Town Hall Meetings: Earthquake '89; Town Hall Meeting #1; Town Hall Meeting #1 You Said it all April thank you

Washington I'm Dale Willman And you're listening to us piece Santa Cruz Monterey Salinas and the bakery has provided a grant to help make this hour program possible bigotries third location is open at forty six forty seven sixty three SoCal drive across from the SoCal post office. And we have a special town meeting which we have scheduled for this evening and our moderator Eric Scheck will tell you more. Thank you very much. You are listening to KUSA piece Santa Cruz Monterey Salinas our time is 8 minutes after 6 o'clock and welcome we got going just a little bit late for a variety of reasons people have meetings schedule difficulties and actually one of the more difficult traffic situations that any of us have ever seen in terms of getting to the Cape USP studios. A little bit surprising but if you want to drive down 7th Avenue don't right now it's very very crowded. I'm going to get to our program just about immediately introduce our guest talk about some of the issues and shortly we'll be opening up the K O S P phone lines so that we can all talk together the purpose of this meeting is to share information share points of view. And lastly just have a chance to air out how we're feeling and doing as

we enter the second week of recovery now after the earthquake. First of all it would seem appropriate to comment on what's happening in Washington D.C. right now where it's now nine minutes after 9 o'clock and the only reason we give you east coast time is that at midnight tonight unless President Bush signs a government extension emergency bill the government will run out of money. Why that's relevant to this meeting and to all of us is that the leadership of the House and this morning the Senate saw fit to put the emergency relief bill which will directly affect all of us in this county onto that particular bill that by the way Representative Tom Campbell told me this morning is why 99 House of Representative members voted against that bill not because they were against relief for California but philosophically against attaching even an important rider like this to an emergency a bill to extend funding for the government. Yesterday the House voted a three point excuse me two point eighty five billion dollars in relief for earthquake ravaged northern California this morning the Senate upped the ante to three point four billion

and that essentially means seven hundred fifty million extra dollars because a couple of hours ago the House went along with that in one of the quicker House-Senate conference ing will ever see this is probably the fastest relief measure we will ever see and it directly affects us. President Bush has a little under three hours to sign it. The White House says he will. And that means not only does the government keep going but we're going to see hopefully a lot of money here quickly in Santa Cruz County in Northern California. That may be relevant to how we're going to talk about tonight. I certainly wanted to open with what I think is an optimistic note because rarely have we ever seen Washington react so quickly. Again my name is Eric Scheck and I'm pleased to welcome in studio and will be also joined by guests on the phone as well as taking comments shortly. Let me begin by saying hello to the mayor of Santa Cruz Marty worm out. Hi Eric it's nice to be here. Well we're awfully glad you're here and we thank you indeed for that sitting next to you on one side is the city planning director for the city of Santa Cruz Peter Katzenberg. Do I have your last name correct sir. Sure. Good. And on the other side of me are Marty worm how it is the

public information officer for Santa Cruz he's Ron Paul Welcome Ron. Good evening. And we had intended to have several more merchants we will be joining us several of them by phone and in fact at least one is on the way but as we mentioned traffic is horrendous this hour. One of the merchants from the Downtown Association and the Pacific Garden mall the owner of logos John Livingston welcome John. What is the purpose of this is to talk about some of what's been going on in a number of meetings in the city of Santa Cruz and we know that hundreds of people wanted to hear what was going on both late last week and today so no more logical way to do it and to share that information. Then on the radio and Marty we're mad as the mayor of Santa Cruz I'll start with you and perhaps the overall comment that you made that I thought was a good one that was quoted today that in some ways the heart of Santa Cruz may be gone but in many ways the heart and spirit of Santa Cruz are where we're going next with all of this. I think that's right Eric. It seems to me that we've fallen into the trap in the last week of speaking about this spirit of Santa Cruz

if it exists in the concrete and mortar and. Bricks and boards that fell on the Pacific Garden mall last week and clearly that is not the case. We have had an enormous loss but I think that the the spirit and imagination and creativity of people in Santa Cruz means that we'll put it back together again and not without great sacrifice of course. But I do believe that we're going to come back as a downtown. The next person perhaps appropriate to talk to about that. John Livingston of logos on the Pacific Garden mall. There is a spirit and a heart that's going rather strongly. It's also true that a lot of businesses are in terrible desperate straits right now and I want to start by getting your point of view on that. Well my first reaction when after the dust settled and the information was being disseminated about public money coming in and so forth I thought it was more that there was definitely that kind of spirit to let's

get this thing over with quickly let's rebuild it and get going. The problem is that as we get into the administration of all that has happened since then there's been a tremendous division within the downtown community very strongly so. Sort of on the lines of the people who did all right and people who didn't do all right. And also amongst the administrators who are forced into this horrendous position of basically having to choose who's going to live and who's going to die. And you know I would want to be in that position at all. I think that it will be a long time a long time before we get over the bad feelings that resulted from this. I heard well probably the person who I consider to be most active in the Santa Cruz community amongst the people I know say under his breath the other day that it's the last thing he'll ever do for this community. And I think that he feels and I do and others do. That in these for the sake of expedience. In many cases that we have been

treated really unfairly and with more regard for the protection of the city. In a financial sense then and for the protection of a city in a cultural and human sense and I know that there's argument here and I'm not saying that everyone is trying to do this. I'm just saying that that may be the net result of what's happening right at this moment. In other words if I can speak to what I think I hear you saying it may not even be individual people but rather that the situation has ended up with some of the feelings that you just yes John. Yes. Let's talk about numbers how many merchants are we talking about affected both on the Mall itself and via the Downtown Association. Access to that and again we will be hopefully speaking with among others Louis Rittenhouse or the Downtown Association and several other merchants understand we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of merchants and related small businesses in the area we're not talking about a dozen or two. That's right. Marty Eric there are about six hundred twenty

