Eyes on the Prize II; Interview with Coretta Scott King

Okay, Mrs. King, can you tell me again about February 65 when you met Malcolm X and Selma? Yes, I was in Selma to visit my husband who was in jail in connection with the Voting Rights Campaign in Selma because he had been in jail for a day or so and because the campaign had been in progress. I was a little bit weary because naturally I was so involved in it even though I was not there all the time. So when I walked into the church where the mass meetings were held at noon time, Andy Young said to me, Karate, you're going to have to speak today because Malcolm X is here. He's just spoken and he has aroused the people and you need to speak because you need to

set a nonviolent tone and I said to Andy, well, I really don't feel like speaking I'm not in the mood to speak today. He said, oh, but you got to speak. You need to. You'll be able to do it. You'll feel like it and you're going to have to speak. And finally, of course, I gave in and I did speak. As I walked out on the platform and sat down next to him in the pulpit, I guess it was. Well, you know, I felt a little nervous because I had met him before and I really didn't know what he was going to be like. But you know, after I had spoken, he leaned over and said to me, Mrs. King, I want you to tell your husband that I had planned to visit him in jail here in Selma. But I won't be able to do it now.

I have to go back to New York because I have to attend a conference in Europe, an African student conference. And I want you to say to him that I didn't come to Selma to make his job more difficult. But I thought that if the white people understood what the alternative was, that they would be more inclined to listen to your husband. And so that's why I came. And of course, I thanked him. And I was naturally somewhat surprised because I didn't expect him to say that. I don't know what I expected. But I had such a gentle manner and he seemed very sincere. And I kept thinking about what he had said and the way he had said it. And of course, within about a couple of weeks or more, he was assassinated. And it affected me very deeply because I had met him now.

And I felt that it was such a tragic loss because he had come around to understand better I think non-violence and my husband's position. And would have been a force for reconciliation and healing because there was a great need, I think, between blacks and blacks for that kind of thing. And I felt also that if he had lived, particularly in the latter part of the 60s, that he probably could have been a tremendous bridge in bringing black Muslims and the black people from the civil rights movement together. And for days, I had this pain almost like this feeling in my chest of feeling of depression.

And just feeling as if I had lost someone very dear to me and I couldn't quite understand. But then I began to realize, I guess, what an impact he had made on me in that very short period of time and knowing him. I think that Martin and Malcolm agreed in terms of the ultimate goal of the freedom struggle.

I don't think there was any difference there. I think it was basically a one of strategy. My husband believed to accomplish the goal of freedom and justice and equality. That it was necessary to use non-violent means, particularly in a society such as ours, where we were 10% of the population. And he believed, finally, that non-violence was the only alternative that oppressed people had in this kind of society. I think Malcolm felt that people had a right to use any means necessary, even violence, to achieve the goals of their freedom. And I think that was the basic difference. Martin, I don't think ever spoke publicly against Malcolm in any form.

I think Malcolm did against Martin, unfortunately. But that was because Martin was committed to non-violence and non-violence seeks not to humiliate or to depersonalize human beings, but to ennobled human beings, human personality. But he never held that against him. I think they respected each other. Martin had greatest respect for Malcolm. He agreed with him in terms of the feeling of racial pride and the fact that black people should believe in themselves and see themselves as lovable and beautiful. The fact that Martin had a strong feeling of connectedness to Africa and so did Malcolm.

I think if he had lived and if the two had lived, I am sure that at some point they would have come closer together and would have been a very strong force in the total struggle for liberation and self-determination of black people in our society. Now, you've spoken about your feelings at Malcolm X's death. Can you recall any specific comments or observations or feelings that your husband had at Malcolm's assassination? Well, I'm sure Martin had similar feelings that I had. I think when I first got the news, I was near him. Usually, that's when you get these reactions.

Martin afford violence of any kind, and particularly assassinations of the leadership of Malcolm of course, in 1965, and Metka-Evers in 1963, and in many ways it was, you know, it's like who was next, and I think in 1965 while we were in Selma, that was the time when Martin received numerous threats, and I really feel that he had felt that something was going to happen to him in Selma, that he might be killed in Selma. As a matter of fact, when we were in Oslo, Norway in December of 1964, he talked about the fact that when we went into Selma, which we planned to do the first of January in 1965

and did, to begin the voting rights campaign, that somebody was going to get killed. And as we always did in the movement, we would make jokes about these things. I mean, this is the way you kind of begin to accept the fact of the reality, and he would say to people on the trip, well, you better have a good time and enjoy yourself because when we go to Selma, somebody's got to get killed, and they had already sent people out to talk to the white community, and they came back with, you know, the reports were not very good, so there was that strong feeling, and then as we were moving in Selma, there was so many, many threats, rumors of plots of his assassination that took place, and having had Malcolm's assassination to come while he was in Selma, I'm sure it reminded him more of the possibility of his own fate, you know, that ultimate fate.

