Behind the Walls; 1

Worth of. The Iowa State Penitentiary in Fort Madison claims to be the oldest penitentiary west of the Mississippi established in 1839 seven of its first 12 inmates escaped because the legislature failed to appropriate money for doors on the cells. This is the Iowa State Penitentiary today. It's now called a maximum security facility. And for many it's the last stop. To be fair it's come a long way from the dungeons of previous centuries. But as long as custody dominates and until treatment and rehabilitation become full fledged realities it is still by necessity a dungeon. The Ford is capable of housing fourteen hundred man ten years ago it did. Today there are 613 inmates 575 reside within the walls in four cell block units

55 live and work in the minimum security dorm adjacent to the prison employees number about 300 people 170 correctional officers 60 treatment personnel and about 70 more including administrators and support maintenance. By definition an institution tends to be a self-contained unit. Fort Madison has its own power plant water system industries farms hospital and food service preparation. There are vocational and academic schools a canteen auditorium chapels gym and recreational area a yard and its own newspaper. It is in essence a miniature city one which if you want to visit let alone live in. If it's true that governments reflect what the people want then prisons are a sad commentary on our values. Perhaps you don't care so maybe we can interest you in the fact that most inmates will return to live in society outside the walls. And in most cases they come out more bitter resentful and frustrated than when they went in. And if that doesn't bother

you maybe some simple economics will the Iowa State Penitentiary is only one part of the correctional program in Iowa. But it's the largest part of the 1973 74 budget for the Bureau of adult corrections was over 10 million dollars. Fort Madison represented 41 percent. It costs six thousand eight hundred dollars a year per inmate. Financially it's an expensive enterprise. There's a growing consensus outside and inside the walls. Staff and inmates alike that prisons do not work. They are not a deterrent to crime. Rather a college for criminals rehabilitation more often occurs in spite of prison programs rather than because of them. It's a contradiction to expect a controlled regimented environment to teach a man responsibility. The monotony of prison is debilitating for inmates and staff alike. It's a costly enterprise and human terms tonight and on future evenings we'll be going inside the prison with less packed reporter for the

Burlington Hawkeye. He'll be talking with staff and inmates and you may be surprised the men who live and work in Fort Madison are as unique and as human as any of us. We invite you to join us. Behind the walls. Continuing our discussions here at the Iowa State Penitentiary with inmates and staff people we have for you today have. A mixed panel to talk about the prison and what's happening down here. Starting on your left we have Al Ware who was an inmate serving a 25 year term for armed robbery out of Scott County Al. A resident of the minimum custody dormitory just outside the walls next to Alice Dick Adi who is the principal of the vocational school here at the prison. Robi Hilbert principal of the academic school we moved over to Paul hedge Beth who is deputy warden to Warden Luke Brewer.

Jack Langford who is in charge of the Iowa state industries here and Don realty who is prison treatment director. Among our comments that we've had down here over the past few days talking to a lot of inmates and a lot of staff people. One that has popped up I think more often than not certainly among the inmate population is that there's a strong feeling that they are required to be in a program to have any chance for parole. Al I might ask you to comment on this first what's your observation of this and we'll have some feedback from the staff here. Most new men when they come in are encouraged by their counselors to get into some kind of program an academic program or a vocational program or alcoholics maybe increase again the Alcoholics Anonymous thing. Most of the programs are pretty short sighted in that the counselors sometimes make promises that they can't fulfill and they don't really allow the inmate has bigger role in his

change that he should have to keep pretty a pretty tight grip on other programs there. Well just do the inmate in two years thinking you should. Take a guy that goes down to the vocational school. His counselor is in effect promised him a trade and a way out of this prison cycle. And. Unless he is very fortunate you'll get into a school that doesn't have a qualified instructor for you has it. It has a qualified instructor who is either lazy or not interested and the first thing that the guy discovers is that this course last 9 months he's not going learn anything he gets kind of apathetic about how he has to stick it out because on paper if he quits the school it looks like he he followed on the program. But actually that the administration has defaulted on the program before they ever started it.

