Iowa Press; 1613; Prisons

If I were Press show 16:13 link 20 and 50 taped in air January 15th of eighty nine. Major funding for this program was provided by friends of Iowa Public Television. BI It was prisons are awkward to get past. Plus the governor sees it as a public safety issue. I was most serious offenders are currently serving just a quarter of their sentences. After years and years of this it's time to call a halt. Others see it differently. We want to throw more resources into into an area where we already know we're doing a bad job. So what we're going to do is make it a bad job

with a higher price tag doesn't make life sense making sense of Iowa's prison system. Tonight we explore the issues. What I look for. This is the Sunday January 15th edition of the press. Good evening. Earlier this week Governor Terry Branstad outlined his legislative priorities before the 73rd General Assembly of the Iowa legislature. And in his condition the state message on Tuesday will budget proposal. Governor Branstad called for expansion of the state's prison capacity. Chronic overcrowding at seven of 10 facilities in adult correction system in Iowa has resulted in shortened detentions for many prisoners and Iowa's criminal population according to the governor that has created a potential crisis in public safety. The governor's plan calls for adding three hundred eighty six beds at six locations in the system the cost is

more than nine million dollars. Now that request under consideration by the Iowa legislature has put the philosophy behind Iowa's criminal detention system back into the spotlight. And as Nancy Crowfoot explains it's a system that has its share of critics. Prisons do not teach people how to make valid decisions for themselves. In fact they teach people not to make decisions. People are in fact regimented in an institution like that to the point where it has a negative effect on their ability to function in the community. Once they're released private detective author a prison reform advocate and former prison ombudsman Rae Cornell is one of a number of critics who say the focus is wrong that additional money would be better spent not on bricks and mortar but on the causes of crime and rehabilitation. PAUL GROSS I'm as a critic as well but from a different angle. GROSS I'm as a lifelong adult corrections

specialist. He's been in the Iowa system for eight years and he sees crisis in the future. But we have no control who comes in or no control over who goes out. At the present time we are at that point where the motel is full. But the state law does not allow us to put a no vacancy sign on the door. A favorite target of critics of all persuasions is the state's maximum detention facility at Fort Madison. It's the oldest penitentiary west of the Mississippi. And for years it has shown wear and tear. The condition of the prison is one issue. Who ends up there and how long he stays there is another. According to gross time it's only those who fail in Iowa's community corrections environment parole and probation violators and the most serious of offenders who spent time at Fort Madison. That number is increasing. And corrections officials say the length of stay is not as long as it should be. It's a tough decision by the way to

say. Well. You should go to prison when we already don't have a bed for that person. And that and he knows that the people that are in prison are worse than the guy that just committed the new offense. It's a tough situation out there. And if there were sufficient beds available. Maybe the person on parole might get the message. That way if I commit another offense I might have to go back to prison. But according to reform minded critics of prison sentencing has not proven to be much of a deterrent to crime. Otherwise the prisons wouldn't be full form. The answer to prison reform in the definition of success in that area does not lie within the walls. It lies was what's happening with each of those individuals and that group of individuals one year after they're released. If they're working and producing if they're paying taxes and supporting their families then you've got prison reform.

Not until Cornell will not argue that prisons as we know them are not needed for public safety. And growth time is not about to argue the merits of more sophistication in rehabilitation programs. But the message from each is both urgent and clear. So we're at that point now that every facility is overcrowded. So we hope to bring that message to the legislature to let them know that each facility has a problem. And it's going to be at least 18 months to two years before that problem is solved. And we need help now through appropriations not only for food and clothing staffing treatment programs but we know we need to get serious about what we're going to do with the prisoners that we expect to come in the next two years. Why not sit down and say what exactly do we want and if we want punishment let's design of unity of institutional system not a problem. You know if we want treatment if we want to take the long view and I think the more intelligent compassionate view

we can do that too. Even if we concede that the solution is to crime and crime control are too complex for us to know at this time. What we do know is that the cost to taxpayers after conviction is enormous. Currently there are some 20000 Iowans in the Department of Corrections System 86 percent of whom are assigned to community based corrections that percentage is the highest in the nation. There are more than 3000 inmates spread across the state at nine minimum and medium security facilities and at Fort Madison. The price tag is growing. In 1985 adult corrections cost the Iowa Treasury some seventy one point two million dollars. And in fiscal 1989 that figure had grown to eighty four point four million dollars. The price tag is expected to go higher. And both the executive and legislative branches have studied the problems facing Iowa's adult corrections system. Joining us this evening are Gary Barr her the chairman of the Iowa Board of Corrections. That's a policy and advisory council to the Department of