businesses and professional offices in the downtown area not just on the ball but if you take the whole downtown area and of course very few of those are working right now. So that gives you some of that magnitude not that many of them but lots of people you know and close to 4000 employees overall downtown area at least that's the statistics I got from the Downtown Association. So those are the similar to approximately the ones that I had to. John you said that there may be a division between those that really got creamed by this and those that didn't. Well I just think that's going to happen naturally I think that people who did all right want to get back to business as usual quickly as possible. And it's to their advantage to you know get the rubble out of the way and the people who have had serious problems and do need time to fix it or perhaps just time to consider it. They're obviously going to run in the other direction. They're going to want to pull back keep the wrecking ball away for a little while and let's see how to save and not how to destroy it. And I think that's where the division

comes. It's an appropriate place to bring in one of our guests who is the head of city planning for Santa Cruz Peter Katzenberg or Peter issue of the mall is sure not to demolish partly as John sketched it is certainly one that all of you in the city have been looking at carefully in the last few days give us an idea what the outline is. To place the two situations in one surrounding the mall and the other parties the rest of the city. I don't think we can say at any given point what the conditions are with respect to what is being demolished and what what isn't. I think there's still evaluations going on to make to make determinations. With respect to the balance of the city. I think in all of this discussion is useful to think that the DC does not only consist of the mall but also Wolf of a great many other buildings in town. I don't think we have the kinds of serious situations that you see in the mall. I also have a comment on the discussion earlier about the future and the

relationships because. I think there is sort of a sort of adieu sire. He seems to want to know answers particularly in a situation where there are many questions and there are no species specific answers actually. People do want answers and people won't understand what's going on. Writing it's really important not to make. A judgment about the future. Or the present for that matter until we have a good hand on what the facts are. It's frustrating not to want to not to speculate or not to get too far ahead of ourselves but the business of you know what's going to be like who's being who or who isn't. I think all these things I think really need to be tempered by an understanding of what the facts are and until those until the facts are very known building conditions what can be rehabilitated and what can be and other decisions have to be made until these facts are in I think it's really not really productive to speculate on what the impact of this thing. Well I agree in terms of overall issues and in part you're saying Peter the facts aren't in yet.

Not going to be in for a long time I think. One thing that I am realizing because much of this is not coming into the playing department we are into this for the long haul. There's going to be a quick fix that's going to put everything back together in the space of a few days with a few weeks. We're going to be doing this thing for four months and years. And yet we have merchants such as articulated by Tom Livingston moments ago who are going to need to assess rather quickly about this and let me bring up another issue. How does FEMA's fit into this Is there an issue in terms of making a decision and a timetable I've heard in covering the news various discussions that the Federal Emergency Management Agency may or may not have deadlines to make decisions in terms of what money may come from them. Let's say first of all about the decision whether we're going to reconstruct these buildings tear them down or or go about that. I'm not sure landfall you're the one to answer but I want to bring you into this if you had conversations with thema from the city's point of view. No I've had no connection with theme. OK up to this point.

Yeah. Is this a relevant issue because as I sit here listening to this I'm thinking of what John said if I was a merchant First of all I'd want to get him. So maybe I need to start with that point and want to get in and look at my place. I want to evaluate the damage I'd like to get the money out of the cash register various issues. The city has a point of view that maybe I can't do that because of safety considerations. Bring us up to date on that Morty. Well let me say this one of the most excruciating things about this kind of disaster Eric compared to some other excruciating national natural disasters unlike a hurricane in which at the end things are either flattened or they're standing up and you go from there. After an earthquake you have a very very large gray area. If you look at the mall there are certainly some buildings where probably somebody could walk in a door tomorrow and sell blue jeans on the other hand there are other buildings where there's little decision left to be made the buildings are down and the question is how do you and when do you clear away the rubble and maybe with the additional question as to

whether it's safe for anybody to access that building at all at any time in order to take anything out of it then somewhere in between that is a very large area in which we have tried to get the very best assessment from structural engineers throughout the state of California who came here under the Office of Emergency Services for the state. To assess whether buildings can in fact be rehabilitated. Now you have to understand that from the city's point of view this is a public safety issue. It is an issue of whether we're sitting around and saying Is this a wonderful building or not. Is this a worthy building or not is this the building we'd like to have here or not is a question of is this building so hazardous that we cannot allow it to stand up. Now there is to some extent a sense of urgency about that. If you're talking about public safety you don't debate for a very long time. I mean you try to act in an expedient way to make the streets safe again that you try to balance out with looking at other

issues in terms of whether rehabilitation is a possibility without greatly incurring public dangers by allowing that building to stand. These decisions are terribly complex. The complexity is added to by the fact that in many cases the owners of the buildings are not the owners of the businesses and sometimes their interests are not identical either. But I want to make it very clear that this city's interest at this point is public safety and whereas we're interested in doing everything we can to preserve public safety short of demolishing buildings we have to consider demolition if we really believe public safety is at risk. Let me remind listeners as you listen to KUSA Pee wee are to holding what truly is a town hall meeting and we are going to be going to some of your thoughts and questions as general listeners and those people who have used in them been part of the mall for years. In just a few moments we're also going to be joined on the phones by various different points of view from merchants and other people here on KUSA people who plan to stay on until 8:00 should the

situation warrant that again with us from the city is Peter Katz a burgher city planning director a public information officer on file you just heard Mayor Marty worm Hout and John Livingston of logos bookstore on the Pacific Garden mall. John I want to get back to you and maybe I could ask. Well I would let you know what I meant excuse me I'd like to comment on something Mark and maybe the question and you can comment on this too is public safety a clear issue in terms of is it real clear whose figures and whose issues of safety. It's black and white. Well first of all I'd like to say that I don't I don't take issue with anything when you said there. I mean I think it's all it's all true. Where I have a problem is this area of interpretation of. Safety and what you're doing here is mostly people who are running the city are not civil engineers and structural engineers and experts in this area so they're relying on people to come in. So as a president somebody goes out does a commission brings the information and makes a decision based on the advice of experts. So we have experts from all over the state and their strength is their weakness at the

