Iowa Press; "Gov Jim Thompson, Lance Terrance"

The I would try to show a 12 hour tan recorded crescendo 284 the the the the the the major funding for this program was provided by friends of Iowa Public Television. The. Electoral mandate was unparalleled and this week his administration began to carry it out. There can be no question in anybody's mind. That the present tax system of the United States is too complicated. A proposal for a new tax system and rumors on Capitol Hill about a budget for us tonight. How it all plays in the country. We'll find out how the three term Republican Governor Jim Thompson of Illinois plans to cope with the president's budget and

will learn from a lot of Republican pollster Lance Terrence. How will the Reagan revolution will be received by those who ushered him into office. This is the Sunday December 2nd edition of I will promise. Here is Dean born. With the Reagan mandate the reasons for her myriad. The president's personal popularity the recovering economy his steady campaign assurance to voters that he would not balance the federal budget on the backs of American taxpayers. All cited his reasons for his margin of victory nevertheless concern over a bloated federal deficit remains high. This week the president gave his tentative approval to freeze some budgets at current levels while the Office of Management and Budget began sharpening the axes for some others. And the Treasury Department unveiled a new tax plan that promised lower taxes for many but as the reports there is in the Midwest are questioning the benefits of that plan.

There can be no question in anybody's mind that the present tax system of the United States is too complicated. It's unfair. If we tied savings and investment in economic growth and it must be changed with those words the administration released a trial balloon proposition to overhaul the tax structure. The result to be sure the White House remained at arm's length from the proposal it was laid it was Treasury's planning and it was the secretary of the Treasury Donna Regan who defended some of the more controversial elements of the so-called modified tax plan including the elimination of many popular tax shelters. The only way that we could get individual and corporate rates down substantially for all people was to take away loopholes deductions and special credits that now belong to the field. So and that and I judgment is the only path to tax simplification and reform.

We believe that I propose also fair and that they treat everyone alike. Even so while the rules may be the same for all the impact could vary. I think farmers probably would be among those who would be more severely impacted. Now there are exceptions to that many exceptions to that. But I think in general farmers and probably come out less well. Than the typical average taxpayer otherwise. The reason for that says Harlow is that rule changes concerning investment tax credits capital gains deductions and accelerated depreciation would have greater impact on the agricultural economy. For example under Treasury's proposal a and or equipment purchases would lose the incentive of a 10 percent investment tax credit and investment in equipment to no longer be depreciated at an accelerated rate. And for those farmers involved in livestock reading operations or who hope to sell land they would have to do so without the benefit of favorable capital gains rules.

Indeed farmers are not the only ones who are concerned about possible rule changes. Smokestack industry that hope to retool during the economic recovery may have to do so solely on the merit of such investment without government tax incentives for the states of the Midwest whose economies are geared to the production of food food products and farm implements. The tax plan could be a double whammy to their hope of recovery. And for a Midwestern state governments who've had to absorb the cost of the new federalism dealing with tighter federal budgets in the future maybe an even greater challenge. No doubt Washington and the White House will be a prominent part of the conversation among the nation's Republican governors who began meeting in Iowa today. What the Reagan mandate means to state government and to Midwestern voters is local take up tonight with yellowing Governor Jim Thompson now in his third term and with a prominent pollster Lance Torrance of Houston. The big question by Des Moines Register political reporter Davie Epson and by John McCauley a columnist for the Harris

newspapers. Governor welcome to Iowa. Thank you. The only state other than Illinois which lost a Republican senator in the interest of the Republican presidential landslide What do you think happened. I think the Percy race was probably a peculiar one. He lost a fair amount of the former crossover support that he had enjoyed through three previous selections blacks Jews labor and liberals. But I still think he could have won the only lost by 85000 votes out of several million cast. If he hadn't run significantly behind the president among Republican voters and I think that's where in the end he finally lost it was among Republicans. Do you think the economy had anything to do with it. No I don't think so. I think it was more of a personal thing this was a bid for a fourth term. Percy had always been somewhat uncomfortable with that. Illinois Republicans and he went from a liberal to a Reagan conservative in one election and that might have been

just a little too much character. Chad how does it look to you that someone has that out feeling the public pulse. Well the kind of reflect back on the Senate races for a moment because I think that's one of the most critical elections coming up really in 86 as maintaining or not maintaining the control by the Republican Party. A lot of policy that affects I was obviously going to be generated in my opinion Percy and the Japs and racers were bored and the personal losses are well there's a little bit more pivotal in terms of it. The closeness of its vote. And also I think that the perception of him. I did not work in the Jefferson race and Chuck Grassley as a client but I think Jepson lost his perception of effectiveness in that campaign with a very hard charging congressman who was able to basically rid himself of heavy ideology which is unusual in this story. What about 86. Are there any lessons that you've learned in 84 that may affect say the Iowa Senate race in 86 or the Illinois governor's race.

