder what you think of how this situation has been handled by the administration so far. And we've talked about this. We touched on some of the things like the call for reduced civil liberties, the expansion of CIA powers is one that we have not discussed. And all the things that have happened, including what appears so far at the time of this taping on this Tuesday at airs on the second of October, and by the time this airs a couple of times this month, who knows what will have happened. But
at this point, no large scale bombing has occurred, even though people have been rounded up. What do you think of the way the administration has handled this so far? Well, I think it's been a mixed bag. And part of my criticism would be is that I think that we are totally reactive, that we have not been proactive in the past. And we lack imagination quite frankly. We would have known not to use the term crusade if we had taken the time to learn about other nations in the world. We would know what things, we would know, for example, what to do in Afghanistan to win the hearts and the minds of the people there. If we had any notion of what was going on in the rest of the world, and I think that my concern is that we react too quickly, and we have a history in this country which we should be able to learn from, and know that quick reactions to big problems like this, we have not, we've come up short in the past.
What would you do differently? Well, for example, I think that some of the provisions that are now on the table in Congress, for example, more, the CIA, which has previously not been able to investigate American citizens, has primarily been focused on foreign nationals, would now turn its attention towards American citizens. But they are already doing that. They have something called Project Eschalan where we can listen to the Australians, the Australians can listen and monitor our phones and emails, and they report to one another. So there are ways to skirt that kind of law, the British, the Australians, the Canadians, all of them involved in it, and we listen to them and report to their government, they listen to us and report to our government, there are ways around all those frank churches and myths. The difference is, Chris, is that all of the things that have been in existence in the past have been focused on national security threats from outside of our country. And now we're talking about focusing that same sort of attention inside in our country. And the main problem I see with some of the provisions that are on the table is that
they are not limited in their use. Today, Senators and Congressmen may be standing up and saying that we need these tools to fight terrorism. We need these tools to stop terrorist attacks in America. A year, two years, three years from now, they could be used against me. I could be out on Fifth Avenue in a protest against the war, if there is a war, and those same tools could be used against me. And so I think that what we need to do is when we discuss these provisions, they need to be discussed openly and thoroughly so that the American people, as well as the individuals who are representing us in Washington, know exactly what they are signing on to. You don't believe that that's happening, you don't believe there's an open discussion going on now? I do not believe that it's as open as it should be. I commend Congress so far for putting on the break. But it's representative government. Our representatives are supposed to debate this. It's up to us as individuals to be informed. Jonathan said that.
He's struggling with trying to be more informed so he can talk to his young people about what they should be thinking and what they should be doing. The problem is, though, we are living right now in an environment where there's extreme pressure on individuals like ourselves, as well as elected officials, not to criticize the president, not to criticize the administration because there is a feeling that that will show weakness in America. What I'm saying is that before any of these provisions are passed, is we need to have critical, critical discussion about where they are going to lead us as a people in the future, before we should react and automatically take on things today without thinking of what they're going to mean in the future. And I want to bring the discussion down to another level. I don't know sufficiently about the government to say what our president and the rest should do. But I do know this. I know that I work at the University of Pittsburgh, say. And if we want to strengthen America, I know what we should be doing there. And rather than, I mean, yes, we will not tolerate any form profiling at the University of
Pittsburgh. But that is not enough. We want to strengthen America. Let us at the University of Pittsburgh have students from around the world. Let us have students who reflect the diversity of the population that we serve. If we want to strengthen America, let the faculty at the University reflect the diversity of this country. If we want to strengthen America, let the curriculum, let the administration. You see, there are a lot of things that we could do, even if we don't understand up at a much higher level what is going on. And I don't want, in a sense, a lot of flag waving at my level where I stand right now, as a number of people said, drop your buckets down right here where you are. And if we truly mean these things, after we finish the vigil, let's drop our buckets right here at the University of Pittsburgh, there's a lot we can do to strengthen America. And for me, that's the real test of whether we mean this.
