Martin Agronsky: Evening Edition; 50

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tall and ling ling hua washington this is now here is spartan president ford is cold and the new side i agree when we need it the newsroom a great achievement one of the most historic certainly of this decade and perhaps of this century and the jerusalem the reaction to the agreement seemed less enthusiastic former israeli premier go to my ears said you have to take it in its proper proportions not with fanfare but also live with a feeling of mourning and an israeli official described the court like this is real gives egypt gets in the united states pays for

well tonight on evening edition a discussion of the new agreement its meaning for israel and for the prospects for peace in the middle east with the ambassador of israel or the united states or so that their nets joining the discussion is oswald johnston of the los angeles times who covered the kissinger mission to the middle east the filibuster we start off rivers simple question what secrets do you know that we don't know we're live this is the simple one mr martin i'm afraid of what will come next i don't think that they're the importance of the agreement is in trying to probe these old that i'm probably cohen published a commitment i think the importance of freedom i would not go as far as the describing the end before he will also the beginning of the new way of the we hope that it stops and you are i think the importance of the meeting the fact that for the first time is wearing an up country if signed an open agreement which is not the result of a

direct military confrontation or other agreements that we decided to pass armistice agreement cease fire agreement where agreements to end the state of actual fighting this time it was a voluntary agreement that came out of negotiations aimed directly at the first places that were but in order to establish a basis for peace and the basis for corporations and i think in this in the open face of fate is they are really important thing mr rosner i think one of the things that concerns members of congress and possibly members of the public as well under the heading of both sacred commitments or let's not do that to israel and egypt but rather to israel and the united states and what has in some quarters been described as a greater degree of formality and a greater degree of america's commitment to israel that has ever existed before

i think that this is really not the case i don't think that a indo relations between us anything basically different as occurred as a result of that we i think that what we have done in this agreement tonight that state's amassed we have to try to say it in a more orderly way to set of principles that guided our relations for over a quarter of a century i think there is nothing in the commitments that wasn't even in practice done before olympia we believe before and i think the fact that we have put it in an orderly manner of the fact that we have a region it inedible contractual manner as doing nothing more than setting in in an orderly fashion what in fact is being practiced both with regard to an aide to israeli with regard to political strategic ordination which we got to all play some of the sound so to speak i mean let me just give you an example if i may the united states and its way of

standing in the same side of the fence in the global confrontation this is a fact we have never sold our ideas in the marketplace of the us and maybe this is our weakness as well i believe that sells dreamt but maybe for bargaining focuses a week now the fact that america a win was eased an attempt as indeed in their october twenty four when they award powell a threatened intervention in the middle east a unilateral intervention is nothing to do with it as elaine the world powers jr no wind and october twenty four local place is nothing to do with hillary's any written document all know we got him in a body it is an action that is motivated by the national interest of the united states and i expect that in the future any action of the united states use of the middle east situation in general when our relations with the united states in particular would be motivated by what the united states believes to be its legitimate national interest which you implying that there now exists a written undertaking to act in a

way similar to october you know i did not imply these i just use it as an example automatic acted and without any written agreement on the spending whatsoever on diesel any other point for terrorism or not not specifically on this that not just in terms of consultation and in terms of reassertion of the united states a vital interest in the traditional friendship for the security and wellbeing of his plan which includes of course a security against the threat of a walkout mr investor let me fall asleep on the question of the neighbors receptacle israel in case there were to be a war and one hopes there will not be but it could cut must have oil you've given up the upward those oil fields of providing you a veteran africa report united states has provided three hundred and fifty million dollars out of the money isn't going to give you to provide you with that

oil that you're losing about two days now if there is to be a war you simply must have access to oil unless you have enormous reserves maybe you do and i'm not aware of it but one would assume that you must have a constant flow of oil now what concerns every one is it seems most unlikely that israel knowing that on oil depends for survival in a protracted would that not be willing to sign any agreements in which he was not absolutely guarantee absolutely certain that that oil will be provided which of course leads to the supposition that israel and the united states have some kind of an agreement that the united states will say no matter what our attempts to intercede to stop that israel continues to get its oil does such an agreement exists

