Abortion: A National Town Meeting

Lord. Lord. Lord. Lord. Funding for the following program has been provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Line by line. What. Was the call went out from Molly Yard president of the National Organization for Women. What seemed to be the largest rally ever for supporters of freedom of choice on the issue of abortion. It happened in Washington today Sunday April 9 where thousands marched to declare their support for legalized abortion. Along the route

from the Washington Monument to the Capitol smaller rival groups of right to life advocates declared their cause. They had erected white crosses symbolizing their opposition but there appeared to be little or no violence except in the rhetoric of some. Wife and I want time were deceived by a live abortion. And we killed two of our own children. It's not the tool it's murder. Magic episode in the ongoing clash between those on both sides of an emotional American issue. Good evening. I'm Fred Graham. Since 1973 over 20 million Americans abortions have been performed legally in the United States. Now for some this represents a woman's right to decide whether or not she will bear a child. For others abortion is little more than legalized murder. Join us please as we examine both sides of this difficult issue on abortion national town meeting. Here in the next hour we'll tackle

some of the basic issues that have deeply divided the pro-choice and the pro-life movement since abortion was legalized in 1973. Joining us are representatives from both sides of the issue. And there's a studio audience here that will participate later on in our debate. But first we need to set the scene and consider why abortion has returned so prominently to the public agenda. Part of the frustration that has repeatedly boiled up among opponents of abortion is that a woman's right to abortion was declared by the Supreme Court in its 1973 decision Roe vs. Wade. It seemed to the right to life forces that they could only reverse that through an amendment to the Constitution. But ironically today the hopes of the anti-abortion movement live with the Supreme Court which will rule again on abortion within the next three months. Ronald Reagan's conservative appointments seem to have tipped the balance of the court against abortion. Four justices Rehnquist whi O'Connor and

Scalia are known critics of the right to abortion. This gives the swing vote to Justice Anthony Kennedy a Reagan appointee who has not yet taken a position on abortion but is thought to be against it. But like Opinion polls show that almost non out of 10 Americans support the right to abortion when a woman's health is endangered. But that support declines to less than 40 percent when the woman simply does not want to bear the child. And now permit me to introduce you to our two panels. First on the pro-choice side we have with us Kate Michelman who is the executive director of the National Abortion Rights Action League known to many of us as welcome. And next to her is the Reverend Bill Schultz. He's the president of the Unitarian denomination in the United States and Bill is a leader of religious groups supporting free choice. Reverend she was glad to have you with us and next Dr. Louise Tire. She is vice president for medical affairs for the Planned Parenthood Federation of America Dr. Tara thank you. And now we're

going over to the right to life side. Susan Smith of the National Right to Life Committee. Susan welcome. And an old friend of mine Nellie Gray who is president of the March for Life and a lawyer. And next to her Dr. Stephanie O'Callahan the U.S. Catholic Conference Dr. Callahan is a psychologist. And we'll get back to her specialty in just a moment. Now Kate Michelman in my introduction there I talk about this being the largest pro-choice rally in the United States I understand you think it deserves a better accolade than that. Well Fred I'll tell you it was unbelievable. There were 600000 people in Washington today. In support of a woman's right to choose. It wasn't only the largest write in support of a woman's right to choose but it was probably the largest march ever in the history of Washington. What has happened is that Americans ask themselves the question is who's going to decide it's not the issue of whether you're for or against abortion but who gets to make the difficult decision who gets to choose is it politicians or

women and today they marched in Washington to tell us who choose. You're very savvy in these matters. The decision here is going to be made probably by one justice on the Supreme Court and do you really believe that this episode today will sway a justice. Well you know the Supreme Court does not issue its decisions in a vacuum. It's very sensitive and to and concerned about the social climate the social values that are shared by Americans the right to privacy the right to make individual decisions is an important and important value in American life and today the court heard where the majority stands on this on this issue. You know I want to get back to that in a minute as to whether or not it really is a good idea for non elected justices in a democracy to be making decisions of this importance. But first Nellie gray now over the years you and I have interviewed you on this subject and you've been frustrated in plenty of time on the right to life side. Because the

decisions were being made by judges and you couldn't affect them. How does it make you feel now to see some consternation from the other side over what the Supreme Court might do. Well I think the consternation has to be about the language and I want to say something about your introduction you said that killing the pre-born children is legal and it's merely decriminalized that's all does it I mean just sort of like you said it was legal Fred and I think it's just decriminalized. And I think what we also want to know what is this choice that we're talking about. Because nobody's talking about the substance of this decision. What we're talking about is the choice to kill an innocent pre-born child. And let me show you what their choice looks like. Killing innocent pre-born children and that's the choice and that's the crux of the matter is the reason it is so live and the reason the issue won't go away. There is absolutely no in between you're either for killing innocent pre-born children or you're not. Well that is setting it at a rather basic level that is basic as they come. We're going to get back to that but I do want to while we're talking about the Supreme Court.

