State Circle; The Great Stadium Debate: A State Circle Special

And. The. Bottom line is this. Both of the stadium projects will be good for Maryland's economy and will create jobs. I am looking for your opposition on this project and I will actively campaign against you. If you support the appropriations of this money the tax revenues that we get from both projects pay off the debt service that will owe the same time they spin off jobs. And that's how we can come up with almost nearly 300 million dollars that we're going to spend on two stadiums to subsidize to millionaires. This is a good deal for the state of mind. That. When my. Son. Live from Annapolis. Maryland public. Jim reason's. The great stadium to me. Est circle special. Here's your. Jeff Zucker. And good evening from Minneapolis I'm Jeff Salk

and for the next hour tonight we're going to tackle one of the most talked about issues of this session of the General Assembly the proposed construction of two new football stadiums in Maryland. We've assembled panels of leading figures on both sides of the debate and we're joined by a live audience here of interested citizens. First though we're going to go to the videotape for a look at how we got to this point. Days ago none of us saw it was a moment of triumph to camp the first year in office of Governor Parris Glendening a vow to pull the plug on a new state financed football stadium had shaken loose a team to replace the revered Colts who departed Charm City under cover of darkness nearly 12 years before. But the generous deal and the fact that the new team was being wrenched from the support of fans of Cleveland quickly dimmed the legislative and public enthusiasm. We should talk about the Ripken enormous the sagebrush. We have far more fans. In the U.S. state of Maryland at the same time the administration acted to end the wandering of

Washington Redskins owner Jack Kent Cooke his hunt for a location for a new Redskins stadium had included a long unproductive courtships with sites in D.C. Maryland and Virginia and then surely it will be a man in your words now. Under the Redskins deal the team will pay for its own stadium but the state has agreed to seventy three million dollars in roads and other site improvements. Again though there were critics. I think you better spend your 73 million on the citizens. Not on the billionaire. Because I guarantee you. Every one of you. We will look for the next election. If we want to see on the right. Of the tax. We need to say yes to the new stadium. Thank you very much. The tide began to turn when the NFL agreed to place a new team in Cleveland. But still large numbers of influential legislators demanded a cut in the state's total two

hundred seventy three million dollar financial commitment. Governor Glendening continued to maintain that the projects would be moneymakers for the state and pointed to the once controversial construction of Orioles Park. Well first of all this is just a good investments a good investment for the state in terms of revenues a good investment in terms of jobs. And unfortunately a lot of misinformation out there right now. For example you hear people talking as if this were either schools or stadiums. That's just nonsense. I mean if there were really a pot of two hundred million dollars and someone said Governor you want to put this in education do you want to put this into a stadium. I would almost certainly put it in education. But there is no pot of money out there. What you do is you invest in the business. They helped create the additional revenues I mean it's just like Oriole Park right here. This is a major investment that produces jobs and it produces revenues for the state. We've made a commitment to do this I think is important in terms of being able to attract other business and jobs so we stick with

that commitment. Most importantly however when I think about the challenges that we're facing for example we're cutting back on welfare because of the federal cuts. We need some entry level jobs as well. And no matter which study you're looking they all agree that there are a large number of permanent year round jobs that come out of these two stadiums. Likewise we need revenues for education we need revenues for basic public services. And this is a good opportunity for us to help produce those revenues. Remember in 1987. This stadium right here had almost exactly that of negative opposition had almost exactly the same arguments against a legislative fiscal Services said that the projected revenues from oil park here was too high. In fact the revenues coming out of Orem park at more than doubled expectations and we now have about 50 million dollars a year extra because of the existence of this park. I think we're going to do very well the be some controversy. The

legislature will modify the agreements a little bit but that's their legitimate and constitutional role. We'll get them built. The excitement of the teams will be here the revenues will be there the jobs will be there and Maryland will move forward. And yesterday both deals were sweetened for the state with the reported agreement by Prince George's County and the Redskins to jointly pick up about a third of the cost of site improvements in Landover. And the decision by Art Modell to forfeit twenty four million dollars an expected stadium revenues. This proposal that was agreed to today helps very dramatically to get the votes. Did you have the vote today. I don't know because we've never tried to vote. You have to vote in the Senate. I hope. I hope so. This is you can pick up a few pence a day today. While the sands do continue to shift a little bit on this issue the Redskins deal for one seems a little less certain today than it did this time yesterday. First let's turn to the pro stadium paddle and Bruce Hoffman who's the executive director of the