you have made a very convincing argument for having such an e mail such a strong investment committee or what i can save i don't think there's any country to work that there's an absolute guarantee that he's never going to be any interruption of oil and and circumstance what we have tried to achieve in alabama with united states is because we have given up not only sixty percent of fallen consumption but actually we have killed our dependence on one hundred percent off on importation before that is to say because we have exposed also have this degree of danger we have tried to achieve from the united states an understanding with regard to their availability of all it is to say we will continue to make now on the arrangements in order to find oil wherever we can supply of meat if a friendly if we think we have an understanding with united states or the united states will help us within the terms of what the constitutional and other arrangements are being made like contained times of shortage you cut you want or oil reserves and in terms

of agreements are to have with other countries that actually story is made available for us to purchase in this country in addition to the other sources that we hope will maintain though the flow and their supplies but it is notable vision and this is really the point i wanted to make for the united states was printed and some of the papers for the united states has sent warships to a school all the oil law although tank just anomalies was made an undersecretary of state mr cisco's said exactly that to late night before last on this program sitting where you are now or you reaffirm but there is no such specific the ring you know sometimes when walter fall say the same thing it's the new story that mean that we're there to be a war situation or an embargo situation that israel might have to go without and assured supply of oil from the outside and instead rely on products reserve capacity that it's going we will have to rely on now is of capacity even as we made

an arrangement to get all into islam and by the fall into conflict pipeline and therefore we are not as vulnerable as all that but naturally in times of emergency in time for that would be a problem that we would be doing everything in el pollo to say bleep that would minimize this problem as much as you can and i don't think there is an absolute solution to places such as this and this was settled without an absolute guarantee of supply at all times when i think it was settled to the best possible extent that area of agreement such as these can be settled between two sovereign countries i don't think we could go beyond what was promised by the united states and i think that well before his by the united states is quite inadequate if not a hundred percent of this factory but what's an adequate issuance that we were not the victims of a combination of oil in that time or when it will be needed most mr russert the late again follows the johnsons blood question a step further

i'm sure you read the young and he's written by the former undersecretary state george ball about this agreement very critical of they might see observation that if there were war in the middle east it could become as he put it a proxy war between the united states and the soviet union he puts it on one level would be a conflict between the arabs and the israelis on the other a proxy war and if it is real threat and he says the fall of damascus for example was so we can be under pressure to airdrop our true divisions and he concludes what then would be our response the american response what do you think of this for well i have read this article and i read many of his other writings and i must say i don't always find myself an agreement with his analysis first of all i fail to see our custom built warns against a confrontation with the soviet union and at the same time he's advocating to cope with the soviet union in the peace making process in such a way that i believe we lead to a

stalemate which would lead to a confrontation in a much easier way oh and much more imminent wave and the chance that we are taking on a piece by be so a step by step approach to would the situation secondly uk sofer threat to damascus that he's describing this analogy i mean that whether the salt between phobia normal that question can legitimately be asked regardless of whether the reason interim agreement with egypt elder isn't interim agreement with each so i think you see how in his mind dont mind of some other people this agreement between israel and egypt and dances or makes it a danger of all for confrontational acute that it would have been even be no agreement in a statement with them begun for them but before it and the question i wanted to come until something with a cinematic beginning of your remarks quoting someone by saying egypt to talk is really gave an america that and i really official with what

the weather liaison name the fish i think there's nothing more well i would almost say more vicious and morgan collect them to describe of a role of the united states in agreeing about disagreement as if you'd bought it from is that oath is now sold itself for the money i think that ignores a historic affect the economic effect and the defense that's a lariat i'd day united states assistant to israelis a long term policy a traditional policy that started in the times of president truman what the main purpose of this policy was to see to it that israel is the defensive posture and economic viability to remain as a strong and viable democracy in the middle east it was not so you've done because of all the lights it was not so you've done because we have a democracy and in the middle east are the democratic countries in the world it was done because president of the president and administration after administration believe that it is the national interest of the united states to maintain a strong and viable israel in the middle east because they believed that the

defense in the front deals of freedom that will begin in new york and end in los angeles but they'll work and the other half the people willing to defend themselves for themselves and for the sake of freedom and i think it is the cheapest contribution that any great democracy can make toward peace and stability by allowing people who cherish freedom to fight for themselves and defend themselves and keep there the markets and i think any attempt to tie team would be agreement as pope and elevens in fact at last it wouldn't have agreement and we receive more military aid then we expect to receive the city like we are receiving from the united states for which we are very grateful to you the capacity to defend also in face of the influx of billions of dollars off russian military hardware and western hard work at the flowing without countries to maintain that we grew and to allow the diplomatic forces to continue and believe me martin if you make an account of what it cost