Bill shools. Does it concern you in any way. In a democracy. That a decision this important is being made by a non elected judges. This is the way we make all sorts of important decisions Fred but the key issue here is a religious question. The key issue is at what point does fetal life turn into full human life entitle to the rights and protections of the Constitution. Well that legislature of Missouri has said at the point of conception exactly the legislature of Missouri has taken a religious position. It has opted for that position held by some people out of some religious traditions. But there are many other religious traditions that are saying that even if it is a religious matter then absolutely this issue it's a human rights issue and the question is not whether a woman has the right or where the decision to bear a child when she's pregnant she's with child. And the question before us is whether or not she has the right to kill that

child. Now is it a does it if the Supreme Court. If it let's say Fred I'm going to get the what how for it goes with this but let's say it reverses Roe versus Wade and it permits now the states to do what they will always mean the way they do before 1973 and most states protected unborn children. I know how old any of the states would you say. Well we'll make it a crime. Well I think in almost all states will prohibit it in one fashion the important thing to remember is that right now states have no ability whatsoever to restrict abortion it's legal throughout all nine months there's no options whatsoever was not legal I want to I must I must I must we must not distort the realities here. Abortion abortion is a woman. The law says very clearly that the right to choose. A woman has a right to choose in the first trimester of pregnancy without any interference by any politician. Second

trimester the state has a has the right to come in to protect maternal health. The third trimester the state is permitted to regulate to protect fetus right and it has not already I-90 down always had like you said that you finished over 90 percent of all abortions in the United States chosen by women are chosen in the first trimester. So now do you want to start another one of yours. And I just comment on terms of what's going to happen if it returns to the states. What will happen is that we're going to have seven thousand four hundred sixty one state legislators getting into our private life making these moral decisions for us and I still think we really want to see that happen or we don't we want to declare that the innocent pre-born child is indeed a person in existence at fertilization and shall be protected by the Paramount human life amendment which we will enact. And that will assure that innocent human beings in existence at fertilization shall be protected by the Constitution both born and pretty born but you can't pass a human life on them.

Thanks. Thank you. We have a doctor. One point that has been totally left out is the rights of the woman and the health and the life of the woman. I was a resident physician before and before abortion was legalized and so many women have an admitted to the hospital with serious complications to their life and their health dying on the wards because of having to be forced to go to a back alley abortion. Abortion is to go after the legal abortion is simple really just can't avoid it or just consider that in the United States we are suggesting. That medical service and medical procedure really isn't. Made it illegal so that women will not have the option of a nerdy older stranger. Women are dying all over the world in third world countries where abortion is

illegal because they can't get there they don't have access to and medical procedure. It's outrageous I just don't believe it's outrageous to kill 200 harmony just for a moment here because Dr. Stephanie Calahan has in a sense had an experience that is the other side of the coin from what Dr. Tartt just described. What's been your experience as to the impact. On women as a result of abortion. Well I see hundreds and and I'm aware of many thousands of women who after abortion are suffering so badly and their lives are being torn to pieces. By having made this decision usually under pressure. But I feel that the public should really be aware that abortion is not a cure. For for the type of behavior that is happening today. Well let me just say however that if there was this tremendous problem of psychological trauma the mental wards and the doctors

psychiatrists office would be overflowing. We are used to you know I'm nice and I are not data federally and that's why women suffer much more psychological traumas and depressions acute depressions postpartum than they do from abortion actually worth knowing I had that son was ready I usually feel a great sense of relief. Some women do have anxiety but we all have to make choices and we have to live with. That's why we call this side pro abortion because they're telling us that abortion is better than childbirth that women suffer when they bear a lot of children more than they suffer want to have. When I was about to kill him. Thanks. Thank you so much. Thank god I'm tired. Said that the data apparently does not support. Doctor the surgeon general. C. Everett Koop just said that the data does not support the proposition that there is serious psychological or physical harm to women from abortion now as a

matter of fact I met with Surgeon General cope and was I in my group who tried to make it quite clear to him that the research was really not very good and conclusive on either side. After all of this time when I'd like what he said he said that your position and with all respect due to your position you say that your position is largely based upon anecdotes upon incidents which you see clearly have experience and the knowledge that you did. I'm sorry but he said that when you look at the data. It doesn't support you very well know you didn't say that in this matter of fact I have reviewed the data and I've gone over the data with Pam and their research studies on both sides of the issue in terms of large scale data. The anecdotal data is very broadly showing that post-abortion syndrome is a very serious problem that's happening to women after abortion. It happens to some like it did to myself immediately after abortion and it happens to others either months or years and sometimes many many

years later either at the time of the birth of another child at the time of another abortion. But it happens to more than the majority of women in some serious respects because I was before we proceed. Yes I know just one sentence. I just want to say we met with Everett Koop also and if there had been data to support the position that the opposition puts forward he would have published his report which he elected not to do. It's a as a as a Also as a legal matter however that America shall not be blackmailed by people who want to perform abortions are hurting women's bodies and killing pre-born children. We are not going to be blackmailed by there and then charging that there. To continue their criminal activities of hurting women whether or not they can do it with the Supreme Court's blessing we're not going to be blackmailed that we're going to have a country killing our people just like Germany killed the Jews. We're not going to suffer. That trauma and America from all of the killing of