Maryland stadium authority. Just quickly Bruce for an update so we're all on the same page tonight of where these last minute negotiations stand with with the Baltimore team and the Washington team would be welcome news that the modeller organization is going to put 24 million dollars in toward the construction of the stadium and that the stadium authority is going to put 24 million dollars into a dedicated fund for school construction we're very optimistic that this this project will now get approved. It's a very timely approval for us because the team is already gearing up to move to Memorial Stadium for play this year and to move into Owings Mills for their new training complex so we're most optimistic. Likewise the huge economic benefits from the Redskin project is it's hard not consider and we're very hopeful that the General Assembly will also approve the project along with the Browns or the NFL team project. Senator Christopher Van Hollen of Montgomery County a leading opponent of the stadiums do

the developments of the past couple days change your opposition at all. Well no they don't. The art mo Dell's contribution of twenty four million dollars is really just a drop in the bucket it's like trying to spray perfume on us on a skunk. It may make it smell a little better but it's still a rotten deal. Underneath we're still talking about a huge commitment in taxpayers dollars and I received a report from fiscal services today which is an independent agency that says when you look at what the modeller payments actually bring in as of today in cash it's only 13 million dollars. And that even if you factor that in the the stadium is still a money loser in the state of Maryland. So this is still a bad investment for the taxpayers and the fundamental question here really is how do we want to spend limited resources it's a question of priorities and spending this money on stadiums is just the wrong priorities in the state of Maryland when we have schools with leaky roofs that are bursting without the seat with the seams with overcrowding. When we have textbooks where the geography of the Soviet Union on the

map let's invest these limited state tax dollars and higher priorities in the state around that's really what this debate is all about whether you get another drop in the bucket or not. Are Sen. Barbara Hoffman a Baltimore area legislator and the chair of the Senate Budget Committee. Supporter of the stadium. You're in the midst of the budget process you're making cuts every day you're seeing unmet needs around the state how do you justify the expenditure of this kind of money. Well I think because you have to understand that the state's budget is comprehensive it's everything from police to museums and anything in between and we put a great stress on education. And economic development. And on the issues of education last year we authorized for this current fiscal year one hundred eighteen million dollars in school construction more than we had ever done up to that time in the new budget for fiscal 97. We have probably authorized one hundred thirty three million the governor asked for. That is an unusual amount of money. And over the past I mean we're going to do more in the next 10 years than we

did in the last 10 years and we've escalated beyond what anybody had ever expected to have happen. It's not a question of schools or stadiums. You can do both and we are doing both. And I think that you cannot overlook the fact that. When 11 years ago we woke up in the Baltimore region to find the Mayflower van gone with our Colts team you notice nobody in Indianapolis was crying for us and nobody at the NFL cared but we cared. There was an economic benefit to having the Colts and there was an emotional and intangible benefit to having the Colts. And this is been a goal of the state for the past 11 years and now that we have in the law the ability to do it and that we have a proper team now we have a team is really important that we can carry through with their commitment and it will be a benefit to the state. In fact the arrangement that Mr. Modell

did with the stadium authority gives us actually an extra two point four million dollars a year for 10 years. In schools that we might not have had at all. There is no guarantee that if that money was not spent the way we're planning to spend it that any of it would go to schools. Are you playing center on the the anti stadium team tonight is John O'Neill of the Maryland Taxpayers Association. John the administration says that these aren't general fun tax dollars and in any case so what's to be upset about. Well. There's only one source of money in the state and that's from taxpayers whether it comes through the lottery would come through gets tax license fees or whatever. It's all taxpayers money to say it is income and general fund is because it has been diverted from the general fund into the lotteries because of the law that was written in 1970. The lottery procedure the general fund have grown only one and a half percent a year the last 10 years which is miniscule compared to the 5 percent group it had prior to 87.

And on top of that it isn't even producing enough to satisfy the thirty two million that's needed the next three years to fund a stadium. So their plan was numbers in trying to develop this into a good thing. And I say this to the audience if it's such a good thing let's put it up to the citizens in November to vote on it and let them decide whether it's a good investment or not. All right said Jim Brady secretary business and economic development for the Glen Denning administration is also with us on the pro stadium side. Mr. Brady there's been so much give and take on these deals. Your administration has had to go back to Art Modell and say that we need to have to restructure the deal and the Chamber of Commerce raised the concern that that hurts your ability and in trying to attract new new jobs and new businesses to the state. It's it has the smell of a bait and switch to go at it and a appliance dealer.

How do you answer that when the Colts abandon Maryland in 1084 it was widely viewed as an economic development loss for the state when the plan was put in place in 1907 to build a stadium when the funding was put in place. It was viewed as an economic development plus to bring in an NFL team here every year thereafter. The General Assembly and the people of the state of Maryland ratified that decision and said That is the way to go and that is what this governor was asked to do when he came into office a year ago. Governor Glendening said look. This is not going to go on forever. We have one year to get a team. And either we're going to get one in that year or we pull this funding and get on with life. Well the CEO of the state of Maryland went out and got a team. He got a team basically using the same deal that was put in place a number of years ago to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. At this point would make us look incredibly

silly in the marketplace. It makes no sense whatsoever. We cut a deal with CEO cut a deal. We've whined about not having a team for 11 years. Let's not whine now that we have won. Let's get on with it this is an economic development plus for the state. It's going to be very helpful to me as one of the arrows in the economic development quiver to try and convince people that this is a state where the quality of life is very high with the amenities are there to make this state a state that you want to be in. So yes it would be a real disappointment to me at the at a minimum to have this victory smeared at this point in time now that was so close to achieving what we've been trying to do for 11 years. Right. Dele Robert Flanagan also on the anti stadium squad the saving. Now you're fighting and you've been in the legislature for a while. The. Talking specifically about the Baltimore case the stadium financing has been on the books for

