On the Record; 704

They'll fall away. Is this Sci-Fi TV original. I'm Bob Douglas and welcome to On the record on this week's program we're going to take a look at Age Ross Perot's decision to get back in the presidential race and its potential impact on elections right here in Connecticut. We welcome to our program. James Boutelle is the executive director of the state Parow petitioning Committee. And we welcome back to our program Richard Foley. He is the Republican state chairman. And we welcome back state senator John Larson Democrat president pro tem of the Connecticut Senate. Joining us is Christopher Blake of the Connecticut Post. To all of you welcome to our program. Thanks for joining us. Mr. Boutelle Well let's begin with you first.

You were in Dallas earlier this week for the big I guess expected announcement. How seriously should Connecticut voters take the H Ross Perot presidential bid and what kind of an effort are we going to see here in Connecticut. Well I think that the voters here in Connecticut should take it very seriously. I think what I had the opportunity to do in Dallas is listen for two hours to both the Republicans the Democrats and Ross Perot. And we've looked through all three plans. The Clinton plan the Bush plan and the Perot plan and the Perot plan represents the most dramatic change. And I just hope the voters out there will look at the Perot message. Dick valy what impact if any in these last five weeks here in Connecticut. Well my guess is that it probably hurts Clinton a bit more than it hurts Bush. Clearly. PEROT I think takes fairness takes away votes from both. I would point out Democrats and the poll indicates that about 70 percent of pro-people had

had gone to Clinton. I think that hurts hurts Bush a little bit. It hurts hurts Clinton though but more does this can confuse the electorate any more than they may be confused about what's going on. Their share of the fact that now we have three. Certainly it's really confusing. But you know we we can talk about plans that the candidates all have and that's nice but you still have a Congress and I understand why a candidate for president or for any office should have a plan but understand that this this is not just we're not electing a number one to the president and Congress or whatever legislative body it may be is it's going to have to implement and pass that kind of legislation. So you need more than just one Senator Larson what impact on the Democratic effort here in the state. And does it maybe cause some strategy changes between now and November 3rd. I think it will have very little impact. I think the impact that it will present for most voters and I commend Perot for this is that I think they'll be

additional focus on the national debt and justifiably so. So I think he'll do a tremendous service to the public and to the quality of the base by raising that specific issue. I agree with the chairman Foley I think that there will be losses on both sides. We have to think of course on the Democratic side that we will be the benefactors overall with Perot in Iraq. I think the American public simply are in the mood to embrace change and don't think that they view Ross Perot's candidacy is as realistic especially coming at this late date and that we feel rather confident that the mood of the general public will be one of change and they are going to embrace the Clinton Gore ticket with his situation had been different if when he first looked like he was going to get in and stay in. Earlier this year he had indeed stayed in because back three or four months ago his numbers

at least in the early polls in Connecticut meaning Ross Perot's numbers were very good at one time he was apparently leading everybody in the state if he had stayed in would that have made more of a major difference. Well I think juncture at the time that this could be thrown into the House of Representatives and those that follow the Electoral College and look at how the breaks of the votes will be broken down. And indicated that at that particular time that was a very clear possibility. But I think his Perot's backing out when he did and I think that that left an indelible imprint on the minds of Americans and with all due respect to Perot and his message I don't think he's going to see more than 10 percent of the vote nationally. Well it's interesting strategically I think that it was a mistake and Ross admitted that. But tactically I'm not sure it was a mistake. Perot went forward got

on the ballots in all 50 states still had the volunteers working. And keep in mind what happened when he pulled out he pulled out the last night of the Democratic Convention. The Democrats have been attacking Perot at their convention. All of a sudden in that light last night they had nothing but nice things to say about Perot had Perot been been continued to stay in the race. He would have been been you know lambasted at the Republican convention. They wouldn't have just been taking potshots at Bill Clinton. They would have been taking potshots at Ross Perot. So I mean the campaign went forward. Behind the scenes publicly yes it hurt us with the volunteers. And Ross apologized for that yesterday. But I think four weeks is enough we just have to look at recent history here in Connecticut Brooke Johnson got into the race late in the Senate campaign and clearly in that race money and a good message overcame his late entry. Well it probably will it like a stealth candidacy at this point. And I would suggest the father of the two gentlemen who both know