25 million innocent pre-born children. It will not happen. When people say if you don't let them kill them under the Supreme Court's interest they're going to do it anyway and they're going to kill the children and hurt the women forever. If women are suffering trauma after abortion it is in part because of this kind of outrage at read right from from there so that is where I live so our. Thank you. Letter just a few things if I may. To continue to refer to the killing of unborn children. Is to make a religious statement that in your opinion human life begins at conception. I respect your opinion but it is one religious perspective and it is not the perspective held by many other religious faith tradition ideologically. Accurately homosexually let us know that a cell mate held. Secondly let me say that to consider any trauma that results from abortion and to ignore the trauma that results from requiring a 12 year old woman who is the victim of rape or incest to carry a fetus to term. Now there's

trauma to ignore the trauma of forcing a woman to bear and and child who has no brain and no skull to bear that child to term and then care for to ignore that trauma. That isn't a pro-life perspective. That isn't a humane prevail you know like how can I say I don't want me for the way I am. Babies don't let me exercise the prerogative of the moderator and I modest as it may be we're going to get back in. But I do feel that for the benefit of our audience here and our television viewers we should step back for just a second and talk for a minute about the Supreme Court. Case and what could happen. It's a case for Missouri in which the legislature of Missouri has declared in all of its majesty the life of each human being but Ganz at conception. Right now the Supreme Court may or may not have to say whether or not that is a valid statement or unconstitutional statement. There are other provisions of that statute statute which limit in some there are ways of

warships that forbids people who work with the state councilors to. I advise people to have abortions and it has a strict limit against the use of funds directly or indirectly for abortions. Now here is my question and I'm going to ask Kate Michelman for do you think the Supreme Court is likely to either overturn Roe vs. Wade or seriously limit it in this case. I think there's a good possibility given that Ronald Reagan has appointed this court in a large part of this court and he used the litmus test of abortion on this issue. I don't mean to overt would you expect him so than trying to cut back on it. Well. What's important here is that we should not prejudge the court number one. I mean the court we don't have a crystal ball. And the court has repeatedly reaffirmed the Roe versus Wade decision that legalized abortion and we expect them to do that again. However we do know that the court has changed and that we have great concern that they could

either partially or fully overturn the decision. And if they and I want to I want to really characterize what you said you said partially limit or narrow the right way. Have to be careful about how we talk about this. There is no moderate position on a constitutional right to privacy or a constitutional right to choose. If if the court allows the restrictions for the women who are affected by those restrictions there is no right any longer we then divided the country into people who can fly off wealthier women who can go get abortions safely and poor younger and working class women who will be desperately affected by losing their right to anyone like living let me go on from there because I want to ask you this question. If the Supreme Court does as Kate Michelman thinks that it might either in this decision or perhaps a few years down the line and that is so that once again the states are virtually free to put severe limits on

the right to have abortions. How. And someone on this panel has already said most of the states you feel would. Isn't that going to result. In in what was just described here wealthy women able to fly from state to state and still get their abortions. Poor women can't. Well the discrimination is against the unborn child in the rich woman's womb. Are you saying that it's discrimination to save poor women's babies. We don't think so. We you know our ultimate goal is to protect all children whether they're born of rich parents or poor parents but I understand right now this is an absolute right. Women have an absolute right for any reason at any point in their pregnancy to abort the child will stay I'm sure. They are have no interest in preserving our life for that shall make a lot of lawyers would challenge that's all I see is. That you simply not read them to him Do you credit any response to it then. Exactly what she is saying Unfortunately the Supreme Court when it tried to legislate the killing of

pre-born children unfortunately said that they could kill them in the early months but they also put such restrictions on the reasons to save the pre-born children such as the health of the mother that it is practically a matter that you can kill the innocent. Decriminalize what you are saying and I'll tell you my me so you leave children right until the umbilical cord with you are saying is that although the Supreme Court may not have really said this is an absolute right. You're saying that as a practical matter. Oh I couldn't agree more laws so the court said that in the third trimester the state would regulate abortion except to preserve the life and health of the mother and Planned Parenthood themselves have said and in the decision the court said health included familial status psychological factors and the other side agrees with this and end it. And I've seen it and I would like to ask the three of you because my question is and I think the public has a right to know this. If the Supreme Court as some people here feel it will eventually overturns Roe versus Wade.

