On the Record; 624

The following is a sci fi TV original. In. The end. I'm Bob Douglas and welcome to On The Record Our guest this week our State Representative Michael Lawler is a Democrat of these Taban. He's serving in his third term in the General Assembly and he was targeted for defeat in a recent primary by an anti income tax group and a lawyer who voted for the tax won that primary. And we welcome Terri juror Tonya. She was an upset winner over a three term incumbent Democrat Joseph Gray of New Britain. She favors the income tax and her defeated opponent was running against it. Joining us again is Greg lackey of the New Haven Register. To both of you thank you very much for joining us Representative Lawlor. You were targeted by Tom Scott's group.

He has led the anti income tax code anti income tax because in the state in terms of your primary how much of an issue was the income tax. Analyze your own victory. Well I mean I think the people running against me tried to make it the main issue there's no question about that and only now are we beginning to understand the dimensions of the involvement of Tom Scott. He had actually gone door to door in most of my district to Democratic households encouraging people to vote against me telling them I was the key vote against the income tax etc. and as far as I know that's the only issue he emphasized there were some side issues you know the traditional Republican stuff about the death penalty or gay rights or abortion that kind of stuff was were side issues. I assume more motivated by the time Scott for Congress campaign. But that was what they attempted to make the key issue. And I was outspent almost 5 to 1 we don't know for sure yet but clearly a lot of money was put into the other side and there was a very intensive effort to do a door to door campaign with other people they

did mailing phone banking and and essentially as you know we only had a week and have to campaign those of us who were in the legislature so I think on the whole That was their time to make it an issue. But as far as I was concerned I think people many people voted for me disagreed with my vote on the income tax. And I think in the end and I'm sure we'll talk about it during this program. People are looking for real answers they weren't going to be satisfied by the slogans. Well quite a few people did turn out for your opponent. He was an outsider in terms of democratic politics in East Haven. He was also Ken Barber was. Also a had had some questions about his campaign and his ethics or his staff's ethics. He was a pretty good candidate and a pretty good opponent for you in terms it wasn't in terms of if they had put up a stronger candidate against you wouldn't you have been in more trouble.

Well yeah I think but I think people are looking for stronger candidates but the issue is you know if you're going to have this message about just vote for me I'll get rid of the income tax. You're kind of stuck with that because once people say what's your alternative What are you actually going to do that's where they were into trouble I mean that's the hallmark of Tom Scott. You know all the criticism in the world but no answers and that clearly was what my opponent was doing. So I don't know if they had a more credible candidate we would have a much more interesting discussion. I'm looking forward to that in the November elections but you know it's clearly their strategy was different was not to raise issues not to put up candidates who have their own ideas just to say look I'm against the income tax. Vote for me. The other one other point about that election or the delegate primary was that it's a very much of an insider game. Republicans and independents voters are not allowed to take part in these primaries. Do you think that you're going to have a more difficult time in the general election given the fact that close to 800. Party Democrats voted against you and there may be a

large number of Republicans in your district and independents who also don't like the income tax you're going to have a tough time in November. Well if you mean by difficulty you're going to have to answer an awful lot more questions and usually have to answer yes I think that's going to happen for incumbents and for challengers I think we're going to be pinned down much more than has been the case in the past because people really dug beneath our sort of pat answers to questions you know what are you for what are you against They really got into the second lot of questions about well how are you actually going to do this so if you're for cutting spending or cutting welfare does that mean you can take away from nursing homes or from schools. And I sense people are asking that question a lot more actively and I'm sure that was your experience to inadvertently carried your account of whether you know it or not you've already reached a certain level of notoriety at the state capitol any time and I'm not aware that any time a challenger takes on an incumbent Democrat or Republican seats in a primary that makes news. And why is your own challenge to an incumbent in New Britain he was a three

term incumbent. Why did you run and assess the income tax as an issue at least in your race. Well I thought the timing was very right. I felt that my campaign slogan was you're going to like the change. I thought I was a definite contrast to Mr.. In that I had have. For the last at least 10 years closely watched the new Britain's delegation. Voting record in the house in the Senate and have been very aware of the issues and the bills that they've been voting on. And as I looked at Mr Ray as I disagreed with how he voted on many of the issues I felt that his focus was narrow in that he came from a criminal justice background which is fine but I felt too looking to long range in the future that we need people who are going to initiate some solutions and be aware of all the issues I'm going to push for some of these solutions. And I thought I was the person to do that.