Okay. Prove failing on the inside. Because that's where, basically, I think it starts from us not knowing each other as people. You know, I don't, like I was saying before, I usually don't talk to people, the Islamic group, or either white people, they usually don't talk to me unless it's at a work sense or anything. Maybe outside of that, getting to know each other, maybe that would, like, if there was a war, America could come together. But why? Well, John, you get to know somebody of another color, a race, or a religion, and a fox old, don't you? Absolutely. Of course, in personal. And count on that person. But there's a common interest is, there's this cause that we're both working toward. Africans here in America, we've yet to find a cause. We'll accept a cause of 9-1-1, but we'd be remiss if I'm reminded that the police officer in Cincinnati just got acquitted, you know, I'm reminded that James Burry was drug behind
a truck. I'm reminded of atrocities that happen to Africans here in America that we ho-home to wasn't that tragic. Did you hear what happened or so, but we don't take it on as a cause in terms of solidifying ourselves? If we're going to be Americans, we need to be viable, functional, productive Americans. All right, which brings us back to where Dr. Daniel started. That's what I'd like to do starting with you, Lisa. It's just go down the line and for all of you, we've got about four minutes left to give us your final thoughts on where we're going as a nation, and especially where people of color ought to be thinking about where we're going. Well, I think people of color got some very difficult times ahead. Because we feel outsiders in our own country, and now we're being asked to rally together with the rents of our countrymen, and we have a stake in this country. And we believe in the system here, and we believe that it'll work for us, and our time
has shown that we are willing to fight for it and work for freedom and liberty in this country. So we stand for the principles of America, and we have to find a way to show the rest of the nation that we are patriots at the same time as we're showing our dissent in our views. If you would go next, please. Sure. I don't think I'm not doubtful about my love for this country. I know there is a tough time for the people of color, including me. But I think we will overcome, as we say, and we'll overcome not just for us, but we'll inform everybody that there is only one humanity. We are all one in this. We are all one in this boat, and we'll do the best. All right, Jonathan. I think we need to start really educating our kids about politics, and what's really going on, and what's really happening, and we need to sit down, and just really basically know what's going on, and stop the profiling, and just, like he said, get as one as people. Brother, much of it.
I think that we suffer from the illusion of inclusion, and what I know is that our law can float in the river 10 years, and it'll never be a crocodile. Got to know what you're watching, I guess, all right, brother Rick? I think, basically, we just need to get with our kids, and things, and let them know that you need to look at what's going on right on the side of your door first, and know this how that's getting overlooked, you know, and I mean, that's the big picture to me, and I mean, that's the big picture what they need to be looking at, because that's what they will be facing for the rest of their lives. All right. That's it. Daniel? Well, what we've heard, I say go save the babies, save the babies, if another organization says leave no child behind, I think that particularly for African Americans, our family is in disarray, and where there's no strong family, similarly to where there's no vision, the people will perish, so we have to save our babies. I would just be remiss if I didn't offer my prayers to all of the families that were affected by this tragedy, that will continue to be affected, but my condolences to all
of those that were touched. I think we would all agree with those sentiments, right? Well, I want to thank you all for being here with us on this edition of Black Horizons. I hope for the viewers at home it's been very enlightening to see what people are color in this country are coming from. Dr. Daniel said that terrible duality we face, given what's happened to us in this country, and the fact that we want to remain as American citizens also. Thank you all for being here. I appreciate it. Thank you for having courage. We hope tonight's show gave you some different perspectives to consider. We thank you for joining us and hope you'll tune in again, and from all of us here at Black Horizons, have a good night. Set pieces donated by Macondo, South Craig Street, Oakland, and additional set pieces from the history store, Craig Street, and Forbes Avenue. I want to be a headlamp.
I want to be a headlamp. I want to be a headlamp. I want to be a headlamp.
Series
Black Horizons
Episode Number
3302
Episode
Aftermath
Producing Organization
WQED (Television station : Pittsburgh, Pa.)
Contributing Organization
WQED (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip-3b8f7996b35
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Description
Episode Description
In episode 3302 of Black Horizons host Chris Moore conducts a round-table talk with Lisa Freeland, Board Member, ACLU, with John McCoy, Vietnam Veteran, with Univ. of Pittsburgh Vice Provost Dr. Jack Daniel, with Director of the Islamic Center of Pittsburgh Farooq Hussaini, and with youth counselors Rick Butler and Jonathan Jones. The discussion focuses on the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.
Series Description
WQED’s Black Horizons was launched in 1968 and was designed to address the concerns of African American audiences. More than just a forum for the community, the series served as a training ground for Black talent in front of and behind the camera. Through the decades, the program featured various hosts and producers until Emmy winning journalist Chris Moore took over the program in the 1980s. He was later joined by Emmy winning producer Minette Seate before the program evolved into WQED’s Horizons in the 2000s.
Broadcast Date
2001-10-05
Asset type
Episode
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
00:57:33;14
Embed Code
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Credits
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Producing Organization: WQED (Television station : Pittsburgh, Pa.)
AAPB Contributor Holdings
WQED-TV
Identifier: cpb-aacip-b88a48e94ee (Filename)
Format: Betacam: SP
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Citations
Chicago: “Black Horizons; 3302; Aftermath,” 2001-10-05, WQED, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed February 27, 2025, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-3b8f7996b35.
MLA: “Black Horizons; 3302; Aftermath.” 2001-10-05. WQED, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. February 27, 2025. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-3b8f7996b35>.
APA: Black Horizons; 3302; Aftermath. Boston, MA: WQED, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-3b8f7996b35