Fairfield County Business Report; 506; Garbage to Energy

Garbage garbage everywhere and what are we going to do with all that next on the Fairfield County Business Report. Good evening everyone and welcome to the Fairfield County business for port they say in life there are only two things which are certain death and taxes well maybe we should amend that to say death and taxes and the garbage and that's what we'll be talking about tonight. Trash What should we do with all of it. And the incredible opportunity for some people to make money out of it and we will get to our panel discussion in just a moment from now. But first in the news it was an incredible week on Wall Street and in other places the past few days. The stock market was like a roller coaster up and down and up and down again this past Thursday at

Fairfield University. Kodak the committee on developing American capitalism held on the U.S. economy and its international dilemma. One of the speakers was ambassador the consul general of Japan in New York who discussed whether the trade imbalance was partially responsible for the wild fluctuations. US exports have been consistently falling and that is a sign of. I hope it will be corrected. By a great amount of exports from the US to the Japanese scene. To the general scene I'm sure was not. But this itself had that much of an impact on the recent market there and we'll have a full report on the symposium on the next Fairfield County Business Report. It was this past April 23rd that Bridgeport was the focus of news stories around the

world. The collapse of the plaza killed 28 workers and held the attention of the country as a desperate search for survivors lasted for days. No one was pulled out of the rubble alive. Nearly six months later federal investigators are out with their report as to what caused the tragedy. They are accusing contractors of a pattern of sloppy construction practices and of recklessly disregarding at least two earlier minor accidents that warned of shortcomings in the design. The government is proposing a record five point eleven million dollars in fines against five of the companies involved and angry mayor Tom UC tells us that criminal investigations must be conducted because it appears to him that some people. Should go to jail. If you've ever driven down the post road in Norwalk you may have wondered where that great aroma of fresh bread is coming from Well wonder no more. Sean Shea reports that Pepperidge Farm has been baking all that dough and wheat and everything else for a half century now and for half a century has been making a lot of dough. Your family spent the day remembering and celebrating its 50th anniversary and even the

local politicians came to join in on the festivities. You know it's just great to to be able to celebrate I sometimes have the responsibility of going to companies as they close down and talking to the workers to see how we can how bout this company is in closing it's going forward and it's terrific 50 wonderful years. It's been 50 years since Margaret Rudd can baked and sold her first loaf of bread. And though she is no longer living Pepperidge Farm remembers the dedication that Margaret Rudd can need it into the company 50 years ago. I believe we've been very loyal to our business. Principles will poison the business. Tremendous emphasis on quality. The concern we have for the community. With a million dollars in sales and while the company always knew expected that this would

occur and just be concerned the next year the next year to see how much better we could make it. Our business is very healthy and it's been very good to us and we have a lot of boys now are here for another 50 to 100 years at least. Sean Schaefer the Fairfield County Business Report Pepperidge Farm remembers Thank you Sean and now it's time to move on to this week's program about waste and what to do with it. There are three guests joining me in the studio and they are John Cunningham. John is the executive vice president of combustion engineering. General manager also of the resource recovery systems part of combustion engineering. Marion short the president of CRH Connecticut resources Recovery Authority and Alex plant manager at Bridgeport Resko part of the will of greater environmental systems group. Thank you all for being here. Marian I'd like to start with you what is C R A what does it stand for is it a state agency is it a private agency How does it work.

Well the C.R. raise the Connecticut resources Recovery Authority. And we are a quasi state authority. We exist because the state created us in 1973. And we have more or less a single purpose and that's garbage disposal. Our mission really. Allows us to. Built in finance. Plants to convert garbage into energy. It also requests that we assist in efforts toward recycling and toward bringing business to Connecticut that is involved in recycling industries. John tell us a little bit if you can about combustion engineering What is it. Where is it based What is it do how combustion engineering is Fairfield County is its home base where our corporate headquarters are in Stanford. There's a large complex that I work out of out of Windsor Connecticut. One of our primary businesses has been and steam generators that have been sold all over the world. And that we use in our resource recovery facilities our resource recovery division

is now working on the MID Connecticut project under the C.R. We have several other projects in Honolulu in Detroit and that are in the construction and several more that will be shortly. So we are in the resource recovery business and many other businesses but the one that relates to see I see are a principally is our steam generator business. And when we say resource recovery we're basically talking about taking trash and burning it and converting it to energy. Yes primarily but also where we can and where there are markets will remove material first that we can market and for which we're better off not putting through the combustion process such as what material source materials as an example. And I think while we're not currently. Planning or committed to recovering aluminum material say in the Conn. My own feeling is that once we start in commercial operation we'll start looking into that. I suspect it will be done. Alex thank you for being here and now you're constructing a plan which is actually not too far from my house up in Bridgeport. Tell us a little bit about it.