Is are is is your side going to try to outlaw all abortions in all the states if you can absolutely all right now watch this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you will not allow. This result in a return to something like the situation we had before when very Days us about bourses were being done I would talk about that is are you Asian in 1972. The CDC reported that 39 women died due to illegal abortions. Now those are 39 tragedies and we think that abortion is a terrible thing whether it's procured legally or illegally. The thirty nine deaths is nowhere near the numbers that they started. So you're saying that we will return to some illegal abortions but not as many and I know and we my organization wants to join with all those who really care about women's health and prosecute those butchers who victimize and take advantage of women. Time yes and Planned Parenthood we do not believe that Roe v. Wade will be

overturned. We believe that because of in this instance in the Webster case we know for a fact that there are no Webster case the Missouri case yes the Missouri case that there have been 33 m briefs in support of the Planned Parenthood Webster case. All done and submitted by the health professional organizations of the whole United States because they're making a killing baby who's backing up a woman's right. To have her health and life protected by being able to have safe and legal abortion they're not legal. Must say that the mere fact that the American Medical Association and 38 other associations comes to the Supreme Court and asked for an outcome doesn't necessarily mean doesn't really mean at all that's going to be there. And I think it's very impressive Fred how can those who call themselves pro-life. Even oppose abortions to save the life of the mother. How is having an equal care provision it's a very simple March for Life has developed these principles from the day of 1973 they are in our March for Life Journal I'll be glad

to give you a copy bill and with the with the explanation on the inside and what it says is we have two lives a mother and a preborn child and we ask the medical profession to do all they can to save both the mother and the preborn child sometimes they'll save both. Sometimes they may save one. They may not need side watchful eyes they will say they may not know a side that only the mother shall be saved and the baby being killed. The medical profession is in a position in a position today where they can indeed save both the mother and the preborn child equal care that is both the mother and the child and that is the best example Jesuitical thinking that I have ever had a dream I lived a lie and never. You didn't address that issue my dad address I say to you. Let me ask you point blank. Let's say we have a case where the medical opinion is quite clear as it often is that the mother will die if she bears it is not that clear in the welcome letter actually matches don't grind to make that right now and I didn't have it your

way I don't get it but we have the principle. Out events we're on a boat while years old and we see a colored man here that you won't even give equal care to both a mother and a child outside do you want to know even though I still love you baby. Let's give a real example I mean that let's let's look at the horrifying preview that we had a month or so ago up in Long Island a case known as the Klein case where a woman who was pregnant was in an accident. She was calm Atos. Her doctors advised her family that her her chances for survival might be improved if she were to have an abortion. She has a jihad let me finish please. She has a 3 year old daughter. And her husband she was and her family was very involved the doctors the court the court said or the doctor the hospital said that the husband would have to make the decision. Remember that case. Yes you of course what happened was when the when the husband went to court to get guardianship so that he could order the abortion to improve to give his wife

chances to survive to complete strangers. Out of the blue came and ensured that decision invaded that family's privacy. Got a court to try to get a court order to stay to to take guardianship over the woman in my Leventhal really to this. Well I'm sure. Yeah. It's. Raul. Thanks if Roe is overturned it allows for the invasion of strangers politicians and others. We can use our families are you know Ray and I and it was Roe vs. Wade the decision that legalized abortion never may have saved her life. Well actually you know you have Medal of Honor. Or should we go back to the law and as a as we all can act we kept it proudly I mean we do we go back to giving the the decision about what about the right to decide this important intimate personal decision to state politicians. That's what we do here and I hang out on the side of bizarre often who gave the decision that the woman didn't even examine the woman before he gave that decision that I'm very sorry you know the doctors

the nurses and I and I'm not interested in said Dr Sandy her and let me just not reality since that is a real case people have endured two years and of all abortions are performed for rape incest or to save the mother's life. 98 percent are performed because the child will interfere with the mother schoolwork with her job. It's an unplanned pregnancy now. Polls clearly show that most Americans the majority of Americans are opposed to abortions about these kind of casual circumstances. About a little below 40 percent about 39 percent. And let me ask. Any of you. Do you approve really of the use of abortion in this in the situation that Susan postulate. Well let me just point out that most abortions are done because of a woman's tremendous need to have an abortion if she would just have a you know model ever showing Bay she would have an illegal abortion if a legal abortion was not available.

But having never known an instance yet where a woman made a facetious decision or a convenience decision to have an abortion. Right. Very carefully thought out decision also rather loosely non-law so they probably never had to have an abortion. Oh you know right you have to have oh no there's you know there's no question at the polls. Also the view. That Americans have differing personal views on abortion they have different religious views they have different moral views they have different ethical values and all of us each of us comes to this decision with a different a different moral religious perspective. What the polls though also say is when you ask the question and you ask the public. Who should make these moral decisions who should make these death. Answer these ethical questions. They say not the politicians not the government. But the woman and the family who are directly involved in the decisions however few yeah yeah yeah.

