Behind the Walls; 6

Why. Me. A demand date by the revelation ministers of the Church of the new song. Article 1. To live naturally and avoid loneliness which is the purpose of creation in 1070 in the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary the Church of the new song was founded. It was strongly resisted by the federal authorities and a court order was necessary to allow the meeting of church members within the prison walls. The church spread and reach the Iowa State Penitentiary at Fort Madison. Again it was resisted on the grounds that it was not a recognized religion outside the walls and because the administration feared it was merely a front for a disruptive and militant group members of the church took their case to court. And on July 24th 1973 Judge William S. Hansen U.S. district court ruled that the church members must be allowed to practice their religion. Officials at the Iowa State Penitentiary recognized the Church of the new song on August 1st

1973. Let's spec reporter for the Burlington Hawkeye talked with some members of the church shortly before Judge Hansen's decision on August 5th 1973. The church held its first free exercise seminar behind the walls. We're talking now to four inmates here at the Iowa state kind of tantric. About the Church of the new songs. On the left on the ground here is staked out the Polk County. When you're two and a half years next to me is John Kyl a Blackhawk out he's been here nine years. And moving over to your right on the bench we have. Rob Loney out of Scott County who's. Been in the fort for six years and. On the ground here on your right we have Mike grammar's out of Scott County but what I have here. In the Church of the new song I imagine doesn't mean much to many of our viewers.

Somebody would like to explain what is the church what is it trying to do. Started beginning Rob. Well the church was founded. He's very sorry. Land. Federal. Georgia. And it's called the. Church of the new songs. Of the class. It's not Christian although it's based on Christian theology. We considered. The. Basis of the class. To Francoise. To burst forth in a. Blazing light. And that's what we consider. Everything in the world can be. It can burst forth in a blazing light. I mean it's fun. Peace love. Understanding. The real communication.

Does the church have a spiritual leader or a teacher such a Christ. Man. No. No we believe in Jesus Christ. We don't look at him. Like Rob said it's like. Someone define. Just. A recognition. Like a psychic. Am I right in saying this the. Prophesies which has you know things come up. And interpret for us. But isn't such like such a more democratic situation where. Each hurdle which would

be like a church in Christianity is more democratic no one really runs things even then back. What's a comparable to the existing churches are it's closely closely analogous to the Unitarian. Church. It's different. You know it's only. Source like like oh. Well I suppose this church like any others it has to have some type of doctor you're supposed to follow. We have a doctrine. Not fully interpret it simply because it's a brand new. Person to say Christianity which is. Documented 2000 years. But. Our. Prophecies are being interpreted from the holy writ. St. James Version of the Bible. And. We just have different interpretations. To.

Christian. Like around here we just began to get started. When we greet each other it's letters to other people there in the church outside. We believe in peace. We actually mean. Making people I don't think. You know I mean it's just you know. It's

going to take time to. Convince people you know. How many inmates beat up members of the church are expressed quite of interest probably 200 is a conservative estimate 200 out of the approximate here coming outside. You have a Catholic Protestant chaplain here with a chapel the institution building here this. Is the relationship here. With people of the Church of spiritual existence. Their employees. Are part of the ministry ministration. Does not. Sanction this they. Don't. Our. Existence they don't. They don't agree with us. They don't work. They project the idea that we're simply another organization

trying to overthrow. Their system. What you are. You know it's been it's been said by. The Church of the former some former prisoners you know. That's not. Specifically exactly true of. Any type of. Organization. Any president ministration. Because. Then you have the prisoners rather than 600 individuals. This is what they're scared of. I mean it would be the same for everybody tonight. They would Korean overreact. That's. We're not. Trying to take over. You know. We're trying to do is improve. Conditions around here. We are frozen. It's automatic. We're going to.

Make it. Since you mention the Catholic chaplain. Father the Protestant chaplain Reverend Wright I'd like to mention that even last fall. I asked to. Talk to them they wouldn't talk to us about the church and they were afraid of us even to talk to us. Just one on one. Now it's changed somewhat where they will ask us to come up to some of their prayer meetings or study means and such like and we can verbalize some of the people that came up. But. There's still a problem involved in that. We're still a threat to him because like Rob mentioned they are employees of the state. Because their employees in the state. The father might want to do things for a person because he. Is. One of the Warden. He might not be able to do this. So. Instead of his religion coming first his subordinate to the warden. And because of this. Our church when we get it working right. Can meet the needs that he doesn't need.