Well the plant that being built in Bridgeport is will be when it goes on a line and approximately February of 88 will be the eighth plant that will have been. Constructed and operated by what is now known as will a broader Environmental Systems Incorporated. The other plants are variously in Massachusetts Florida and New York and New Hampshire. This particular plant will process 20 250 tons a day of refuse using the what's called the mass burn technology. And we will generate approximately 65 megawatts of electricity with the plant at full capacity and we're serving approximately 14 communities. Most of which are in the Fairfield County area. So everybody from around the Bridgeport area will simply be taking their refuse or trash whatever you would like to call it and bring it over to your plant. Well they'll be a system of haulers. We also are going to be operating a transfer stations that are presently being operated by the C R A

and. The local haulers for each community will be bringing their materials to the the transfer stations will be placed in a larger trucks to the transfer trailers being about 20 ton for Pasadena. The smaller trucks are usually two to three ton Packers or roll offs as we call them bring their material there it's just basically a methodology to reduce transportation cost and this is the plant that is that's expected to be collated and completed sometime early next year. Yes and around February about mid-February we we have to go through certain startup procedures chemical cleaning of the boilers basically checking out basic systems within the plant so that we'll be ready to receive trash or about the middle of February I'm saying right now. Marion how bad of a problem is the garbage situation in Fairfield County and in the state of Connecticut from what I hear it's a tremendous problem right now we're simply running out of a landfill space so we really are just about to the point where landfill space is just gone.

You know so the garbage problem has been called the crisis and I think it's surely a crisis. If we were only to rely on landfills in the state of Connecticut and now I'm quoting figures from the Department of Environmental Protection who whose responsibility is this sort of thing. We would run out of landfill space in 1989 and that's just two years away. Fortunately we're building the plants and so that we can divert a lot of the trash from the landfills to the plants and preserve that very precious landfill capacity. Because Connecticut has a high water table and because a lot of our drinking water comes from groundwater. It's a very tough problem to site a landfill safely. And water contamination is a terrible terrible long term problem. So as much as we can the policy for Connecticut has been to move away from dependence on landfills and to move into these alternative technologies. I want to plants are being constructed around the state.

Well we have numerous plants in various stages. There are four plants currently under construction in the state right now. Two of them have entered their startup periods and two of them were are expected to enter their startup periods within the next year. And we've got at least three more on the books that are in planning stages and we'll be issuing bonds for in the next year or two. So there is a big effort to divert the trash from the landfills and to get into a more modern and up to date alternative. As you can see by burning the trash and turning it into electricity you're doing something positive with it and that's certainly got a lot more going for it than land pollution which more or less is what these landfills are. John you and I were talking before we went on the air about the fact that when it comes to garbage all people want to know about is the fact that they put it down on on Wednesday night or Thursday night. The man comes around in the morning he takes it all in. That's all they want to know about. And then when somebody says we'll build one of these

plants in my city they said not in my backyard you know is that one of the major problems you run into. It is and it's it's been a major problem in Connecticut that if Connecticut is not unique. These plants properly run can be good neighbors and they I'm confident will be run properly they have a lot of reasons and motivations to see that they are both on the part of the people that are building them and running them. But also the fact that they have will be very well monitored by the appropriate state officials. But we need to do a better job as an industry in communicating what these plants are all about and how they run and exactly what goes on in them and to try to diffuse and through education. Those concerns are once again another problem is especially in Fairfield County where municipalities don't really deal with their neighbors all that well. Greenwich may not really care too much about Westport Westport may not care about Bridgeport but still it's a regional problem it's a trash problem. Are all these municipalities thinking

about constructing their own little plants in their own communities. Well fortunately no and I would credit the C R E for being the primary reason for for that. Connecticut was the first state to provide a vehicle that helped bring these communities together and to have some motivation for them to think together and look to a more common solution then each town finding its own. So that's been a critical point here in Connecticut. Mary is this just a problem here in Connecticut or is this a problem that affects the northeast of the country as a whole. You know that question reminds me of a new acronym that I heard last week. I serve on the board of the National Resource Recovery Association which is part of the U.S. Conference of Mayors and we had a meeting last week in St. Louis the night that the Cardinals won the Senate. And my colleague from Los Angeles we have members of the board from city Chicago New York Los Angeles Washington state all over the country and