nearly a decade. Every year there's been an effort to take it off and it's been rebuffed at this late date. Now that there is a team and a contract and a is it is it really fair pool to try to pull the plug on him. Jeff I think that's a legitimate question. Let's review the history on this. First of all yesterday Dell's representative was came before the legislature and they admitted that they were fully informed as to the legislative role that it is only the legislature that can appropriate funds for a deal. And as the attorney general has said if the legislature declines to appropriate the funds then the deal is off. And Art Modell in the stadium authority neither one would have any claim against the other. I rew I was reviewing the history of this legislation which goes back to 1987 the south after noon. And it's interesting to note that when the original

estimates came in for the cost to build a football stadium that they were in the neighborhood of seventy five million dollars and that when the stadium authority in its annual report came back in 1988 to the legislature they were estimating the cost of construction of eighty five million dollars. Now all of a sudden they assume that the legislature is going to be willing to appropriate two hundred two hundred million dollars for a stadium. I think you you mentioned the term bait and switch. I think we've got I think we've got a real bait and switch and it's a bait and switch on the taxpayers of the state of Maryland. This is not a good deal and no one should assume that the legislature the legislatures are going or are going to vote on this they're going to have to balance a number of issues and make and independent decision and that's what their proper role is. OK so our audience knows what we're doing for about the next 20 minutes. Now that you've met the three panelists on each side we're going to we're going to talk or debate panel the panel

at that point will start taking questions from the audience. And even though these two stadium deals have become linked in the legislature in the press largely because of timing for purposes of discussion let's split them up from here out and talk first about the Baltimore deal. Bruce we've heard enough numbers to get me confused and we're only a few minutes into the program here. Let's start with the 24 million dollar contribution from Art Modell. It's not. It's it is twenty four million dollars but it's in the same sense that your million dollar lotto jackpot is a million dollars it's it's over a long period of time. Your legislative analysts say the net present value of that is is 13 million. And the other question if you could talk about the numbers there the other question I have is if there was a sentence in the Washington Post today that indicated or hinted that the quid pro quo for that would be that Mr. Modell would be allowed to sell the name of the stadium or somehow commercialize the stadium and keep those benefits is that

the case. First of all only try to put this all in a in a major perspective here. The legislation was created 1087 really gave us several ways to fund this project one it said we could sell bonds and we could be in debt up to two hundred thirty five million include all the debt for baseball and all the debt for football. We are within that debt limit. Number two it said we could sell instance sports lotteries. How is that. What's the outstanding debt on the baseball state. We can sell 91 million dollars worth of baseball and be within it to 35 million. So you want to do football by any one of the new football bonds and that would put us and those bonds we paid back over 30 years at a price point six point two million dollar payment per year. And those bonds will be paid off from admissions taxes sales tax an income tax that come from the project. So that's where the bonds come from that's where that money comes from. And that's how it's paid back. OK now the price tag on this thing is widely reported as 200 million working right the other hundred ten and next thing it said we could have one the next

thing is a stain with stories coming into this year with about 40 million dollars in cash. And that's basically money that we've generated on site running the warehouse running the parking lots. Revenues from the Orioles. We have Christmas parties graduations weddings whatever at that site. And we have generate about 25 million dollars in round numbers. We refinanced the baseball stadium in 1902 and we generated 15 1/2 million dollars from that so the 91 now has a 40 million dollar cash component. We have looked at our operating pro forma as an expected generate about 12 to 14 million dollars in additional revenues that the Stadium Authority site during the time that we're building this project. So what we're really short is 50 million dollars and that's really what this whole debate is about is 50 million dollars. Where will it come from. We've asked the legislature for thirty two million in the lottery for three years and all the law the law said we can have two to four sports lotteries and each lottery was approximately million dollars when this law was written. So the 32 million is

within our statute essentially And anybody that was around in the early days when this was put together knows that 32 million was contemplated. We need it for three years and in those three years the 32 million after we pay a debt service on the baseball stadium they'll be about 18 or 19 million a year that we can use for football. That's where the last 50 million comes from. Now I forgot one of the thing the team has also agreed to contribute five million from from seed licenses. So what you've got is bonds cash that we've generated cash that we will generate 5 million from the team and 50 million in a lottery over the next three fiscal years that's how it's paid for. The fact that Mr. Odell is putting 24 million in whether the net present value is 11 million two million or 19 million. At the end of it at the end of his lease he will have given us cash equivalent to twenty four million dollars which the deal we struck never asked them to do. It was not the deal that we offered in 93. It was not the deal we offered in 94. So I'm just telling you that is a positive thing and it has allowed the stadium authority to