More people in the academic school little kids in the school will get you or nothing out of it than the men who get what they're told to get out you know there's no one I don't need a vocation. This is the way to school if you sign a function if a man needs a vacation program he's assigned to the field this is part of this program you can my man does not need it. It's never been recommended for dismissal like the whole treatment program the way I see it he's only going to get out leaflets into it so if he goes down he doesn't climb self. I think we will tolerate this for even the length of time and the man is removed because he's not a mindset. However if he applied himself I think he has the opportunity to undersell the skill. These are cited but this is strictly going to be up to the individual. Are people applying themselves a vocational school became I would say a great percentage of marinara. I think it's true that there's a few inmates down there because they

feel they ought to be there. They don't want to participate but this takes a lot of finding out. It takes a while to really determine whether they're going to come around and say that this is a sellable skill for them on the outside so I would say we have a percentage down there is just doing time but this percentage is very few and it takes awhile for the inmates to maybe be motivated for work and for the staff instructor to find out he's not in any of them and would be removing your sign can you say definitely what made it work. There has been put to use on the outside. Oh I think definitely I think we have one area of occasionally department that is not equipped up to date and this is a printing department and we are aware of it and I think this is quite obvious to me if I would go through the area. We are anticipating going to offset equipment or phasing out the potential that this is a matter of kind of decide which way to go as far as the other areas as far as equipment I think we are as up to date as any school in the Midwest. Now we may not have as much but we do have some of each of your type of

partners who do you know of inmates who are of let's the institution of use the skills will be actually I received several phone calls from time to time by these inmates. Car just one thing or the other. Some of the inmates return for various reasons but they're sure your paychecks to have their receivers making five six dollars an hour for a welding trade they picked up your boss being a machinist trade electronics. I think it's just really like I said before what the inmate puts in is what he's going to get out of it. We've had a lot of inmates that went out and was killed when they left when they came in they had no sales skills. Well Al feels another inmate's I think that felt too from what comments they made to us that the promises have been made that haven't been kept or that there is a great deal of pressure to get a program of some kind if the man wants to be considered positively for a parole. How would you respond to that. Sure attempts are made to identify needs. Now human mind is such that.

Les I don't know why you're going to do any one specific thing at any one specific moment and probably pretty difficult for you to even you know say that I'm going to do this a certain time. I'll go along with OK. And that's true of trying to identify why does an inmate commit a crime and why does but let me rephrase this. Why does a citizen. Who has never been inside of an institution commit a crime. OK there are some things you might be able to measure. Given the fact that you have adequate reports coming from the community vocational training is one area that you might be able to measure. If he is unskilled if reports indicate he does not he cannot hold a job. All right I would say that you can measure that as a liability in this person's behavior and makeup. And if you can do something to overcome that liability you got one point in your favor. Academic training. How long ago

his and then were a high school education was necessary to get to a personal interview with Bill or you know you automatically kept you out before you even had the opportunity to sell yourself. You just didn't get through the door. If that can be measured again that can be a recommendation made it can be overcome. When you start getting into some of the problems of personality I think you're getting into much more subjective things I think you're getting into things which are much more difficult to measure to quantify or qualify as Mr Poker risk you would say to imperiously measure. And these obviously are left to a certain degree of judgment. And whenever one person makes a judgment which is going to involve another person there is obvious a certain amount of subjective thinking. Now you can be right all the time you can

even be wrong all of the time because even the guy makes mistakes all the time calls one right once in a while. And. I guess my point is is when you identify certain liabilities. And you make recommendations to overcome those liabilities. And these are a matter of record. You then can go up to the parole board and say this individual possess the ability before he came here and committed a crime. Now whether they had anything to do with the actual cause of the crime or not that would be up to you to decide to opt out of the side to me to decide if I committed a crime. What went on in your mind at the time what planning you did. You know that's something that has got to be done on on trust. If I was talking with Al or some inmate concerning you know why did you commit this crime. I'm not going to learn one thing about the reasoning behind this except for what I can measure from the community. If that man is not going to tell me the truth.

All right Don thank you. I want to scoot over to Robby now for a moment and move into the academic area just for a minute I'll talk about vocational but I think academic works in here just as well. Robi do you have any statistics on an average education of the inmates in here or something to that effect it in you know when a man comes in and if the average Dr. Knight around ninth grade might be a little bit where maybe between ninth and 10th getting him it's going up in the last few years when I came here 25 years ago it was down some a degree but it has come up. We still get the draw the school dropout the biggest percent or falls community or school dropouts. We are beginning to get more of the younger fellow. And they are beginning to commune with a little more of the high school completion to say from and was

then we used to get I don't see where we get all shook up here about the inmate. Criticizing our problems they had there are they have had other opportunities. Their end of the road road to come here a long time a been to Eldora and also other institutions whether shook up and when they get here because it was a place to go. I think our program learn vocational programs are going to be broadened our are good I think that and I visited some 15 16 other institutions and I'll compare it with the NEA there are programs here are as good as the ones I've been in have been in some big things but I just can't get that right. They can always be improved and I think basically of what I'm talking about that or vocational academic or basically

