Eyes on the Prize II; Interview with Dr. Betty Shabazz

10-0-03, team A, sound 102. Dr. Shibaraz, what should young black people know about Malcolm that we don't already know? What does this look like to see? What should young people know about Malcolm? I think one of the most important things in view of contemporary society that they should know about his internal strength and discipline. Understand that a lot of people can climb the mountains and deal with people on a very affluent level but don't understand what is happening in the valleys. And that if they are going to be future leaders, that people are going to have to understand the diversity of people, ethnicity, political, religious.

And if you really look at our society today, you find the Baptist preaching to the Baptist and the Methodist preaching to the Methodist and the Buddhists and the Muslims to the Muslims. I think religion will have to cross those various lines and deal with people on an ecumenical basis or level. And I think that people will have to put humanity above the power of politics. We need to understand the struggles, the whole situation of struggle, as I said before, the challenges and the resources that face people not just in America, not just next door but all over the world. Have people in such conflict for power that they will level a country, neighborhoods, civilians, regardless, women and children and old men and old women for that power.

That we are going to have to come together as people and understand that whole humanitarian dilemma and understand where and the importance of power. So that I think Malcolm had conquered all of that and was moving towards those extreme ends that have our country and the world as a matter of fact, so divided today, that I think it would be important for young people to understand all of that and know that the answers are here on Earth. The answers are within our grips, but if we don't have the internal fortitude or internal strength or integrity, a loyalty to ourselves and other human beings that we might go to sleep and not wake up as a world people.

And I think if young people understood that and the fact that they have a responsibility to deal with themselves and find answers to those challenges that confront us all and I might say getting worse. When was the first time I saw him speak? Because that was a newspaper he started a newspaper. Well, the first time I saw him speak I was a student and had gone to the mosque with a friend. And I thought that what he had to say was important and had a lot of validity. I had not been accustomed to his kind of phrasing, his kind of clarity, his kind of openness.

But surely something was going to happen drastically because I was reared by my folks were Methodists and we lived a very limited kind of lifestyle. It was church and school and work and committee meetings and that sort of thing. I could appreciate and follow his talking about the world, various places on earth but his openness and his inclusion of the African diaspora as part of all of this was a bit new to me. I was in lightning, enjoyable, like hey, I am in this picture after all. I am not an appendage, I am not part of the vegan class, the welfare class.

I was reared to think that but once you leave home and you are exposed to the broader society, you begin to think that your very existence is perhaps not welcomed. And so that it was a delightful meeting and I enjoyed meeting and obviously. How did you learn from that? Well, at that particular time, he was talking about togetherness and he was talking about Elijah Muhammad, who my parents knew in Detroit, Michigan. The terms were not so favorable but of course I just interpreted that as the lack of understanding of my parents.

But he was involved in raising funds to take Elijah Muhammad's sons from their various jobs, non-professional jobs to have them work with the father. He spearheaded a drive that would provide enough money for their salaries. And of course, his whole philosophy was rooted in history. Malcolm was the son of a Baptist minister and his father was a Gaviite. And of course you know at that particular time it was not the thing to do to be a Gaviite. And so that he would use to explain not only the religious sense but a historical sense of our people to explain the need for this or that.

So that he explained in not only religious terms but historical terms of why it was necessary for Elijah Muhammad's sons to leave those medial jobs and work with the father to be more helpful because the nation was growing. And I might add that Malcolm was directly responsible for that growth. When my husband got out of prison Elijah Muhammad had six mosques and populated by older members. And even Elijah Muhammad said in Philadelphia before my husband was exposed from the movement that he was he single handedly was responsible for the growth. And at that particular time that the nation of Islam had mosque in every major city in the United States.

So that he explained his explanation to me was new because usually people dealt with the Bible and kind of left it at that level. How was he different? We have always changed my business. 10.04. What was different was that Malcolm not only dealt with the Christian Bible which most of us were familiar with. And most people in this country are familiar with but he also dealt with the Quran and he also dealt from a historical perspective.

