Signature; George C. Wolfe; Gregory Hines

I know the project I know a little bit about the genesis of a joint project with basically three of you guys right now and Margot going to produce and you were there from the beginning and then George and several years down the road after there's been some other times writers and sort of what do you think. I mean thinking about George as a writer first of all before right on. What do you think he brought to it as a writer and I gather that it was sort of a tough thing to figure out to find a writer translate material into a stage. Do you have any sense of from your perspective as a performer what he brought to it as a writer. Well. I think that the people that were involved with it before George they were certainly looking for. Aspects of jelly roll that were you know known as is is an amazing

ego and his is the fact that he created you know felt that he created. You know they were looking to to to work with those things but. But George this is this is there's something about George I feel that it really is always looking underneath. You know I think George is I think George was the first writer that I spent time with where I could see that he really was not satisfied with just going a little bit and that he truly believed that there was there was definitely always a lot more way way out. And and. You know he also had the courage to to make decisions about how he felt about Jelly Roll Morton and put it on paper and I remember reading the first things that I was reading. I thought wow you know I mean I wonder if this guy was really like that.

And then after a while you know I would read it and I would think you know this is a boy but this is just the way he was because there's just something about the way did that you know research it just the way he would he would translate things that he read about jelly or you know he was just he was just looking to go as deep as possible. And this is a musical which I write so you know that in itself I thought it was it was such a courageous thing you know musical also about African-Americans so you know it's those kind of shows usually there's no blues in those shows and everybody's happy and and and as an audience we're happy and and that's what we've come to expect that's what audiences have come to expect when they go to see an African-American musical on Broadway that you know a lot of talented people just exploding on the stage and doing great dancing and singing and and.

And moving them in that way. So you know the first couple of scripts that just turned the jelly's last jam I looked at it and it was just that it was so dark that I thought I don't think so. Yeah I don't think this is going to sort of like the double edged sword you know that was one of the great achievements of the show I think was that it was so rich and complex in terms of the story the character and the themes and everything as opposed to I don't use other names of shows but that's sort of typical for African-American. Right right well yeah but that was the that was the big risk because you know maybe there have been I wouldn't think that there has been anybody trying to do something risky and dark. With an African-American show underway but but I know that people that that were involved with the people that were in already involved as investors and people were shaky about it and people they were trying to get to invest was shaky about it because

you know right at the core of a musical was a guy who was not that likable. And in fact you know was you know somebody the audience might dislike. You know it's denies people like that and say the kinds of things that he said. You know it certainly wasn't you know like Robert Preston and music man. You know it wasn't it wasn't that. And so that is a risk and that is a Broadway musicals. I don't know what ours was but it's always upwards of you know four or five million bucks to happen and a couple people don't like and they write bad reviews. It's done. And and that's a given and that's what everybody has to go through so you know that's something that we knew we were going to have to go through but you know to see it written on the page that this character was going to do those kinds of things and say those kinds of things to people who who loved him. It must've been scary for Pam and Margo but it must be scary for you as performer of a

few. I mean did you think about do I want to be playing this kind of guy and I didn't want I don't want to play you know and I had a big hassle with George about it because you know I didn't really know where George was coming from then going into the project. Right. Not that I know when George is going to do now but I have to have a sense of that. And so I was has it's in the you know I was talking with George and I you know I you know in retrospect I was rude to him in a way you know en route to his process. And so you know that was that I was going to do it. But George was moving ahead Margot and Pamela moving ahead with this. And Pamela kept saying to me you know she kept saying you know because Pamela was working with Joyce through this and she was getting you know caught up in. And George and his

process and and she was seeing it and she you know I was pretty tight at that point about you know and I don't know I don't want to hear anything you know I'm not I'm not doing it I mean. And Pam was saying you know you stay open you know come see it was done. Come see it. I want you to do it you know this is something that we wanted to do as a couple. You know we wanted to try that. Let's see if we can do something together. And so I did you know I want to see in Los Angeles. And when I went to see in Los Angeles I saw the things that George was saying to me and the things are on the page. I saw it in action and it moved me and it shook me. And I thought to myself wow you know this this is what he was trying to say to me you know what I was to you know originals but to live because I had never seen anything like it before and I had never been you know in line to do anything like that. So risky. So after that you know I said the pain was you know see if we can hook it up I'd like to meet with George again I'd like to talk