basically surround some educational programs and. I think that we have had a lot of photos of going out of vocational school and finished high school and our one is going to say we have had very few people that have got married every year when and then when we've had some good 30 40 years of college but we don't have as long as we used to go forward to finish it which is good really. I think you could offer some explanation on that what you yourself have done in terms of education here. I did get two years of college here and I can't fault the economic program too much but there are some obvious things that could be changed. They do a lot of babysitting up there they have a lot of guys assigned to the school. They're really just babysitting for because nobody wants to work with them. We are babysitting. So Al says but maybe him being

exposed to an area where you can learn work habits is going to be motivated enough and have enough self-confidence in himself that he has the ability to become a skilled craftsman in some area. Let's talk about motivation and Paul Hedgepeth I'll come over to you for a moment now it because you have an overall view of the prison. Is it easy to motivate men in this type of environment. Are you doing it you think as well as you can. It's kind of hard to motivate some of the guys that we do because they have been through all kinds of programs like Robi said most of them have. Somewhere along the way dropped out of a lot of things in public school and community and a few other things. And I I think you might be missing a point in that we might recommend as Al said the counselor might recommend whatever kind of program vocational academic or anything else. But the man may complete only one portion of what has been recommended for him but he wants to sell it and you know for parole.

And I think you have to look at the thing that nobody that I know of is saying that you give a guy a skilled trade and he automatically then becomes. Well enough adjusted to return to society there's a whole lot of other things that might be included in that. And just completing a vocation or an academic course is only one facet of many things. It's conduct in the institution a whole series of things that could be you know and they are considered as part of the total program before it's released. And those are some of things that a guy doesn't want to really face up to take a pick and choose a few things and complete them and try and sell that. That's probably what I'd do if I were doing time. I pressed my good point if I completed a program but I can't I'm sorry. I will say that I would be avoid the other kids five motivation is concerned I think it might have been.

Easier eight nine years ago when I came here to get people motivated. Some of the guys that are coming in today it's pretty difficult to reach them with anything. What really guided reasoning on what kind of guys are coming in today is that much different in a few years ago. Well it's different. Ten years ago a typical inmate was probably a thief you know. He went out and he stole something and. Maybe had a job. He picked up extra money stealing stuff and I think that the inmates now are probably a little bit younger probably more of the social outcast type of character than the. Criminal. And this is just an adjustment that the people who run the institutions have to make. They've got a different type of personality in here now. So they need a different approach.

And Jack you've been around here I think a year or two have you not comedy. No that's true. OK have you seen differences in that short period in particular near-EOP industries radical change. How would you describe it. Well I think for the most part that everybody has to have something to do to keep them busy I don't this is no good for anybody does maintain your interest in a prison or out just bad. So we had the industry's Invitational only sings you know inner industries we have people there to or maybe ship so to speak and they're there for a while they lose interest in what you're doing and they want to move on somewhere as we refer to it as job hopping and this is outside. Do we talk jobs I've been in and they have the same thing. And so then they get out of vocational for a while or going to work on a gang or some other thing and move on and want to go back in history again or some other shop. We do have some very good workers and sometimes we get in some skilled workers and

all of our people are not equal. Our foreign supervisors no one is we do have some that are pretty good skills yourselves you can train other people and command and you can learn to do this work and outside industry tells us that if we can just teach the man to come to work on time and work while he's there and stay there till the end but we'll take it from there. So this is going to work on time is another point we've heard some comments about life in the penitentiary is structured regimented a great deal there's a time to get up time to go eat time to go to work time for yard time to go back to the cell house for a count of six o'clock in the evening were more free period. And it's back into the cellars for the night. Is there some way that. Anyone's opinion here is or some way that more responsibility less regimentation can be brought into the penitentiary to make a man responsible for his own actions. Can it be done and should it be done. We'd like to jump on that one Al you have a thought on that first I think it could be done if

the administration wanted to give up some of the hold they have on a person. Outside it's you know they control what we read they control what we see. Control everything we do and it doesn't seem like nice but I think you'd really have a hell of a battle if you tried to convince him that they didn't have to blow those whistles on the yard to tell a guy it's time to go to work or ring those bells in this office in the morning to tell him it's time to get up. They want to incorporate these values into inmates outside. You want to make them they want to bring about some sort of change in the inmates so that when he gets outside he can handle these things responsibly. Things like going to work staying there for the hours. Stuff like that. I don't see how. Regimented everything they do fits in with that program.