put that twenty four million dollars into school construction. OK I've got to confess I'm I'm a little confused about the numbers but I do want to clear up the other point about to commercialisation of that stadium and then we can we can certainly go back and forth. Feel free to jump in on either side here is that the cases are going to be wiser. It will not be Budweiser ball or something like that but we the team has all promotional rights within the building and we have considered giving the team some portion or all of naming rights subject to an acceptable name. And just as a point of reference football stadiums with 10 major events a year plus another 10 and additional events here do not generate the large numbers that you've been reading about from arenas or from baseball stadiums that have many more events. So it could be the name of a product though it could be that's right. OK. Folks have a come at me to clarify some of these numbers and I was I was pleased to hear the governor say on the video that if there were a pot of money of 185 or 200 million dollars he would be investing it in school construction because I think we need to get down to the nub of this issue on the

pot of money. I don't know what they mean by a pot of money but I do know this. There is at least a hundred million dollars in cash coming into the stadium authority. Through lottery revenues cash on hand or cash that they're going to get from various refinancing or whatever. That money belongs to the people of Maryland with the consent of the legislature and the governor. All that hundred million dollars can be spent on schools on public safety on anything else. And I don't think anybody can give you an argument on that. The bonds there are eighty six million dollars conservatively in bond issue. Now the state of Maryland in slike a family in one respect we've set up a debt limit. We've said we're not going to put more than a certain amount of money on our credit card or by selling eighty six million dollars in bonds for the stadium. We have hit our ceiling we've maxed out on our credit card which means that we cannot sell an additional 86 million dollars in bonds general general general obligation bonds for school construction or will exceed that.

So I don't know if I care if you call it a pot of money a bag of money or whatever all I know is this 100 million can go to the operating fund of this state and it belongs to the people of Maryland I can go there with the consent of the governor and the legislature and eighty six million dollars can go to school construction. We are spending more on school construction this year than ever before because enrollment in the state of Maryland is going through the roof. Even at one hundred thirty three million dollars this year we're still well short of the two hundred seventy three million dollars that the counties requested. They can all the school systems requested. We have an event here in the Capitol called the Bega phone. It's when all the schools from around the state come and beg for more school construction with their handouts. And I don't understand why when they have got their hands out for more school construction money we're giving handouts to Art Modell and other NFL owners and that is the nub of the issue. Why John if that's OK. I think that the Senator Van Hollen who serves on the Budget Committee that I chair knows better than some of the things he's saying.

There is no way that the state would get to spend more than one hundred thirty three million dollars in one year on school construction. Even if the stadium issue had never arisen. There is a balance and a an an issue of how much do you spend on each thing. We have great holes in some of our other areas that we that we know need help too. A school construction budget of one hundred thirty three million dollars by the state is matched by a one hundred thirty three million dollars from the counties to build those schools. Even if we put more money in it is unlikely that many of those counties who have asked for more money would be able to even make the match to have those schools built. It is a misstatement and a misrepresentation to think that we could ever do more. In addition to that the bonds I need to remind you that the bonds for the stadium are revenue bonds. There is no way to guess and I can tell you this we wouldn't do more than one hundred thirty three million. That money would not be used for

schools. It wouldn't be it would be used for. I mean basically these are revenue bonds they were just kind of disappear. They wouldn't translite. And you can strip the stadium authority of all their cash because the stadium authority is now. In charge of building the Baltimore Convention Center. They're building the Ocean City Convention Center. They have the warehouse to rent. And. The same county that objects to using the stadium authority for the stadiums wants the stadium authority to build them a conference center in Montgomery County. So you can't strip that authority of their resources and still expect them to carry out the job that we've given them to do. Jeff I just if I could just jump in most of those delegates want to see you as a fiscal conservative if I can respond to that because I think I think that Senator Hoffman's comment is a good jumping off point. Because. We ought to be debating how much money to put into school construction. We ought to be debating whether or not to have a tax cut and we ought to be debating whether or not the

governor should have discontinued the construct of prison construction given our overcrowded prisons. All of these are debates that we could be having over how to use this one hundred eighty seven million dollars in the next two to three years when it would become available. We are not having that debate. Instead we are trying to stop the governor and I wish she was here today because I heard what he said and I would like to ask him governor that doesn't make sense to me. But unfortunately he declined your invitation. We all have to be Hoover's Representatives I understand that. But the governor is the one that's calling the shots this is the governor's baby and we would wish that we could be debating the governor. In any event we are we are not debating the serious issues in fact at one point the majority leader came to me in in a few weeks ago and said Bob we just were in a leadership meeting and we spent three hours

debating the stadium and discussing the stadium. He said we should have been discussing issues like you and I would discuss like how do we take care of crack addicted babies and how do we take care of the various other needs of the people the state of Maryland. This this issue is the issue that ate the nineteen ninety six legislative session. This is not right we ought to be talking about spending more money on school construction we ought to be spent talking about giving a tax cut because the governor's own commission said that this state needs a tax cut to be more. It competitive with the state of Virginia which incidentally doesn't have a stadium or a football team but I'm going to quickly quickly ask you this it seems to me that this this debate is not that dissimilar to the debate we have in Annapolis every year or certainly most years about who gets what. It's a parochial or regional issue. And Baltimore City is getting a good chunk of money it's going to be a major construction project in Baltimore City you mention the convention center that's another one in Baltimore City. And someone recently

described it as a bizarre atmosphere where the outlying counties are basically trying to get theirs before they go along with the deal is that analysis wrong is it. Is that what's going on here. Well I think that that's. Unfortunate because there are many of us that have voted for programs for and development projects for Baltimore City. Let's talk about the convention center for example. I come from Howard County that's not necessarily an area that would be impacted by the Convention Center. But I voted for it because I thought it was good economic development for the Baltimore region. This is not good economic. This is this is chest this is chest thumping. This is this is something that. It goes back to the 1980s in the 70s. This might been good when we had a 400 million dollar surplus in the state of Maryland but we are in the 1990s and we have to make hard choices about important things for us and for the people.