Mr Raya framed his campaign towards the end around the income tax I did not. I was my campaign was a grassroots effort. I had mainly people working on my campaign that had been in the political process before but believed in me either through my leadership in the community or past experience working with different groups of people who might bring people to consensus rather than. You know railing around one issue and so forth and I just felt with their help and certainly I had many volunteers about 80 volunteers with no political experience or speak that I was able to overcome. I also feel he ran a more traditional campaign. I think he felt that as an incumbent he was entrenched that he had the support of course of the Democratic Party he was endorsed by the Democratic Party in New Britain and therefore he felt a little confident I think too. And I just you know he's kind of the tortoise and the hare sort of raised and I felt

going along that I would just plug along and do what I felt was good. The door to door the knocking the grassroots effort talk with the different people in the district in different communities it's certainly a very diverse community socioeconomically So that's there's been a lot of talk about the rage among the general public not necessarily. Focused on the income tax issue as much as it is incumbent politicians political parties the government in general that they feel alienated and the government isn't working for them. When did that anti-incumbent feeling surface in your campaign did that was it a help for you as a challenger. Yes I can't deny that there certainly is an anti-incumbent feeling certainly nationally. Absolutely. Who else but a woman is the ultimate outsider. I mean if you look at I mean that was

obviously an advantage. I know Mr. Ray has alluded to the fact that women you know beat him that sort of thing and in a sense you know if you want to extract from that that's sort of correct. There are in the whole process that I know of in the Congress there are 30 women you know in the federal level and nationally and certainly I think that was an advantage my going door to door as a woman and talking and focusing on some of the issues that are really of concern among the constituents in that district. And it isn't so my Everyone knows of this. Income tax is a very. Bitter pill to swallow we all suffer from it sort of speak. But they're concerned about getting their money's worth about spending our money wisely. We talked a lot about that but they're also concerned. These are you know kitchen issues and I'm very familiar with that. These are issues that women can really get into the social issues my background is in social sciences my educational background and

social science. And I feel quick to deal with some of these and address health issues of welfare reform and education these are issues I've always been familiar with and the people in that district are concerned about old or young. They want their grandchildren their rich or their children to get good quality education. They're concerned about welfare reform I think this is a you know big issue that's being addressed now and probably will in the future and health care. We all look down the road I've always as you know as a woman as a mother we look down the road at how are we going to provide for our children's future for my future. These are these are concerns what I heard when I went door I didn't hear I hate the income tax I want to repeal it. I heard how are we going to be fiscally responsible and how we're going to deal with these issues. Is it going to change in your district in your district in the general election. The media has made a lot of the income tax issue. The challenge from Tom Scott and other people have made a great deal about the income tax issue. Have we maybe

overblown the income tax as a very important issue as you head toward November. Well I don't think it's a defining issue I think the income tax debate from last year was the catalyst to what we're seeing here in Connecticut and really it's just a more intense version of what we're seeing nationwide in this whole Perot thing. People are just sort of reaching out for something new and and you know one thing I've learned the last year there's a lot more people who know what state representatives are and know who their state representative is and they're much more likely to call you up or confront you in a store or ask you a lot of questions. And I think the challenge for all of us as you know people running for office for the first time are incumbents is just to try to spend a lot of time meeting with people face to face trying to explain our positions. And my sense is that if people feel and intuitively that you have sort of a plan for the future you have an idea that they're going to even if they don't agree with everything you say they're going to support you particularly if your opponent is just a naysayer and. But you know obviously I