Mark, Mark, maybe circle, we're back on January 26, 1966, 1550 Southhandland Avenue, can you describe for us your new home as you walk into the building for the first time? Well, first of all, as I walked up to the third floor and entered the building, the first thing I noticed was a very strong smell of urine, and, you know, the smell was all over it, permeated the whole apartment it seemed. When I got inside, and the living room was close to the first thing I saw, it has a

large dirty couch in the living room, and the walls were very dirty, it was not the kind of place that you would want to live in, we had to get it fixed up, I think it had to be repaired and all, but we had to look at it first to see whether this was what we wanted, and of course, we wanted something that was very typical of the way people had to live, and we found it. In other words, the place was generally broken down, nothing worked, toilets, refrigerator, so everything had to be repaired. But this was the kind of living that I'm sure most people in the area encountered daily. I knew of course I didn't have to live there permanently, so I could live there for that

period of time and be very comfortable and satisfied because it was for purpose, it was for the cause, the sake of the cause, of course, the place was fixed up a bit by the landlord when he found out that Martin Luther King, Jr. was going to be renting it, and even painting it up and getting some different furniture still didn't improve it but so much. But one of the things that I realized living there, you begin to feel a sense of close identification with the people in the neighborhood. They were so happy to have us there, they extended such a warm welcome. We lived in a neighborhood where there were gangs and one of the gangs, I think it was the Blackstone Rangers, lived in that neighborhood and of course they came and offered their protection.

They said you don't need Dr. King, you don't need any police, we can take care of you. And we are going to take care of you, so don't you worry about a thing. They came to visit us from time to time and of course I remember one night one of them came upstairs and knocked on the door and we opened it and he said he wanted to come in and we said to come in Dr. King said come in and have a seat and just happened to have been at a time when Martin had sent out for some barbecue and so he sat there and he said are you Martin Luther King Jr., Reverend Martin Luther King Jr., are you Reverend Martin Luther King Jr., and Martin said yes I am, are you really?

You don't mean, this cat's been up there in Washington, Eden with Presidents, Eden Fillet me on stake and here he's sitting down here, Eden BBQ just like me and of course we really knew the end that we had it made because he saw Martin as another human being that ate the same kind of food, lived in the same kind of home, house, apartment and so on. But it was a great feeling knowing that these people really cared and that they would be there for whatever we needed and we didn't want them to use any weapons or to be violent but we knew that they were not going to do anything to harm us but they would do everything they could to protect us.

Now when did your children come up and join you and how did you feel about raising children and anything good like this? Well it was the summer, I think in July when we brought the kids up and they came for a few weeks and we thought it was important that they have this experience but since Martin was away so much it was also a matter of just bending time together because he'd have to come back and forth to Atlanta. So having the family there for that period and having the children experience this kind of living was very important and I remember I guess one of the hardest parts of the whole experience was when I would bathe the kids in the morning and get them dressed and they'd go out in the backyard to play and the dirt was very dark. It was really black dirt, apparently it was mixed with coal or something I don't know

but the dirt would stick on their clothes and so within a short period of time they would all be dirty as they could be all over again and I kept thinking if the kids had to live this way all of their lives what effect it would have on them and yet there were other children who knew no other life but this. So the kids enjoyed playing in the dirt and they enjoyed playing with their little playmates in the neighborhood of course we had supervision and all of that but it was a tremendously valuable experience I think for them although they were very young. The other part of that experience was we just happened to be there the night when the rioting started on that side of town we were in that apartment and with the children

that was very scary for a while because the children had no sense of the danger of a riot at all and they thought it was funny to hear the guns popping and the shooting in the neighborhood they didn't realize that they could be killed and I was there in the apartment alone with the children trying to get them to calm down and to get them ready to go to bed and it was a night that I shall always remember because I stayed at most of the night in the apartment while my husband and the SCLC staff stayed out in the streets just trying to control the violence as much as they could. What did you see in your own neighborhood as you looked out the window that night?