Well we've learned that the volatility of the American public is there each and every time I look at how change this election is from two years ago it's exceptional. I think we're in a period of realignment that doesn't mean the Republicans are going to get everything it just means that people are on anchoring some of their old ideas on how they vote and I think we're going to see candidates being elected on their own merits. I think how much of the Reagan policies can affect the second term we know historically this is not exactly good ground for Republicans to run in 86 but I think Chuck Grassley in particular has done a great deal of good homework to individualize himself even to the point of defense spending in a few other things that are not nationally known. Governor Thompson How do you feel about your party's prospects in Illinois and he said Well I think we learned some good lessons in terms of political organization in mining for votes. The Reagan reelection campaign in Illinois was probably the most sophisticated and diverse campaign that Republicans have mounted at least since I've been in politics which would be almost the last decade in that state. We've probably made seven hundred thousand or more phone calls from phone banks

continually tracking not only in you know the whole fashion but finding out who our target voters were who the undecided voters were. But we probably sent three and a half million pieces of specialized mail as well the campaign was divided right down to the last possible organized group Bailo Russians for a good while it was and we were very issue oriented in terms of mailing pieces pieces going out specifically just to Southern Illinois on the issue of America's place in the world as reflected by Jimmy Carter's handling of the Iranian crisis versus Ronald Reagan in Grenada for example that's pretty targeted stuff. And our vote fraud efforts in Chicago paid off enormously I think and so we became much more adept at conducting campaigns and registration drives and Republicans whatever you and I go to war vote fraud efforts in Chicago but I mean we undertook a vote fraud effort in Chicago because I thought that in 1900 two of my race which was very very close it almost went

to a recount. The U.S. attorney's convictions after the 1982 governor's race sent fifty five or six fifty six people to potentially for vote fraud and there was an estimate by federal law enforcement authorities that up to a hundred thousand first votes were cast in Chicago alone. So this time we undertook considerable efforts to make sure that there weren't names on the poll lists that didn't belong to real people who live there and almost 200000 names were removed from the polis before the election and then we had a lot of people out working in the precincts on election day so that complaints about voter fraud were almost nonexistent compared with 1982 and I think it showed in the figures down or move down state for me for a minute this farm vote in Illinois is not much different than the farm vote in Iowa. Iowa farmers are hurting a lot of people think that had something to do with the Democratic wins in the state. How do you see that vote in your state is it that critical in Illinois. It's a critical vote in Illinois when you add up direct AG.

Egg business in industry and commerce in the small towns of Illinois that depend upon the health of Agriculture and agribusiness and so it's an important component of our elections in our state perhaps not as large as I would but but certainly still important for us. No I don't think it's moving Democratic it's hurt a lot. There's a lot of personal hurt among the farmers because of the continued recession in agriculture but I think they in the end they said you know I'm heartened but I'm going with Reagan because he makes more sense as a leader than in Mondale. I don't think farmers are. Partisan in ascribing there was. They're certainly not as partisan in ascribing their economic woes as I have other kinds of blue collar workers for example. It's a torch is that what you're finding too in public opinion what we've just heard Governor Thompson say we all know that the farm community and particularly national elections can be very MCCURRY No one who's ever in office and who's not. But I do think the style of candidate after all farmers want to be protected want to be spoken for. And Congressman like you got here and knew Congresswoman I want

Jim Ross Lightfoot is obviously a man who wants to speak for farmers and he did well. So a lot of it depends on your style was what was your message and some of the overpowering factors of leadership at the national level. John you've got a head of 86 88. Thank you. You're pretty well acquainted with the highway and its position as the first caucus state in the country and knowing what you know about Governor Thompson do you think the Iowa caucuses have made. Well we we found a mouse trap. Q I'm a striking him. I don't think anybody has a handle on who's going to be running or not running in 88. We know that George Bush's vice president will well obviously be favored because of the position he has but I think it's going to be a wide open Republican primary and I think. As usual John Connelly paid the price for not considering I won't have enough in George Bush reap the benefits by. Allying himself with Mary Louise missile strongly in those pre-primary days so I think I will have a lot to do with Republican Party and I think if we don't understand the pharmacy better than we

do today we're not going to do as well as we should. What about a governor and I agree with him. I think you got it right. I think that the Republican primary in 1988 is going to be wide open and I don't get the sense that I think I just saw plain believe that the Republican party is conservative in as far right as some of the critics of it during the Republican National Convention try to make the nation believe if you look at the leading contenders for the Republican nomination in 1988 there aren't any of them who can be labeled radical in terms of their political beliefs even the one who's been labeled the most conservative in terms of his economic beliefs Jack Camp has got a very moderate voting record on social issues and I think Democrats and even the press are making a mistake when they label the Republican Party is so far to the right that they're going to be in trouble in 1988 because of that I just don't think it's so in fact I think today the Republican Party if you look at the philosophy of its leaders those