I'd like to comment on one thing else that is controlling what they see. This is kind of interesting. Arcadian with partners just recently installed TV cables to the cell houses as of my last count they have sold two hundred forty seven TVs to the canteen. We have television sets that are bodily already assessed bought by the inmate and paid for by the inmate through our canteen which is always individual so I go in the individual self I think there's possibly 20 or 25 that's been installed at the outside on the story where Al is now resizes TVs in various places hospital kitchen gymnasium I believe I'm not just sure where but there's two hundred forty seven personal TV's been so i have no idea how many hundreds of radios been sold through the canteen. I'm not familiar with the library that much. I'm aware there is Playboy and here you see one occasion. So I really don't know what I was referring to as far as limit

into you know this type of freedom while the movies are checked. Well I'm occasionally a movie is scheduled and then canceled. I mean sometimes it's canceled by the distributor. Most of the time is probably cancelled by history or because it's unavailable who choose movies and news to show you need me to vote on a list that's given to him. I have this theory that lets just determine on the basis of a couple of things on cost. For one thing and also the movie industry themselves and talk read from long. I may be all wet in this fight. As I recall only allows certain films to be on this particular distribution docket if they are being shown in a a movie house and they're making a lot of money they they won't read. Remove them for that. Take your distribution we have a limited distribution and as such

we have a budgetary limitation to purchase them so the list is allocated by correctly is a restricted list. However I doubt very much if anybody could go get some of the more popular movies and sell the particular production companies will determine that they no longer are valuable in their normal markets in the community. Don I want to stay with you for a belief few people let me go on with this because I want to get back to the regimentation I want comments from you on structuring the blowing of the whistle in the times of the image as a response to the daily schedule. What do you think about it should it be changed Could it be change would it help. Why don't we all. It's interesting that out said that. I went to Riverview. With the warden missed your he went up there before me I went there in October 965 one that was a farm

Still whole functionality and we developed a release program there. The Riverview is your new right. Yes yes outside of New South of Newton. And then I went from there after about three years there to McGregor which is the Leicester Heights camp and both of these are total minimum security operations and came from there to the dormitory and around the dormitory when we had a sizable minimum security proper population 100 man and in the dawn here were Alice 75 man a farm one a work release house consisting of 20 people over what we call farm tools and it's quite ironical what Alice says about ringing bells to get up. I didn't do that. We did just the opposite and when we attempted to say you have to be to work on time the conservation truck pulls out here at 7:15 to go to cook. Record work at the hatchery.

It seemed to be an almost hassle to hold a person accountable for being ready to go to work at 7:15 when he was left to his own individuality to get up out of bed. And when I had the dormitory out here quite often I would get a man who didn't go to work he was supposed to be ready to go to work a pilot or some other place at eight o'clock. Everybody knew that the foreman checked the crew off at a certain time they departed and those who weren't ready were left of the dormitory and we talked to them as to their responsibilities for getting out of bed on time. So many of the arguments today many of the arguments I got was well nobody woke me up. Now I normally I'm a person I wake up pretty much at dawn. But if if I'm particularly tired make sure the room is dark. I wake up to a bell at my own choosing because I have responsibilities to be at a certain place at a certain time that

Belle's call my uncle on a new course could lose a job if you fail to show up on time at work because a number of warnings are what happens to the enemy who would not go to work in the instance that I talked with for example. We would talk with the illness to what his responsibilities were attitude that he displayed towards it efforts that he made in his own behalf to accept those responsibilities the first time when he would probably simply be talking to you know like we're doing now. The second time he would probably go to bed automatically after supper because he indicated he was too tired not to get up the next morning. Twice he had indicated that and continued non compliance with the responsibility would probably result in the same thing what would happen to me if I did this and I was constantly tardy and my employer talked to me about it and I did nothing about it.

He would fire me if I talked to an inmate in minimum security such as this and he continually disregarded it. I would probably have transferred him back into the walls. Which is exactly what you should do. Instead of reds men and everybody else for the few who don't get up in the morning or don't meet their schedules or something like that everybody at Oakville has a schedule. Everybody follows or salwar is OK over the case of the border security medical facility near I was there I was sitting on. That's a that's a real good ideal point and they also have a staff ratio of three to one and are running approximately 100 patients and they're not running a maximum security institution whereby what would happen if we didn't wake up the cups in the breakfast line wasn't ready to go or it was even so much as five minutes late. Can't no answer answer the question please some inmates would be minute. How many inmates would be now practically all of would you think that there would be cause for a riot.