to keep a diplomacy off base all to finance their policy of crisis and war you'll state much better off in trying to maintain equilibrium and stability in trying to finance was like a take off from one suggestion you made this was that at all times the american policy has been that it is in the interest of the united states to back israel fully now we have a situation where to a greater degree than any time perhaps twenty years that the united states is drawing closer to egypt as well i remember several times before the nineteen seventy three war israeli officials would tell me that it was an illegal situation because the soviet backed the arabs one hundred percent and with you it's maybe seventy thirty now it's perhaps drawn closer to fifty fifty do you think that the american i want to change it i want to make it

we have very much valued and cherished a fungible you like it's that we did it in the past and we deleted that but we have another acclaimed exclusivity in this love we knew that the united states has interested out of wood as a no interest in the middle east we don't believe that these are necessarily compare them are incompatible interest they can live side by side we have never never demanded that the united states should develop a policy of of the most elite the two countries which also collapsed in fact we always hope the dew and know as a result of increased influence of the united states let us say in the mideast that great element of stability we be distilled and area and greater influence for peace we become bay to old labels often are we don't want to remain enemies without actual event i'll go is executive mike it's difficult to see peace as the beauty of it and if the united states through the increase of of its influence with out of work can help bring this about more powerful weight this

doesn't make it the gentle soul begrudge anyone else we always have to say to eat that it has not done an expensive all likely interest and i do not believe this administration or future administration abbas news stations we do this on the expense of divide them into service what they believe that this process is underway with respect to egypt in particular i definitely believe that this process is underway within upper egypt that is to say the strengthening of american influence in egypt i'd look exclude that equaled spillover plot that area for the middle east and as i said we're not considering a disaster or a negative phenomenal a negative development in a week school bus or what about the israeli relationship with egypt in the beginning there was a great reluctance on the part of the responsible and the members of your government to accept on good faith propositions are decorations made by the egyptian president mr saddam now there is a

premise at this position i want them up and we are was what when where the sports but we were somewhat skeptical and the reason we were skeptical is because after all the wreck or the volvo a quarter of a century indicated that there were broken promises that there were believed you and statements that bill bennett cause attitude starting from very early demand control is well into the seafloor the top two conference of no negotiation no peace no admission so obviously it's only natural to tell people would be skeptical and would be saying about taking risks for peace and i think this is exactly what we do i cannot say that they are more ballots in our mind but we feel that you know the protest these bouts order to test these inventions we must take risks and we have taken this risk with the hope that really maybe not but in life it is going to be turned into meetings or one extremely

significant relief that could be turned on addition clear agreement with the eu would be negotiations with syrup your printer been has indicated that he finds it very unlikely that the syrians be willing to go out with a negotiation knowing as he put it that they couldn't exchange more than ten or a hundred yards in the golan heights now there are indications that israel and egypt asked the united states to try to initiate syrian israeli negotiations that may indeed be under way what did the united states do so are they under well i'm not the well for any israeli would you can request of the united states to initiate negotiation with syria what i'm aware is a file a clear policy which was before and subsequent to rejection israeli agreement and this is that we are prepared to negotiate an overall peace bold with syria and with jordan and they would any other country was willing to negotiate peace with us let me explain to you now in relation to alegria when the syrian

situation there is nothing in the agreement that iq indirectly which we have been bound also in any way to start negotiations with syria or doubling twenty so the arrangement which again i'll policy as i said stands that we're prepared to negotiate with syria we're prepared to negotiate with jordan leave these countries do indicate that they have intention to negotiate peace agreements with us about i want to go beyond this the betting cuts the very essence of the interim agreement between signed with egypt as i was trying to explain bill and the question before last was that we were trying to be a new foundation for peace this foundation cannot be built solely by documents they cannot be sanctified soul hit by signatures it has to be implemented by globally on the ground we have to see how the kitchen sink type of those commitments they gave how they treated greene how we live together in those early us in which we have to