we get together and compare notes and try to set some policies and the new acronym out of Southern California is a make it go away. So it's not unique at all. We found out how terrible the landfills are it's not just Connecticut that's been closing landfills but in the England it's just amazing New Jersey had hundreds there down to just a handful landfills left. And I would say that we have common problems and we're really looking for common solutions. It would seem to me to be a perfect opportunity for some slick entrepreneur to come along and say this is going to be a problem for many years to come I can make a bundle doing this. Define more businesses starting up with the express purpose of saying we're going to take this garbage We're going to remove it from your community and we're going to do something with this. Very frankly Ron the slick entrepreneur phase I hope is over. We met a lot of those folks in the 70s and in many cases were or were sold a

bill of goods. And I think now we've all put our heads together and said let's get some very serious solutions to a very serious problem and I think we have strong companies involved now. My part of my role is to make sure they don't make too much of a buck at the expense of the taxpayer. But to see that the plants are well run by good companies they're in this business for the long term so that our citizens can have long term solutions. And Alex did you run into a lot of opposition in the Bridgeport area in constructing your plan. Did the bureaucrats of the people say OK. Put it someplace but don't put it here we don't want you around. I think there's that element there but frankly we haven't had a whole lot of opposition in this particular area and I know it may be through the fact there was a prior attempt made in the Bridgeport area sighting and been permitted for for the kind of activity we're doing in general. But I you know like John said and then and Marion alluding to

there is a mentality there that people don't want the plants in their backyard. But I think everyone acknowledges that has something has to be done about it and it's going to take some courage on the part of the people I'm I'm saying politically probably to to recognize that these problems need to be addressed the problem of refugees needs to be solved. And we feel like in our company that we are a significant part of that solution. How did you get around it did you decide to put the plant in an area where there are not too many homes where people really don't hang around all that much. Well the siting of our facility was it was a mutually agreed upon. Situation really the CIA right took the lead in that I think and again I think was a lot because that site was there and it had been used for similar activity before. Within our company we have had some experience in setting plants and really

contracting for a plant on our own without the involvement of pellets without a guarantee of an inflow of refugees. In those situations. Citing as you know can be a problem that's and has people recognize. That this is more of a solution to the problem that refuse to energy plant. It becomes more activity and that becomes more awareness on the part of the community and more involvement and sometimes opposition sometimes in support of the of the project. You know just there is from from place to place. I'd like to add in that citing these plants and we've been surprisingly lucky I think in particular in the case of Hartford and Bridgeport. I don't think there's been much opposition although as time goes on we've been into it these plants were cited several years ago but I think it's important to note that the sighting goes before numerous boards and bodies that

examine every possible environmental or economic hazard that could arise. We have a special group in Connecticut called the siting Council whose job is to review the sites of power plants and these are considered power plants under the law. And either awfully extensive hearings. Then we have very extensive hearings before the Department of Environmental Protection. In which time citizens are always invited to learn about the technologies. And I think the process is Cicero that by the end of it someone with a technical bent or citizen that was interested in learning about it would find out that the hazards while the plants aren't perfect. It's like having any industrial plant nearby. And I think that there are pluses and minuses it's a plus for the cities because they don't have to go very far with their garbage. It's right in their community and they don't have to pay any extra transportation costs which are very expensive.

Fairfield County is a little bit unique because land is so expensive that almost more than community concerns are economic concerns when you get involved in siting decisions. And we're fortunate that Bridgeport has a need and we were able to deal I think effectively with the city administration in weighing the pluses and minuses helping out where we could to assure that things would continue to flow smoothly and that they would get the benefit of having the plant located in Bridgeport. In terms of economic savings who gets the energy to decide that the the small local utilities may end up getting it. Will United illuminating get it Northeast Utilities. Who decides who gets the power. All our contracts are with major utilities either united illuminating or Northeast Utilities in other parts of the state. So that's that's a that's a done deal and in each case we have a 20 year contract with the utilities. And when we look at the future. Of trash to energy plants What do you

say is it going to be more plants around the United States. I had heard someone tell me this the other day and they said it was a bonafide thought that some people wanted to take the garbage situation was getting so bad they wanted to take the trash put it on rockets once space travel becomes cheaper and put it up into space. Not just the radioactive waste but they just want to send that trash out to Mars or whatever. How do you see the future. I don't see that. I think that. That's a little bit what Marian was alluding to I think I think there are some people that would like to think that type of solution and a little bit like I put it on my curb and it's gone and I don't worry about it. I see the two technologies that are used today both mass burning and prepared fuel. And we offer both. We think that there's a place for both in in the different applications throughout the country throughout the world for that matter as being the prime technologies used for the next 5 to 10 years there are some new ones coming in fluid I's bet is being looked at as a combustion technique. But I