same time this time one of the strengths is the fact they're not looking at what kind of building this is or who how nice a building is they're looking at is it safe. At the same time they don't have any roots in the community they're going to walk away the next day and who cares if you know some very natural very important structure came down. There also no one and no one involved in any of this wants to be the one to say. Maybe that's not so bad in a in a condition in a marginal situation. They don't want to be the one to point out to say This person made this decision and then it turned out there was a problem that the fiscal impact and the liability that the city would incur in any of these situations is absolutely foremost in the mind of most of the people involved in this. Now it's typical. I mean it's been history of the United States. Rather important that. We have a redress of grievances and the ability to to have a lawyer and have someone represent us who's an expert and say we disagree with the call here

and let's get specific. I'm getting specific I must disagree with what caller for instance I was just getting that OK. What I'm saying is that we have these engineers going through the city who had access to the buildings. They look through them all. They did well. I mean they were risking their lives to do that. The merchants and the owners of the bill talk about the building owners have been denied. Serious access by any of their own representatives to look at it and get alternate opinions. Now when this is looked at in the big picture. There's a big question here it's a really big question because these emergency powers that are issued. To the city manager. They are all comprehensive and he is supposed to be able do whatever he wants but there is a term in there I think it's called responsible that his behavior and the choices that he makes have to be responsible and any one of these items can be looked at. And if you have an engineer saying wait a minute now this building was torn down. Because an expedient relationship to the next building that

by their butt could have been saved. Possibly. That's a choice that's being made there. That's a very distinct subset of choice and that is where. I don't understand where. The substance is coming from other than the protection of the city and its liability. OK Marty before I get back to you end up perhaps other members of the city we've been joined by two more people here on K us peace town hall meeting about the downtown and I want first of all want to introduce Vicki Waskow news director here at KUSA P. Vicki will be joining us with some of the thoughts and questioning Hi Vicki. Good evening. And also joining us from Western visions which is on the Pacific Garden mall Carole Barnes. Glad you're here Carol. Thank you. And I'll invite you to join us we're just trying to take one at a time but other than that to be as freewheeling as we can I've heard. Several different expressions of lots of gray here. And as I attempt to understand the issues again a specific question raised by John Livingston maybe we should go to that. Should not owners be allowed to bring

in their own experts to also consider the issues of public safety. We'll go to Peter Katz over. I'm willing to comment on is I think to some extent we're talking about a conflict that that's not was solvable. I don't think the city is not acting arbitrarily. City manager isn't saying hey I want to tear this building down. The city manager is acting on the advice of not one or a couple U.S. on a on the basis of several evaluations that have been done when there are questions about actions demolitions or building conditions have been surveyed. The city manager is not taking a trivial approach to making his decisions. You described it earlier and I think you described the inherent conflict here. When we have a situation where one city manager connect you know laterally it's not really consistent with our general approach to government which is dialogue which is testimony which is all kinds of other things the things that we normally used to. I think what we're dealing with here is a different situation from the normal we're

dealing with an emergency. Good decisions have to be made. You know very rapid manner and I think from the city standpoint. If there is a choice to be made I think the city will probably err on the side of public safety. I think if the same decision is made by a property owner the property owner will probably own the site of the private interest. I think there is an inherent conflict. I think the you know and I think to the extent these two conflicts can be minimized or reconciled I think the city is trying to work this out. But AC DC just can't yield on the question of public safety. Now it's interesting and I think it's useful for my money actually to to not take somebody's work for granted. City manager says it is unsafe therefore we will not ask another question we will simply obey and lay down and you know and have it happen. I think it's eminently reasonable to ask the questions and ask for the documentation ask for the reasons I think we're all entitled to that. But you can't deny the fact that when there is a hazardous condition and there is a public safety issue the city manager has to act unilaterally. Given the kind of advice that that I

describe really. Well again that's Peter Katz a burger for the city planning is there no room in that and maybe more to go back to you for because we've got people whose livelihoods are on the line for people that they would listen to also in terms of structural engineering expertise to also take a look at it and sort of give them the power to make the call but to add them into the computation I think the problem with that Eric is how long you let it go. We have a street that's in a very dangerous condition right now. We've been fortunate we're continuing to have tremors of some magnitude daily I mean we had one this afternoon that scared me I don't know I don't know what it measured. We had one last night that was 4.5. We have a very hazardous conditions down there and we're lucky so far that nobody further has gotten hurt because there have been various people in the mall for various purposes and it is a dangerous situation. I think the question is when do you decide there's enough information in it

isn't as if the engineers or city engineers who made this assessment the Office of Emergency Services of the state keeps a file of engineers from around the state whose specialty really is looking at earthquake safety and buildings that have been damaged. Those people were called in to Santa Cruz after the earthquake and about 50 of them came to Santa Cruz and did assessments. There are files that were created on each one of these buildings. I don't believe there's any case that I know of in which there was only one engineers opinion solicited. I think you know to talk about it as if it's adversarial and as if there would be a city engineer as compared to private property owner engineers is to kind of distort the situation because the people who came in were really quite neutral in this concern. One thing I want to assure John F because I I feel sick about John's situation logo if not the city treasurer a state treasurer a national treasure you have things in logos that. My friends come from