whom are mentioned most prominently for 1988 probably comes closer to reflecting the general beliefs of the average American than do the leaders of the Democratic Party particularly the ones who were just rejected. Well you're also describing as a kind of piety thing which Jim Thompson would be an ideal candidate don't you. Well I don't that's that's flattering. I've got to make up my own mind what to do in 1986. I don't know whether for example you could you could run for president from the base being governor of a state as large as Illinois. I just don't know how you devote the two years or three years to the time of running for the presidency that seems to take these days and can still be a sitting governor. I've wondered particularly about that in watching what Mario Cuomo is doing in New York how he could be governor of New York and run for prez in the same time I don't know talk. Well I will say that the governor is being a little careful about the position of governorship but I my opinion is the pendulum is switching we've seen a number of United States senators particularly Democratic side want to run and feel like they should run for president and they've been resoundingly defeated in most

cases. There are some people that are now going back to like Teddy Roosevelt and others that campaigned for president very easily from New York governorship Reagan certainly did it from California. I'm making a bet that we're going to see more gubernatorial input into this primary presidential primary season 88 than we're we're currently seeing now. What does it say governor about a system that makes you make a statement like you just did that you're not sure whether it's three years. Are we taking governors of major American States out of the running. So Howard Baker got out to Iran are we saying in effect that people like you can't run for the pro-life. I think that's probably right. And I don't disagree a little here. If you look at the history of governors running for president in the past. Those governors rayon in an era of American politics when the party was much stronger than it is today. When Party leaders nationally had much more to say about who the convention nominated than they do

today Teddy Roosevelt could run for national office. Others governors in both parties could run for national office because they wouldn't get opposition at home if I left Illinois. And when you know what I want to start campaigning in the Caucasus presidential race where they'd stand up in my Illinois legislature and say well where's the governor. Where is he today we've got this terrible problem to solve here at home he's out stay in some Holiday Inn in some state running for president when we when we need him. They didn't do those things. Well that is something that Romney didn't win and you know why he didn't do that back in the days when governors ran governors usually then served with legislatures or their own party I served with Democratic legislature and have for seven years and they wouldn't let me go hop skipping around the United States running for president in the primary system is much different today than it was then. One of the problems you got back home and we've alluded to it already is the farm economy. Right. Iowa suffers from the same malady. I just heard Mr. Town torrents say that if we don't

understand the farm vote I'm paraphrasing here any better in four years from now we're going to be in trouble I'm paraphrasing what you said. Is there anything that a governor can do is that beyond your control. It really is and I hate to say that because you don't like to think that the that you exhausted every possibility on behalf of a constituent group and behalf of the state but we have done everything that can be done from the state level to help our farmers and to help ag business. The reason why we're getting hurt in Illinois and I suspect and I will as well is that our exports which are our prime market for agricultural products are suffering because the dollar is too strong. So is our industry suffering because the dollar is too strong when caterpillar gets undercut in price by 25 30 percent by commensurate corporation. Then you will know it suffers the dollar's too strong because the deficit is too high and interest rates are too strong and so it all goes back to the to the deficit if we don't get the deficit down in states like Illinois and Iowa we're going to be consistent. It's not as

bad as it was under Carter but it's a lot worse than it could be if the deficit was down. But as a governor of a major state facing these kind of problems you describe what do you think of the proposal so far from Washington for getting that deficit. Well I think that with the Reagan tax proposal is but a first step I think most governors would endorse a so-called modified flat tax with most of the deductions and exclusions gone in fact I think the governors will take action at their February meeting in Washington to endorse a form of a modified flat rate tax plan were encouraged by Reagan's first step even if we don't agree with all of it somebody's got to take the lead in this. But I'll tell you what for my state. If I had to choose between the federal budget and all of its programs even some we like that produce a deficit of more than 200 billion dollars a year which absolutely is ruinous to my farm economy and to my industrial economy in Illinois. I'd rather have federal spending cut with the deficit going down so that

employment would rise in Illinois and then we'd have Illinois taxpayers working instead of on public assistance or unemployment compensation paying the taxes so we could choose in Illinois which of the old programs were so important they were to be kept with little or no resources or which ones we can afford to let go even if that means a shift examine the tax burden back to the state Absolutely because what's the point been sitting there in a state with high unemployment. With more than 10 percent of the population on public assistance a lot of people sitting on employment compensation and relying on programs from Washington which could end at any time with the Congress or President we need develop our own resources and the little guy what do you see public opinion swinging on this whole issue of the public ready to accept the increased tax burden used to get the deficit down. Well I find that we should address resumes to the government governors races coming up to since 96. And this whole idea of anti taxation and so forth we're seeing. At the same time most states trying very hard to increase the quality of

education and to do it within spendable limits and not increase taxes and I see the future of movement toward races being spun around the issues of education taxes and the reallocation from from the federal government but I think it's going to make governors races much more important in the future than we've seen in the past they are no longer administrative overseers they have to actually balance the educational quality and the tax quality together have an area that is that why the fact that you have to look at it I think that's right. If 86. Well I think that's right whether I run again or not I think education and how we pay for it to be the number one issue in Illinois is certain in the legislative session next year. Torrance in 1984 Ronald Reagan didn't offer the American people a specific plan and we kind of got these nice Coca-Cola ads about how great it was just like you're supposed to. Yeah. And OK but but. So what sort of mandate does he have from the American people for these tax plans that Secretary Reagan unveiled for some of these budget cuts that David Stockman has has unveiled that the administration is working on do you think it will. Do they think he's got any kind of mandate at all.