really see the what I think is going to have the greatest impact in the next. Five years will be a growing effort that is being mandated legislatively in a number of states and has been connected Conn. to recycle to take out from the mainstream away supply that which can be placed back used as raw material or in place of raw material. And so developing techniques to do that more efficiently. To come back with a product that that has a better market appeal would be a glass that's cleaner on metal that's cleaner that type of thing I think technology will grow in that area. I believe that's supposed to go into effect sometime around 1990 one thousand ninety one where you don't have to separate your garbage before you put it out. Is that right Mary target deadline is January 1st 1991. And the goal is 25 percent of the waste stream to be recycled. Prior to reaching a waste energy facility or a landfill.

Do you think people do it. Or are Americans just too lazy to do something like that in European countries they a number of them do it and they're quite successful as they are at it. But will Americans do it. I think they will. I think in Connecticut we've got a leg up we've got an educated and informed citizenry that realizes that at some point you can't just make it go away but everybody has to pitch in. And we see daily greater sensitivity to that. You see McDonald's altering their packaging all around us. Is this this increased awareness. So I'm very optimistic. I serve on the statewide recycling taskforce. I know a lot about the business side of recycling. And as I look at it I think the two go hand in hand so well recycling. In other words pulling out what can be re-used and then entering a waste energy facility for the other material and I really I'm very excited about the what we call an integrated solid waste management program. And now is to advocate something such as that making sure that people recycle as well as the others

which can then go into a plant such as yours. Yeah. Our company is a proponent of source separation so-called where the materials are divided into different streams at the source where they're generated and we are involved with getting involved on recycling making recycling proposals for the establishment of what is called intermediate processing centers for the for the separation of cans bottles current dated another paper products. I believe long term. That more more needs to be done in the regulating packaging to the point where the means are set in motion for the ultimate disposal of the material. The thought is in mind about the ultimate disposal of that material one when the product is put on the shelf a lot of products are packaged to appeal to the eye as a marketing methodology but

those packages are very variable in a lot of them are not recyclable and in the present situation you know. So that's what I see I see. That's that's going to be a long term development I think. It sounds from what the three of you are saying is that Americans are going to have to learn how to change their lifestyle the companies will have to do things completely different in the future to get to deal with this problem. You know you ask what's the future. And as you know in the business world we often the good to pay and to know what's in the future in this case we also have to in the waste industry in my readings about Japan indicate that they do seven separations before they burn their waste and they burn almost all their all the remaining waste. And they still burn an awful lot. So we need to do the separations and we also need the resource recovery plants. And our business is doing enough right now in terms of changing how they packaged goods and so on to accommodate what will have to be doing in the future are they thinking of the future. John do you see that.

I think more of them are. I think that in the end it all it almost goes back to just take the question of the controls that have been put on by the Clean Air Act. We have seen processes change the actual process by which products are made have been chipped or changed simply because the facts of life are that no one is going to admit air stream gas streams with contaminants above a certain state and federal agreed upon level. And that's caused people to look back at the fundamental design of that process because the economics are different now. We have to deal with the waste streams differently. Same thing is happening in the product packaging industry. And I think Donald's made a big step in saying that they were going to change the type of packaging they were using to alleviate the problem they don't end it but they don't moderate it. I'm sorry. I think you should know that the implications are enormous. For example we have a terrible problem disposing of what we call bulky waste demolition materials land clearing debris. These go in different sorts of

landfills than the the the well known town dump. And. I've talked with people in the industry in the demolition industry and they said it the difficulty of disposing of these materials may change the whole way that buildings are demolished which will greatly increase costs for the Stanfords and the bridge ports that are booming in terms of development. If these construction costs go up a lot more. The way this would affect things Ron is I heard of a demolition contractor say this about a week ago to a state legislative task force that you may have to start taking the buildings down piece by piece instead of all at once the way we do now. And we have to hold that thought there. Maybe we could pick it up again in the future we've run out of time but we come back again because I have a feeling it's a story that won't go away. Glad to thank you. And that'll do it for this week's program once again my thanks to John Cunningham Marion church and Alex Caldwell.

I'm Ron ropey I can't thank you for watching. Have a good night.