Let me let me finish up on the Baltimore City I'm on the economic development thread with secretary Brady and we need to talk about the Redskins a bit but we've heard all sorts of different numbers for the spin off. A fact. What what do you think. But I'm sorry to disappoint delegate Flanagan by not being the governor but despite the fact that I'm not. Let me talk about the issue that I think has been unspoken so far in this whole debate and that is the issue of economic development because let's let one thing be absolutely clear what we need in this state is an economic development strategy an effort that truly can create jobs for the people in this state. That's where there is significant need. And I would tell you that this is a piece in that puzzle. I reject the notion that this is not a good economic development. A project or two projects that are that are strong these are very positive when you look around this country and you look at cities like Cleveland and others that have lost teams they have not gone through a great you and cry because they've lost a couple of hotel nights

and people haven't bought steak dinners after the game. They are disappointed because this has diminished them from a prestige standpoint it has made them less of a first class place than they were when they had those teams. And that is the macro economic development issue here that I think we too often forget when we get caught up in the bean counting of how many people are going to stay after the game. That is not what drives this issue. This is much broader than that in America in 1996 professional sports despite what delegate Flanagan says is very big. It defines cities and states that are big time first class. We might argue whether that is the right definition but in fact it is the from use you know the views and we can gain tremendous benefit from it and that is what these statins and I center van Holland have been trying to jump in John O'Neill as well.

You can go right ahead but just we need to bring in the Redskins topic as well as economic benefit that spoken of the best 200 million dollars and again only 500 jobs. If I were an industrial development and I have been in those three and manage a plant I could create a 200 million dollar interest free loan for 30 years which is what Mr. modeller is getting and he's going to have a 30 million dollar profit out of this. And our. Representatives in government are afraid to press him for more. It is not a good deal and to have eight Sundays a year of football saying it's a great economic engine when you feel good about it is like outcome based education you don't learn anything but you feel good when it's all over and it is very hot who feels badly about this when it when you get to a constituent calls are they are folks are folks upset about the Redskins still the Baltimore deal the whole thing what were the four Hey Joe. When the Colts left in 1083 sure everybody was hurt because they did in a snowstorm and something but did it cause a disaster in Boulder City. Why aren't other cities

with four of these for major league sports. Boston Chicago Detroit. Why are they gleaming Stark. It doesn't help them at all. What CEO ever comes into a state and says hey you got a football team they want to know what are your taxes what are your let me ask you the flip side of that how did you think that would be the tremendous success that everybody would agree the Orioles stadium has been helps Baltimore or the state of Maryland in any measure No I haven't seen any tax cuts if it has raised all this money as a sales tax gone down as Boehner said he lowered their real estate taxes. It's not a good deal. They haven't shown any numbers yet to me that said it's a good deal because you're putting 200 million dollars into it and they never count the capital cost of a deal. They're counting eighty one million dollars of a bond issue or whatever that is it's not a good deal for the sins of Merrill and one further point a mistake was made. The citizens have never ratified this agreement. In one thousand eighty seven we had a petition to throw the whole damn excuse me the whole darn thing out.

And and the Court of Appeals gave a lousy decision is that it was unconstitutional for us to petition. So the sooner you know it strikes me though that the Redskins deal is the one that's in more danger of actually going down at this point. Well let me Jeff you asked me what the which which one my constituents why my constituents were so upset they're up they're upset about both these deals and they're upset about them because of the skewed priorities they're most upset actually about the brown the modell deal because it's clearly a lot more 200 million dollars that the states mean it's putting into the deal and getting back to the question of priorities I'd just like to respond briefly to set her off and I have great respect for all the panelists on the other side. And I don't think we should speak suggesting there are any misrepresentations when they're when they're not. What I said was very clear that with the consent of the legislature and the governor we could be spending all this additional money on school construction. And that's very true. We could also be sending it the money on prison construction and we could be spending the operating room funds on other non-school related issues. And that's that's where the debate should lie. Now on the

economic development question the benefits of it I would just like to point out that in the administration when this when the state of the State Address this year when the governor submitted its plan. They talked about the sunny day fund that's a fund in the state of Maryland that's used for economic development it's used to attract jobs here and to keep jobs here in the state of Maryland. And according to the administration's own report first state investment of thirty two point five million dollars. We created it work or kept more than 50 200 jobs in the state of Maryland and at that same time we're saying that spending 200 million dollars on a stadium to create and I'm using their numbers now which are inflated to create thirteen hundred jobs is a good deal. I don't see how that washes. Ari let me remind our viewers that Mr. Brady you can respond to that just a second that you're watching the great stadium debate live on NPT. We'll be here until about 8:30 will be taking questions from our audience. With us live in Annapolis in a moment. Among our panelists in favor of the stadium secretary of business and economic development James