Corrections and also joining us Representative Rolf Rosenberg of Ames He's a member of the Iowa House of Representatives Ways and Means and law enforcement and Judiciary committees. Representative Rosenberg is also a member of the corrections review task force joining our discussion Davey Upson political reporter with The Des Moines Register. And Mike Glover a legislative reporter with The Associated Press this revolver. We've talked through this before. The latest 10 million dollar program had 400 beds. Can you assure I wonder if this is not a 10 million dollar Band-Aid. It's going to be one more temporary fix for a prison system that needs an overhaul. Well I would say that if you look at the history of our prison system you'll find that our capacity or the number of people coming into our system has been on average about a seven percent increase a year. Griz and associates did a study in one thousand eighty and they had four scenarios for the penal system. And we our population in our penal system right now is under all those projections However they projected

4000 3000 depending on what scenario you look at into the mid 1990s at that point they figured it would level out because the prison crime age group. Feel they feel that their sentencing is 10 years behind their actual age level when they are committing most of the crimes that there's a lag time of 10 years. So they thought the population level out in the mid 90s. What I'm saying is I think if we build the capacity to meet those requirements in the mid 90s we won't be throwing our money away. So what we have is 10 Miller Band Aid to get us through the next few years. Oh I don't like to call it a Band-Aid I think it's a it's a good program it makes sense it is going to answer the problems that we face right now. And I think it will in the future. Mr. Rosenberg how much of this program is politics from the governor. You've got a conservative Republican governor who's coming off of the campaign that featured Willie Horton in which George Bush helped get himself elected to the White House by campaigning against a black prison inmate who escaped and committed some

crimes and I I have a sense from talking to politicians at the State House that a lot of this is nothing but politics that we're going to be a conservative Republican governor and we're going to. They come out as a Branstad administration argue for tough prisons and crackdowns and all that sort of thing is it. Do you sense any of that up there in any of this. Why I think some of it is politics because I think one of the attractions of our state is our low crime rate and we traditionally have had a low crime rate traditionally been in the bottom five or bottom 10 in this country in terms of states having low violent crime rates and all the various indices of crime. So on the one hand I think the governor should say come to Iowa people move back to Iowa. On the other hand when the governor starts raising questions about an increase in crime or whether we need to put on beds I think there is an element of politics to it. Nonetheless I still think it's appropriate for us to look at the overall needs of the criminal justice system and work to protect it. But May but in fact the Democrats do have a controlled legislature have to approve either what he's asked or something like that or you risk having a willy horton used against you in the

campaign trail. Isn't that true. You're right of the Willie Horton would not happen in the state of Iowa. That situation is not relevant to the state of Iowa. But you're right we're going to have to do something because of the political nature of it. We just want to make sure we spend the right amount of money just borrowing how much of this is politics. Well I would lesser voted Republican you're appointed by the Republican governor. How much of this is penal philosophy and how much of this is law and order politics. Well there's probably a combination but I think the best part of it is that it's providing for public safety I think we can make a very good case when you look at the number of people that have been committed and continue to be committed I would penal system has grown tremendously to where we're looking at right now in our system over 3000 inmates which is beyond design capacity of twenty nine hundred and you like to have as a professional administrator out there you'd like to have a 5 percent leeway in case there's problems you need to move prisoners around we don't have that luxury now. If you go to prison won't you fill it. But I'm saying that Well we it depends on the courts and the courts make the commitments that sooner or later will go to capacity but I still think you have to look at the

the census data says and the professionals that study corrections and the studies we had before tell us that 19 mid 90s were going to level out. But how to I'd like to ask both of you how do you get on top of this issue of. Punishment for says rehabilitation there's this never ending debate that goes on in the state over corrections philosophy What's it what Mr. Rosenberg what's been done to keep people out of these things to begin with. And what are you doing to get ahead of this game. But so we don't keep having Law and Order politics being played with people in terms of what kind of philosophy we want this one the reasons we created this corrections taskforce which is going to have some results or come the concerns are come will come back within the next week or two and some of the results are going to be provided to the legislature by next year. Some of that is going to be dependent upon whether or not we want to have a just desserts philosophy whether we want to have a punishment. I think we're going to be entering a third stage of sentencing in this country. We did have the rehabilitation in the 60s and 70s and then we hit the sort of law and order in the late 70s and 80s I think we're going to be entering into a new stage of