And as a matter of fact I was appeared in New York time through a minister who was named Henry at that particular time. I believe he died and I hope God have mercy on his soul. And this interview it said that Elijah Muhammad said that the blackness that was brought into the nation of Islam was brought in by Malcolm and it was never intended. But you have to understand that Malcolm's father was a Gaviite and he remembered that and it could have been an ode to his father. How was he different from the private man? Well I don't know if he was really different in the sense. I would say that he smiled a lot in private. He was very gentle and understanding yet firm with his children. I found him an excellent husband but I guess his long years in prison and then getting into the religion he was extremely disciplined.

And sometimes it was just no let up, just kind of all business. Could I do what? What how disciplined he was? Well he was extremely disciplined. It was just unbelievable. He said five prayers a day without fail. He used to write me from various parts of the world to say to me that please pray sometime and I wrote him a letter back. Very quickly and I said if you do your job I won't have to pray at all. Which was probably what I should not have done but I just thought I would do that.

But he was a very disciplined man and he could read the average difficult book in three hours, four hours. He just did a lot of things. It's just really a remarkable person. After this explosion what changes did you notice in time? Well he behaved the same way he was goal oriented. And he decided that this was the time for him to travel, to do some research, to find out some answers for himself. He had at one particular time been very disappointed not only in the movement but in the leadership. That a lot of things that he had heard even when he first entered the movement that there was a possibility that they were true.

The reason that the leader was run from Michigan that various people showed him pictures and talked and cried about what had happened. So that he felt that the movement was a good movement. The structure was good. That one needed to be disciplined and more caring about people. But that he needed to do some research so that he was invited to the summit conference. The first time that a black American had been so honored to come to the summit conference and represent black people in America. And of course he traveled throughout Africa and the Middle East and part of Asia and made some startling discoveries.

And of course at that particular time there was a lot of things going on in this country and one of them was the irritation in this country by decision makers that he should not have been allowed to travel that far and not knowing that he was going to meet the kind of people that he met. And so then they started gathering forces to anoint a leader that would supersede him. So that was of course in the American papers that they had a poll that said he was not a leader thought well of and that other people were much more popular with the people. And then we got a call one day that said that someone was going to get a grand prize you know and it was an attempt to set leadership not only against him but above him that what he was doing was not appreciated by his own people and this that and the other.

I don't really know if Malcolm's original agenda from the knee of his father ever changed actually. He perhaps was able to discuss it more openly and intellectually in the time that I met him he said freedom by whatever means necessary to bring about a society where people of African descent or recognize and treated as human beings. Regardless the way they lived you know as long as it was on earth and if you really understand that and a lot of people defined it perhaps negatively they talked about militancy but it wasn't really militancy in a negative sense it was the internal strength.

The fact that I'm a human being his whole notion of changing the civil rights struggle to one of human rights that if you changed it to a human rights struggle you would have your civil rights and that you would have more support. And of course when he came back from Africa a lot of the leaders felt that his thrust was wrong that he had no business in Africa he had no business in the Middle East he had no business in Asia seeking support he should concentrate his time in Mississippi. And of course I think now retrospectively that his analysis was correct that of human rights and of course different nations are cited for human rights violations.

But black people are still abused and ours is still in the realm of discrimination and civil rights and it really needs to be taken to a higher level. So that I think his analysis was correct I think that people or I should say decision makers at the time I'm sure that they recognize that there was a great deal of validity to what he was saying and just wanted a little more time to get a lot of things in order. I can remember when they were really criticizing him severely for wanting to change it to a human rights struggle that Arthur Goldberg threatened to take Russia to the world court at that particular time for just the 3 million Jews in Russia because they have human rights violation. And I thought it was remarkable it was honorable I mean that's as a leader that's really what he should have done for his people and but I also thought Malcolm was correct to take to discuss the whole possibility of taking this country to the world court the UN where such items are discussed.