Brady. Yes it did. Sarah Van Hollen talks about numbers. The numbers do work here they really do. To compare. This with with the normal industrial jobs is just not a fair comparison at all this is much bigger than that. This is not just bringing 13:00 jobs to Baltimore in the case of the Baltimore stadium. It is has to be looked at in a dimension that's much larger than that. And unless we recognize that fact unless we can sit here and say that Oriole Park at Camden Yards has had a huge Lee positive impact on this state. If we cannot see that we will win the debate right now. But I find it impossible to argue compellingly that that stadium hasn't given this city and that city and this state and extraordinary benefit that you cannot put an easy dollar sign around that is what this is all about it is not just

simply how many peanut vendors we have it can be yours that's not what this is about. Part of what I got to find we've got to move on to the audience and you'll have a chance to respond in that segment. We got to find out what the audience thinks though and so identify yourself and your question is Alan Patterson I'm from Howard County. This question is from. Secretary Brady immediately Camden Yards is a great place to see a baseball game. But I was wondering the financial benefits that you've touted. Could you name one company that's come to Maryland because of Camden Yards. There. There is no one company because there is no silver bullet in our entire economic package that is the one reason why any company comes anywhere there is a there is a whole reputation that a state develops the whole quality of life reputation that becomes the issue in attracting companies. There is never one thing is always a series of a street fair you bet that would there be a more effective way to use our resources than we just manage yourself when we

say we're going to do one and not all of the things we are doing all of those things we are trying to address every one of those issues in the budget as Senator Hofmann said. And that is what our responsibility is hardly like telling a finding and respond to that and I will take the next question and just respond to that. But two two quick points. First of all during the last five years. Job growth in the state of Maryland has been basically close to zero. On the other hand our neighbor to the south region yet has grown at approximately 5 percent a year in its job growth. Now they don't have a football team and they don't have a baseball team. But I think jobs are far more important and the prestige that Jim talks about. Yes I love the Orioles but I don't think you can eat prestige and you can't pay bills with prestige. So I think that is is the bottom line and the important thing to remember and I would I would add that they do have the Redskins

offices and training site. I think our next question will answer it. Good evening. My name is Michael Cinco. I'm from or an old here in Randall County. And my question is if the stadium proposal is to feed it or if Mr. Modelo is asked to provide further concessions does the state risk Mr. Modell and or the NFL bringing suit against the state for reneging on the original lease agreement. I'd like to answer that question because that was I think a threshold question that those of us who oppose the state of the stadium had to figure out and we were to figure that out. We we sent a letter to the attorney general and asked him a series of questions and then his answer to us. He made it very clear that if the legislature declines to appropriate the funds for the stadium that there would absolutely be no liability no basis for a lawsuit against the state

of Maryland. Anybody who enters into a contract with the state of Maryland. There's one of two scenarios one if the money is already appropriated then there may be liability in this case. The way this was set up there was no money appropriated. And we are facing that issue during the 19 or 96 legislative session. And that's the decision we have to make when the budget bill comes up would we get sued. There's a this is an interesting interesting question because the only thing the legislature needs to appropriate is thirty two million lottery this year which 14 million is for a baseball stadium. The cash on hand is available right now doesn't require appropriation. The agreement required that 10 days after signature that we went to the Board of Public Works and got approval of our comprehensive financing plan. The governor had asked us not to do that until we spent time briefing the the group the budget committees at the General Assembly. My fear would be that we are really in a

default of that agreement already by not going to the Board of Public Works and number two that we do have cash to get started and we in the agreement said they will make our best efforts to continue to get the money I think the team could make us spend all of our cash. Perhaps sell our bonds. And the only thing that would be in default on is that thirty two million lottery this year I think we could be in court for years and be a national embarrassment to Maryland to the NFL. And I think we would do ourselves a lot of damage. Well one thing I want to say is that I've been in Maryland for seven years and for seven years I've gone to appropriations which is delegate planning and to budget and tax which is. Sort of an a hole in the center. Almost every single year that I've gone we've had a plan to finance a football stadium buying sale lottery money that's been in these programs. It was only last year that the general said We told us we had until May want to 1906 to make the deal that take our funding. We made the deal.

And. We can't seem to get it to work. And it just it's really a difficult situation. All right let's keep moving we only have about 15 minutes for questions. Ma'am your name and your question. My name is Jean Minnie and I live in and around the county in Laurel Maryland. And this is my question. I've heard several of you mention the Colts leaving Baltimore so obviously everybody remembers it. And I think probably everybody up here in the audience is aware that this phenomenon of NFL star teams deciding they're going to up and leave is just not that uncommon. And this concept of feeling good is all well and good except for one thing these teams don't seem to have any loyalty to the cities that they are in. You can now we're what a question. The question is this. How are you going to guarantee that in five or ten years either or both of these people that are coming in developers will not leave and if you mention the contract I'd have I don't hesitate to point out that Mr modeller has broken a lease to come here. And the Seahawks in the Seattle as well.