Los Angeles to look for there is no question about the value of logos at all. One thing I want to assure you you said earlier decisions might be made expediently so that a decision made on one building was to protect another building. I can absolutely assure you as mayor of this city that that is not happening and that it won't happen and that whereas the city manager may have this extraordinary power during an emergency you continue to have city council members and a mayor who are advocating for you and who are looking over every single one of those files and consulting consistently to make sure that the values we care about and that the needs of property owners are protected so I'm sorry that's the kind of long wound about Answer. But I think that the information we have is neutral information not adversarial information and that these are fairly technical decisions. Understand appreciate appreciate it and your support because it is wonderful and I believe it. I have for example though that I

don't have an answer to what you just said. Several business owners I'm sorry building owners have proposed the possibility. That that demolition be done rather than with a wrecking ball and instantaneously with a demolition crew which is experienced at this type of work where the building be taken apart piecemeal and short as necessary to preserve either parts of the building or materials within the building. Now I know of several firms that are easily capable of handling this I meet friends in San Francisco that builds and demolish skyscrapers for that. This would be very little for them to do. Who would be ready to do something like this that I've been in touch with and other people have been in touch with and would be in a situation do it now. The word I get is the reason that this type of request is being denied is because I don't really understand it has something to do with the fact that female only allows one contractor or two contractors something like that. It has to be

controlled by the city I'm not sure what it is I haven't got a clear picture of that but it certainly doesn't seem to be a public safety problem it seems to be some sort of legal problem or protection problem. Does anybody know. Yeah I'll comment. Go ahead I'm going to get directly involved in some of this thing but clearly that kind of approach may very well occur for a number of buildings and something to clarify in the comment I made earlier I think the we're talking about a range of building conditions or building situations and we're focusing you know discussions here about the absolute most hazardous buildings. The city will take its will take unilateral and take its own demolition action only for buildings that are serious health and life safety concerns for the city to the extent they are not the kind of right kind of demolition to the extent other buildings may be subject to that I think may be good candidates for that kind of treatment. But looking at the question of

public safety is you know can that approach which is a lengthy approach which. Not that it shouldn't but it does interfere with other logistical situations. But it's I think it's mostly a matter of time. Does that approach that approach appropriate for the kinds of conclusions that people have drawn about the kinds of building conditions that exist for some buildings. And I think the city's analysis which I'm not real close to is no there are no buildings that are dangerous they're in imminent danger of falling on people on the street that if somebody takes stuff out moving up bookshelf or moving a desk or doing doing you know if you know it's changing the status quo to that extent. Buildings are that hazardous that they could literally collapse parts or all of the buildings that a city comes down on the side of. No it's better to err on the side of safety and not spend an extensive amount of time taking it apart bit by brick by brick. There may very well be buildings that are that can be rehabilitated that may be subject to the kind of treatment in large cities and then you see all the time a little area cordoned off.

It's blocked up there doing all 10 or ripping down buildings and put up a new one it's happening urban renewal is going on everywhere now and it's gone in a very safe way. Implosion so that they literally fall down and almost always there are many ways of doing it there's all kinds of ways of doing it and. The time factor is variable depending on the circumstances in some cases you can take a roof off. In a very short period of time showing up we're talking about two or three days and then the rest of the building is then at a certain point it's safe and it's habitable and you've eliminated the immediate damage. Now I'm saying that that this is not true in all cases it's true and there is true and it is true in some cases and even in some pretty some cases that are being considered pretty bad now. It's possible it seems to me that that there is a rush here. And the rush is in the interest of public safety. OK I don't question and I question the motivations there whatsoever. It seems to me that the rush though in itself is creating this arbitrariness that we seem to have that we're feeling whether it's true or not.

Let me sum up a couple things here at the U.K. USP again our guests from the city of Santa Cruz Ron fall. Public Information Officer Peter Katz a burger city planning director and Mayor Marty word how much we have to merchants here. John Livingston you just heard him from logos also Carol Barnes and she's with Western visions by the way Neal Coonerty was supposed to be here for very good reason could not but we're hoping to hear from him shortly by phone and other merchants as well by the way or numbers 4 7 6 2 800. And 4 7 6 2 8 0 0 0 right now for anyone who whose livelihood is connected with the mall and will get to the general listenership shortly. Maybe I could sum it up this way I'm hearing questions about why to demolish. I'm hearing questions about when to demolish And lastly I'm hearing some thoughts and concerns about how to demolish. You put all those three together you've got sort of like three dimensional chess and it's not only confusing to us laypeople. I would imagine making decisions based on those three kinds of issues aren't very easy either. Hi Carol. Yes let's go. That's from you I know. I know what let me say again.

Everyone under here is operating under so much stress I'm just delighted people are willing to sit down and talk and I mean that sincerely. Carol Lawrence dragged out of my house and I'm glad to be here. It's a difficult situation I feel very bad about your storage on it. And I. I wanted to thank the mayor and I want to thank Leon Panetta because I think the reason that we're getting all this great funding is because we have him in the. As in charge of the Budget Committee and I think it's great that he's he's working for us he's a great politician and we really have him to thank for what's going on in a positive way. It's an emotional issue. I've worked very hard for my store I don't know when I can get back into my building my landlord has had tremendous trouble getting into nearest town to find out when he can fix a building etc. etc. there is a lot of communication problems between different factions and when meetings are going to be and it's just a difficult time for all of us. But

I think our Downtown Association is doing a fantastic job. I wouldn't have known what to do if it weren't for the Downtown Association. I really wouldn't I wouldn't have known how to proceed in what was going on I was in shock as I'm sure most of my friends are on the Mall and almost everyone on the mall. And today was very emotional because my first store was in the Cooper house the first store and my second store was in the Kuiper house. And to watch it being torn down was tremendously upsetting to a lot of people. I don't know if it had to be demolished or not. I feel terrible I feel so I'm so lucky that my building is still standing and the people who can't get into their buildings I feel terrible for them. It seems like we don't we don't want to go too fast. It's we've all been shaken up and I would have to agree with John that maybe we might be going a little bit too fast I see. For instance the Kaleidoscope which was in the crystal kaleidoscope in the Kuiper House today went and he lost his entire inventory and it seemed like somebody could have