Yeah it could be OK. So I think you some degree answer your own question. Let's move into the behavior modification program this is a thing we've kicked around the yard a lot of other places here while we've been down here. As I understand it essentially this comes from a man named Skinner and the idea is to take a look at a person's behavior and record it to find out what's objectionable and then try to change it by maybe changing the consequences of it so that there's some type of positive approach here so that the person in reaction a positive fashion and modifies his behavior. I've simplified it a great deal I think when you can argue with me on it. Bring in your other points but inmates I think generally are a little afraid of it. They're not sure what it's going to amount to. As far as it going to affect them and probably sell house 20 a major treatment unit they some of the comments have indicated that they look upon it as kind of a mind control brainwashing type of thing.

I think all of us have a tendency to fear the unknown and we really have not to that great degree developed what we are actually going to do in 20 in terms of behavior modification. There isn't going to be mind control. I mean I think that's so. Something out of context in a way how do you control one's mind. And you reframe to chemically for some other thing. I don't think I like any of my techniques get into mind control. Well as a psychologist for which he has explained it to us to a limited extent it will be attempting to modify a behavior and to do this as we understand the manual behavior recorded. If it's felt to be an improper behavior I'll attempt to show him that if by doing it a different way of behaving in a different manner then there will be some positive rewards in some fashion such as probably moving out of the cells back into the general population and eventually on up to the

dormitory and on into release. And so it's I think it's been compared to do a little bit of the Pavlovian principle of the dog salivates at the sound of the bell. Now the only thing is classical conditioning and behavior modification is probably closer to operant conditioning. Do you have the negative reinforcers for inappropriate behavior. Say a guy is always getting in fights or his temper gives him a problem so his He's negatively reinforced for this. It's like spanking a baby but that only works for a short term the only way it will be effective is for positive reinforcers. In other words instead of this man doing things which he has now learned is associated with unpleasantness like his temper he gets put in a cell locked up he'll do the alternative things which are associated with

rewards. I don't know how far south 20 is going to go with this either but I think it's going to be pretty short sighted in the respect that the man his his behavior is going to be modified it is mind control which is not saying there's anything wrong with my control. I wouldn't have my mind controlled if it's going to benefit me. But who judges that I would if it didn't have to be the psychologist whoever's in charge the thing would have to make a determination whether or not what he is doing with the patient is good for I don't know my support for him. But anyway getting back to the short sightedness of it. If all they're going to do as I was 20 is treat a person until he's able to function inside the prison walls which is an abnormal setting and. I think it's going to be a waste of money a waste of time. It's going to take a lot of inmates I'm

happy to go through it. It's it's going to be another case of the administration defaulting on one of its programs. Well I think. Number one it is shortsighted. It's designed to be short sighted. No one expects anybody to spend a lot of time over there with one or two exceptions. They both know who we're talking about. The majority of people going over there will hopefully not be there any great length of time they'll come out now going to the general population. And. Yeah they hopefully will go from that degree of security to the general population where they can maybe get some things together. But if that isn't the case then would you suggest an alternative way of coming right out of 20 and going to. The streets on parole. That would seem to be I wouldn't preclude it. All that would

seem to remove all of the efforts that corrections all over the United States has for the last 15 years done basically a gradual reintegration back. And this we hear all the time regularly from correctional officials and inmates throughout the federal system throughout the state system and throughout Iraq. In fact I think we can probably. Show this to be a reason when a person makes an application for work release or the minimum security that the inmate himself sets. I I need to go out and gradually go out from this degree security to this degree of freedom is so much of a shock. But I'm not going to happen. I agree with you. I would rather go out gradually In fact that's what I'm doing right now. But your point about shouldn't a man just be released from sauce 22 minute custody or parole or

something like that. I can dream up cases where you know hypothetical situations where a man was responding to treatment. That's probably the best thing for Mike and I can do better than dream up cases I know of cases that we have taken out of sow's 20 and put him in the dog door so the men who go there go down there they get. That's behavior modification too. They come back you can you take a guy that that's really screwing up all the time on the yard. Inmates probably don't care much for him the staff doesn't care much for him. He goes Oakdale. He comes back he's changed man you know in more cases than not. Some cases it doesn't seem to affect him much but as soon as I get back in the prison yard you can watch him digraphs. That's a good point almost daily. OK that bit of that is a good point. Now if we modify inmates behavior solves one. We should modify the prison yard. How do you do that. I don't know

anybody got any ideas on that one. Why why stick with something that's approval you. Well let me ask this on an hour and now we're getting to I think the Custer thing that sure would tear down prison walls. You know Why should Jews you know continue to do the thing in the yard and I guess I guess what you get down to is you've got to do something. Now I don't remember that we used to transport people from one place to the other on horseback and nobody went shot all the horses until there was a better means of transportation to replace that horse namely an automobile. But the horse got into where they were going. Yeah. And so this is the automobile This is the greater degree of speed and efficiency. This is the Dusun isn't as effective as the horse. This institution doesn't rehabilitate people. Well that comes down to I think what really will give you know what is the