Some window paintings and a store I think were shattered there was some shooting into a store and the children saw that and of course that was when it first started. Then later we looked out the kitchen window which was the back part of the house and we saw people looting at the grocery store. It was the strangest feeling to see people going into a store and picking up all the groceries, putting them in baskets and you knew they were stealing it out and of course we watched this for a while and all of a sudden we could hear someone saying police police they said it loud enough so we could hear and everyone sort of disappeared into the alley and well the police came but everybody was gone I don't think they caught anybody

but this was the way it usually happened and this store was so close to our apartment we could have almost thrown a rock into it from our window. We were driving through the neighborhood and all of a sudden we saw some children running away and the police were chasing them and we knew something was going on but we weren't sure what so as we continued to watch it back and forth we realized that the children had

been playing with the water hydrant and had turned the water on and the police had turned it off it's very hot day and this kind of thing going on and they had been some rock throwing and all and we saw some of that and so my husband of course always get very nervous when there was any kind of violence taking place because he knew what it could lead to more violence and somebody can end up getting hurt or killed so as we moved along we realized that the violence and the all this was taking place and it was spreading so we finally went to the church and made some phone calls and we found out that some of the people had been arrested a number of people had been arrested and had been taken to various jails

in their neighborhood so we found out where some of these were and we visited some of those jails that night it seems like we stayed in the streets most of that night it was very interesting you know with Mahalia being there because being the celebrity that she was and with Martin Luther King Jr. us being out on the street and going into these precincts where these people were detained naturally everybody was very pleased you know to see them and then that night of course we spent the night at Mahalia's but we didn't get much sleep that night because you know it was a very uneasy night with all of this violence taking place Martin of course and the SCLC staff you know would be of course around industry trying to do what they could to contain it SCLC had a very excellent staff and many of the staff had worked with some of the gang people so they were able to communicate

to some extent with them and I think they were able to do something but they were not able to control it completely once violence starts it's very difficult you know to control it but it was a very frightening kind of thing because we knew it could spread and of course they never did get the violence to suicide it went on throughout the night throughout the day and the next night it had spread on the west side where that's where we were living on the Hamlin street and of course it went on for a few days as you know but this was quite an experience I never thought that I would be in a situation up to that point where you know there was a real riot but I was right in the middle of the riot really during that Chicago experience we had planned to not take Bonnie because she was three years

old and we felt that because it was so hot as a matter of fact the hottest day of the year in July July 10 there we we get a babysitter and leave them and the apartment we took her to the rally and my husband said after we got to the rally and she started asking if she could march she said you know I want a march where are we going to march mommy where are we going to march and of course you know I was hoping that I could find a way to distract her from you know from the whole thing and finally Martin said oh let's take her and we decided to take us so all of the children and Bonnie and Martin and myself

and the whole crowd of oh I don't know thousands marched towards City Hall and as we marched towards City Hall little Bonnie got tired and Andy Young put her on his shoulders and he carried her for a large part of the distance between Andy Young and Bernard Lee they carried her all the way to City Hall and of course I could see her head bobbing up and down as we walked along on his shoulders and we got to City Hall where Martin nailed the demands on the door of City Hall which was the symbolism was very much like that Martin Lutha the Protestant Reformation when he nailed his thesis on the door of Whitburn and Bonnie did not get to see City Hall because she was fast asleep I certainly wish somehow that

I could have a film of that or a photograph of it because it was very special since it was the first time that all of us had marched together the southern Christian ladies excuse me the southern Christian leadership conference in an effort to dramatize the plight of poor people who lived in slum dwellings in Chicago actually took over some apartments and began to clean them up and to of course collect the rent and to file complaints with

the housing authority which of course were acted upon and in that process Martin and I along with Al Rabie got into work clothes and we got shovels and we began to lift up the garbage and put it into the cans because it was all around the apartment buildings on the ground and every place and clean up the place in general and this was I think was an important effort and I remember it was very cold very cold day when we did this but it was important to to make that statement I think so that it was carried you know on the news and in the newspaper those conditions were not known certainly by a lot of people

they didn't know how badly how poor how I said how bad the slum conditions were for some people who had to live on those conditions and yet pay exorbitant rents for what they were getting and this was a part of this whole fair housing trust that began in Chicago that finally ended up in getting housing legislation in 1968 and this was of course after my husband's death but I think that this effort eventually did pay off but it took a long time. Now could I just get for our editing purposes it would help if you could just give us a gift by describing how five families aimed to your house would like to ask for help.

Oh I see. We as I said we took this apartment on Hamlin Street on the west side of Chicago and one night well Martin was home in the apartment. Five different families came to him and to ask for his help and they talked about you know the in human conditions under which they were living. The lack of proper sanitation, the lack of extermination of from rats and that kind of thing and they were very concerned that they had to continue to live this way and of course after Dr. King heard their pleas and he wanted to try

to help in some way and in as much as he had come to Chicago for the purpose of addressing this problem he decided then after meeting with his staff people that you know one thing that could could take place would be to you know just go in and in a sense take over the buildings and start helping the people and running the apartments in the sense that people would no longer pay the rent to the landlords because the landlords were not doing anything to improve the conditions of the homes. Great thank you. Did your husband feel constrained about coming out so publicly against the war before 1967 and if he did how come?