Author somebody quoted Jack Kennedy I don't know how accurate it was but a mandate of one vote is enough in politics. I think he does have a tax mandate of sorts he's got a strong leadership quality dimension that was far superior to Mondale in fact that drove most of the election a. Few weeks ago so if he can combine his leadership. Given plus the idea of the taxation and we looked at Connecticut where both houses change from Democrat to Republican not exactly on ideology that it on some tax issues and I think that Reagan does have both in terms of his own race and what he's seen out in the country a chance to really rewrite the system in terms of taxes and I think the people are prepared for the pain and the pleasure from that. Do you agree with that governor. I think so. The president was careful to say that if as a last resort which is a phrase that we all used during the campaign taxes had to be raised to bring the deficit down that he would consider raising taxes but that he refused to go to taxes as a first resort. As Mr. Mondale did which I think was not only a colossal political blunder but a colossal governmental blunder too if you go into office with the idea to raise taxes

you're dead from the start because the spenders will never sit still for cutting spending you've got to go in there and cut spending until it can't be cut anymore until it starts to hurt because spending is cut before you can get a constituency for raising taxes to keep those things that are most important. So I think if the president approaches it particularly I think if he approaches deficit reduction from the standpoint of a freeze. I mean you've got to have some kind of simple powerful message to selling the American people on what will be some pain for some interest group some pretty large in terms of deficit reduction if you go in there and just start cutting programs here and cutting programs there where the people defending the programs will pick you off and neutralize it if you go in and say OK folks in order to get this economy back in shape let's just freeze everything for a year. I think you have a chance at it. What are you going to say what are you saying to administration officials you know George Bush what are you what are you going to be saying about about this. You know a lot of dough but the rest of the government My message is simple. The president was a great president for four years. He did much better than Jimmy Carter. I think the Republican Senate has done a good job in the last four years. But

now we're at the we're at the cutting point in the future health of this nation depends on its economy and whether we can keep this growth period going I don't like this talk of a growth recession I don't understand what that means all I know is that too many unemployed and I think I know why we've got too many unemployed got too many employed because the federal deficit is too high interest rates are too high and the dollar is too strong. And I want the budget cut to get those down. Mr. Torrance you're going to be meeting with the Republican governors you mentioned a couple things that you're going to tell them what what sort of themes or messages will you be telling them about what they need to be doing for 86 and 88. We've already loaded in terms of the total right thematics you've got the key to education today and that's a given. I think we also have to be very aware of the so-called historical downturn and the incumbent parties. The opportunities you might see in the midterm election in the second term we've got to change the agenda in such a way that we're the aggressor ours were the proactive people we're not reacting to six years we're we're looking forward prospect away for the next two or four. The National Republican Party has a great chance and

maybe only for four or five years to take advantage of the Democrats being out position on taxes here episodically perhaps but in the last election. And secondly lay out a very active non status quo type of agenda. And if they can capture the imagination of the young people and carry them on through as well as having the so-called populist a conservative element like in that kind of approach we've got great opportunities in the next several years if we don't do that if Reagan goes to the farm too often and delegated too much authority out and as Jim says to me these issues are fought in Washington not out in the countryside. Republicans will be no different than I was an hour in 58. OK you've made. I'm I want to go the caterpillar initiation a boob overseeded we've had that kind of thing going on in Silicon Valley in California they've been moving to Taiwan is it something bigger than us and maybe the economic policies are so sure it's the changing of an industry and that's where you feel frustrated as frustrated as always being it is a changing of the status of America as a great power are we seeing the end of an

era when we're seeing the end of an area era of world dominance by U.S. technology and some in industry steel for example. The US Steel mills are among the least efficient and worst producers of the world class steel makers and what we've got to do to recover is to fight to protect our current share of the world market and convert to the State of the many mills. Even some of the first generation new steel mills. Even in countries like Japan for example are suffering a share in world market as third world countries leap ahead of them so we've got to move to new technologies and fight to preserve ourselves there. We've also got to get more foreign investment in the United States if we're going to share world market with foreign companies that we never had to share before. And we have to start thinking of sharing it with foreign companies whose jobs are located in the US rather than in Japan. Governor how much of your own destiny do you control in this process. You were active in trying to help out the situation International Harvester overbroad cities and I as I recall you saying you weren't sure there was much that