gone in there and gotten something even though I don't know the situation but it is real scary when you look at the building so I'm sure that they're trying very very hard to save all the buildings they can have and. And it's seems that way but. I am irritated as not and on a lot of merchants or tape about not being able to get into their stores when there have been tons of people on the mall. I still can't get in. We cannot apply for our loans unless we have our information. I've been very lucky my account had everything most people's accounts do not have everything they can't even get in to apply for anything unless they get in to get their leases. Their insurance who you owe money to. Your records your phone your life is in those stores and for the people who have lost everything I don't even know how they're going to manage and I think that the people who have lost everything on the mall should be given the highest priority. As far as grants from the banks SBA loans should be run through for them as quickly as possible and to help them to rebuild

because they are emotionally involved in their stores when you have a store you. For most people downtown it's a very personal thing we're not big corporations that have huge chains that's an individual person that may just may have one or two stores in the entire area. And your life's work it's your lifeblood it's it's who you are. It's a part of my identity and I'm sure it's a part of the identity of all the merchants downtown. So I think the people who have lost the most should get should be put on a priority list and help the most. That's what I think in certain Carol Barnes of Western visions there's a couple things in that and maybe if I rephrased it this way. Yesterday yesterday as a number of people were allowed to merchants were allowed to walk and look at various areas and either I guess Marty or Peter you could answer those wearing the plastic helmets and signing liabilities if they are merchant feel strongly enough about getting in there and I'll get to the other issue in a moment. Yes I hear there's public safety issues could they not sign off a liability waiver to say look I'm

putting myself in jeopardy but I'm going to do it because it's worth it to me you know what we do it. I'd really like to answer that if Peter doesn't mind but first I want to assure Carol that the cooper House did not come down today. At least I kind of saw that it wasn't. But you know I mean I'm sure there are people who are hearing this he's getting down and I think well you know I did know I was still being made and there are still consultations going on among the engineers that OK so yeah Kuiper houses and often just NO NO NO NO NO NO. Cooper house is still intact so I just want people to know that before everybody I nearly had a heart attack when you said it and I realized when I saw the cranes you know there are three in the afternoon it's Botox. Spode they are they have signed the permission for the older part of the building that was destroyed to be you know basically removed and they had unfortunately the building was safe enough that there could be access to move furniture out of that part of it into the newer part of the building. And I don't know if it was completed but I know that was undertaken today. I want to talk about Eric's

point about safety because it's a compelling issue and it's a knotty issue. If somebody says look that's a risk I want to take you're talking about my livelihood you're talking about my life. Why do you have a right to tell me I can't take that risk I should make that decision for myself. I absolutely agree. But unfortunately when someone makes that decision they're making it for a lot of other people too because I don't care what kind of wafer someone signs. If you go in there and rubble falls on you we're going to send in our public safety workers to get you out. We're not going to say well terribly sorry you want to take this risk therefore you can lie there in the rubble. We're going to send people in. And having heard the fire chief describe for me what public safety workers do when they go into a building like that to get someone out. I'm not willing to take that risk when they go in and they don't start digging at the top of the rubble because they figure the person is at the bottom of the rubble. And what you want to do is get to the person as fast as

possible. So they start building themselves a little tunnel. They start borrowing down into the rubble trying to pile rubble grant them and boards around them as they go to get to the person as fast as possible. That is the most dangerous situation you could put somebody in because the slightest tremor at that point will bring the whole thing down. And the rescue workers had so unfortunately whereas I really do respect people's rights to make decisions about their own lives. I don't think that we can make that kind of decision those of us who have to deal with these horrible things to put other people's lives at very very great risk. And anyone calling in some of those buildings is an enormous risk to everybody else. Well I'm not really that anxious to get back into my building to tell the truth until I know it's safe. I personally would like to go in with an engineer with me to tell me personally that the building is all right to walk in the building with him to see what the problems are. I don't want any of my customers walking in the

store. What if we have another quick in five years I want to make sure my store is safe before anybody goes in. But what I think they're own is they don't want to have to come in after you and they would have if an aftershock occurred. Well I'm glad they would but I. You need to be there in the building that the average building is not a building that is going to be prohibitive to me. Yeah I just want to be that interested in rushing into my building. I just know that it's a concern of everyone to be able to get all of their papers. And it seems as if there have been people in and out. And it depends on your tag of course. I know but it's frustrating for everybody. You just have to wait and that's the way that it is and you just have to wait and it's more important it's more important to have downtown rebuilt in a way that's going to be safe. It's a wonderful opportunity for us downtown to make a great downtown to make a

safe downtown and I hope that our leaders are going to be in the community are going to be visionaries as far as an adding things and making it even better than it was before. Perhaps doing things like connecting downtown with the beach. We have a lot of a lot of opportunity and I just hope. That the buildings are going to be as beautiful as the buildings were before that's the only thing I wouldn't want something that was designed well. So let's go to John with just what does 15 minutes come from. Well getting back to that I mean what does that number come from. Again I don't want to you let us know what the 50 million. Well in most cases people are being let into the dangerous areas of their business for 15 minutes to get up essentially which I mean I realize that instead of just people just took it down and didn't even give it I'm not saying say I don't appreciate the 15 I'm just wondering if anybody knows where it came from. Well in some situations access is not possible at all. In others it's possible to very limited parts of the building and in other cases it would be

possible throughout the whole building. At this point it's a question of trying to prioritize John just listening to the two of you. I feel all the emotion in turmoil and conflict I felt this whole week because everybody has special needs from the barber who stands up and says If I could just get in there and get my shares that's all I need. How long could it take you why can't you deal with my problem. If I could get my shares I could go out here somewhere else. To the person like Carol who is saying I need my records my business is going to be fine and I'm going to be alright but I'm very you know it's really hard for me right now I don't have my insurance. To someone like John who is saying please go slow you're talking about my life Don't take this building down. You know somehow we have to prioritize what we're going to do in terms of dealing with all these issues we can't do it all at once. We bring the whole city town probably if we let everybody in to do what they wanted at once. We wouldn't have the personnel to be able to handle it anyway. So you have to prioritize what you're going to deal with first. The issue of giving people very limited