pretty well we're sitting here with me I'm probably the person who's been through several three way race as the state and let me tell you about three way races and that is that the the candidate who is the was the odd man out opens that are high and close is out there. Well. Now there are people who would point well Governor Weicker and he certainly did get elected I'm not I'm not demanding a recount the 1990 election today and today. We want to wait till after this election is over for do that. But. Governor wagger opened that 63 of the polls in close to 40 John Harrison opened to 23 24 closed at night. Ross Perot opened at 33 and it's now down to seven. Do I think he'll be higher to seven. Yeah I think. I think John's about rights maybe seven babies 10 maybe 12. The question is not really. How many votes Perot gets. That's the secondary goal. The question is who's you take him from most. And my Democratic friends all this past summer have been hooting and hollering that that 70 percent of the pro-people went to them. Well now that goes back

in the race they're saying that all the lost comes on Bush side. Well you could. It was hard hard to have it bad but both ways and that by the way the quick polling numbers the last two or three days don't reflect the fact that Clinton being head hurt a bit more. I find it I find it's absolutely amazing it happens for Dallas again that whenever you hear the analysis from the Republican and the Democratic camps you know when they were down there they both said we agree with 80 percent or 75 percent of the Perot program but these guys can never agree with each other. And that's the whole reason Nothing's ever happening in Washington. Every pundit I've seen on the Democratic side says it hurts Bush. Every. Pundit. On the Republican side says it hurts Clinton. I mean clearly these are professionals. They should know. But they just want to say to the public what's in their political advantage and try to make that. Turn that perspective into a reality. I think. I think the perspective is a very simple one and you can fool the American public. And I think they see Ross Perot for what he is. And

you pointed out very well he has the money to buy his way into a presidential election. Well frankly I don't think that kind of politics however strong your message is one that the American public is going to latch on to. But these are not offices that are up for sale. Well and I think that comes across with Ross Perot an immense ego that a single man that the American public should cast its fate with the single men predominantly because he has the wealth and means to deliver a message not withstanding that some of his points specifically around the national debt are points that should be examined. John I'm glad I'm glad to hear you say it should be for sale because I think that gentleman is running for state senate where you've raised 60 70000 dollars and he's raised five or six I'm sure he'd be happy to hear that. I'm sure you're going to share that with your campaign funds with him so you can have a

honest where the brakes aren't yet ready to quit. We'll get back to the Rush growth. Well I finally broke Johnson about like time horizon though. I like Ross. Ross said when he first got into the race he was seeking to buy this to the American people the Republican the Democratic candidates had spent the last two years out there raising money from special interests. What's worse buying the press or selling it. Well Chris got to tell you that that's nice rhetoric. It will be nice that masquerade of reality because it does. And by the way you know this but most everybody else is if you tell most public opinion polls indicate that Ross Perot has very little chance of winning. And you yourself said in newspaper stories on Friday that you realistically believe he can't win given that there's so little time left. But you believe that he can be enough of a factor to draw enough votes to put the election in the House of Representatives given the fact that he can't win as a voter out there. Why should anybody throw their vote away on him.

Well let me correct you on two points. First I know and in the pro campaign we know it's going to be a long hard fight here in Connecticut. Meeting with the other state leaders we are going to be competitive and highly competitive and in a number of states and key states. As to throwing it into the house that that's been a misperception out there this year it doesn't get thrown into the house he gets thrown into the Electoral College. And if Perot carries four or five key states denies Bush and Clinton the 270 votes needed to win. If you thought they came to Dallas willing to negotiate wait until the Perot electors would have had the swing votes in the Electoral College. But again it gets back to the question if he can't win why should anybody vote for him. But but the point is is wrong Ross's message and the key here John's mention that it's a good point. The deficit we've run up in the last 12 years. Three trillion dollars in debt. What