For its maltreatment of the more than 22 million at that particular time black people and of course he was demonic and all of the bad names that could be thought of but I think that that he was correct. Can you share with me the story of the family and ten all five. Well I don't know if I really have any Malcolm X stories or not I just know from from reality that he contributed personally to the

caring for three or four families because he did not take the time to really counsel the men in the family they felt they couldn't work for white people because they were you know racist and and this that the other. And he said he would say to me every time of the week when I was to get my allowance along with the children's nursery money and the food money and he would say as soon as I get time I am going to counsel. The brothers I'm going to get them all together because I know you would like to do more things you know like go shopping right. And somehow he never got around to it and after his assassination I could be walking down the street and I would see one and they would cross on the other side of the street.

And I guess it must have been maybe about five years ago I saw a brother you know who was one of them who apologized for his lack of strength. And I said to him that money is not everything you know you can encourage people or be around people or whatever but it was that he needed at that point for someone to be around him. And I think of all the people that helped me in my own survival of will that I often think of him and smile. I don't know if that's a Malcolm X story or not but it's a part of history and it was something that was real.

The last days of his life. I can't. Was that changing? Well yes that was a change only in developing or mining out the rough spots of his new morphology that you know number one a lot of people wanted him to come to their country to help to advise. He was in Europe on my way to Hodge and I met a man who said that we have been observing him for the last four years. And quite frankly we were delighted when he was expelled from the movement because the religion Elijah Muhammad's nation of Islam was not considered as orthodox Islam. And they wanted him you know to help them in their country.

But he felt that his responsibility was for black people because most of the leaders somehow had disappointed black people. And he wanted at least to see a directional gain. We have dealt in the relationship you know high visibility high relationship but not we have not gained on the task level. And he was more interested in the task level you know you can like me but you need to understand that I have certain rights as a human being. So that I think his goal was to change the thinking and the attitude just just very simply if you change the thinking and the attitude you know you can have a blood less revolution actually. So that the challenge still faces all he did was hold up a mirror of what had been going on in this country and people really could not take that so that they said that he was the God of violence you know.

And he did not commit any violence in his lifetime other than his death and he didn't commit his own death. So that I think about Malcolm sometimes when I see the young men on the corner or all of our young brothers in prison I'm of course they're women too. But and the like of grounding of our people fighting to this or to that without do course that this is mine and I do wonder where are we going you know. And I sometimes observe people not all of the leaders but who are more willing to please others than themselves and their people please in terms of that internal stability you know that this is mine that that is necessary.

So that we need perhaps to we look at our needs and assess where we're going and choose people to be our leaders on those bases. Well his love of humanity is willingness to work the fact that our young people need to accept the responsibility. All young people not just black and but all young people need to accept the responsibility to do what is best to salvage civilization.

We talk in terms of nuclear war fair and we think in terms of drugs and polluting the sea and you know everything is destruction you know surely people of good will can come together to salvage the world. I wonder now though with Malcolm gone they don't have anyone to point to and I look at all of the violence and the discrimination and and all of the people who was against Malcolm somehow they have not gotten together to get rid of all of the things that that ALS. So that Malcolm is at peace he did all of the things that he had to do and and should have done.

I would not have had it any different but I wonder about all of those people who are still involved in a how relationship type of leadership you know I wonder where they will lead us. And you look at the world it is really in torment and Malcolm's dead 25 years so that he was totally correct in his assessment and I think that people need to know that. No well I think that I think you should ask me that that that question yes because I'm not. Oh well I wasn't married to him at the time that you were talking about the demonstration but I was close to it.

And of course the police had wrongly abused one of the men who was considered a brother for no apparent reason of the mistaken identity of which that was a settlement. But everyone was was just very frightened of that whole group of black men who were later joined by some women and it was felt that Malcolm was. Keep going. It was felt that no black man should have that kind of strength or power to dispatch black men in that kind of demonstration.