sentencing where you have some mixture of just desserts and incapacitation but you're going to have a return to some rehabilitation because I think you're going to see an increased emphasis on substance abuse and drug abuse programs. Do you agree with that Mr. Brown. How do you do on top of this corrections problem. I think it's a very difficult thing to get on top of because you're dealing with so many things that you can't control. You're dealing with changes in the legislature every two years possible Governor changes every once every four years changing directors of the corrections and philosophy change in sentencing my goodness look what we're looking at on the federal level in sentencing plus and I know what it's going to be. I don't see sentencing I guess being less strict than it is more liberal I see it becoming more conservative I guess I would disagree but hasn't that philosophy that we on tough sentences that we've had for maybe a decade now increasingly tougher sentences and mandatory sentences in which the legislature has really said this shall be the sentence for this crime and taking it out of the hands of the judge presiding at a specific trial. It doesn't seem to have

done anything does it. We're still feeling it hasn't acted as the tour it we're still filling the prisons. Mr. BOGARD Well of course we housed him OK we're going to get into the area of legislative priority here when it comes to sense I'm going to Mr. Rosenberg in a minute. OK but I would say you're you're on target. We're we're looking at mandatory minimums in our system right now 500 plus. That means there's 500 plus people that parole board can even look at. They're they're on mandatory minimum so they can't look at them for population relief if you want someone to look at that way. Representative Rosenberg what about that mandatory sentences don't seem to have been or tough sentences broad or don't seem to have been a deterrent. No because I think people have such show not just in our state but nationwide that probation or community services may provide as much a barrier as much success against recidivism then putting people inside institutions as well so I'm not sure that there is that connection between man and plugging in the law but if if if probation and if those sorts

of things do a better job why on earth is Legislature debating spending 10 million dollars to house more prisoners why she's spending more money where it is more good. Because one of the questions is is whether or not we have the right people inside the institutions inside the minimum medium and master institutions and whether or not there is some mismatch between the needs and the resources. And that's one of the things that I hope that the task force looks at and finds out that maybe there are some people that are in the institution that can be put out and commune corrections as we've gotten out. I was a taskforce what it Mr. Barr what it what is the prison philosophy of the state what is the corrections philosophy in this world now is there one philosophy is that we provide for public safety. That's the number one everybody's For that I mean but do we do that through rehabilitation or do that through punish we do it by both. It's a combination of incarceration for to keep that person out of society for a certain time and rehabilitation. And there's a big debate about rehabilitation whether you can rehabilitate a person or not. I mean that's another debate we get into. What I'm getting at Al that's a combination we believe that both of those things in our penal system we should try to provide for both.

But in what mix and even then do you give or do you give either philosophy an opportunity to work if you want to punish people. Why don't we go back to the death penalty in this state. Why do we go back to public execution if you want to rehabilitate him then Mr. Rosenberg. Why aren't you advocating more money for rehabilitation programs. It's almost as if there is no philosophy and nobody's getting given the money or to make either idea work. Well well you're right about one thing. You're right about that I think we're being too easy on substance abuse and drug abuse programs and stated why I don't think we've done a decent job of evaluating them other state agencies come and say we want a certain amount for our programs. We do consulting we do independent consulting whether it's DHS or the border regions. We say way saying we want independent consultants to evaluate independently whether what you're asking for is worthwhile legislature has a role to do this and I think one of the things we hope to get out of this taskforce is exactly that the substance abuse and and sex abuse programs where those programs are working inside the institution where maybe they could better work in community corrections facilities better work in hospitals which are doing

those not pleasant as a large sex abuse offender program substance abuse in a community based corrections and sex offender follow up and to me based Corrections is going on right now. The governor Mr. Barr's talked about this growing drug problem and I would you want a tough sort of. Punishment oriented correctional system. Should we go back the death penalty in the state. Is it time to a reactive death penalty and I would. Well I think for certain crimes that might be a time to look at it now if you're saying that's going to reduce our prison population I don't see that happening if you look at the states where they have the death penalty. They don't execute people for like 11 or 12 years in running so you're not look that's not going to be of population relief at all. Mr. Rosenberg Democrats should get rid of the death penalty 20 some years ago. But you know we have this drug problem some of the environment has changed many blacks are saying it's time to bring the death penalty. Will this legislature look at reenacting the death penalty. Well not if I have anything to say about it I appreciate with what Gary just said I think he's right I don't think the death penalty is