Yes I think it's important to realize that Martin for a long time for many years had really wanted to take position a strong position against the war. He had disgusted in the SCLC board meetings with his colleagues and got reactions that were strongly opposed to him doing it because they felt like you know it was not connected with silver rights most people felt that silver rights and the peace issue were two separate pieces and Martin knew that injustice anywhere as a threat to justice everywhere and as he said I fought too long to gain segregation to now end up segregating my moral concern and so he was very very concerned always about the question of the injustice of war and

this particular one he felt had a tremendous effect on the lives of people in this country who were poor and disadvantaged and he felt that you know he had to make that connection for people and it was eventually affecting you know the whole climate in this country because there were series of riots that had broken out in various cities around the country in between 65 and 67 they had been quite a number and so he felt that it was there was a very direct connection I think he had come to a point where he felt as if he had you know no choice if he were going to be true to his own convictions and his own conscience

that he had to make a statement he had to take make a public stand against this very inhumane and unjust war as he said he did not get the support from his colleagues or from any of his SCLC board members that he would have liked so matter of fact I think most of them went along but they didn't agree with him and he finally decided that you know he had to take this position and on April 4th 1967 he made a far reaching statement at the Riverside Church in New York in which he he talked about Vietnam conflict and why he was taking the position and shortly very shortly there was condemnation from all quarters both black and white leaders

across this country it was a very agonizing period for him because you know most of the people that he'd work with leadership of other organizations made public statements against Martin Luther King Jr. they felt that you know he didn't know enough about foreign policy to speak about it that he needed to stick to civil rights and of course he knew he had made the right decision and he was willing I think to to suffer whatever the consequences might be even the loss of funds to his organization he knew that was going to happen and it did SCLC's contribution suddenly went way to way down and we had to take some special measures to try to solicit support from some of our peace friends I had been very much involved

in the peace movement he had encouraged me to be active since 1962 I had been the family spokesperson on the peace issues having gone to the this the summer met conference the 17 nation-desarmament conference in Geneva in 1962 it's won 50 American housewives and from that point on appeared in rallies and marches between Washington and New York through 19 up until 1967 when he took his position and I think his feeling was that if I was speaking out on the peace issue then at least there was a king person family person who is who is you know speaking to the issue and somehow he felt a little bit more comfortable with

my doing it in his not doing it but not really totally comfortable and totally relieved and he said as he said he was the happiest person in all the world when he could finally come to a point where he could publicly make a far-reaching statement against the war and condemn it and that was the time when he felt I think in his own conscience that he had done what he knew was right to do. Martin Agonized really over the decision whether he should come out sooner than he did I

mean over those several years I remember the right after the Nobel Peace Prize in 1964 December and in the early part of 65 he made a fairly strong statement and of course the press noticed it and sort of attacked him about the statement and he began to I guess kind of weigh his words but at that time he conferred with his board and because he said that it would affect very directly SCLC and the work that he was doing in terms of the support that he was getting because people who with me on civil rights will not be with

me on this issue and we have to count those costs and all I want you to do is to allow me to make the statement as an individual not on behalf of the organization and of course he had the right to do that on his own but there was no way you could the press would make that distinction or other people would make that distinction therefore he had to prepare them for what were real consequences and he I think always understood that but it was very difficult for him because he really felt very strongly from the very beginning on his whole issue of the war and the Vietnam war especially because he had studied the conflict starting back in the 40s and he was able to see the development of the United States getting more involved and how all that happened and why you know we didn't have

to get that involved and then he could see the injustice of it all and how it was affecting the country domestically and how the people who were the poorest people in this country were more directly affected by it and I remember when he continued to you know to feel that you know as a person of conscience he needed to come forth and make the statement and it was like you know I whatever the risk is you know I must take it now because it's the right thing to do and he finally of course did take the position as I said and he was attacked by many of his colleagues and I remember one day when he was home he had been traveling for a few days and he happened to be home that day and in the morning of that day he

started talking about the fact that he was very disappointed in Whitney Young's comments and with Young had made some very negative comments about his statement and he said I can understand the older leaders like Roy Wilkins and others but I don't understand Whitney he's a younger man and you know he was so seemed to be so hurt so I said to him one Martin if you feel that way why don't you pick up the telephone and call Whitney because whenever whenever you feel like that I think it's the right thing to do and you normally would do this why don't you just go ahead and do it so he said I believe I will and he picked up the phone and he called Whitney Young and they talked for at least an hour and I heard him rehearsing the history of the oh okay so let's pick up with that phone