alternative to what we presently have. We can't simply just say All right everybody goes home tonight we don't come back. We don't we can't just unlock all the cells there are dictates of society there are dictates of the courts. There are political realities of life. You know that this institution by design of society exist and they obviously support it because it's funded by tax dollars. To some degree. OK. That's a that's political reality of life. Now maybe there is a better way to do it. The media you are asked the question what is a better way. And you said you don't know limited alternative would be community backs and centers not for all people for the majority or for 80 90 percent. There are approximately I think six hundred and thirteen men at the penitentiary today as we record this program. How many of the 613

probably could be in some other supervised situation maybe on parole maybe in a halfway house maybe in a community correctional institution of some kind. How many really do not need to be confined behind these walls. Why do you think maybe about half of what I would say about 80 percent because there was a federal survey through it well more than 30 years ago I know eight or nine years ago that really only 20 percent of the inmates in the prisons had to be there if there were other alternatives. There's agreement here from an inmate and a staff member that probably from 20 percent to 50 percent of the inmates in this institution could be let out and some supervised program. What do you do with them. You keep them confined in a cell. Paul why don't we get to keep them confined in a cell but I think you have to recognize some realities that I don't know another solution for some of the people that we have other than simply to keep them in place like this

because apparently you're not making it in the society and society is not going to contend with I'm not going to put up with them. There are going to be in this institution on how long that that 50 percent or 20 percent as Ali refers to refer to it and I don't know if he the one I was at right on the figures I think you'd have to go on an individual case by case and do a lot of sorting to know for sure but I think you have to keep them here I don't know what he would not expect that all of that 50 percent would have to remain in this situation forever. I think some of them will you know progressed to a point where they can be released and probably by that time there will be a replacement coming for them unfortunately. You know that was really get down to what the warden calls the hardcore inmate that would leave less inmates and more staff people to work their programs with you know if the programs

worked. Those remaining few would probably. Some of them anyway would probably reach the point where they could get out the rest of me and try to look as I said to someone who would get out but I think some more would come back and you know he's going to live on that which I mean he's a monk. Well maybe not that maybe even a new one that spins in from someplace else that is not yet many in America today. They're trying to establish a halfway house around so to speak on behalf of any halfway houses so that many many not come here start with that now has to come here this is where me and Jack could live under some supervision. They could be paroled on the spot maybe or whatever the judge decides your ear. People involved and they're attempting to get to it I think they're talking about some 10 of them around the state but they didn't get the money to finance office courses that become public funds again. But it is progressing that way. And when this does come about certainly less men committed here

it will drain off because this is going to happen. When I came here eight nine years ago I think the count was about 12. ROGERS I wondered 50 and when wrote me Gilbert came 25 years ago I expect I had more than that today and it's been cut at our institution in about half and part of that has been because there have been programs developed to keep some of the people in the community probation from the court. More people were paroled in various kinds of things that's happened and that also by the way is a factor I think in something we discussed earlier with the type of inmate that we have. We used to get a man that might have been a good citizen quote unquote for 35 40 years and wrote a bad check some day and he usually bounced him down to Fort Madison and he wasn't much of a problem within the institution and got out pretty quickly and you know did all the things while he was here. And that kind of man today would very likely be left in the

community by the court and rightly so and would continue to do his bit toward supporting his family in this kind of thing. While he also satisfied the violation of one of society's rules and that has cut our population. In about half the eight years or so that I've been here and I anticipate that it will go down a bit more. I don't know what your point is with shirking about what it is a gradual total expansion of the total adult correctional system in Iowa has played a great factor in reducing this population when I came here in 1969 August to 69 and that's been less than four years ago. Our count was in excess of 900 0 in three years our count has dropped at a average of one. Now that there has been a lessening of

rigidity as far as time served on the pro-aborts part and this happened. Simply because we we did educate and Mr. Bell indicates this. And would bear this out that was a billet approved board yes that when we could tell him that a person was going to serve X number of months you know on this sentence. Then they started looking at their criteria and we couldn't believe what was it out. A guy had a second offense or someone again would probably do 30 months writing workshop. I mean it was common knowledge between inmates and staff and an automatic switch to an automatic situation when we presented this to the board and they started looking at some of their stuff and and he said hey you're right you know. Then they started getting to the point with time is no longer the only factor. Now this has been misconstrued I think a lot of fellas think the time is not a factor. Time is a factor time is a reality when a guy gets a 90 year sentence for second degree murder. You know and he's not going to be recommended for parole consideration 18 months