have we gotten for that. The budget deficit last year $360 million. The great thing about a three way race that Dick didn't mention is that it changes the dynamic. It's no longer a zero sum game when it's just when it's just Bush and Clinton. Once gain is the others loss in a three way race. We saw this in the primary in Illinois. If one candidate attacks another that their candidate is staying in with the positive message comes through. That's what we're hoping to see here in this race. We've got a positive message from all of that to happen first I really yet to see that. The look the it's nice to speculate on these things and it is nice to do the rhetoric but the right it doesn't serve the purpose. We're not what we're talking about here are we talk about the Clinton who hurts more and things like that talking about hard numbers but going by what the numbers are the numbers are. Now there are different polls that bounce around different ways. I understand that's always going to happen. OK. But generally speaking I don't think it's overstate

this. This will inevitably hurt Clinton a little bit more than it hurts Bush. It is not it's not definitive. By the way you talk about buying this election in public. That's nice. OK. But the answer is Well we're going to throw it the Electoral College and negotiate. Well last time I checked. OK. That's Max to me as the old politics of usual that pro-white hope to reject. So what we to now we're going to go to the highest bidder. So we're not buying it going to the highest bidder now. Whoever does more what we want we'll we'll we'll toss a few electoral college votes for that. Is that better not be the Perot message. That better not be the Bush message or the Clinton message because that's a bad message for all three. I do think that what Perot will provide again is an elevation of the other debate and I think again focusing on the need for change and I believe ultimately realistically and when the public goes to the polls that with the concept of change on their mind that they're going to vote for Clinton and Gore because they present the clearest

sign for a change and domestic level that this country desperately needs. And to that end I think Perot will serve a very strong purpose in this race. I don't think the overall he's going to be a factor in the overall outcome other than I agree with that. I think it's he's going to take people away from both sides. But I believe the predominant message out there for a change ultimately will produce Democratic votes for Clinton and Gore. Well it's interesting with this change. We had a very good presentation by the Democrats in Dallas. They came across with a number of new items for example they pointed out that anybody that joins a Clinton administration is not going to be allowed to serve as a lobbyist for five years and for their lifetime will not be able to serve as registered foreign lobbyist. My concern there is that that's a promise that Bill Clinton is making. Yet Ron Brown chairman of the Democratic National Committee his law firm

serves as serves as counsel as a registered foreign lobbyist to a number of foreign companies and foreign corporations. Bill Clinton advocates his change. He's going to come to Washington. He's going to get stuck with a Democratic Congress that's telling him what to do. That same old Democratic leadership in Washington. And if you want real change you know it's ROSSBOROUGH governor Weicker here in Connecticut showed that an independent can and now I know Dick doesn't agree with what the governor's done. But it shows clearly Governor Weicker doesn't have any of his party members elected here in Connecticut in the house of the Senate. And yet he was able to get legislation through James what kind of a campaign will the Perot people be running here in Connecticut Do you think. I mean do you know any of that yet what kind of strategy we're going to see in the state. Are you going to have some money to spend the wheel and radio what kind of Perot effort will really be in Connecticut. Or can you tell us at this stage.

Well to I guess to quote Russ. Macy's doesn't tell Gimbel's and I'm not going I don't know Dick Foley but are you hopeful Ron Ross does have a plan. He has 30 second spots in 30 minute infomercials in fact the interesting thing is there was discussion last night that Ross is trying to get the message out on the debt and the deficit is so important. He had offered to buy the Concord Coalition which is the Tsongas Rudman group one hour of air time next week. He would pay for it. They would have complete editorial control over what are you going to be able to ring up. You know Ross Perot and dollars say or as somebody in Connecticut and the Perot organization going to be able to ring up and say I think he'd be a good idea if we did this and this in Connecticut and they're going to send you a check or some help and that you're going to be able to. Right. Well one is we're we're we're already geared up. We've got a major event coming up on Sunday here in Wallingford. In fact we've invited the Republican and Democratic candidates to attend said that the public can come in some