they talk for an hour and I heard him rehearsing the history of the Vietnam conflict starting back in the 40s and going on up to the present time and I could tell that Whitney was saying well Martin you understand this you know that history I didn't know that I didn't know that and of course Martin felt very relieved after he had done it and I heard

him saying you know as he was talking for a long time I encouraged my wife to take a position against the war and but the time has come when I can no longer be silent because silence is betrayal and I was the happiest person in the world when I could come out and take a position against that evil and unjust war and of course after that conversation at least I think Martin got out of his system you know his disappointment and his hurt the fact is that nothing changed in terms of the reality of the reaction against him it was a very very agonizing experience because he knew that he was right on this issue and of

course history has borne him out on that and I think it was the timing was right it was something that took a lot of courage to do but I think that the fact that he took that position or put him in I think in to a relationship in history I believe that you know that few people are standing because there are times in your life when you when you have to make those difficult decisions which can cost you the ultimate sacrifice and I think that that position as well as his continuing efforts with the poor people's campaign combined really was the beginning of the so-called

end of his life you have to pay the ultimate sacrifice if you stand up for what you really believe in but I think there's something greater than that that you don't try to save your life because I think history was moved forward as a result of the position that he took. In the summer of 67 how was Dr. King feeling as he had taken the stand against the war cities were flaring up people were looking to him for answers well Martin had a tendency to take things upon himself take the blame for things that he didn't deserve the blame for whenever

there was violence and ever violence erupted any place in the country particularly racial violence he would always feel that he was going to be blamed and he would say well you know they're going to hold me responsible and he was meaning the press would write about it and say that Martin Luther King Jr. with his non-violence causing violence you know and I kept saying but you are not responsible you know you're not responsible Martin you're the one that's trying to make sense out of all this chaos and so you're not responsible and you can't blame yourself for this he knew he really wasn't because I think there are times when when you know you work very hard and you and somehow he was trying to find a way to arouse the conscience of the nation around the issue of

the unjust economic conditions and he felt that the violence was as a result of those expectations that were unfulfilled and he felt that you know he knew that the nation had the resources didn't have the will or the commitment so he was trying to figure out a way to generate that and I think it was somewhere in the late summer that he was in the discussion with Marion Wright Edelman and she had worked in Mississippi and had was talking about the conditions in Mississippi and had some some ideas about you know how this whole campaign to help poor people

could be addressed and it's not clear to me who suggested the idea of a Mew train starting in Mark's Mississippi but I remember he came home and he was talking about this whole idea of a Mew train starting in Mississippi using the Mew and the wagon as a symbol of poor farmers Mark's Mississippi was I guess about the poorest county in the in the United States at that time and to dramatize the plight of the poor this Mew train would start there and would go through Mississippi and pick up other people and the idea was to start and go all the way through Alabama and the Carolinas and on up to Washington and you know have a campaign which would be the poor people's campaign but there was much more to it than that but the whole idea was to

bring poor people together around the issue of of economic justice like of jobs and income and so he got excited about this idea and started developing it further so by March of 1968 he had called together leaders of the poor people of this country which included plates from Appalachia Hispanics from from what York and from Mexico and other places California and Native Americans and blacks of course and we met at Pascal's restaurant on what used to be Honest Street is now Martin Luther King dry and this was the the first restaurant in Atlanta

hotel where black and white people could come to meet and have have dinner and so on I decided that this was a very important historic occasion and I wanted to be there so I did attend this meeting and you know it was so exciting to see Native Americans Hispanics and white leaders from Appalachia and of course black sitting down talking about what they had in common and Martin invited them to join the poor people's campaign because by that time they had developed a concept to the point where you know they were ready to invite people in and I said to him like most great events in history that are historic in nature the press will miss this one too but I want to be there the fact is that this was March 10th

and April 4th Martin was no longer here you know the fact is that he worked after he got the idea of what could what could happen to arouse the conscience of the nation around this issue and just legislatively lobbying going to Washington with poor people and he said we would stay there and we'd camp out and we would continue to lobby the Congress and the various departments until something was done because you know America can address this problem and he was it was going to be a real test I think for non-violence and the press asked him Dr. King what if if you fail he said it won't be Martin with the King Jr. that fails it will be America

that fails and he believed firmly that through non-violent means he could address this issue and that the nation would respond he said oh we're going for broke and he we will go then we'll stay and he was determined to do that and I think that in that process somehow you know along the way he was detoured and of course he never was able to indeed that campaign but the the fact is that he worked so hard in between from the summer until that time so begin again with your talking about your husband searching for an answer to these problems Martin had had been searching for a creative solution to the problems that existed during the summer of 1967