probably based on the degree of responsibility that sentence and time is a factor in those cases. But time used to be the factor and that has changed you know. And parole and probation has expanded again this is community services and I was the total correctional concept. Now if you want to look and focus on penitentiary by itself that's one thing. If you want to look at the x number of dollars that are available for the department social service to run a toll correctional program including probation parole all halfway houses the reformatory lost or hides the whole thing then I think one has to look at the number of people that are on probation or parole in a halfway house all over the state of Ohio and not just take a look at one particular institution. I want to touch a little more on the parole because of the main paramount interest of every inmate in here of course is getting out of this place and that's where the parole board does come into

play. Mark you stay on the parole board acts upon recommendations primarily from the staff in here as to when they should grant parole cruel borders. Three members are part time workers for the state of Ohio which is three citizens who serve in this capacity. Paul some comments from you briefly and I want some response from you on the functioning of the parole board. I just was really asked a pool board how they. I feel that if I think they do a pretty good job myself and I think they have gotten so that they are a little more liberal than I used to be with Manning of paroles and I think I've got a tough job I think we have a tough job of making recommendations about people and their job is equally as hard when they have to take our recommendations and. And still you know not parole the guy or parole him and it's something followed up by you know catch the Des Moines Register's RATH

And a few other newspapers as to why and you know there could be so short sighted as to prole that kind of a guy. I think they're doing pretty good job and our pros are not going to be as high a number as they used to be because we don't have as many people to pick from as we used to. Nor do we have the type that I told you it used to be real easy to pick a man the first offender. Get a few years owning things like that you could almost is nonstandard here so yes there is one that will come up in the regular time and be added to the list. I think you did a pretty good job. Now I know I know you cannot speak for ALL 613 many in here but some observations of your own about the parole system and what effect it plays upon them and how they react to it one way or the other what might go through their heads. It was a situation where the biggest complaint when a pro borderless comes back in generally is how did that guy get in for it when I've been here X number of months and I haven't seen a parole board.

The problem that operates on a six month initial interview where unless they changed in the last 6 years one board member talks to each new man after a day or six months. OK then that man never sees a parole board again until he gets a parole. It's already decided before even sees a parole board. We're going to give her. He doesn't have a chance to argue his case or present any information or things like this except through letters you know things like that. I think now that because the parole board is doing such a good job and they've got the institution population down they could begin early could resume talking to every man on a yearly basis like they used to elicit would give that they would go and it would give the man an opportunity to state his case and to get rid of the argument that how can I get a parole I can't ever talk to my greeting

on a person. It's just it seems like they go backwards. They'll take one step backwards one step forward. Used to be when you saw the parole board you didn't know if you got a parole for three weeks or a month. They would send a list back there was a period of anxiety where you are waiting to get my parole. And but in those days they did see every year. Then when they start telling you where you're going to get a parole right at the meeting they start seeing you every year. I think from a therapeutic standpoint that an inmate who can on a regular basis need interviewed by the three people or whatever the lawyers consist of in terms of number one on our street. And talk with him and confront the board and the board confronts you and may I I can see nothing but good coming from out of that. Type of relationship I can cannot think of any

negative effects. Now I do think it would probably require a full time work and I don't particularly want to offend the present board. I don't want the present board to get mad at comments that I made because I don't you know one any inmate to suffer from comments that I'm a soul that's why I'm very careful to say this is my personal opinion and. I think it would be good. I would you know tend that kid. But to do so would probably require a full time board but it didn't require a full plate of work 10 years ago when there were a thousand readers. The loss of almost 15. Yeah that's right I can't. That's the other point I was going to get at the border did not interview every inmate every year every midwife the mother did not they didn't know I was on the board. The board interviewed inmates

that were to be seen that time. Now when I was young we talked about 30 months and they had to go OK a board would set their time at the primary interview the board would you know this is the six month time call for report 30 months. OK at 18 months that man was not interviewed by the parole board. That man was interviewed by the parole board 13 months and then if he was not told exactly at that point whether he got a parole or not I mean he did have an interview van and he may not get credit. That may have been part of the transition. When I first started doing diving I think that you know I every inmate could know that his call that it was in say February and every February he was going to get a chance to board. There were there were exceptions several I planted where you go back further than I do because it was you know to go back through at least to have an inmate see this reward of whatever the organization might be if we are still ignorant that I always wear that as a as it stands now.