of the issues as as to our communication with Dallas vis a vis the campaign. Yes we have submitted a plan to Dallas and that plan is being modified and we will see an active campaign. In Connecticut Ross Perot indicated during his speech yesterday that one of the main reasons he got back and it is because that neither the Democratic nor the Republican presidential candidate has produced a viable plan for dealing with the massive federal deficit. And certainly that's an issue that fear in people's minds is that is that this runaway deficit it is killing the economy. What can you offer up Centifolia and Senator Larson to voters who say that neither President Bush nor Bill Clinton has a plan to reduce the deficit. Well I I served with John for 10 years now on the General Assembly. And I would tell you that generally speaking voters are not very willing to accept a lot of the hard choices they've got to be made. And I would tell you that that legislators are willing to accept those choices. But but that vote voters you

know sprang up in arms and when you talk about spending cuts on their pet programs. I'll tell you further that this will be coming out in the press the next two or three weeks that if for example the Ronald Reagan budget of 1984 would so-called drop dead budget haven't passed. Not only would we have a federal deficit we would stay with us with a surplus today. Question is are you prepared to make the hard choices. And I would suggest that that we should never ever hope. That America gets put through what got put through last year. We should never hope that we had gridlock and deadlock and people at each other's throats and screaming and shouting in the streets we should never hold it. But you've got to have a balanced budget. I would know I would tell you that didn't produce a balanced budget. And I'll tell you right now if you buy those numbers. OK. I hope you're reading it out because very very simply we all know OK well these four of us sitting here know OK I got you weren't part of the budget debate last year and I don't hold that against you. You're lucky you weren't out the simplest fact of the matter is that

that we are the one that's with blue blue smoke and mirrors. We've borrowed. We've bonded. OK. And all of a sudden now with a magical twenty nine million dollars for the Hartford Whalers I understand preserving jobs. I think you know it's nice to have 30 Canadians still working in Connecticut. Let me a couple of things on that Chris. First I think from a very realistic standpoint there's about 30 plus days left to the election. Realistically the two camps Democrat and Republican both have put out proposals to deal with the deficit. But in a very conceptual vein because to deal with it is going to require an enormous hard choices on the part of the American public. It's going to be very difficult when you talk about a national debt of three trillion that equivocates to forty thousand dollars per household in this country. You begin to see the enormity of the problem that we face. I do believe that

Ross Perot serves the country to the extent that he is going to highlight that point and whoever becomes president is going to have to face this issue but not only as president it's an issue that will have to be faced by the Congress by legislatures and by municipal governments. It's going to be a demand on calling for an entire restructuring of our tax code from top to bottom. It just simply has to take place. So I commend Perot for that. Both camps have put forward proposals with regard to the deficit. I would say that the parole medicine is more in tune with what we're going to have to do. I think the reason that they've put forth conceptual proposals is rather clear that politically neither side can afford to take a 30 second hit by the other on TV in an election that is going to be extremely close by anyone's observation even though

the numbers as my good colleague would say are strongly and decidedly in our favor as we speak today. JOHN MARSDEN Dick Foley is a good Democrat and as a good Republican. Were either of you upset or a little nervous when you saw Republican leaders and Democratic leaders on the national level in Dallas this week kind of hat in hand visiting you know Ross Perot and his people. Some people suggested it was pandering at very worst where either of you uncomfortable with the fact that we've got a convention I understand coming up this Wednesday this Sunday. Senator Dodd we understand is going to be there Brooke. John so we understand is going to be talking to the Perot people that that make you upset that bother you at all. Part of it bothers me in part about going to war for wanting for it and talking to rank and file individuals and voters. That part doesn't bother me because that's the rover. And he can't talk to as many voters regard as their persuasion as you can so that

that's reasonable. Well I'll tell you this. You know it's my Republican friends might not like this and maybe that's why it wasn't my call. It was my call. What has anybody done with this that anybody would ask would it would have been a very simple public statement. Look I would I would like your support. Look I understand what you're saying. We are going to because we know essentially the simplest of all things. On fiscal issues the Republican Party is always way more conservative. The Democratic party of fiscal issues. It's that simple. And and that's a historical point. The if was me I wouldn't send a bastard it out. Senator Boxer. Well I there's two things that are happening here. One is a very pragmatic reality of dealing with a political election. So on one hand I understand the rationale as a Democrat I agree. I don't think we should be catering to either side but there's a deeper message