access to their buildings right now to take care of those priority needs was because we saw that as a priority that there were people who had to get in and out people left their paychecks people laugh. You know all the lists of their inventory in the buildings where people could get in whether those buildings were coming down or not it seemed a good idea to get people in in a very limited way to get out things that they most needed. Fifteen minutes is somewhat arbitrary it's a question of trying to reduce the risk. Frankly probably legal consultants would have liked us to take less. The council is trying to err on being compassionate to people wherever we can and balance that out of not making the risk too great so you're balancing a risk in that equation. Absolutely yeah. This is key USP. I'm Eric Scheck along with Vicki vos We're talking with members such as Mayor Marty worm how you just heard her. We also have Peter Castle burgers to be planning director Ron fall the City excuse me Public Information Officer John Livingston owner of logos and Carol Barnes owner of Western

visions. Again we had expected a new community in here Neal I have a sense you're listening and we'd certainly like to ask you to join us by phone and for seven six to eight hundred We're not stacking things on the side of book owners either on the way although you know three of my favorite bookstores are involved in this equation. But Neal Conan has been on the scene for a long time in his point of view I think will help us as well. The time right now is about 11 minutes before 7:00 o'clock around 7:00 we're going to go to the phones for general listeners for seven six to eight hundred and if there are any merchants listening right now we invite you to join us right now we're going to leave the lines open for anyone connected with the mall in terms of their livelihood or their jobs. I don't intend to just limit it to merchants if you worked on the Mall for seven six to eight hundred and 10 12 minutes or so we'll go to the many of you who lives are part of the mall because that's where you went to to shop to connect with people to be part of the warehouse said the heart of Santa Cruz and part of the heart is dealing sort of with these recovery issues as well. I'm concerned about something that was raised by by Carol which is how can you possibly go and

get some financial recovery if you don't have your record so are we looking at a situation here and I guess without feeling here we can't get full comment where you're in a Catch 22 all your records are in a place the city is saying for safety reasons you can't go in there and that is some of those small merchants. How does one get out of that problem. Any anyone have an answer to that difficult want. Well again I think except for in full of people everyone is going to be able to reach those those records full of people and buildings and that's what I mean. But by and large it's a matter of time you know arranging entry safe entry to recover papers as well as other goods. And the other issue I wanted to raise actually a caller already raised it has to do with we're coming up on what for merchants is absolutely a make or break season there's no question about it. Thanksgiving to Christmas and actually it's usually a little before Thanksgiving I want even complicate it by saying the timing of this was terrible. It almost sounds crass but for merchants this is this is the time you either make it for you or you don't. So in looking at that and I'm telling

you John and Carol what you already know how does that enter into all this concern if it does at all. Tremendously for most of the people that I've talked to who are merchants and I talk to them all the time because I feed a long time downtown and all the meetings. That's. When you've worked all year. Personally I started ordering things in February for the first time I've been working for all these months towards this particular time. If I don't have a good safe in my store I'll probably survive. I'm lucky my store is doing very well and anyone who says the Santa Cruz Pacific Garden mall is in a good place to have a store you're wrong. My store is turning very well there. And I hope it's going to continue to do well there but it's going to be a problem. Some people may go under because of this. We need to have space for it. Alternative space for people to virgins to go to. I was it was my understanding at the meetings that they're going to do Downtown Association is going to

arrange for alternative space. But today when I called they said they weren't sure about it and that made me extremely upset because I have just found out today I may have to move out of my building. I didn't think that I would have to so that I finally learned that I have to move out of my building. Now I'm going to have to wonder where I'm going to go and I don't want to leave the downtown area. Most people do not. We're going to lose a lot of merchants so we're going to move to cap Tola and forty first avenue some already have because we don't have the spaces available for them and that's definitely a priority I think the priorities are fixing the buildings getting them back getting the people back in there and dealing with the immediate situation of Christmas for the retailers which is going to assure that the same merchants are going to be on the Mall that the that are there now I would hate to see all the merchants have to move away for one reason or another and then have a bunch of other stores come in I think the people who have gone through the quake and have been there to serve to stay there and they all

want to stay there as far as I know. So that's something that we really need to know. I'm one of the right in terms of continuity does John. I think the Downton needs continuity and you can't just close it for you're not expect for some sort of. Ramifications of that and then also in a few years where i'm nothing so much about the Christmas season myself I think that certain businesses are oriented towards Christmas and they'll be hurt very badly and then in general businesses which are more on the edge will suffer. But there's the other aspect of it is the employees because most businesses who cannot function even at full capacity even if they're open. I mean I've got people you have staff that you've been loyal to for whatever length of time and all of a sudden there's no place for them. And even if you in a year or so maybe two years get up to the strength that you were before this event occurred is a could be a serious erosion of staff because you couldn't keep him going at that point and it's

really got long term ramifications on the business as well. We're joined on line 1 by and Schwartz she's got a point of view that is also part of this that of artisans and other artists involved and good evening. I think they're pretty far. From File. Debra Opri. OK. After all much of a lot of crap. Out of court for a lot of the record much money that's the government. Well. I have heard of course the record will go up quite quickly. Why do you have. I don't know about it but I think about that right now but I'm thinking I'm gonna quit. And I would also like to add that thanks for being there I'm very proud that we're going to put