think those people who are challenging the Republicans trying to take over the majority in the House and Senate are going to focus on the income tax because they feel that's their meal ticket. But so that the burden is on us really to do a lot of as Ricky Ricardo would say a lot of splaying and for the next six months represent Lawlor you're sort of on the other side of this anti-incumbent feeling. Did you did you sense a lot of that that it wasn't necessarily income tax but you had to defend yourself as an incumbent. Absolutely because you know people once they got beyond the income tax would say well you know if we're for all those tax and spend policies in the last few years you know we would even have gotten to that debate you had to go back and explain things from from square one and you know I keep coming back to this issue of people are pinning down politicians more precisely these days and I think. Hopefully we'll get away from this politics of identifying the lowest common denominator in terms of issues to see where you can play to and

people give us a little bit more slack to think of more creative solutions which may require a little pain now but have some sort of dividend in the future and if if you can convince people that that is your plan that's the direction you're heading and I think people are willing to buy into it and we see that with the economic development initiatives we've done this year. And even you know beneath the surface in the income tax people understand even they don't like an income tax. They understand that the plan is to use this to stabilize our revenue base so we can get on to do stuff we all agree we need to do in the future. You were you both been involved in these delegate primaries and you've been an observer an activist on a peripheral I guess of the system. Is there a better way to engage in a primary and get out of the delegate system which is kind of an inside the ballpark kind of way. Oh absolutely. We should have direct primary here in the state of Connecticut direct primary system. That's kind of self-serving for me to say that

but I strongly believe that we should be doing the way I feel we should be doing away with the caucuses and the conventions and selection of delegates I think it's costly it's a burden to not only the candidate but to the electorate to the people in the state. I don't see why we just can't petition and get on the ballot and people vote no. Of Ember And the winner come out in September rather than win or come out and be voted on in November. I strongly believe that that's the way to go and we need it now more than ever after being through the process. The governor Weicker who was one of the main reasons the income tax got through has offered to campaign for any legislative candidates who want him to or in favor of the income tax and who want him to campaign. Can I ask you both. Would that be. Would you like him to campaign for you this this summer and fall. And if not why not. Well if you mean that I'm going to go door to door.

I would expect him to do that and I don't think it's useful. You know Tip O'Neill said all politics are local and as you know Greg you cover where your paper covers East Haven. You know a lot of the issues in our primary had nothing to do with the state capital or or the income tax or anything else so you know I'll deal with my race in East Haven on my own and you know Governor Weicker can come down from time to time and explain what his plan for the future is. Because I've certainly had other people come in and help me out Rosa DeLauro for example was very helpful in my election. Endorsements and assistance from other politicians has a role but I think if anyone expects that the support of the governor is going to be the key to getting them elected I think they're wrong. We got to the governors because I mean you will ask him to come down or you want to ask him to come down I want to ask him to come down if he wants to come down and talk about stuff that that's fine. And there's another issue this year too and that is endorsements from the Connecticut Party and you know in East Haven. We have a delegate going to a convention I assume will probably also be on the Connecticut

party line so I don't know how that's going to work out. But you know I think voters you know know all these gimmicks and games and stuff so to assume that it's helpful to have someone like that come down. I think we're beyond that point. They're really focusing much more than they have been in the past going to answer your colleague from New Britain or would be colleagues from New Britain saying I hadn't thought of the governor campaigning on my behalf and I don't intend to ask them to do so. I hadn't really looked at that as an option or I feel. While I I could always use that all the help I can get but I also feel feel that I have an allegiance to the Democratic Party and I think that at this point I think that's a wise course for me to take and stick with that. What kind of shape your Democratic Party as it heads toward November the income tax and other issues split the party particularly last year as you head toward November as a party and who is the major spokes person if you will for the party come November