here and that's that this is serve as a wake up call for both political parties. The fact of the matter is in truth that both political parties I think and this will offend a lot of Democrats have been a mere shell Ben-Meir structure for what our candidate campaigns and you know we talk a lot about infrastructure improvement. And clearly there's a need for improvement of the physical infrastructure in the human infrastructure. But the civic infrastructure as well needs to be improved across this country. Again that in fact may be a great contribution. I'm part of Perot that he wakes up the political parties that there is he wakes up the citizenry of this of this country as well. And so that we begin to get more involved to create a different kind of dialogue with the general public who for the most part is fed up with campaign promises that seem to them all to hollow and don't deal specifically with the truth.

CHRIS less than five minutes. Can I ask you Mr. Patel to put on you to gaze into a crystal ball. Some polls show Perot with about 12 percent of the vote that the most recent one started getting 12 percent Connecticut. How much of the vote do you think he will get and also for a fall and Senator election. How much do you think Ross Perot will get in Connecticut. I would say in great part that depends on what the mood of the campaign is for the last four weeks. If it's positive on all three fronts which I hope it will be Ross is going to have a lot harder time climbing in the polls. But if the two sides continue to swing at each other and start swinging at Perot I think that you know the voters will get sick and tired of politics as usual. And take a stronger look at Perot. You know my hope is of course that we could win this state. But my realistic judgment would say that that could get up to the 20 25 percent range would would be would be a target of xenophobe.

Well I think that's a that's a nice target. I would point out 25 percent probably guarantees you a bronze medal on this one. That we though that was nice to the medal ceremony to get a bronze. This is this is not the Olympics that third place doesn't that doesn't play in this race. Further I would almost and your state has gone way up that the fantasy of fable before of electoral college people pledged to Preux is predicated upon simple fact that he's got to win states. OK. And I'll tell you right now I don't think he wins the state any place in this country. I don't think want to state anywhere in the country. I do think he'll serve as I indicated before a very strong purpose in terms of raising the level of debate and I believe that when you raise the level of debate throughout the country but specifically in these in the state of Connecticut and you focus on the need for change you focus on the need for universal access to health care a need for a domestic agenda and industrial policy that puts people back to work. Real choice

especially the right for woman's reproductive rights by virtue of choice. I believe that people are going to come out in record numbers and vote for Clinton and Gore depending on what happens on Election Day and obviously none of us really knows. Is this third party effort from the Perot point of view is this going to continue on in Connecticut. And that's why we formed United we stand and I might point out that that third party effort is only an option. There's all sorts of ways ways we can go that's why we've been in contact with the Concord Coalition. We have folks coming up from Leader leave to give us all sorts of reasons to go. I just want to add one thing to something John said was The other thing he does getting in the race and something I hope will happen is it changes the public's focus from short term to long term that both parties have said to seriously address the deficit. It's got to be a six or seven year program and it's got to be a program that involves some sort of pain and sacrifice but a minute left.

Take a half a minute how close is this race in Connecticut with five weeks to go. It'll be under 10 points on a 10 point or 10 points. Senator Larson from the legislative point of view how close is this. I think the race is still close so we were rather confident at this time. But I think it's still going to be a close race. But we have not carried this state since Hubert Humphrey in 1968 and we are going to carry this state this year and we're rather confident about that national debates critical very from Bush's point at this point. But I think from Bush's perspective in particular when you're right whether you're behind and we are behind in Connecticut that you've got to change that dynamic that's the reason why the poetry helps Bush essentially changes the dynamic. Last word we're done. Gentlemen thank you very much for being with us. Thanks for being on our program. Our guest Jane Boutelle of the James Boutelle of the Connecticut Parow campaign. We think Republican state chairman Richard Foley and we thank State Senator John Larson Democrat from East Hartford president pro tem.

Our thanks to Chris Lee the Connecticut Post and I'm Bob Douglas. Please join us next time for another interview on the record