it up. Thank you dear. Thank you again. Well said anyone want to follow up on that. Now if you want to say a group we haven't talked about in addition to that are people to whom the mall was home. We have about 400 people out of housing in Santa Cruz and about two hundred and fifty I mean out of housing in single room occupancy hotels and about two hundred fifty of those people were people who lived on the mall. And I'm very very concerned about that issue of building costs and rents and what it will do to them too. We're not talking about that tonight but those are some people who are out and who many of whom are staying in shelters at this point and for whom we're going to have to find a better interim So I think we're Lucian's and I'm really concerned I mean what happens when you're in St. George in the Palomar. Fortunately are not in a category of building that can't be rebuilt. But what will the costs be and who you know will there be a desire to build the kind of housing that serves the needs of the people who were there then. I'm extremely concerned about this and concerned about the fact

that. We don't into pricing ourselves out of the small businesses that have just been the heart of the Fanuc craze because we are not going to be the interesting and wonderful place we are if we're nothing but chain stores that you can find on forty First Avenue and you know I think that that kind of economic consideration has to be just as much a part of the planning process as aesthetic considerations. Four minutes before 7:00 here a key U.S. piece Santa Cruz Monterey Salinas and a few moments we'll be talking with you who of course is the owner of bookshop Santa Cruz. First of all with some thoughts about employees we've got on line three. G.A. Hirsch she is an employee and I don't feel representing all the employees at Webbers camera but certainly part of them. Janet good morning or good evening. I think some of the people probably heard about it because it is so the face now. This is something that we have

always been. Everything. We don't know whether we have a red packet for what we do know that we have limited access but that's all how. Well are better than the final chapter on what they've done so far with all the information the formal form of everything. This is something that I think. A lot of us would like to know why do we even have a building. How much have a good one but if so where. Are we going have to go back. You know there's actually several questions one a specific one about the building that Weber's is in. Janet hold on for one other thought and then the follow up question is concerning if the buildings there when you get back in there's we can extrapolate that to a number of different questions. OK Peter counsel Berger How do we get answers to these kinds of questions. Well the building is there for what it's worth so I don't know what the condition of it is still one problem of course is is the urgency of it and people wanting answers when when it's not

when it's not readily available when a process right now of establishing and firming up the coordination between. Property owners business people engineers and access to the mall and I think it was just within the last day or so that we've developed an organized way in which people can contact the Downtown Association can get gain access to the mall with their structural engineers to do the analysis that's necessary to give you a better handle on what the building condition is for my money. I think people put too much stake in the techs that have been applied. You have to keep in mind that after the earthquake the emergency services inspectors came through and made judgments about what buildings were habitable. They did not spend hours on some buildings I may have been not it probably has been always but initially it was a quick pass through and a determination how safe buildings were for occupancy not necessarily structural considerations but how safe they were of occupancy or whether they could only had to be posted for a limited occupancy. And after that there were some buildings was

subjected to many buildings in the downtown area were subjected to a more specific kind of analysis but. The building on it will only really get a handle on the building conditions and what you can do with it once the owners own and engineers spend some considerable time at it and understands what the problems are what it's going to cost to fix it. Again I think that the question here is there a way that people can at least get a preliminary since for them employees owners of what the condition is my building still there I think there are a lot of people out there who simply don't have any way of knowing in the TV pictures they've seen. Don't give a real clear idea of what I have and someone handed it to me this afternoon and I didn't really read it but the Downtown Association I think had a press release on buildings that were attacked. Now I don't know what they were and I know how that is annotated described as to what it means but I saw a list with. With buildings that I think were taken if the public release matters and that's one thought that those red tags may not stay red tags permanently Jenna Hearst before move on

to your community. Any last thought or question. I quite frankly offered her credit. Har har that we do have to have her. Well that certainly was our idea too and I did hear Peter saying that the Downtown Association has been is beginning to compile some of the answers that the employees and Marty were told we were talking to up to 4000 employees at least the place where they can call and get some some temporary answers to those kinds of things. Eric did with getting it done downtown associations number. Yes yes again Louis Rittenhouse or was was to be with us was called away at the last moment and again we may be talking with him on the phone. But go ahead you have a Peter people who want to gain access to him who one day send engineers in for structural analysis should call the Downtown Association at this number 4 2 9 8 4 3 3 Downtown Association we have Charlie E.T. one of the associate plan is establish just a liaison between the Downtown Association and the city to facilitate access to the mall. Thank you again you're listening to keep us piece Santa Cruz Monterey Salinas our time is just a few

seconds after seven o'clock you know we've number of people on the line still keep moving to them. A man that I think all of us have a lot of respect for and he's certainly been a force on the Pacific Garden mall for a long time and the owner of bookshop Santa Cruz online too. Hello Neal and thank you for joining us. How are you. If I said fine it just seems too trite How are you. Well it's just been an emotional roller coaster not only dealing with the problems of the community and you know things with my family which fortunately I have good. But just like you know what's going on in the information there and and how it happened. You know it's just it's real. Difficult really I'm amazed how the communities responded. The government's response I think it's been very good and I think there's just so many factors in the sunshine to say and you feel that you know things go tremendously well with a little bit of news and then something bad happens. It's real difficult.

Bring us up to date on where things are with the book shop Santa Cruz. Well we were able to go in today for about 15 minutes and one person so I ran around in the dark and books about four inches deep on the floor. Everything else but intact and got some of our financial records some of the personal effects employees who ran out of the store before the purses and coats sweaters and that sort of thing at a few momentos we rescue the rocking horse in the children's play area which someday creates a new bookshops an experience and that was really difficult because I also felt the thing that might be the last time that I actually inside the story and you know we really. Felt deeply about the story and the community it was in. But you know we're still trying to see if there's any way that we can get the inventory out. It's doubtful but we're working on the response from the community and the response from the folks in the community. Nationwide it's just been. It's just.