or do you feel that you're pretty much on your own for better or for worse. I feel that I think I have support within my I know in my New Britain delegation so I'm looking to them. I'm I'm again more local and you know dealing with it. Some of the legislators there that now were all Democrats were going to pull together that sort of thing and and I certainly anticipate working with you know people on the New Britain delegation the mayor of New Britain has said that he would help me in my campaign and so forth. And as far as at the Capitol I have been contacted by leadership in the AAP and they said we will assist you in any way that we can. So I have been recognized sort of speak. And that's very nice very comforting. I mean it's an interesting question and those people have been observing the legislature for the past four years know that there's been a very stark division in the Democratic Party especially at the capital

and I think all of that has been predicated on sort of this sort of liberal versus moderate battle and that's how it's framed in the Capitol and I think that this will be put to rest after the results of the November election I think there are there are competing agendas to be sure. And there is going to be no single spokesman for the party this year. To be sure I think a lot of people are going to test out the theories that these two caucuses have been. Sort of touting for four years in this election cycle and I think the results will be very interesting and that's why I think the results from last week were extremely interesting because it went way beyond the issues people thought the votes would be motivated by and it got into much more substantive issues I'm hoping the Democratic party will coalesce. Next year I'm hoping we'll be in the majority for sure. And I think you'll see a whole new generation of leaders emerge. And if your question is where the statewide leaders and we have fortunate we have three very highly highly qualified statewide elected officials you know Dick Blumenthal and Bill Curry and Frank gorgeous are very well respected.

And we'll see how things shape up next year and that and of course the right after the November election the battle for governor will begin and I think you'll see a lot of coalescing at that point but right now everybody is on their own and we'll put all our theories to the test and see what happens in November. You know less than 10 minutes from the representative Lawlor let me ask you this question. Speaking of the Democratic leadership how do you feel about the very national politicians or at least congressional politicians like Joe Lieberman who once supported the income tax coming out. In opposition to the income tax during the middle of this whole debate also Rosell of the war Oh who is a perceived at least as a traditional liberal urban oriented politician also came out in opposition to the income tax so that I know that some some of your colleagues in the New Haven region were somewhat upset by that. Did you buy the those

comments. I think everyone's always a little bit resentful when someone who's really not in the in in in the battle takes a position but then again all of us had an opinion in the state legislature about the Gulf War or whatever and I guess the question is how do you actually sort of make it clear what your position is if you're not in the fight directly. But I think if I had to speculate what motivated Senator Lieberman in Congress from the Laurel's point of view on this there's two issues one is a theoretical question of what's the best tax system and the other is a more practical question about under the current circumstances are you know is this specific bill that's being debated the best idea. And as you know I voted to repeal it I want to kasian in December and it wasn't based on the theoretical. Opinion on an income tax versus a sales tax based system. The question is practical politics and you know Bruce Marson kind of set the stage for this in the gubernatorial campaign he said an income tax may very well be the fairest way to raise money in Connecticut but it's clear there's no issue that's more divisive than this one.

Therefore it would be crazy for any governor to try and thrust this on the voters of Connecticut and expect people just to sort of debate it in the ordinary course and take a vote and sure enough that's what happened and we had nine months of complete political disaffection last year I mean at the risk almost of starting a sort of a rebellion in Connecticut and so the issue is if we're going to do it what's the best process. And I think for those reasons Morrison talked about a referendum etc. I mean the question is how do we politically get from here to there and I think. It was a very risky course chosen by the governor. I think now it's it's becoming clear that maybe he was right in the political strategy had Forget about theory behind the income tax. And I think Woodville are only men were saying is under the circumstances we don't think it's right to try and thrust this on the people of Connecticut at a time when it's pretty clear especially in my district that 80 90 percent of people thought this was wrong and let me just say one more thing. People called me up last year complaining about the tax said they all had three consistent complaints number one we felt misled by Governor Weicker in the election. Number two

we were very unimpressed with the way the legislature went about the process behind closed doors in a vote in the morning changes overnight people go home all that stuff. And number three you told us it would be fair to the middle income people at the 40 $50000 couples and we got our first checks with the withholdings it was much higher than it was supposed to be. And those three factors taken together cause people to be outraged about incumbents in politics and I think that was the reaction. And now we're trying to respond to that through repair etc. but I think it wasn't so much about the income tax as we're seeing in these elections it was the process and what people said mechanism the process that happened last year raises a question about what you both feel the responsibility of a legislator is. You know you Mike. Been supportive of an income tax for a long time. You eventually voted for repeal after