But Americans are opposed to the 50 percent of all abortions that are performed because there are many orders that are never on and I had a fortune afterwards people don't understand that all abortions are second and third and fourth abortion is not a science it doesn't make any difference anyway the point is the politicians this is a homicide you're losing fact of what's happening you're killing a preborn child. Of course this is a state's business. How is it already born child but not in their early years and I say that is not helpful. Ignorance never learned what you know you know we have are very good how about you don't want to write and we were going to tell their ignorance if you don't know that a preborn child is in existence at first but now you have a right to your it's not about you don't have a right to impose it on an hourly basis I'm not going to St.. Louis. May I talk to. Dr. Callahan on this question because we seem to have reached a point here where I believe we do agree that the polls show extreme solid

support. For abortion when the health of the mother is involved but. Less than 40 percent thirty nine or so. Disapproval of when. When it's mostly an unwanted child for some reason. In your experience is there more. Guilt as you would see it in a case in which that was the reason for the abortion. In almost every case of abortion that I see and know about the woman. Has felt pressure to abort against her actual underlying feelings and what she's had to do is pretend to herself against what she really knows that there is not a baby inside of her but she knows that there's a baby inside of her and she hears the rhetoric of abortion and terminations of pregnancy and she feels strong pressure to do what her boyfriend or her husband is asking her to do. And. Almost all women who've had

abortions who come to me and have very serious post-abortion syndrome say they would never ever ever do it again. And if only they had had the poort to keep that baby they would absolutely have done killing him. That is the most condescending view of women that I have never seen anything restless to suggest that they aren't independent moral decision makers but are simply yielding to the pressure they are and simply yielding to the pressure of men I think men should be educated to know what a tragedy abortion poses to women and children. I had an abortion by the way I'm sitting here and there may be others in the audience who have had an abortion. I had an abortion. I had three children before I had an abortion so I wasn't trying to deny that I knew there was a child at the other end. I made the most moral the most ethical the most right decision that I probably have ever made in my entire life and and I have I have. I have lived with that decision very well all my life and should we should praise the Lord that you are living with sanity after that decision.

But I know it when I have done most of the women are and I have. Their Oh I don't know how I'm walking I hear a very saying very morrow I have 14 my own children I have had five miscarriages and I lost one of my back years. I want to get to abortion. And I know how it feels I myself went through a very devastating effect of abortion and it was at that point I a Jewish woman became involved with the Catholic bishops in the Catholic Church because they were among the very few people who would give me the loving comfort and support in being able to heal myself from this. Stephanie since you had such a bad experience we feel badly about that and it's very unfortunate but should your experience mean that no woman should ever have the right to make her own decision about this. I don't think my experience period should be in post-modernism various I'm not imposing anything on you on my experience has has enabled me to recover to some very important degree and to become involved and knowledgeable about the abortion

experience and post-abortion trauma which is devastating and which is affecting millions and millions and millions of women as you know not as James just now and I have treated that's just not just you know it's I don't want to you know let's remember. What you've said is has been very meaningful I'm sure both of you to many people I have two specific issues I would like to bring up and then we are going to involve the audience that has been very attentive and I've been very patient here with us. First of all. And I guess probably Dr Tarr would be the best but I appreciate the answers. Is it possible that this entire issue abortion issue will be finished by the coming to America. The French abortion pill which I presume will happen perhaps in the next decade. This pill as I understand it would make abortions available very early on. One could take a pill and no one would ever know doesn't that do away with blowing up judges.

No it doesn't do away with the issue because a very small percentage of women at the present time would come early enough it has to be used within five to six weeks after the missed period and there are many other reasons for later abortions such as the discovery that there is a congenital malformation by doing certain types of tests that have to be done later in pregnancy. So and I believe that the opposition would as much oppose the French pill RU 486 as they would the surgical turns around. Saying that we that we oppose it is because it's dangerous to women it causes heavy bleeding babies we don't know what the long term effects of the pill on him and so to say that you're for the health of women and to promote this pill as you want is the greatest answer in this area resident or it is so disingenuous for you to sit there and try to claim you are for the health of women you never mention the lives and health of women or consider it would you consider what would happen to women if abortion was married how do I

know not worse than having his heart as a Victorian era whole degradation it is time it is simply abortion was it always a crime. It still is a crime it never was a crime until it was not and yet not crime it's a crime against humanity and it's only decriminalized and I think that it is very very obscene for people who have experienced this tragedy to try to make it respectable. Killing babies was never respectable. It never will be the people who want to continue killing babies are not respectable any more you know a lot of people are racist because of respectability. Thanks. Thank you my next question is to any of you I think maybe Susan Smith might want to answer it because there I gather there's a sense among the pro-life establishment and I have to presume that I'm in the presence of part of it here that Operation Rescue is not very respectable and yes it is we had some people who objected to being on this program from the pro-life side.