could be done. Aren't governors a really long for the ride. Well governors can't help I think in pursuing actively replacement jobs and making sure that their state's economy is is diversifying. You can't sit back and talk about the glories of farm implements a hundred years ago in the glories of steel 50 years ago if that's not what's out there these days for any state when they shut steel plants they shut in the sunbelt as well as in. Illinois leaving for Japan in the week to talk to seven Japanese companies about a greater investment in Illinois all those profits will go back to Japan but if the jobs that are making the product are in Peoria instead of in Tokyo Illinois is going to be better off. That's cooperation with Caterpillar is that what you're trying to them going to go to about seven I would take every job I can get. I want to follow up on one. Yes go ahead. Well it's going along for the ride. Keep in mind the American electorate today as we study it measure it they really want some strong characteristics and one of them is to explain what the heck is happening out there whether it's a world economy or it's and I want Kaname And secondly their governor and their president better be their person

protecting the interest of this country or the interest of Iowa first on the line not back in the back of the line and that's what a leader should do. I want to go back to politics with you Mr. Torres for one quick question is it is it a given the Republicans are going to lose the U.S. Senate in 1986. I don't buy that at all or not it's off you know first of all we hedged ourselves on a bit upsetting to how often in Kentucky winning the Scoop Jackson seat and that gave us two seats that we hadn't counted on Secondly if we can capture at least 85 percent 85 percent of the 22 senators that are up. We will control the Senate by George Bush's vote. Granted but it will be 50/50 I think we're going to control it but it will be hard as heck. Governor I was considering a state lottery. Now aside from all the money that they were annoyed with. Is it a good public policy or not if you had it to do over get in Illinois would you start one or not. Well I would if it started under the administration my predecessor but I I think highly of the Illinois lottery and it's moved from again played by poor black people trying

to get from poverty to a decent life to a mass form of entertainment which competes with other entertainment dollars in our state and brings in about a half a billion dollars net to our state government each year for schools and senior citizens and other things and I don't believe we'll lose that much traffic to Iowa lottery if one is an active or Missouri or Indiana. I think the states who offer the largest prizes eat each week will get the traffic it will go back and forth. They want to be good for both but one last quick question You supported John block to be secretary of agriculture in a story about that. No I'm not I think John's been a good sector of Agriculture and I'm glad the president asked him to remain and that was our last question we're out of time. Thank you very much for being our guest today Governor Thompson. And Mr. Torrance's pollster we back next week with the addition of a press. Until then for a panelist today John Connelly of Davie Upson I'm dien board. Stay tuned for take one good time. The.

Fireworks show to be a level record of the summer night though before the. Why. Oh. A. Major funding for this program was provided by friends of Iowa Public Television. Today the one paper boys are mysteriously abducted. Allegations of sexual abuse in Iowa's institutions. The babysitter is convicted for

locking children in boxes and still more allegations arise regarding abuse by those intrusted with the child's care. This is an epidemic. Any of you me ologist will tell you tonight we'll find out some of the problems MARGARET Yes faces in her work at youth shelter services and we'll learn from Tim Barber Lindstrom of the Department of Human Services. If Iowa's children are in jeopardy and what's being done about it. Good evening. Missing unwanted abused. Perhaps in norther Tom and Iowa's history has there been so much concern over children's well-being. In fact a recent poll in The Des Moines Register shows that 67 percent of adults believe that Iowa's children are less safe now than they were five years ago and nine out of 10 parents say they're more

strict and more cautious about the supervision of their children as a result of recent kidnappings and child abuse cases. Now while hindsight may not be important to the parents of some missing children for John Noreen Gosch the logical way to help others is by sharing their own experiences. Early Sunday morning on September 5th 1982 Johnny Gosch set out to deliver his papers. This is where he was last seen. At home the porchlight remains on 24 hours a day a symbol of the vigil the family keeps for John in the rain gosh the past 27 months have not been easy. With little or no prior information to go on the two began a crusade to find their son and alert a disbelieving public to the fact that child abduction could happen to anyone. It will bring out some of these facts about children being abused. Potential victims for abduction and molestation. We were shut

down everybody said to us well it doesn't happen in Iowa. I guess we're seeing the news reports now. All of a sudden. There the lid is lifting off of this problem here. People are getting. An affable sense of awareness. That they have the courage to speak out about it now. One of the problems say the gushes is that people know very little about the type of people who commit these crimes and are content to believe in the hypothetical stereotype that we're looking at highly educated people people with money. We're not looking at the dirty old man in the corner with a bag of candy today. That idea was echoed by John Reuben a nationally known expert on child abductions. We're looking for white middle class males possibly married possibly having children of their own. Probably college educated and or professionally trained. After lectures the guy presented a number of materials to teach parents and children how to minimize