have cooperation such as on the joint called sergeant in the joint commission and then there i hope a feeling of trust would be developed between us and the egyptians which i believe we have a great influence on the future relations in the middle east not only with regard to his role in egypt but when we got to is well in any other country it is not going to serve any but it's puppets to say to israeli fest you did not sign an agreement with egypt because you want the sanctified is that the status quo and now you have signed agreement with egypt because they want to preserve the status quo i think this is a a rawness an incorrect assessment of the situation we are indulging knocking an act mopping up in the process and the process of peacemaking as opposed to an act of peacemaking is something that takes time and these tusks and i think we first must concentrate the seed of these bonds of beast and of cooperation agreement produced their white suits and as part of this process and to rephrase martin's

question again is it possible for an interim agreement to be achieved with syria where today that that is that something that you obviously know anyone who have visited their yellow but the reigning syria in the ghailani such that there cannot be any of maneuvering such as we have for instance in the sinai desert for another interim agreement in fact when we have signed a disengagement agreements with syria it was our understanding that this subsequent agreement we would be a final peace agreement because there is simply no warmth the lead additional in the movies you can move from disengagement of peace and that is while prime minister said that the nicols of an interim agreement or what can be done is in significant changes and we are not trying to sell you any deal of moods opposition is known very well for the americans we have made public if you will not find provide anything we up a purple signed agreement with syria but we don't see any feasibility in trying to play this interim

business unity rain subject is an authentic your subject isn't under circumstances if it becomes necessary to get through the really basic issues of the middle east this bill that has a lot of ego which syria along well with the whole situation in syria jordan you just carry the door character when they're just elation the situation in jordan of course is that is that all the complex nature festival well we our and i can read you a bit about to enter into peace negotiations would deal with it up to golden dr products festival there about conference has deprived maybe to crimea but they're deprived from gold and the mandate to speak in the name of the palestinians all i don't know you've got a country so some other countries they live to regret this and maybe it will change the affect of the middle east it's so far he doesn't comb and as far as we are concerned we up a pill can negotiate with jordan

a peace agreement we are a couple takes such a plan to day decision no foul electorate because the government has pledged itself a parliament that before we implement all sign of any peace agreement with jordan which involves deploying compromise we would take it to the vocals of the government is not afraid to take a peace plan that includes compromised a little bit sort of to be honest and arabs as we have said on a number of patients the palestinian question must be so it is not a question of can beat you know but you can only so within the framework of bees which all because jordan it's a piece by the finest but the majority of the palestinians live until the majority of jordanians are palestinians is only up the fish of the book in terms of creating yet a third state between jordan and it's where if you were not verified existed he alone exists they want a state the other arab countries seemed to be backing their demand for the creation of well i don't know whether the fact that out

of fraud exists means that all out effort says is legitimate all right after all if you choose that if you wear look at the position of pop up today even with and out of work even a spokesman of the palestinians today as opposed to seven months ago in behind law we'll visit the islands and the united nations you realize a piece we realize that more and more palestinians are having their ballots whether he's weak this spokesman that we bring them become a good solution is a slogan producing organization and all potentially polluting over literally alternative authority that can speak for the palestinians' other than the plo or a king say when it could be king hussein and it could be any other will go to the palestinians that we be based on accommodation with this way it would be based on establishing the palestinian rights and whatever claims that they have with in peace agreement which old because after all there is a window that is technological connection that there is a religious

connection there is definitely totally there and and nineties as a listing in his novels it is not less promising in the novels to say the palestine is on it would originally because you want to solve it by resolving the jewels this is maybe a very year tempting slogan but that is hardly a commitment of thirty as they're all prime ministers one said a nationalist suicide is not an international obligation and i've just seen our thoughts recently in one of those stations in america and i noticed some reporters were very diligent in trying to extract full name at the army is that at least he would leave side by side what is right even if he would be allowed to establish a state in the west bank and in the gaza strip and with all the good intention accused that one of them had he never succeeded through to the fullest form in this conversation that is why can also leave as an independent state and maybe for a while and i think that was the closest that they got to work to a compromise not alas it is not that very appealing published mr russert will

have a few seconds left looking at the thing well as improve the prospects for these i believe so i believe that it at least you played a foundation to a large extent it's up to us the egyptians the israelis don't want to let these things be no child and develop properly and then i think it would be a blessing for the vikings do voters think that you are free i am actually an innovation monday they talk to members of the wednesday a group of liberal republican senators senator charles first illinois senator ted stevens of alaska funding provided by public television stations the ford foundation and the corporation for public broadcaster this is like an invasion of at waga which

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