If we were going to have someone from Operation Rescue and for the benefit of the television audience who might not know that's the group that's been having sometimes violent demonstrations sit ins you know right I know the law well but I am disappointed. Oh not well as you know right just because you were his no nonsense major pro-life organization engages itself and peaceful legal activity. Do you think of this group. Well you know they're engaged in illegal activity you know they are not engaged in the illegal activity. And you see now a bit of a cism on this entire thing. Right here the demonstration is the thing that freed us from segregation and that's what this is. As I said I am a parent of the civil rights menace to all who turn abortion via legal means and restore protection unborn children through legal means. And that's when Operation Rescue is only 72. What do you call the physical intimidation of women who try to enter clinics you call that legal it isn't legal because it lets you know right now this hour is the law of the land.

No right now there is this earth being criminalized it is true but let me tell you that civil disobedience in stopping the killing inside an aborted Taurima is that it is a proper right stopping a crime inside which is the killing of innocent pre-born children. There's absolutely nothing wrong in trying to rescue those children who are being slaughtered inside. Guard now we have all had our opportunity to have maybe and not our total say but substantial say and now we do want to bring in members of the US I'm going to ask you to step forward a bit so I'll be sure you're in the life where you just say your name and ask a question no speech specifically so I can't make a comment so I had to do. No Spanish or no not really. All right. Catherine O'Connor and I would like to say first of all I want to thank Nellie for and all of their panelists here for their straightforward and honest praise. These paralysed I feel that there was a great deal of use of euphemisms and hypocrisy on their part and I can mention many of

those here if I had the time but since you don't allow me I will just ask your question please alright overdoes like to say Nelly isn't it true. That whether legal or illegal abortion is a violent unnatural assault on a woman that kills both the baby and sometimes the mother and causes great trauma of all kinds that mother. And what I say to the abortionists Catherine is they must put down their knives and their drugs because those are the violent tools that they are using including intimidation of innocent women. Thank you very much. And please tell me your name and the question specifically you have one of the panel. Yes I'm Nancy Green here and I would like to ask a question over here to the anti-life people. I would like to know why a lot of money a loaded question at this moment. There is a pro-choice side over here yes. Biologically you're getting into religious feelings let's just get

biological. I would like to ask and I would like each of you to respond to the question. If it's not a baby at the moment of conception what is it. It's of notice let me ask specifically here we don't have time. But that's I think that's a biological question we have a physician here. Dr. Tartt I would offer to the the position of the entire medical community of the world. Is that fertilization. Is not synonymous with either the onset of pregnancy or the beginning of life implantation is the time that a pregnancy starts and that's about two weeks. Five to seven days to two weeks before implantation of that fertilized ovum is completed within the uterus. That's the onset of pregnancy or conception. But human life when that starts is an individual moral decision. And all over the map. Some people believe that it

starts at the moment of fertilization. They're entitled to that. Some people believe that human life or personhood and the law supports in the English what a lot of people are saying why would you want a $5 per person hood occurs at the time of the birth. So you're saying that some biological function may have started human life and your judgement sometimes turns out incorrect babies aren't babies until they're 3 days old should they have the right to snuff out the life of course when you have another question here please tell me your name where you're from and ask your question. My name is Helen Jordan and I'm from Baltimore and I'd like to ask Miss Michael Mann is one of the 600000 people that was out there demonstrating for a right to choose what's the best thing for people in the audience who would like to protect their rights to do tonight tomorrow next week. Tell you what we have to do we have to take this march and the energy this march generated and we have to go back out to the public. And we need to organize we need to educate we need to sign petitions we need to get people speaking out to their public officials. We need to get them writing letters.

We need to organize a very very powerful grassroots constituency. And we need to speak out. We need to really speak out that this is a right that we will not have taken away. Thank you very much. Please tell me your name where you're from and ask your question. My name is Carol Rick and I'm from Gaithersburg and I have a question for Kate. The question I have is that both Dr. Bernard Nathan Hsan a former executive with Nehru and now a pro-life that because that Surgeon General Koop have stated that that the statistics on maternal death figures were over exaggerated to support the abortion on demand consensus. I wanted to know why you continue to use this over exaggerated figures to support what you're doing. Well. I'll tell you why they're not. Thanks for that Elliott hardly came just a minute because I don't know in what sense exaggerated. Yes he understands the question but I'm not sure I did. How would they exaggerate the rover stated. As we heard this morning

he stated there are nine maternal this doctor coming and you're saying that and the number of deaths and complications were overstated and the question is well you know first of all Dr. Koop That's Dr. Nathan said in Dr. Koop. The there are many other doctors. Who have and who have stated if you want to call it stated who have stated that they that and that you know I understated that up to a million women a year sought back alley abortions and thousands died in fact all across this country in every city there were hospital wards literally hospital wards kept aside. Still only for the victims of back alley abortions. Now the reason by the way the statistics are not quite there. Let's be real here. It was illegal they didn't keep statistics read I do I have people I. Want I got I'm going to get an injunction I record on it and I would like Susan. OK do you Shawn and make it short before your time is going 1973 when