going to be proven to any kind of difference in sides in society if we want to do something we have to put more money and resources in the front end. So when you look at programs like at risk programs and some of those DHS programs and deal with some of the substance abuse programs back in the neighborhoods back in the community you want to prevent crimes from ever occurring in the first place. That's we're going to put money and I think that's one of the ways you can measure whether or not our legislature does a good like Mr. Barr. Well on the death penalty I guess I think that's a matter too you have to look about the situation in the case as justice. If you want to just pure justice level whether deterrence is another question. So I think you have to look at that that's a philosophy question of what do you think it's doing as a justice or as a deterrence might I think is justice. I'd like to get both of you to address this question see if you agree with this statement. Prisons are fundamentally a political question. The state government makes decisions based on what it perceived people want. People in Iowa want criminals to go away to jail for a long time. Go out of sight out of mind and they don't want to pay for very much. Is that basically the way you assess the climate here in the state Mr. Barr.

I think that people would be more than willing to pay the price if they understand the question I know when I've talked to groups of people and explain the penal system to the people as best I can. They have a better appreciation for what's going on. And I think I understand where their tax money is going and I think you could you could promote increased spending for corrections and people will be willing to pay for it. Mr. Rosenberg you think people are willing to sacrifice other programs like welfare education to pay for prisons. Well I think you hit the whole issue right on the not because I think people are willing to put more in for public safety that's really we're defining the issue would find the issue is public safety. And the issue's not just necessarily anymore bad you define the issue people want punishment putting people behind prisons as one form of punishment but there are other sorts of punished punishment as alternative forms of punishment. But when it starts cutting into alternative other things like human services or education. When people start saying that we are cutting off our nose to spite our face that we're going not doing anything about preventing crime occurring in the first place. People are going to say well we'll go along with a certain amount for public safety

but don't start cutting these other programs you've got to find 10 million dollars. You don't have a lot of spare money in your budget or 10 million dollars come from. Well the governor says that he's got the 10 million dollars up front the governor says he doesn't have and it is contingency I'm fairly certain that the governor has been his main budget. But I think what the Democrats are going to do and hopefully Republicans as well are going to take a look at some of the initial recommendations from the task force and analyze as to whether or what's the best way to spend that 10 million dollars maybe a couple that million dollars should go into increasing some of the beds and community services or minimum security maybe some of that money should be put into pilot projects innovative pilot projects for new ways of punishment or new ways of substance abuse treatment were evaluating new ways. Some of the ways that sexual abuse treatment I think people will go along with that more than just building more prisons. You've touched on community based corrections and I want to go back to the statistic that I cited earlier asked of our current 86 percent of all it was. Prison population now in a community based corrections system highest in the nation. Right. What is the

significance of that. Is that something we could be proud of what is it that we could be extremely proud of it because if you look at some of the other states around us you'd find that they have building programs that would put ours in what we're proposing and 9 million is just insignificant compared to some of them. The reason they have that problem. Some of the states are getting in just now to starting to have community based corrections programs trying to divert some people from the prison system and they're hopelessly behind. So I think we can be extremely proud of our CBC system in this state. But I want to caution everybody. We have had in the last I think was last year 61 percent of the people coming into our institutions were CBC quote failures they have been in CBC programs didn't succeed and that that number and percentage is growing and I think that's a sign that we need more space I think that's one thing we have in the institution. Do we have community based corrections in the state because we have an enlightened penal philosophy or

because we're too cheap to build jails. I think we have it because we have a light and penal posse policy and it started with The Des Moines Register by the way back in the early 70s and there were private citizens that promoted that program and the legislature grabbed it and perm and promoted and made in the last year or so I call that in light and you're saying 60 percent of the people that you want to put behind bars are people who failed in that community based corrections program no 61 percent who did fail that CBC program are now coming into our system why is that such a great program. WEISS Well I base kharaj and I know great if there if that many people are failing in it. Well because I think because we've had a prison cap and because we've artificially kept the institution it's down in population. The CBC people have dealt with people I think that I think that are more difficult and tougher to handle that we probably should be an institution to put some bad bad risks out in the city in D.C. from how do you how do you miserable How do you plan for this problem. We look at all these demographic projections and 10 years ago there were certain things being forecast. No