Reverend Wright doesn't. Come first in the church of. Course in language will. Say. We have to. Help. He tells me he. Doesn't. Have a. Contemporary chaplain. For. Her. Course we have for. This very. Matter. Not surprising.

We've been talking about the church and I. Know. What's. Coming. But I believe in federal court. It has been recognized as a recognized. Federal prison. As a federal prison because. His order was prison. There have. Been against the law and his drawn injunction for that judge. I

felt what it felt. So they're delaying it too even though they know it's against the law to do so. But in Atlanta right now in some of the other federal penitentiaries they do meet officially they're provided with office. But still right now in segregation which amounts to a prison within a prison. What we've got to get a broader sense gentlemen what does the church represent. In terms of what does it mean to prison in prison for them just. AS. It is the respect that recognizes a person's right is individual. And I think you're saying the. Present prison system isn't right that what you're saying the system or the religions know the system. Will. Correspond to the penal system to the Church of the new song simply because they want to.

They want they would like us to where I hear the same way that everybody else wears the ones with the same clones. They want us to speak. They want to. Count. They would like to go back to a lockstep system. Everybody left right left right. We want Turner money and will. And that is definitely contrary to. The Church. I would like. To. Because I think it's very important is. The official policy has been here and is now. If you asked the deputy warden Mr. hedge path and he asked the warden to say that officially the policy is every man to his own time. Get your time done. Get in the programs forget about your fellow man. If your fellow man is continually getting in trouble don't worry about him look out for yourself. Well. We go against this we're saying that if there's people in need. And they can help each other which of speed has a problem I'll try to help them if I have a problem. I'll try to help them. Main

religion which is very difficult. Actually we're going to. Think we're going to. If they lock up one of our members who are told not to be. There's a man in here like. There's an old man in your name. He he tries hard for that person. Their concern was. For them which was. Not a threat physically he just was so they locked him in. It took one of our members to go and tell that man under me after martial somebody. Another inmate was watching over

the. Prisoner. Is not a little bit of a different way of thinking right out of penitentiary. Another. Just. Strays off. To. Inmates working. But would like to see them come up to voluntarily to the prison. It wasn't their right to come in with us for more input into these things so we could write anytime that we shall concern. It means we're not doing time. Then they make out like we're trying to do somebody else's time. And this to them is wrong. Because.

This is just. A different time different. Business going to be interpreted sided weakness. On their part or on her part on other inmates part concerning. Your not showing concern for other people. The thing about guys talking. And I was always shanks in their pockets. And. Having absolutely no emotions no feeling showing no sympathy thinking. Maybe 50 years maybe 20 years. Maybe it was true. But. Today in this penitentiary. That isn't true. Everybody has their trials and if they don't have friends they won't. And. These are the people we're talking about these people that are. Maybe a little flaky upstairs. It's because of their and their mental derangement or deficiency. That. They don't have. This is what we're trying to.

Project to them as a friend. I mean that's what friendship is all. That. Part of our purpose right here is to find out about this type of thing. But we also brought this up one time to one of the governor's aides down here Mr. hedge about this was brought up in this context about doing your own time and things like this. And we mentioned to him at that time that. If we went with their philosophy of do your old time don't care about the other guy you know. If we fulfill this and in our own time. How would we become human when we got outside. I mean wouldn't we still continue with this you know snarling at people. Don't bother with your neighbors and things like this directly when we go outside if we don't aren't able to practice it while we're here. Well if a point was made just this morning on. The non involvement. Of. The inmates in here. I mean some of us didn't want to come on this program.

Simply because it was a few people that were filming this morning. That. Some people online. Some of the guys were saying Well to hell with it we don't really believe some of the people that were interviewed this morning that there would. Be an accurate portrayal. So some of the guys didn't want to become involved in the later on. But that's exactly. What Dave was saying. But doing your own time the administration would like us each individually to do our individual to. Show no concern for our community and we have a community. And. That way we can be. Jailed. By ourselves. No one. No one knocking on the door when somebody gets locked up. With no one listening to the warden. Or running a petition around when someone is unjustly slammed. He doesn't have to worry about it get around to his own sweet time and. There is absolutely no.