you know the the the poverty that was growing the number of poor people in this country of all races he he had not been able to to find that that that that creative solution that he was looking for until he had a conversation with Marion Wright and she had been in Mississippi and started talking to him about some of the things that she had experienced there and this whole the whole question of how do you do dramatize the plight of poor people in the

country poverty at its worst I had he felt that somehow if he could come up with where they ate dramatic way of doing that that the nation would perhaps respond and also at the same time you'd get other people involved so the the the thing the thing that happened was when he came home of course he was excited really excited I mean he left home you know kind of down he'd been going through sort of a depression you know he had been depressed because there was so much violence and he knew that the nation couldn't survive this way something had to give

and and the more violence there was the more some people would blame Martin Luther King for the violence and so when he came home that evening he was really excited you know about this idea of a poor people's campaign starting in marks Mississippi with a mule train and going all the way to Washington DC picking up people along the way and he talked about it and during the fall period he worked very hard and all into the early part of the year and to the spring he went all over this country talking about it and promoting the idea and most people who knew him felt that he was working as if this was going to be his last job I mean he really was we were very concerned about him but the fact is that you know he could he could see I think a way that this could all come

together and he felt very confident that this could be a real test of how nonviolence can can work to change the lives of people economically when the press asked him Dr. King what if you fail he said it will not be Martin Luther King Jr. failed it will be that America fail he believed very firmly and reaffirmed his commitment in nonviolence as the most potent weapon available to press people and he said if if I'm the sole person on earth who clings to the belief and the practice of nonviolence I will be that person. So Mrs. King I'd like to get a sense of the pace of your husbands

people to people organizing in February and March and let's focus on March 23rd when he took Marty and Dexter with him to rule Georgia. Martin was a way so much of the time that he looked forward to occasions when he could take the children with him and Marty and Dexter were able to go with him to Georgia rule Georgia and they were so excited because it meant that they could spend you know a whole day or whatever time it was with their father and you know they were just genuinely excited and Martin too was excited because you know he was very concerned about

his father role and spending time with the children and he saw this as a time he could spend with his sons and he knew how much it meant to them but he also it meant a great deal to him and Dexter of course being younger I'm sure he got tired quicker than Marty so he was talking about how you know how how daddy worked so hard and how he you know went so long and how he seemed never to get tired and that was the way it was it seemed that he of course he got tired but I think he was inspired with the whole idea but it was hard work to do what he did I mean it is very tiring you know to travel you know you it was like a almost like a political campaign 365 days of the year I would say

to to Martin you know the movement is like a political campaign but you never take a break it never ends it continues year after year and that's the poor people's campaign was one of those frantic periods where it seems that you know Martin was just continually going and he had so much anxiety about all of this working out and making it happen successfully but I think one of the more wonderful moments in the family was when when the children could be with him for that length of time so can you tell us how your husband felt when the march and Memphis of March 28 ended in violence he was very depressed over the situation and the fact that the march had been aborted

and I think at first he did not really know what caused it he said that he had arrived in Memphis and got off the plane and went directly to the head of the line normally the staff of SCLC was involved in the organizing process that is getting ready for the march and usually if there any problems and conflicts within the community they would know about it there were no SCLC staff people present in Memphis it was just the local people the sanitation workers and the local committee however there was some SCLC board people who lived there and so he was not a prize of the fact that there was a conflict within the community there were some youngsters who were who had some problems with the way things were being done and I guess the the assumption was that

that had been smoothed over but Martin was not aware of this that is by the leaders had assumed that it had been smoothed over so as the march when the march began when the rock throwing started Martin was very nervous because he knew that if violence be started if it broke out it could lead in any direction and he also felt that he would be held accountable and responsible although he you know he really didn't know anything about the background of it at all so when he called he was he was very distressed but he was also I would say depressed and and he said to me you know I I really hate to see the newspapers in the morning because I know they're going to say Martin Luther King Jr is responsible for this violence and you know I tried to just sway him from thinking that way but he and I said well you know you you are not

responsible and every demonstration that SCLC has organized you know this did not happen it didn't come from the demonstrators but it came from people on the sideline of course but the fact is that you know you know he got blamed I did everything I could to try to encourage him and but he was obviously very much depressed and down in spirits I understand that he had a press conference that night and the press of course sense that he was you know he was he was very much depressed but the next morning when he had a press conference again I understand that you know he was almost like a new person he he seemed to be you know really inspired he spoke with a lot of energy in his voice and