with him. And you know naturally George who is always. Not like one would expect him to be or not is not going to react like anybody would expect him to react he just it's a mistake to go into anything with George with any kind of expectations about how he's going to be. And he was open to me. You know I thought he was going to say no you know I'm going to move on and he was open to me we got together we talked you know he told me straight out how he felt how he wanted to work and which inspired me to be able to be honest with him. And then it started and and and all along the way he was pushing me and pulling me and trying to get me to to to not use the things that had always worked for me and to actually take a risk. You know when actors talk about taking the risk they talk about stretching they talk we talk we talk we talk but ultimately a lot of times we fall back on what we know works because it's worked in the past and it's scary to take a risk.

And I remember one day rehearsal he said to me because a rehearsal I've always I always thought of rehearsal as a fun time I don't particularly like doing it but I like to be fun and you know getting to meet people in the KSA and just you know enjoying was so you know when I'm not doing what I can relax I can play and be playful. And one day came up to me after we'd been rehearsing for about two weeks and he said in my I mean I don't know him that well at that point it is just me you know I'd like to see you one day just come in here and just stay with it all day. And that joke in the play but just stayed in jelly all day and you know there was a side to the other side of him in you know this is the way I work truck. But you know he said to me is such a. He said to me in a way that built up my trust for him I respect him right away because he was really really reaching out to

me to try to get something war and try to allow me to find something more. And so I did the next day. The next couple days I tried to do it and it wasn't easy because I was so used to goofing off. If there was a goofy moment and I found that it did affect me I found that when I went home that night I was perturbed or thinking you know starting to think about little things that maybe I could try tomorrow and I think that you know and he just you know he's one of those people in my life that had a powerful effect on me. You know I know I know it when it happens. You know I've had it happen to have been you know maybe a dozen people in my life you know right from Certainly my parents to you know real attack you know my high school teacher just emotion you know and right on through. And George Wolf you know

after working with him for about six months you know I just. You know I love love I'm in love with. Yeah you know it's just that it is really good. Part of the way he approaches old work it's like pretty serious business I mean he's very funny and he is very funny. You know he is a very I think every George will say you know one of the things we've gotten a lot of people you were you were well you know I think the first time the first time he said to me how I used things like that or used his expression some time to say and you know and it's really what that's what I mean you know I thought I might have been with some other some other people in the cast might over there you know and the thing about it was as he was doing it we were laughing. But what I was also understanding what he was saying and it was a typical joke I was looking around

and and I saw everybody everybody else understood what he was saying. So then I thought now we're really in trouble you know. We can understand what he's saying just by that and you know everybody felt I think that. The thing about the experience is I felt like everybody felt about it like I did. Everybody everybody was so grateful for a moment. And it does have that ability to focus in on you because that's what he has talked to you about what you're doing and then go somewhere else and focus in on them. And it's great to have that kind of attention from the director from the writer director. It's great for a member of the ensemble to have that. And for a member of the ensemble to have a problem and feel comfortable expressing it to the writer director you know the people in the cast when they had to put on blackface in the back one they didn't like it. They feel really bad about it. He was open to their feelings and they

expressed them to him and he expressed to them how he felt. And it wasn't like a director saying a bunch of stuff but really saying and it's my show. So that's what you're going to do because I know some directors who can really talk well and they say a whole bunch of stuff trying to make it seem like you know they empathize with you and they understand but it's a creative it's a deeper thing and you know try to own it. But really what they're saying is you know this is going to go down or the like and I'm going to give you five minutes talk so that maybe it will make you feel a little better but no George it was always you know it was always done with with such feeling and emotion and really trying to to help people understand how important this was. I want Porton it was that they get that they feel all those feelings with a black face on it. You know it wasn't that they had to put sre anything they could use those feelings. And and and