Mr. Modell had a lease and it's not unlike the lease you have if you rent an apartment for one year eight months you got transferred to Detroit. What what that lease said was we can't make you stay in the apartment but we can make you pay the rent for those last four months. That's the least Mr. most knowing erect. That is going to pay rent. He's agreed to pay the rent to Cleveland for those a lot of I thought in terms of our stadium there's no no in our state and we have a completely different deal it's a legal document where he has forfeited his rights through a through an agreement of specific performance where the courts can enforce him stay saying in the stadium and he's forfeited his rights in court to even fight it. He has no vehicle to to not stay and he's agreed to play all of his games for 30 years in the new stadium and stay there next year. Quickly under the contract. Mr. Odell is is able to impose a seat licenses and of the seat licenses 65 million dollars is going out of the state including nine million dollars to pay damages to the city of Cleveland. The interesting thing is

Art Modell was sued and was in court. And basically he got bailed out by the stadium authority and the NFL when this city of Cleveland said. To Art Modell we can keep you here. We're in court and we're going to get an injunction to keep you here. What Art Modell said and he said it in public was I'm going to strip this team. I'm going to take the talent out of this team. And no one's going to want to watch it. And that was his response to somebody trying to enforce a lease. Now if he's going to do that to Cleveland I think the questioner was absolutely right what's he going to do to us 10 years down the road. What you have. Right a quick point here I want to I want to read a quote to you it says I'm not about to rate the city as others in my league and others have done to other cities. You'll never hear me say if I don't get this I'm moving. You can go to the press on that one. I couldn't live with myself if I did that.

That was art modelled at the Cleveland Plain Dealer on February 13th 1904. Just a few months before he entered in negotiations with the state of Maryland or at any time I think this is an opportunity for the state of Maryland to say we're not going to put up with this blackmail by NFL owners where they get in a bidding war of one city in this country against the other this is a situation where the NFL owners win and the states lose. Their players going to very organized and happen vilified and demonized for the past year or so. And I can tell you that it is totally off base. This is someone who has been wasn't just a good corporate citizen in Cleveland but was a spectacular corporate citizen. Talk to the United Way people in Cleveland and understand the leadership he played in that talk to the boards that he served on. He was misled by the political leadership in Cleveland. OK. He was he was not treated fairly. And it is unfair for us to say that he

is by definition the devil in this case. Hi let's move on to the next question. Jim Philips I'm from Hagerstown Maryland Washington County I represent the council calls carouse like this may have been partially answered I'd like to direct it to delegate Flanagan the revenue bonds in the sports lottery money was specifically earmarked in 87 to construct a football stadium in Baltimore. Also 500 million has been recently program for schools construction. The highest in two decades. Why are we having such an enormous problem about these two issues. Well I think the main issue. Is the deal that was struck here. We're given a multimillionaire who has seen his team in Cleveland go from the Michelin original investment of four million dollars to one hundred seventy five million who comes here with a sweetheart deal at absolutely no cost is raping the 60 million or 70 million out of her seat licenses and is going to take a 30 million dollar profit with him

out of it. It's part of that why do you fund that thing when it isn't a good economic to go. Well let me let me tell you how I plan to get in and send her home. But let me just. I mean because the stadium authority likes to think that this is their money it is it's not their money they're a public agency and that money is belongs to the people of the state of Maryland. If you go back to 1987. We had 400 million dollars surpluses and we had tremendous surpluses year in and year out. We were trying to figure out what to do with the money. Quite frankly now we are in much different times these are the 90s. We are having a very difficult time with our economy the federal government is pulling back. We are losing jobs we are trying to transition from an economy that depends on federal jobs to one that depends on the private sector and the jobs. So so when Mr. Brady says prestige or reputation it's not prestige or reputation. It is economic development and

jobs. And he himself says that the primary ingredient for a good economic development policy is lowering taxes and decreasing regulation. OK we're going to her not we're not we're not following to have to work the rest like it. Thank you. Sure. And I think the question really had to do with something else. And it had to do with the fact that we have had 11 years to change our mind. The desire of this state to bring an NFL team to Baltimore is long standing. It didn't change and last year I worked with Senator Van Hollen and I agreed with him. If we couldn't get to a certain level of school construction he could go ahead and get try to get the votes to do away with the stadium effort. We got the school we got more school construction money and that was with my help more school construction money than had ever been dreamed of. We're getting even more this year it's a separate issue. And the other issues are separate as well. This is a this is a binding obligation. It's a moral obligation of the state

to do this stadium just like it was a moral obligation of the state to make the people who had invested in the failed savings and loans hole because we believe that that we have created an obligation by the use of the state seal or something first gone to. I need to get another question in there let's go to our next question. Go ahead. Good evening. My name's Adam Kearns from College Park Maryland. Earlier someone said that a stadium attack team could bring a prestigious Baltimore City but isn't Cal Ripkin in the world enough prestige one city. Right and that is that you forgotten the Baltimore region. Most of the players will live in Baltimore County and pay piggyback taxes to Baltimore County. The hotel rooms in Baltimore County will be filled as well as Baltimore City probably also some many in Toronto and Howard County it is not a question of Baltimore City and I don't think it's an issue of the city against everybody else. I think it's an issue of the location that was chosen in law to put two stadiums one baseball one football. The fact that we are going to end up with two