Community involved. Did you know there's a lot that needs to be changed here in this prison on. Some of these others. Some of these guys are here this morning. We thought. It was a lose man. And. I'm not. Going to happen. Just because you don't read the paper every day that you know there's a riot or. Guards being held as hostages. This shouldn't fly. There's nothing wrong here that everything is going fine. I'd like to bring up some. Things here that are wrong person. Need to be changed. AS. Far as I can see that's not been done long. Ago. Not one thing. Just one thing they say is. Because we belong to the church we should stay on church things. But. First in the Bronx a Catholic church outside doesn't divorce his interest in a community's problem

whether church related or not. So because we are all church members of the church and no song we aren't going to divorce ourselves from the other problems right here. That they might think are unconnected with the church. We still have a deep interest in it and we think that maybe. Through the church we could help solve them. But whether we can help solve it with a church or not here we're interested in them and that's our problem here. Yes. Oh no problem. Number one. It's. The Cold War. Example. And there are many other men who year after year. Surprisingly the. Last four years.

I'm sure this looks good on paper but it's the same for all. Of us. This present was really. Just keep coming back. Down the average time that a man spent. Time in or near the river. They've done. Roles. Roles as you know. They never see the cold war. You know. My make a recommendation. People. Here. Can you. Maybe a hundred guys in 20.

People here. Brought up the fact. That. A hundred jackets. Go into these jackets by the board. It comes down to you know you want to try to get your and this was actually written and went to Des Moines but you don't know for sure. You know. That's really good you know. Here For. Three days every two months. That's a relative part time job like Van. We talked about the whole system you were talking earlier related to

the church or any other area we should go with that. There are there's a noticeable shortage of any qualified instructors down there. Let me interrupt you one thing in this the college program with the present separate college program presentations for the college courses are very good. Like for example prison print shop. They don't even have an instructor. I mean that's all. You know everything. Started Well it. Seems. To go.

Right here. I think this is very unfair but. I mean if this class is really good to get a role there and it gets out there doesn't mean anything. I think it's very unfair to get this straight. Entire there's no production here at all.

There's no production demand of the inmates that are employed in different assignments. Practically any. Shopping here that employs a 15 man and three man could do twice the work is being put out. Because there is no incentive to present has been defined. Along these lines. Down there in management. Man down man to man management is the man. Decided on the tax. Code that's costing $6000. Are you people. Just give us a five or six. You're only maybe most of us. I like to say that it is beautiful in a way for the warden and the staff because it was brought out even to various people that came here like even the TV crew. The man that came in here

on the bottom of the ladder they've already went through the process they want to hear. So why should we have a big outlay of money for funds for these. I'm saying it's beautiful for the staff to have this space. They don't have to do anything with that. Basic to work with. We already started back here that's impossible. To do is manage your day because this is the last step in the legal system. To bring up that. They're not going to have to go to the original Correctional. Agencies within the community. There have been drug abuse centers here now they're here now. They never had to. Talk about here in a short period of time. Thank you for all of your input here.

Last question I'm going to ask Are you ready to go. If you feel like you're ready. I mean. Every. Life spent. 11 years. Or. 13 will probably just go back to. Selling drugs. Rob thank you very much. Like what you say to go out. I think it's. About. That. Question. For. You an answer to the. Same problem.

I won't be leaving here for a while. There's only just two and a half years you know point five. The last time maybe six fifteen so we could be unrealistic for me to look like you know now. But still I think I could make it right now. Laid out and I could get involved in. Something I was interested. So social service get him excited. We need more members also. Working. One of the things we're going to get and this is another reason why you don't like it is we're going to have people coming in to help us with this jury. But we also need men that are leaving here that are church conscious of archery. The other church that will remember the man when they get out they're back here they need to go. OK we started with the church. You know that's the way it will in the day. I can tell. Thanks much.

Check it out. Oh.