and isn't it you know isn't it clear that that African-Americans always felt the way they're feeling that and you know they put it on after that and they used it and they used all of those things and so it was it was it was vintage George in terms of in terms of bringing everybody along. Yes you know cause you must feel about playing that character. Oh listen you know there were times in rehearsal where there were lines that then I had to say as jelly and I couldn't see him and I said you know this guy this is you know how am I going to say that. And he would say don't say don't say today you don't have to say that. And so you know after a while I started saying it you know I'm on my way to work every day trying to save his life. And then after a while you know with the other actors you know because they had some very difficult things that they had to say and they'd be saying this stuff and I started

saying it a little bit and George you know George never commented on it. He just let me get comfortable saying these things and they were terrible things to be saying you know American musicals days or anywhere for that matter. And. It was during that period that I think I began to understand Jelly Roll Morton if I ever understood him I think I started to that and because. Certainly the job of an actor who has to play somebody who is not a good person who has a lot of problems and on some level crew. Has to have an understanding of why somebody would say those kinds of things. Laurence Fishburne Ike Turner and you know

playing him and then he got inside of him. And that helped him do it and he gave a great portrayal and did some awful things but he was able to do it as an actor because I think he did kind of step on the stand. And so that was the first time that I had a character where I had to try to understand why a man would talk so much you know and not just say it but understand what would happen what would get him to that point and you know once again I just you know it was George who was who is leading me you know George was doing what the rector's are supposed to do and they don't do it. A lot of times I've worked with some talented directors and some really good directors and I would love to work with again. But I've also worked with people that you know they you know they don't understand really about trust from from an actor.

You know that the trust that has to go back and forth. And George Douglas George does you know sometimes I felt like it was George understood it to the degree that you know it was he and I out on the stage you know because that's a lot of times with directors I think to myself you know this is you know I'm the one who's going to have to do that on the screen. It's me you know. And if it doesn't work or if it looks bad what you're asking me to do what you're giving me the idea that this is that which I should do it. I said you know the audience might not think she's you know just it's not happening it's probably that the rector. That's what it is is that the director the director told him to do that. No. But there are some directors who have a sense of that may think you know they want me to be comfortable they want me to really be clear they want and that way you know I feel a lot of times like George was out there with me and wouldn't send me some you know crap or stuff that didn't that didn't have value.

And also you know as well as with you know shows if they run a well you know actors get seduced by the audience and start doing different things and you know work for the audience. And he wasn't into that. You know that's not right. Come back you're back. I mean that's that's always a struggle with the play terms. You talk a little bit earlier about different cultures. Well I think that I think that certainly. I think it was one of the most powerful pieces of entertainment and information that that has stage the Broadway musical stage. You know it's not a coincidence that that George is involved with things like that you know like Twilight and

you know that I always like to think of myself as very informal like you know something happens especially you know that has to do with African-Americans as I'm up on. I know what's going on. And when I went to see Anna Deavere Smith in that piece it was every character told me something that I didn't know was all kinds of new information that I had no idea and go into and that's the kind of thing you know bring on the Noise Bring on the fun. You know it's a lot of information coming off the stage. Blade in the heat. It's like it's you know that's what George can do he can entertain you and he can inform you. And and and audiences enjoy it. And let's face it in order for play any play or any musical to make it on Broadway it has to cross over to the wider audience as much as we try to get the African-American to come and support theater. And the group sales and you know I mean Pamela

I saw her you know just giving everything just moving heaven and earth to try to make sure that we can get an African-American audience and to see Jolie lowering ticket prices deals percentages off you know youth groups senior citizens just trying to get. It's got a crossover. And so that's what we were able to do. And why don't is a sat there and they saw stuff that they had never. Some of them I'm sure had never seen. That kind of stuff you know I don't I think that there were white people who came to see him who had never seen an African-American man and woman laying on the bed grinding and kissing and sticking their tongues in the Joes mouth. I mean I don't think that's the kind of movie that some of these people would go see. Well the kind of thing that they're interested in seeing you know that. But they sat there and they were moved and they were turned on and they were shocked and they found themselves participating. You know and and you know it was not it was nothing to be you know. And at a Sunday matinee with the