In a real conflict the best been spent the last few days you know your words I think you hit an emotional chord for all of us sitting here in the U.S. studios. When you say the book community nationwide that's something we haven't heard about to tell us about it. Well I've been involved with the. Book community on the Vice-President the American book Association actually take over as president. But that'll be postponed every step won't happen right now and we just you know it's just a lot of people that are familiar with the story and knew me through my work and stuff I've gotten phone calls all over from the country going to California bookstores in the Bay Area. Working saving boxes for all three bookstores down the hall so that if we were able to get I want to point out that they would have a truck sent over with boxes if head office of the bookstore is actually shutting down and coming down and having the

whole crew work to get books out of all three bookstores again and you know people are collecting money for the employees of the free bookstores have started a fund drive to try to get the employees through the first month or so of this difficulty and you know that those sorts of things are just it's just unbelievable. We're really grateful for the. Community you've been listening to this for a few moments. What's the pointer or the couple of points you'd like to emphasize from your vantage point. It's just really hard to say I just think that the impact on the talent I mean you know it's a small town and the impact has been overwhelming it's been overwhelming for the community it's been overwhelming for what I sense of the community it's been and it's overwhelming for the government services and you know the it in stuff that the people who are making the decisions are. To me also of course you know not only Nature's. Trick I was going to save that

even to try to describe it but what the earthquake itself but a cop between all sorts of things that you just don't encounter or know how to encounter and you know in uncharted territory every decision you do you have to have to consider so many things it's brand new that you can do nothing by rote and it's an exhausting thing to go through. It's exhausting for money and I can't imagine what Marty and Peter and Dick Wilson and all the rest of people are going through and you know. To tell you the truth even though what is happening to bookshop Santa Cruz. You know may destroy it and personally. It may hurt me a tremendous amount. I feel that at this point you know I've been able to talk to them and I've been able to hear what they say and understand that it's not that I agree with every single decision that's not that I wish I could change something but I feel very happy

with the community as a large whether it's the government or the volunteers or the business community I just think that it's. Right now. I think listeners are hearing part of the generous spirit that your community has and why we turn to him for some thoughtful words on this Neal. Stay with us and by the way we've got a lot of callers. I'm giving some extra time to New York because it's special to do that and the folks sitting here. Let me just invite someone to join in with me on here. Well every Carol Bartz everything that Neal has said. I agree with tremendously. Hi Neal. I hope you're ok. I'm going to miss your store tremendously. I think half of my shoppers only came into my store because your store was there and you were going to really miss you in Santa Cruz and I hope you're going to rebuild and stay here because we really need you. My feeling is it is a difficult situation for all of

us and not just myself but the people who have lost their homes the people in Watsonville also. I'm hoping that we're going to be able to rebuild our mall and make it a positive and and wonderful place to be again. I don't know what else to tell you. I'm sorry Marty. Hi Neal Neal and I've had lots of discussions over the last week and I know exactly what he means about the emotional roller coaster. It's been so difficult dealing with a situation in which the news isn't clear and it's felt so much to me in so many cases like dealing with a very dear friend who you know you know you you look at what's happening downtown you know and you don't know what the course of it will be. And it's up and down. Yeah. And that's really hard. And at some point we have to bring closure. I mean at some point this community is going to have to start

on a healing process. And we can't do that until we have some completion in some of these cases. And I'm thinking about that too. And if I sound emotional about it I really am. And I know how I know how that is when you know I know how it is for his whole family. And I guess taking the rocking chair out of the bookstore really got to me but you know I'm glad you got in there for 15 minutes today. I mean I want to let you leave the last thoughts or comments to you here. Well you know I think and I want to. But having Stephanie Dailey anything we can do to. Eventually get back into the book business and have another book from Santa Cruz in some way shape or form. We're certainly going to do it in books for a long time in our community. Readers still layers have disappeared. You know we don't have such a silver market we have to find some way to

struggle to the end. In early November we were going to have our 23rd birthday party like we do every year with cake and ice. Even. At the store what we've decided is that. We're going to try to hold a birthday party on my front lawn for the bookshop and have everybody come to bring five good books as a gift shop. And maybe that will be the course that will start in the store. And I don't know if we can. Do that. Well Neil I hope we end up closing the street for that one because people do whatever it can to get the word out and there's enough people that love you in your business that we have to probably close down the whole block to do it but let's plan to do it and I want to talk to you real soon about that. That's no community and I think he hits sort of that emotional nerve that we've all felt on that a special conversation I want to reflect on that I also want to move on here KSB we have tons of people calling in. Neal thanks so much for what you brought to that from Shands

gallery joining us on line 3 is April Shannon and April thanks for waiting as all of you callers have as we talked with Neal. Hello April. Well jump in on this where you're feeling and thinking right now. OK. If you're really lucky my beauty program we did not know whether we have you know in traffic we were getting pretty. Our inventory. Yeah we get it all. Gotta go out in an hour and 45 minutes that's right. We spent all my low point in everything and we were only allowed three people you know every time but we did it all. We come off of off of everything we need out and I want to take your chair to express my thanks to all the people who helped. I also want to think of a couple people in the association have been working days to make this happen

in the House and our body will help to coordinate. Hey you know I think you walk away from. Our recalls her own. Business to deal with She's a week early patients dealing with of all merging nations. Interesting just really the most wonderful person. And I want to. Let her know that. Also I also want to let the public know there are a lot of merchants I have talked to including myself we feel. A lot of us feel really strongly that we want to relocate in fact all of the people I've talked to and nobody want me to close the business down. We all want to find another location and bother them say they want to be. Near the town because this is our home where we have always lived in a war you know we really feel strongly about that somewhat them already far from temporary. Bob even if the forty heard but I know a lot of them have temporarily you and everyone is hoping to return to the mall when tamale rebuilt

for two years. Yes I think a lot of people should know that you know until we're going to try to relocate close to town of Dahab full people should know that they are a lot of businesses trying to get out. So even when the construction start to happen on the Mall about other side streets and all that area they're probably going to be a lot of these are hidden that they are places to shop. And people have to come here for support or because we want to get back to their community. We want to be there for Chanu said Ali thank you.