as a result of the pressure from your constituents. What do both of you think your responsibility is. Are you there to represent the views of your constituents or are you there to do what you think is best. Sometimes those things don't always agree. I strongly support representative democracy and it's where a country was founded and I think that voters have got to have faith in a person in a candidate and in their legislator in their law made policy maker whatever that they have weighed in within the basic philosophy the tools to find some of these solutions as I talked about before. I feel that. There's no way I'm going to be able to be in accordance with everyone in the district. There are going to be people mad at me at some point in time people there are going to be happy with me. I think that goes with the job. Certainly I feel it's my duty to let them know communicate well with them let them know what's going on why I

voted on issues this way. It's all fantasy land down the road but still I feel that this is this is part of me that I will communicate with my district with my constituents with all of them and let them know what's going on and I firmly believe that this is something that can help assuage anti-incumbent feelings and a lot of the discontent that is going on in the state. Just talk to me. People want to be talked to and as. Represent a wall we said they want to be included. They want to know what's going on they want more than just I'm for or against this and I strongly feel that that's what people want from them from a candidate from a legislator. You mentioned earlier that most people now know who their state representative and or state senator is. And a lot of that had to do about the major debate at the state legislature last year. Do you think the presidential race the race that U.S. Senator Christopher

Dodd is involved in is going to have any effect on whether you win or lose or whether you win or lose. Or do you feel that your races are going to pretty much depend on the kind of race that you run and the kind of race that you run in November. It's not a coat tails with no coat. No that's for sure. I think it's definitely how I run my campaign how I you know I talk to the people as I go door to door. Now more than ever it's grassroots. Absolutely I don't feel that I'm going to be you know voted in with Bill Clinton or anyone else for that matter. I definitely feel that my campaign is very critical at this point how I love my campaign and how I talk with people in a lot of. I agree I think that it's going to have a marginal effect at best and the outcome I think you'll see a lot more people voting down the other end of the ticket though this year you know in the past you see a big tremendous drop off after whatever happens we go in our president and you know we're

like fifth or sixth down the row in the general election and I think you'll see a lot of voting always down the line we've got a couple of minutes left we've been asking a lot of legislators the same question in recent in recent weeks we've gone through a full term with an independent governor a governor from not a Republican or a Democratic Party. How well has it worked Representative Slaughter. Does it work with an independent governor in the administration. You know I think the jury's still out. To a large extent I believe them we've designed a government for a two party system in this country. And. I think in general it would be better to have an affiliated with one of the two parties. I mean if we want to go to this multi-party system then we really should redesign the legislative branch to respond to that you know more in the European system where you know represented to us I was talked about this a little bit I mean if we're going to have three or more parties and you've got to figure out a way how you can come up with a majority. And because it's easy to to walk away from a decision unless you have this sort of structural pressure to kind of reach consensus and you only get that if there's two

parties. And. We've got about a half a minute go ahead. Well what grades do you give the governor if you look at it. Well I think I think for it gosh it's I think he's done the right thing maybe for all the walk where he says I don't know. It's a lot of people say they don't they distrust him. I think he has moral integrity I think he really did what he felt had to be done. I think he has good people surrounding him. He's not you know a popular person obviously. For many different reasons but I still feel that he has stayed his course and I think that when he said he's nobody's in him that is helpful. I think that has held true in people when they voted for him had to know that's what they were getting. And I think that's what they got. Well we thank you both so time's up thank you very much for joining us. Our guests today State Representative Michael Lawler of used haven and the Democratic candidate for state representative.

Terry your tonneau from New Britain slash Berlin. Our thanks to Greg Lafferty of the New Haven Register. And I'm Bob Douglas. Please join us next time for another interview on the right.