predominantly church group filled the audience to have them yell at the stage you know when one jelly says you know tell Jack to you know put on a coat or something and it says a cruel thing. But we had we had white what is going on. You know they hear the line they go. And so that's what I felt I felt that it brought something to the American musical stage that shook it out and the 293 shook it up you know and I can't say that there's been a lot of shows that have come behind that and done that because it is still as as heavy a risk now as it was when maybe the more it's probably more expensive. But but also it points out the singular talent that George Will is and the fact that he was able to get and that Pamela and Margot believed and believed in him enough to really go you know to the finish line

because you know maybe it offended some of the reviewers they wouldn't give it a bad review and said you know where's the fun where's the life on the stage you know this is too down too dark too. And it kind of closed and then you know Pamela Margot went to handle the new show but it would have been a tough thing. But they went they went with them to the mat and you did too. I'm so happy you're so happy that you actually got in I was going to ask you about how you feel about George now reducing the public. Now you've got sort of an even bigger stage in a way for some of these ideas is exciting for you as an African-American to see him in that kind of position. Oh definitely but you know George is George I remember I heard George talking about saving on and George said something to the effect that saving is 22 years old and he is just really like somebody just said like so many wakes up in the morning and really hasn't

even been up in Syria. I feel that way about George in a lot of ways because George is just you know it's just like in the last three four years you know a guy like George Will going to have like a 25 30 year career until he retires. You know it's who to go to Brazil. I know you're going to do that retire and you're going to go to some miles. And I see George as you know George Will make films because he is very visual is very cinematic. He does that stuff on the stage all the time you know bringing people up out of it bring him down you know and using the lighting in a way that makes people just appear in the way just the way he thinks and the way you describe something you know I I was I was with him once with Robin Wagner when he was describing throughout a Wagner what he wanted to do and I couldn't I couldn't believe how Robert Wagner wasn't afraid and thinking you know how much of

this was this guy talking about you know and also the way he describes it I mean I'm sure if you spoke to any of the people that he works with technical people you know he has a way of talking that they start to understand what he wants and they can say you know he's pushing them just like he's pushing everybody and himself so. And Robert was sitting there and he was he was he was getting turned on about what to do. And I thought geez how is Robin going to make that happen this isn't a movie get just you know make anything happen this is a stage has he didn't do that and. So you know I think there's a lot. So much is going to come out of the question with you maybe because we're coming at this project. George is a writer and in some ways I know he's said it's difficult for him now to find that time. Time writer needs that.

Do you worry at all that the incredible career success and sort of public success he's had over the last jeopardizes or threatens his work as a creative artist muse very minister I don't know he's going to worry about budgets and the board of directors is that you think that's a danger. Yeah I don't worry about George in terms of George as a creator because. I feel that he has the discipline to do the things that he has agreed to do. The commitment that he has made to the Public Theater. He has the discipline to see it I have to see it through and to take care of what he has to take care of. He has a tremendous amount of energy. And like I said he has that ability to focus on what needs to be focused on. But I think you know because George knows so much and has such a point of view such a

powerful strong point of view and because he will never lose his anger because he is just steep. He is just he is so aware of what has gone down. And what continues to go down that is it will come out you know it has to come out. You know I know he doesn't have the time to read but he's always writing he's always jotting things that he told me one time and one time we were together and he and he and he said this thing he said you know I wrote this line the other day and he just said it to me. And it was far out. And you know I didn't know what to make of it but I knew that it was going to use that somewhere and he would he had it to use somewhere. And these were things that just come out of him. You know I mean you know somebody if somebody had the time and the energy to just stay with George and be around him and just keep the tape are going to go on and just get all that stuff that just comes out when he's

describing you know what it was like to buy the newspaper this morning or somebody he saw you know sitting across from him at a at a at a luncheon that and their expressions and stuff. And you know there's this is there's stories is there is there is there's ideas for a story in at is so much that he does and he just you know I just love him just great. It's great there's nobody there is absolutely nobody that I've ever met that is even remotely like you know I couldn't even say Wolf a little bit you know which is George. And then there's the rest of us. It's great it's great great stories. You want to do. There are but none that I can really say in the document is going to do the school. Right. I would want to write you know just burn their little money

with you know who he is. You can get it. Thanks.