the dangers of being abducted and explain what information parents should keep on hand to give police in the event of an abduction because the gushers have been outspoken about the way police have handled their case from the beginning. What they have accomplished has not been done without criticism. You know there have been people that have been very critical of us because we took a strong stand to try and find our boy. He is our flesh and blood. Our child. Others. Sets of parents they conveniently drop by the wayside in died of despair. Literally they never did fight the system. Most of the local people in Iowa don't know that. How many troops we need to Washington to work for their children. Most people I would. You know in the Des Moines area don't care. Of us. For our efforts. But if the situation were reversed and if it would have been their child taken would they have fought for everyone else's child. Only they had just died on the vine. When someone criticizes me to my face I just turn

around and ask them that. Would you would demean your child. But as tragic as abductions are they are only a small percent of the crimes committed against children. Child abuse has climbed steadily in recent years and experts say it has reached epidemic proportions. One hundred sixty seven hundred eleven cases were reported. In 1983 in the state. There were twenty three thousand twenty three thousand. This is an epidemic in the epidemiologist will tell you that sexual abuse is coming out the woodwork in some areas in this state. Fifty percent of those reported are now sexual abuse. But at the same stage in sexual abuse now as we were probably with physical abuse 10 to 15 years ago we dont know the extent of the problem but I can tell you that 10 percent of males and approximately 25 percent females will be sexually abused before they reach adulthood. And statistics indicate the trend will continue for the first six months of

1984 nearly eight thousand cases have been reported involving more than 12000 children. More than twelve hundred reports involved sexual abuse of which 50 percent were substantiated. The issue has become so prominent in the state that last week the first statewide Governor's Conference on children in jeopardy was held in Des Moines bringing experts in law enforcement human services education and legislation together to work collectively on finding solutions. And let's go over the rules if an adult wants to touch you in a way you think is wrong. What do you do. Prevention plays an important role in controlling child abuse and films aimed at educating children on how to avoid dangerous encounters with adults were presented. Many of these films are currently used throughout school systems in the state. Others felt that stronger measures need to be taken in the prosecution of child abusers.

In my opinion all sexual abuse perpetrators should go to jail. And there's ample research to show. That in the Geo read a program in California this is what is done and they have reduced recidivism to less than 1 percent. The prominence of missing children and child abuse in media reports has led some lawmakers to say that this will be the year of the child in terms of new laws to protect children. But media attention has led some to question the scope of the problem. With us tonight to help clarify what the problems are and what should be done to protect children are Margaret Hess prevention education director with the youth shelter services. And Tim Barber Lindstrom of the Child Protection Program of the Department of Human Services. The question tonight by Des Moines Register reporter Frank Santiago and by John McCormack of the Harris newspapers have you heard their reference to a poll and we've heard from comments about how much the perception of a

problem has grown very much what is the problem really that much worse. Or do we just know more about it not hearing more about it. I think the main thing is that we know more about the problem. You know for example the media attention that's been focused on on child abuse you can't pick up a newspaper on any given day without an article in the paper regarding child abuse and I think just the public awareness of what child abuse is that it does exist in your community is providing a better education system for individuals and we're receiving more reports as a result. But I gather you had knowledge of what's going on and it is just awareness well founded always about it all. Well I agree with him. I think that we do have a better reporting system in place. The public is more aware of the problem and more reports are being made but I would also like to emphasize

something that we're seeing through the clients that we work with youth in shelters services. We we really do believe some of the barriers in family structures have broken down because of militant families and some of the age old traditions and taboos that once were very strong in family structure are not there anymore. And we're wondering if that isn't part of the problem also. I wonder how do you define abuse what is it. Is that physical is it mental. Where is the dividing line and how far does the state say now this is a clear case or a suspected case of abuse and this is not. First of all in terms of the definitions of abuse it's a physical injury which occurs to a child by a person who is acting as a responsible caretaker for that child. For example in physical abuse it's a fairly cut and dried issue when we go out to investigate a case of physical abuse because there has to be a physical injury. Bruise or red mark for example the last more than

24 hours. Is a physical injury and would be indicative of physical abuse. For example when you get into sexual abuse and the denial of critical care or neglect issues gets a lot more difficult to substantiate those types of cases for example in sexual abuse there are 10 different categories of sexual abuse and sexual abuse in the first second third degree with serious acts with a child child prostitution and so forth. We tightened up those definitions Margaret is that one reason too that we're seeing a higher incidence of things that would pass before if we just parental supervision or child abuse. I think that's true and I do think there is a fine line between discipline and abuse. And I think people are understanding that you can't go over that line. And what the line is you know going overboard. I would get if it would help to handle discipline.