And of course it was I thought really not the proper thing for people to say maybe to think because what we want to do is to have people to have allegiance to themselves. You know everyone fight for the allegiance of black people and if it appeared to me that because they had allegiance to Malcolm at that particular time that he was considered a threat. And a lot of negative dialogue began to emanate that these black men and women adhered to his instructions to go or to come. Everyone fights for the allegiance of black people you know but when blacks have allegiance to black that seems to be still considered very dangerous when it is the most natural there is.

Of course there was no fear on their part either and that was one of the things that I found with my own parents when I was going to a southern school and came home and began to talk about the discrimination and the difficulties that I had when I would go into town. And my parents really could not deal with it because and I understand and of course love them no less but they were afraid and a lot of people do things because internally they've been bred on fear. Fear that if they show allegiance to blacks that something would happen you see and so my parents were very fearful and that was the one very striking thing about Malcolm that he had no fear.

And I am of course not as strong as he but I am very grateful that I had the conference experience to be around him for years and experience a black man who was go-oriented and had a love for his people. He made his contribution as he should and as we all should but without fear he feared God and that was it. How was this man able to move from the streets of Harlem to a university like in Oxford and be able to talk on all different levels to all different things?

He was well read. He was well read. He was a prolific reader of the classics every day. He could deal with a difficult book in three or four hours. In his analytical skills self taught but was very sharp and I can remember he would go through various skills at home you know and I couldn't remember who came what time they came you know who said what or whatever you know and he says girl when I was in prison there was so much time that if a fly flew through a window you would not say the fly flew through the window you would say the fly flew through the lower right hand quadrum and landed on its front legs. He was just very observant and very analytical.

Two other questions the 1967 visit to ramparts magazine the black campus has scored it into that magazine can you describe that incident and your feelings around it? I had no feelings you know I was really surprised that sometime later I read where someone said that I was really in fear you know I didn't even know what was happening let alone you know how can I be fearful I just felt I was in the cable war. I was in the cable war hands of these black men all dressed up militaristically I didn't know who they were. I was invited there for a program and as a matter of fact I had gone to sleep on the plane and I woke up and we were landing and when I got outside there was all of these police. I would imagine lined on each side of the little area where you walk from the plane to the terminal and when I saw them all standing there you know on both sides shoulder to shoulder I went oh my god someone was on the plane.

And I didn't see them you know and I kind of criticized myself for going to sleep on the plane. And as I walked to the end of that walkway and made a slight right and so the brothers standing out there dressed militaristically I went oh okay. I understand and there was a young man reciting part of the constitution about carrying firearms and I don't know it it really did something to me I just said oh wow that's just really fantastic. And so that I got in a car and was swept away and so that I certainly didn't have any fear it was just an experience and I did not know until afterwards what was happening.

And we went to ramparts magazine and then they said okay we must go now and I got up and I left and it was not until we got to the second place that I was told what had happened. And so we were all safe so you know plus I was going back to New York anyway. And in 1972 you went to Gary Convention and I want you to tell me what your thinking was and what the experience was. I was very pleased that number one that organizers had the sensibility correct sensibility to have the conference. I thought it was a very good thing I still think it's a good thing when people come together and discuss their own agenda. It was brought out at the conference that people please vote in terms of self-interest not in terms of people who had paid their way and it was a big joke.

And I thought oh my goodness you know that you know people would come to the conference not for the own self-interest but black people would come to the conference with the notion for someone else I found that very very strange. I think that if you are free people and an adult and thinking about your own responsibility and you have the right of the vote that you should vote whichever way you choose. I saw nothing wrong with the conference there was some negative press you know black thing and of course it was kind of given the notion that if it was a black thing it was not a good thing you know which I think is not such a good way to promote things. I thought it was healthy if there are differences if there are questions why not you know an open forum the Polish union leader is supported with his differences why not any other ethnic group leader supported.

So I thought it was very good and said so some people say you know it failed it didn't know it didn't fail because people came together and crystallized their thinking and probably if there was any failure it was that it didn't happen the next year and the next year and the next year. Thank you.