abortion was legalized in all 50 states and abortion clinics were open in all 50 states. There were seven hundred forty four thousand illegal abortions. Now we continue to hear from you Kate that there were 1.2 million the year before it was legalized that's preposterous to say that after it was legalized there were fewer. I didn't say there are 1.2 million. I said they were. It is estimated by experts doctors and others that you're angry more when it was you or you got it is that I don't have to intervene here but you're going to remember that all of this issue has become so you mysterious say we only have not one more dollar today but he's doing one heck of a lot about well he annoyed her and last question Are you the ones we're not part of your organization of the U.N. no authority. Bell I come from Annandale Virginia. I'm with the Knights of Columbus. I have the misfortune probably of being a registered professional engineer which instills in you a certain way of thinking which is a problem solving kind of thinking. There's a basic question nobody has really answered and the pro-abortion side of the fence when does life

begin. I remember the testimony of our partner we did we just addressed that ser and I and we had opinions from both sides and if we write out the other not I would like to ask but we have some room and he isn't sure when life begins. Well he would by killing a baby in 30 weeks of gestation and under the rules of when is taking human life justified self defense and what not. How could he justified the taking of that human life. It's 30 weeks gestation and certainly vulnerable. Will I have to say to you that these are very complex issues of faith upon which religious traditions differ. Now there are very respected religious traditions Jewish traditions the Protestant traditions which suggest that life begins at the point really when you protect unborn that your tradition is life begins at the point of conception. Tradition is a very diverse and complex judicial tradition is clear no it's no it's not OUR you can sit in there can do as Congress just had an idea and talked about

religious freedom and they our time is short right. We are going to have just a couple of moments of very briefly. First of all Kate Michelman your summation of what happened today. Well I think I think what what is absolutely important for us to to I do. Is that. This issue is not about whether you are for or against abortion. No one is pro abortion. No one likes abortion women have abortions they need not that they want the issue is who gets to make this intimate personal decision that many of us have to face is it going to be politicians or is it going to be the women and men and families and doctors most directly involved. Thank you very much I'm going to let Susan Smith wait on this because I have I'm told that I have jumped the gun we do have more time than I. Thank you very much and you keep your powder dry on this. All that and we will let you have your sight a moment in the meantime I do want to ask you if you will step right up here please please give us your

name and I ask you a question. My name is May have a scratch and is going to win because you have Jesus Christ most we know it's yours what is your question. My question is abortion is very wrong. We must not kill that's a statement Christiane. Well I don't really have any pressing I just want the abortion is wrong. Thank you for time. Thank you. And now sir please give us your name a name is Tom I don't know where you're from in Washington your question. I'd like to ask Ms Michelman or any of her colleagues if they see any substantive difference. Between abortion. And infanticide. And if so would that be your test. There are two different if you want one I'm going to now go ahead if you would like. Well then just answer that and then I hate if she wishes. We we continue to get back to a question of faith. You you equate

abortions with infanticide. It's clear that infant infanticide means what it says the killing of infants not infants is are clearly born children that there is no comparison between abortion and infanticide. These are two different issues and the issue of when a fetal life becomes full human life entitle to the full current rights and protection the Constitution is a religious question and a question of faith. And just as we do not impose the views of one church on birth control for example all the rest of us just as we don't insist that we should pray one prayer in our public schools that one religious tradition why it's so we don't try to impose this one religious perspective on the rest. Robert Jones let me ask you. What part of the problem. Obviously here he is that the assumption on one side the assumption that under some of these questions is that we are dealing with a human being you know the assumption of the Supreme Court decision of Roe vs. Wade was

that you are not dealing with a human being until a certain stage after just station. There I never dealt with when that stage detained when I that's what I want to ask you now. Dr Tire. There are those who say and Justice Sandra Day O'Connor has said this in some of her opinions that. Advances in medical technology with human fetuses are moving back the time of viability of that fetus so that it gets earlier and earlier after gestation. Doesn't that change. In fact some of the underpinnings of that decision and maybe maybe you do have a human being earlier than some of us have assumed. Well clearly the medical data support that there is almost no survivals fetuses before 24 weeks. And we do not believe it can be moved much back further than that now ever writings are permitted after 24 weeks under Roe versus Wade and they are particularly forward to save the

life of the woman or for major fetal anomaly so how so how do you deal with the question that you are. You're getting close to dealing with a human life here. Well as I indicated before that the decision about when human life begins was not addressed by the Supreme Court although they have heard presentations on both sides of the issue because it is an ethical and moral issue as has been here stated. And they couldn't if they could have come up with a definition of when human life began they certainly would have been the decision I'd like to ask Dr. tie or something do you deny that abortion is illegal and that a woman can get an abortion in any state in this country after her unborn baby is viable after 24 weeks for any reason. Not likely to be on life or the mother for any reason that it's then. Are you denying that there is no let me say it's not an unborn baby. Secondly let me say that to get it. Speaking. Of creative citizens are there that body I want to answer the question. Secondly the medical community itself. Has sent a