so what did Dr. King tell you about the press conference in the next morning? Martin said the next morning when he took Dr. the press conference he sort of had that take charge attitude and normally you know he would let someone else give an introduction and he would then come on but he started himself and and he was telling them you know what do you plan to do and I think the idea was to to you know go on and have another march and so on the press after the conference asked him Dr. King I mean during the conference they asked him what happened since in the last night that you know you seem to today you seem to be quite different I mean you

you seem so up and and so much with it last night you seem kind of down did you talk to someone last night and he said no I'm only talk to God and but I but but the fact is that he himself felt something all the night and we are not quite sure except that that connectedness I think that he did have to God but the fact is that when he came home and he seemed to have been feeling you know pretty good but there were times in the discussion that you know I could tell that he was the thing was on his mind and he seemed to you know worried that evening we went to the Abenethis for dinner and we spent the evening at their home and Martin of course liked to eat and

Mrs. Abenetha had some of his favorite food and even homemade ice cream and so we had you know a warm fellowship after we ate because you know he fell off to sleep for a while but then Bernard Lee started talking about that experience the night before and the day that morning and Revan Abenetha said I've never seen Martin like that said he had kind of a lion quality about him and and they were just saying there was really something very special that they felt even though they knew him very well that had come over him and I think for them that was that meant you know sort of like an all one or some kind that you know again you know they were in awe as

to how he could get that strength when he obviously could be very low and very much like any other human being and then he could transcend and somehow be able to be above it but the fact is that that was a very difficult weekend for him he called in the staff from across across the country and from Memphis and they had a meeting in Atlanta and they made plans to go back to Memphis to regroup and to organize for another march and I think the march was going to be held it was going to be held would have been held the following Monday after the assassination now this was the 28th when the march was aborted and the 29th was the meeting in Atlanta but in the process of that meeting Martin talked to each one of his staff persons you know like

individually but within the group and he told them the things that they each had to do and many of them said it reminded them of the of the last supper when Christ talked to his disciples then you know they came together because they were not together some of them wanted to leave Memphis some of them didn't want to go a most of them really didn't want to go to Memphis they were just going because Dr. King said we needed to go by way of Memphis and of course they all got together and said we'll go back to Memphis and decided when each one would be going in the next week so I think he felt much better after that you know that experience and by the time he went back to Memphis on Tuesday I think it was Tuesday as I said this was Saturday Tuesday of the next week you know I think he was prepared and feeling good the last time I talked to him

was was on a I guess it was Thursday night it was Wednesday night just after he had spoken at the Mason Temple as a matter of fact they'd been meeting all day and he didn't want to go to that meeting that night he said he had said Reverend Avenue over and he said because I just didn't feel like going but it's thundering and lightning here we have a thunderstorm taking place he said but you know Ralph is just called and said that I needed to come over and said the people were waiting for me and they really didn't want anybody else to speak but me so he said I guess I'll go on over there and I'll call you later so I'll call you tomorrow night well of course this was April 3rd and I didn't get that call naturally because he was assassinated but I'm told by

Reverend Avenue and others who were there Reverend Avenue said that Martin spoke that night you know again as if it was kind of a what you call a swan song and he talked about the fact that if he had had a choice of which period in history that he wanted to live in that he would want to live in you know in that period at that particular moment and he went on to give all the reasons why as he went through history and he talked about the great moments of history and there's greatest that they were and he would name them individually you know the Greek period and on and on certain experiences in the United States but this is the greatest moment

in the history of our country that you know that that I'd like to leave it I because then he talked about all the things that had happened in the civil rights movement that and the progress that had been made that made him feel that this was the most important time in history and then he finally he came around to telling about threats and his final statement which I think everybody knows now is history um and um but that uh well what else can you say do you have any thoughts about the road from the voting rights act of 65 that your husband had struggled so hard for to this convention where 8,000 very diverse black people came together

to discuss the future of black politics in America um I think it was a very significant gathering in that it was I guess the first time that in recent history that we'd had people from so many persuasions coming together who were black who had a lot in common and yet had were very different in many ways in terms of their political uh their their um I would say the ideologies and um I think it was a a tremendous effort and uh we uh I think we sent a message to the nation I think particularly to the um to the political parties um that uh you know we were not going to

be taken for granted um and uh that we were organizing and I think that was important um 1972 was an important year many people forget that Shirley Chisholm ran a gallant race as the first black woman to run black to run for president and a black woman and you know I think Shirley was a real pioneer and uh it was that that race that convention I think that galvanized a lot of black America behind Shirley uh and each time that you know that happens it's a learning experience I think uh and it learned white people learn about black people and learn to uh to I think to respect certain that black people the fact that black people

are can achieve that they're intelligent and uh they can uh uh lead Shirley did at that time and I think we we need to remember that she made a tremendous contribution uh as the uh as the first black and then of course most people who are younger remember only uh Jesse Jackson's race uh which is very which is very important and very significant but I just like to look at that whole span of history. Once again you were lucky because we ran out after um you gave us a speed alarming. So do you remember any feelings that you had as you stood there up on stage next to Mrs. Betty Sheba's um and I'm wondering if you also wonder think that it was any coincidence that this gathering happened in the last year of Nixon's first term in office.