OK. I'm good. I don't believe I think that really the definition we're using in the state of Iowa is very as common sense to it. I really don't believe or in reading their family privacy area going back to a point you touched on me though and I think we'll get into it a little more later on but about the family breakdown it is neglect one form of abuse is simply the black Yes that is the definition of a certain And I don't mean just neglect but neglect to care for the child feeling of Wertenbaker wat it is only incidence of that. I feel there is and I I would like to refer to an A friend of mine who works with children in Meyer hall here in the morning

and she's in a foster grandmother and she told me once I'm working with children that these are our throwaway children and we are throwing away some children. Well I want to go back to the question that John the court really originally asked that goes back to that poll. Are you saying that children in Iowa are less safe do you agree with that perception and the public is reportedly I would pull our children in Iowa less safe now than they were five years ago. I don't know whether I can say exactly. I think in Iowa we are going through a stressful time. And I think that is causing some of the reporting that we're seeing. And just to get to the bottom of this are you did you also say that it's just better reporting for all of these stressful times making it worse. I think it's both. I would agree with that also I think some national studies have shown for example that states who keep track of of their child abuse reporting on county by

county basis for example they can attribute increases in reports of child abuse in those counties to the layoffs for example major employers within those counties so unemployment you know a lot of economic factors are there some other factors though to other than if we'd had full employment. Would child abuse still be increasing Do you think because of other social reasons. I would say so because there does seem to be a breakdown of the family unit for example we don't have the support systems available to modern families that we did say 50 years ago or so where you have the extended family the grandparents and aunts and uncles involved and that's not as common right. I wonder. I hear a lot about how foster parents have been abusing children. I don't recall what the statistics are but they vary and it's a great number. But these children have been left in the care of these people by the state. The state has a responsibility with us I would assume there. Why does

this happen and why do the foster parents abuse these children. Doesn't the state take any steps or measures to prevent something like this. I think in the area of abuse in the home placements particularly in foster care the figures that were quoted in raise regards to the Child Protection Study Committee report that was issued a few weeks ago the ratio when you talk about all children in foster care compared to the number of children in foster care who are abused is three times higher than that in the general population. Total numbers I believe there were 119 of 16000 were involved in foster care so the total numbers aren't that great. And I think what we're seeing as a result of that is. You know we have foster parents who are generally caring loving people. But they don't have the availability of a full support system in terms of coping with this child coming into their. Their home for example. I think Foster

parents have more contact with individuals in the system for example those caseworkers involved in other outside influences that probably increase the reporting of abuse within the state you find it has a difficulty in getting at the source of the problems in these individual cases of privacy laws. The attorneys representing clients etc.. In terms of substantiating the initial allegations of abuse I don't see that as being the least of our problems. When you get to the point for example. Where. You know it's it's a very serious physical abuse where possible criminal charges could be filed in sexual abuse cases. Many times there's a breakdown there because there's the parallel authority between the human services aspect in terms of the civil investigation of child abuse. And the criminal justice definitions in terms of what's needed for courtroom procedures.

And I go back to that fashion pack. QUESTION General Franks posed the question of whether perhaps he's too quick sometimes to farm kids out without without proper investigation. What about the other side of the coin. Because of the tradition of importance we attach to parental rights to our doing sometimes to take kids away from their natural parents when they should. They leave them in homes too long sometimes do you think. Well. I know a lot of people who work in this field feel. That. One of the most important things is to try to maintain a family so it's working at all. And I think the report of working with children you realize that regardless of how badly they have been they really still love that parent. So you don't want to make break up their family unit unless it's absolutely necessary. It would be my suggestion that the Department of Human Services look more towards their

client their client is the child. And look towards the best interest of that child. Which may or may not be living in their own home. We've been talking here about so I know about the question of the parent or a foster parent as the culprit. Now what about this call put out there prowling the streets that we should have opened the way bass to foster patches bass but have a look in the shadows. We are doing a very good job of that. Well I think that we're more aware in the state of Iowa than a lot of states would be because of the notoriety of the two missing paper boys. And I think that we are trying to do some things to be more accountable in our statistics along this line as far as a thumbnail sketch of who is that person out there lurking around frankly.

I don't have an answer on the other hand do you have a profile at all of the typical child abuse or not the child abductor but the child abuser Tim. Well of you know the typical child abuser in terms of the figures that we see. 70 percent of all the perpetrators in a child abuse cases. One of the biological parents talking about in terms of the child abuse definition children being abused by someone outside the parental unit usually it's the parent. So the number one would be the parrot. What else about that parrot might you be able to tell me in a profile of a child abuse case. Well we tend to see the majority of the individuals who come through the system are experiencing some sort of family stressors or health problems. Single family unit single family unit is another factor in receiving public assistance. Again you know I don't feel that that in itself is saying that the individuals who are experiencing economic problems are more likely to abuse their their

children. You know it does relate back to that stress factor the more stresses that are apparent in the family the greater the potential for abuse. FRANKLIN Well I think a reporter has been telling the story of the abuses at the institutions the government the school system has a tendency to protect the individuals involved the victims and the perpetrators. Don't you think that there's an overprotection here that is certain X access to records access to reports information that maybe the government is the state government and the government is being a little overly protective. I think in the area of for example relating back to the Child Protection Study Committee report that was issued. One area I think we probably have the greatest discussion and one of the hardest time coming up with recommendations is in the hallway or area of confidentiality and there is a very delicate balancing act between the family's right to privacy and the public's right to