determination that if a fetus is viable and if there's really no indication for the health to save the life of the mother or because of fetal abnormalities by and large you cannot get an abortion anyplace in the United States after 20 and I asked if it was legal. Let me go back what a just a minute others the question is is it legal to get an abortion after in some cases the fetus is viable after five felony it's decriminalized and it is legal under will answer I'm there Feinerman are under certain answer calls and what are your circumstances land limit doesn't he so now women have let anyone I am not here I'm sorry down are tired but. And let you know how many of your sister you are in there and after 22 or 23 or weak point eight percent less than one tenth of one percent of all abortions are performed you're angry when you're sore weeks and there are four women being faced with death. Fetal to a death a new row. These When I was down here sea level rise

I say if you really did who argues that you are the viewers you are suggesting that women are running off to the delivery room having abortions. That is an insult to women no. Really sad you know not where I live and to the medical profession I was well off and let me just run through it when I am a sworn in as early when they know which is the right I think I have found the less I understand the answer the question from Susan Smith was under what circumstances in fact. Are abortions being performed legally. After the viability of the fetus and the answer from Dr. Tara as I understand it. Kate Michelman was there our song and life and life of the mother. Death in utero. Them for you and my daughter and I am really going to leave that may I ask one more quick. Are those the only ones. What if the mother just wants and I do not know in any sicker than I was in a minute. Is it like the not know of any circumstances where that would be accessible to a woman and it's no use the line is all that is the quality of what is not only has it lasted in time and all and all right here

later X that's partly why I think you know you're the one that's very for exactly 0 9 is my understanding the final trick the woman in the Dr from making a decision in the old days of the woman's health and life and rightly prefer to hear what Susan is saying is that it's legal it isn't legal We have a viable fetus in some instances. My question to you was would it be possible for that in fact to be exercised and the woman just didn't and but as I understand it it would mark. Because the doctor wouldn't do it because the doctor would not or state laws would restrict our salvation I have no intentions who has been pressured into abortion in nine months in their fifth month by state. Who said that because they had had postpartum depression previously they would have it again and so therefore they should have abortion which would ask if they can find a doctor to do it. It's how you divorce Unfortunately they kill the baby but the result is that to the village less limited Well I would let me ask the religious question here and then come to you Miss Grey.

As a as a minister what we've just heard here. Viable fetus. We're dependent on the doctor to say you know it's legal to abort that fetus as a minister. A lot of money obviously of course Fred obviously none of us like abortion because they're killing babies. But let me say that part of the problem of human life is to make very tough choices sometimes choices between two living entities that are not just simply say that we do our best to save both lives is to evade the fact is that sometimes you have to have a medical very difficult decision to save a woman's life on the let's say the Supreme Court in this upcoming case opens the door so that states can pass laws to make it illegal under the circumstance that is illegal for the viable fetus unless the the very very extreme circumstances that Kate mentioned before made it illegal to abort that fetus just

because the mother didn't want. To do all of that. Well I can't help but feel that any restriction to Roe v. Wade would restrict the capability of the physician and the woman to make a cure for a breast health decision for that in that instance and I'm going to be very. Health care decision in Iraq and now you know are they right or are you asking for more for us. You would object to making that illegal. Absolutely White House women and doctors need to be able to make the most. Important and profound decision in each circumstance facing a war not to kill but there is no way and there is no need to have. A restriction here and a restriction there women know what they need to do if they are faced with a crisis pregnant they cannot kill their women will have abortions later in pregnancy by the way are having them because the anti-choice side. Has imposed tremendous burdens they have they have made women they have which has made it harder for them to to act on their decision they have.

They have tried to get and have been successful in some states enforcing parental notification and consent so we are saying 18 others may have also. Been successful in and eliminating in many states public funds for women who depend on the federal government we have found here and these poor women that we have had to delay their yearly have it and what we've got now in this country is on restricted abortion the state and society has no ability to protect unborn children at any stage of their life by law or by law because as they are being protected by physicians decisions right. And I don't even know how the women until they walked until they're want to taken right into the abortion plane that's where they don't stay don't even know their names. And then you have a not so it would have been the majority of these boards you know we're going to get this discussion. Back to the real issue. I mean really really whether you're for or against abortion but who is going to make the decision because a bordello very limited action to go with it and they said 30

seconds. The point the point is that we've got to ask yourself What choice are we allowing people to make and the choice before us is whether or not people have the right to destroy the life of an unborn child. Person. To have. A. Right. For everyone here I'm sure for you particularly but I'm sure everyone and we thank you all. Well what you're saying and what you've heard here tonight you know it's unlikely that basic question concerning abortion are going to be resolved soon. But the issue is evolving and we just wanted to challenge what you think and then give you an opportunity to consider these questions again for yourself. And so for all of us we thank you for joining us. Good night. Up. This program was provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.