I think I may have met Betty Sheba at another time but um the fact was that we were there together and I certainly had not really had had much contact with her. I think the fact that we were there together at least presented a you know some semblance of unity uh unity does me uniformity and I think that's a message you know to the the American people uh black people and white people alike um I I think that uh the overall um um significance of of of that coming together um um uh said to uh to us that you know we can together do a lot more than we can being separated

and divided now not that there was not some uh divisions within the group at that particular time but I think it was a very forward step uh working on uh bringing uh the black community and the black leadership together in a kind of a family leadership family relationship not that we have fully achieved that but I I don't think we've attempted anything since then like that of that magnitude. What was your thinking behind inviting Bishop Tutu to the first Martin Luther King Jr. uh breakfast and uh memorial in Atlanta in uh 86. Bishop Tutu had been the uh spokesperson

in the anti-apartheid movement from South Africa who had I think uh more than anyone else symbolized the spirit of non-violence. He had uh received the Nobel Peace Prize uh and uh it was important that as we celebrate Martin's birthday for the first time nationally there be a UN International uh representative who had championed a cause seems similar to uh Martin what Martin was involved in and I think that Bishop Tutu was a good representative of that uh to make that connection with South Africa was very I think important uh in in the work of the the King Center the continuation of Dr King's work not that we had not identified with it you know earlier and been

involved but the fact is to to have it happen at that time was very important we had hoped that somehow despite the differences are in uh in policies of uh government that we would have been able to get the president to come at that time but we were not able to because we could envision a picture of the president with Bishop Tutu receiving the non-violent Martin Luther King non-violent peace prize uh together on the same platform and uh seems to me that would have been a very powerful message that could have been sent throughout America and around the world now why why did you have the desire to make the connection between South Africa and the civil rights movement because

apartheid is uh the worst I guess uh form of racism uh that uh we we have seen in and I guess in in the uh in the modern world and Martin always said that next to that Birmingham was next to Johannes Brooks South Africa in terms of its suppression uh racial oppression and that that's why he felt that Birmingham was important to be the the focal point of the uh the public accommodations campaign uh if we could um if we could demonstrate the ending of segregation in Birmingham uh it would have repercussions for and why the other thing is we've always known that there was a connection

between South Africa uh and what was happening there and what we were doing in our struggle from Montgomery on there was a bus boycott in Johannesburg South Africa in 1956 and it was linked to uh Montgomery in terms of its influence the influence of Montgomery had had on the people of South Africa in Johannesburg and Martin always really wanted to uh to make the connection stronger himself he did issue a joint statement with chief Latule in 1962 uh and he made several statements um on on the situations of however he called for the two of them called for an international boycott uh and he said in that statement if only two nations really decided that they wanted to end the system of a party in South Africa it could be done and he named those nations as the

United States and uh Great Britain uh but the fact is that uh uh uh Martin didn't live to take on that cause per se but he was very much aware of the interconnectedness of it uh as being a part of of a problem which affected all of us and in a sense uh we cannot be free until the people black people saw and other people of South Africa are free Great cut speed marking So I'd like you to think about the significance of Martin Luther King Jr um beyond civil rights to the nation as a whole and then international The holiday for Martin Luther King Jr was always meant to be a holiday for an American hero who was not only a hero for America but for people internationally

uh Martin Luther King Jr's message of uh peace and non-violence of uh of justice for all people was much greater than the problems that we face in America he often uh talked about the triple evils of poverty racism and war which were all forms of violence that were international in scope and that we couldn't solve either one of those without working for the solution of the other the problem of apartheid in the South Africa is certainly very much a part of the uh the three evils racism but poverty and violence I mean war is the ultimate in violence and we have responsibility as a democracy if we want people to respect us as a democracy to make sure that

a nation that proposes to be a democratic nation follows uh in that vein South Africa has not included black people when black people in South Africa cannot vote cannot participate in the process of their government then we as a nation have a moral responsibility uh to work for their liberation and for their self-determination great thank you