What used to Sion actually being the. What a surrogate for award. These people here who sit on the classification committee recommended for parole and stuff like that. They are in effect the ones who give you parole the parole board comes down and says Okay we're your problem is pretty much decided before the program because it's got an advantage in that the people at the institution who make these recommendations do get to know the inmates. But it's got a big disadvantage and that there's a tendency for the people who run the institution to use this as a lever to keep the institution running smooth. If so I don't know whether the disadvantage is greater than the advantage reliably. I think any time a decision is made can say anything at the most information and input

it can be applied to that decision is a is a good rational thought process and I think inputs and behavior of an individual over a year is certainly a far more valid decision than I want our interview or a 15 minute interview with three parole board members and I would be so naive as to think that you couldn't sit in front of any three very intelligent individuals convince them in 15 minutes that you were an angel. Oh yeah but going back to the yearly interview system wouldn't throw your recommendations out. Well then what are we talking about what's the difference if we make the recommendation. It gives a man a chance to talk for himself. Fine but if we give them. If we still make the recommendation based on performance don't you still feel that getting back what you just said that you know we use it as a lever when the recommendation still be valid when the lever still be there don't you think that the pro board would

still look at the man's performance over a year's period of time as opposed to how he presents himself in a 15 year interview. Sure but would take for example a man who probably can't make up their mind. That's a factor. That's an input and I agree with you already have a man with maybe a somewhat spotty record. Good points and a few bad point a factor and that is a factor which I agree upon with you. You know that is a nother input. But to say that in spite of a poor institutional recommendation which would be a fine would be several factors anyway that a interview would shoot down a year's performance. I don't think you'll ever see it happen and I don't know I would advocate that at all. There isn't anybody that can't be an angel for 15 minutes. Well I have I haven't said this to do that though.

I think you've implied that not all that how well that man Alice was in treatment programs not as great as we got to now when they did have the yearly interview before and I'm you know I'm I'm not acquainted with everything that went on but I'm certain that the counsellors gave recommendations to the prison staff gave recommendations and the parole board still talk to them. Well we've gone I think in a fairly good circle on isn't covered I think most of the points we were sold the full problem right here but leaving him some grit Jacki a little more input to others like it's better now than it was for the numbers that are being paroled in total that are another thing and you mention pretty here he's a liability to society actually ordered more than likely his family and children to work on one tab for the visuals or anybody else. I just got some more going to our own party just because you've heard of save money. Right. So everybody was triggers about the age of the cat.

Well gentlemen we've talked a lot about a great many subjects here. We haven't sold any problems I guess we really did intend to. We hope we didn't form some people and help them understand the prison situation a little bit better with some more input into this. I might ask as we swing around the table here one final time any closing comments any any particular thing you'd like to say to the people out there about a prison. Yeah State Penitentiary is only a part of the Bureau of adult corrections and that there are many many very liberal and progressive programs that are in existence and in the community corrections in you know Iowa and not to focus their total concept on corrections in Iowa on the basis of the Iowa State Penitentiary because I think it would be very unfounded and unfair. Thank you Jack. Well it's the first place I asked a pensioner just comprise the last 10 second place they're trying to fire personnel money. And so for the good to correct all those things just bring back people in society.

But it's OK Paul I think you might have something to say here. Well I think it's a tough business to be the keeper I think it's a tough business to be kept. You try to draw the line somewhere between the two and we want to we want them in penitentiary to. Get all the things that they logically can have. And I suppose the men oftentimes think that we're not. Not concerned about them and I think we've got a lot of men doing time that many of them that I know that are no longer here. To me. That they thought they did a good job they did the best they could but it's a tough job to be in prison it's a tough job to run a prison. And we get a lot of help from my 600 13 inmates and 300 staff and the whole state of Iowa. I was moved around. Robbie Gilbert less get more done before they get here let's get us to want to get.

Get to the penitentiary less doing and working more problems back. It was school when. I was young here we can get to it. We see anyone that's been in the school system can see so many problems coming up. You know way down in the second third or fourth grade when up through their lists most are working well back you're not going to get to our place. Make some changes in society out there first if we can already do it. I think the answer's not once they get here before they get here. I think this is where the money is going to have me stand. Society is going to have to realize that the obligation happens if you're a gauge in the local community. Once he had made a stand here. This is a different ballgame. He's made a big time and this is not what we're going to cut down the population here. Now where our first thought was to short the Palis question is too short to get into a lot of things. Don mentioned that this is only a

part of the correctional system and I think that people should be made aware that this is just one part they should be made aware the fact that it's the biggest part and that the biggest chunk of their tax dollars going for corrections is going for a white elephant. Wait.