one could have expected the crack epidemic. And there just wasn't anywhere on the charts our population the states must be getting older people moving out of those crime committing cohorts. How do you know that. Three hundred eighty some beds is enough. Too many. How do you how can you possibly know what the right thing is to do as a policy maker on this question. We can't possibly say for sure 100 percent this is what's going to happen within the Board of Corrections is going to need it in five or 10 years and whether or not the crime is going to go down and you don't know for sure but what you can do is gather as much information as possible. You know that you can do is just make sure that the Department of Corrections is doing the best job possible within its classification system. You can do that the Board of Parole is doing the best job possible that it's risk assessment and get someone from the outside to come in and say yes they are doing the best job possible. You know there are some problems within the system and we need to change where we're going back to the classification system. When the department became Department 83 there was an outside study done. And they look the classification system over and we've made modifications of that classification system to meet

that. Outside consultants recommendations. And now we have there's 4.5 percent of inmates in Iowa that aren't classified as maximum security. The rest are all minimum and medium. Mr. Barker in the plan this before the legislature right now comes out of the commission. I don't see any recommendation for beds Ed. at Fort Madison other than the prison farm. And none of it and most of their role at some of the outlying which we would consider less than maximum security prisons Why is that. Well because the lion's share of our need we feel is in medium security and as well if you look at our institutions the lion's share of eastern and there's very few of the sale of these in western Iowa other in Clarendon Rockwell City which we have proposed to add beds to. Mr. Rosenberg Mr. Barr We've had fun tonight kind of tossing around prison philosophy and correction systems and things like this let's let's take off that philosophical hat for a second and get a little bit more practical

account of that. What's going to happen this year. What is Legislature you serving going to pass. Well the legislature will increase bed space I hope the legislature puts the bed space into the areas that we need it the most in terms of the level of security whether it be minimum or community corrections I also hope the legislature takes a good look through this taskforce and that may not be this year but next year as to how the substance abuse how the sexual abuse programs are doing I think there's a lot of questions out there is whether those programs are working or not and if they aren't working we need to put money into programs where they are. I think the legislature is also going to do what other states are saying is that is try some pilot projects out a new way alternative forces of sentences. You know it's very controversial but things like electronic monitoring or house arrest are being experimented in other states other states who are looking to set up a prison plus a fee based on their resources based on financial resources and it's Minnesota and Washington doing its search that New Mexico Louisiana is a wide variety of states are doing this. I think we're going to move in

next to a stent looking at that really answer amount of resources we're going to set up a prison and sentencing policy based upon amount of resources. But the other thing we need to make sure is that the existing programs are doing their job. And the other thing I think we need to do is balance with providing the public safety with the front end needs of the system with the families and with the drug programs and the community is far. Who do you think we're going to get from this legislature and will it be enough. Well hopefully the thinking will get all the three hundred eighty six beds and for the very reasons I could follow a lot of what he said I would agree with. However we are doing electronic monitoring monitoring. We have for you to read usually Mr. Right yeah judicial districts that are doing it in the present requests of the legislature and the governor is that we increase that to more judicial districts intensive supervision we started that two years ago on community corrections. Now the plan is in the budget that all the districts would go into that program. I don't see I was

CBC program falling behind or being less creative than anybody else's. And beyond that I think that you'll find if you ask every one of those CBC directors out there whether they feel we need more institutional space they to a person say yes and I'll tell you in 1901 you've never heard that from them to put in vapors on criminals and help prevent crime. Well it's a way of tracking a person so you know where they are and you can you can hopefully keep them from committing the crime by knowing their whereabouts. So it's a way of keeping them out of a residential facility and community based corrections with 50 some bucks per day per inmate and putting in their house and putting a beeper on and control by knowing where they are and they have to check in periodically with their device. I might say that I have a beeper right now the sister time was. There someone who keeps track of that for us thank you very much Gary Barker and Ralph Rosenberg for being our guest tonight on I will crest next week and I will press a look at poverty in the

land of plenty I was growing problem with rural property for Dave Gibson and Mike Glover tonight. I'm Dean Borg thank you for joining us. Stay tuned. Morgan Helder and she has take one next. Good night. Major funding for Iowa press was provided by friends of Iowa

Public Television.