NFL teams should have everybody cheering instead of complaining. Heartless. It's. Over. Sir your question. Yes my name is Roger Gaul I live in Bowie Maryland Prince George's County. OK. In 1995 despite a numerous sell outs the Orioles and their stadium deal that they had it was half a million dollars was lost despite the rent and so forth. It's now that they're not going to be paying any rent and ninety six and their own. How can we be assured that there is going to be any income from the two stadium projects as it's currently existing. First of all the NFL team has not got a rent free stadium. They pay rent in two forms they pay admissions tax which we're currently estimating at 2.8 million a year and they're going to pay the operation maintenance expenses of that facility which we have. We expect to be

about 3.3 million in year one. It will increase over time. So any way to cut it that's over six million dollars a year that we will collect from them. If you compare with the Orioles lease where we pay the operation maintenance and the team pays the rent. And you're correct that rent did not cover all the 0 1 am but that was not the only revenue we got from the Orioles We also got admissions tax from the Orioles and we got a repayment of sweets from the oral so the total revenues from about 11 million as opposed to six and a half million in operating expenses so that is not true that statement that you made in 3 people who want to talk or Senator Van Hollen and then the next question if I could respond because I think the basis of the question was Is this going to make money in the end for the taxpayers of the state of Maryland Is it a good deal. And I just want to point out that according to the Department of fiscal services which again is an independent agent agency of state government even if you use the numbers of the administration on job creation and economic development. You're going to caught you will loose at the

end of the 30 years if you finish paying on the bonds it will lose the state of Maryland. Forty five million dollars now let me just point out one thing one brief thing because in Mexico you'll hear sometimes that the enough to generate the economic benefit generated by the stadium is enough to pay off the bonds. And that's true but that ignores the fact that you're putting up over about 100 million dollars in principle from when you factor that in. It's a loser according to the necromancer quickly and we have time for a short response. I'm not a fan of Baltimore County. How would Marilyn appear to the outside world after 11 years of pursuing an NFL team we get this phenomenal opportunity from our governor and then we decide the legislature decides we really don't want to play in the big leagues. All right let's let's do a fast answer from John O'Neill. First I think it's a mischaracterization to say it's a wonderful opportunity from our governor and I think it's more like stealing the pocketbooks of the taxpayers to give this million.

The 30. Million dollar profit multimillionaire free deal ahead is how do you respond on the subject of reneging on the deal. Well if there ever been a contract made that can't be bettered but by the bye you've got them here is it only a minor bit of it while they're entered into an agreement with Jack Kent Cooke and he backed out of that because of citizen opposition. They also had a deal with Disney and that and Disney and Disney had to back out of that because of citizen opposition. We're down to them again and we did set aside two minutes at the end for each side to get their word in our closing statement of some sort. So you each have a minute I'm going to start with Senator Van Hollen Well thank you very much and thank you for having this the scene I want to say at the outset I have tremendous respect for my colleagues on the other side of this debate. But we have a fundamental disagreement about these deals and it's a question of priorities. I don't think we should be spending hundreds of millions of dollars that belongs to the people of the state of Maryland to build football teams here at a time when we have much higher

priorities. We're talking about federal cuts coming down from the federal government. We're talking about schools bursting at the seams. We're talking about the fact that we do not have the funds to build prisons. We're talking about cuts across state government. It seems to me that we have to get our priorities straight. We were flush with cash as a state in the 1900s. We don't have that benefit anymore. We need to be spending this money on other things. This latest effort to suggest that we're going to have a some other little bit of contribution from Art Modell still does not make this a money winner for the state of Maryland. I just want to say this issue the jury's out on this question. The deal has been not been cut. This is not a done deal in Annapolis and I would courage all those citizens out there who think that we're this is a misplaced priority to contact the legislators are let them know. Secretary Brady I believe we do the citizens of the state a great disservice when we make this a question of whether we choose our children or whether we

choose football this is not what this is about at all. We have a deep commitment to our children and to many other priorities in this city. And I believe we are meeting those in a very responsible way. For 11 years we've wanted a football team and by God we now have one. In fact we have two. And let's really enjoy it. This is a state that needs to make some bold moves. This is a state that struggled with Bay Bridges struggled with Harbor Place struggled with Oriole Park at Camden Yards and I can tell you my prediction will be it will not be too many years when all of my friends on the other side will be coming to football games in Baltimore and enjoying all of the grandeur that goes with having professional sports in this state. I'd like to think I. Like to thank our panelists on both sides of the issue members of our audience for some pointed questions as seeming like to remind our viewers that in Petey's legislative coverage continues with our weekly state

circle program see tomorrow night at 7:30. Now for all of us at NPT I'm Jeff Saucony. Thanks for joining us tonight.