know. And going a little further in terms of your question on institutional abuse for example abuse of the occurs in institutional facilities current child abuse laws is directed directly written to address abuse that occurs within a family unit. And you know one of the things that we have to struggle with is making that law fit the institutional environment. There are some different factors that need to be examined and looked at how far does government go in child abuse. How far should it go in child abuse saying protecting the public family. You know I I agree with what Margaret said earlier that. You know again this is another one of the recommendations from the study committee is that the emphasis on the system should be the protection of the child. You know for example. Child abuse was first introduced in criminal court or in the court system in the United States back in 1974 when they introduced laws that could be used to prevent

cruelty to animals to protect children. So it's a fairly recent phenomenon in terms of the child protection issue. John you know as you get kind of play devil's advocate and it's matter of protecting the child I get back to the question I we in danger of over emphasizing their civil I mean I can say I deny hysteria OK it's way and affect children adversely by spinning too much I mean I can remember from my childhood many many years from fairy tales I've had from from what happened to Little Red Riding-Hood and that you know the awful stories about children being stolen and children being abused by Warren and that kid is affected by this how are they affected by all these stories all this television and all this talk away. Are we in danger of all those children. I came up with it to question quite a lot from parents.

I asked that question in John Walsh. It was Adam's father and when he was here recently talking to the coalition privacy your children. And I said what do I tell parents you know they're worried about their children being scared. He said I would tell them. I would rather have my child scared and alive than dead. I do think that there are ways that we can make children aware of what they need to be aware of. And parents should be informed also and should be done together because it is really isn't there a difference of opinion though how do you go about doing that. Making children aware. It seems to me there are a lot of ideas but they don't seem they seem to be conflicting in many cases. How are we going to deal with something like this are we going to have the state or somebody say this is what you should do. I think that the best location for prevention efforts in education programs for children and for communities is in the community through existing resources.

You know the state can do whatever they want in terms of coming up with a new education program but at last it's initiated within a community you know by the community as a as are the communities capable of doing that. I mean we're talking about a rather complicated massive problem. Well yes they are. For example if I were a chapter for the national committee on prevention of child abuse has approximately 50 local councils on child abuse and neglect that have been initiated. Number of voluntary activities within the community to not only deal with with prevention of child abuse but to provide public education for example sex education in schools and teaching children that they have the right to control their own bodies the right to tell adults no if they don't agree with the type of touch that they're experiencing for example. Margaret you've been involved to correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you've been involved in this recent conference on children in jeopardy. That's right.

Where is that going to go and what's the future of that either going to be some legislative recommendations out of that there are going to be some suggested action steps that will come out of that conference and I think they will be written around the first of the year. As far as the I participated as an observer in the missing and children's section missing and runaway children section. We are going to be having a statewide conference on that in Ames on April 5th. Just missing children missing and runaway children. That is one step beyond what that one track was. And I think they're going to be many other study groups and legislative proposals that will come from that children in jeopardy because we've both seen obviously many cases of abuse. What do you do with people who abuse children in terms of our involvement. The investigation of abuse that 65 percent of all of the families that we investigate cases of abuse whether they're substantiated or not are involved in some type of

services. And there's really three three different levels of service as we see communities being involved in kind of a primary prevention effort in terms of some of the things I mentioned earlier. For those families where we do an investigation the investigation may determine that no abuse occurred but we can see that there is a potential in the family for abuse. Services are then offered to the family to alleviate that potential teach different discipline procedures within the family communication skills for example. When you say at the outset that a secular perpetrator should go to jail. I don't. Model that he was talking about. Has one of its premises. The criminal charges are filed in all cases. I do agree very strongly with that. First of all it tells the victim that they're not responsible for what they did they committed the act is the

one responsible. I agree with what Ken said I think that. One of the problems we seen in trying to prosecute in sexual abuse cases is that very often the very threat that the father will be sent to jail stops a child from killing with a G model. That person is not in the home. But he's still working he still contributing to the family and it isn't. I think it's a way we should look toward. But we are dealing with a mental health problem as well as these people. We have others and I don't necessarily agree that it's entirely a mental health problem. There are a number of perpetrators of sexual abuse. Offenses that are pedophiles and there is a mental health problem there. Years of therapy some therapist say that the never seen successful treatment lost a case. But I think in a number of incest U.S. families for

example it's not a mental health issue per se. It's a disease for example but it is something that can be worked with within the family. You know eliminated. So that doesn't occur again. One thing I hear continually is that of an abused child is the child of an abuser who was a child of an abuser. Is there really that thing passing on from generation to generation. Yes there is and you know if you grow up in an abusive family that's how you perceive how you're to deal with children. You may consider me to be abusive because I want to cut you off in mid-sentence there but we're hard up time. Thank you very much Margaret has said to him Barbara Lindstrom for being our guest today and I will Chris will be back next week with another edition. Until then for our panels today Frank said he I'll go and tell the court really I'm Dean broad now. Stay tuned for take one. Of the. Major funding for Iowa prize was provided by Rand Paul by what

public television.