From the Source; Mel King-Ray Flynn Debate. Part 1

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Welcome to Fund and Storage, I'm your host, Robert T. Johnson Jr., we're doing a live broadcast this evening from the Jeremiah Burke School and Dorchester. There's a mayoral debate that's occurring here tonight, entitled Drug Abuse and Crime, and it's sponsored by the Greater Boston Substance Abuse Service Providers and by the Justice Resource Institute, the neighborhood crime prevention network. The debate hasn't started yet, people are still coming in, and we thought that we would interview some of the community leaders to get their views on the question of crime and drug abuse in the black community. We have, before me, Minister Don, who is the Minister of Mohamed's Temple, number 11, in Dorchester. You could be with us this evening, Minister Don, let's see a views on crime in the black community.

I think there's a real significant problem with crime and drug abuse in the black community. It's a tremendous problem, as we got to crime and drugs in the black community. The Sonoma Street area has been pointed out as one of the most significant areas in the entire country for drug abuse. We have children. As young as eight, nine years old, up to 15, 16 years old, peddling drugs, making three or four hundred dollars a week, just as runners for drugs. We have prisons filled up from Charles Street to gear out into Whirlpool and all four. Every institution in this Commonwealth is overflowing and there's plans to build more prisons, and most of it originates right in the schools, and it starts out in many instances, from drugs to stolen cars, and then onto more serious crimes such as armed robbery, murder, rape, prostitution, and whatever. Right. Now, of the two-year-old candidate, Mel King and Ray Flynn, which of those candidates

do you feel could best address the problem of drugs in the black community? Well, certainly with regard to the black community, I think the candidate would certainly be able to stem that tie would be Mr. King. And I think he could do a better job overall because he has shown that he's been able to identify with youth. In my organization, I represent the nation of Islam. We have done some extensive research, and we have put together a proposal. And also, we have done some serious questioning about who gets involved in drugs, and it really starts in the schools. It generally starts around the age of 12 to 13. And I think Mr. King's association with youth and his identification with him from the street corners on up. And I don't just mean this in the black community, I mean, it's all over the city. That's the place where you have to start to stop crime. Not with someone 50 or 60 years old, you've got to stop crime, where it starts, and it

starts at children who are just beginning to go into their teenage years. Okay. What about your organization? What is your organization doing in the community to combat child abuse and crime? Well, the first thing that we start out with, we start out with the adults because they're in charge of the children. We have a long record of turning hardened drug addicts and criminals around. Some of the most ardent followers of the honorable Elijah Muhammad and now minister Louis Farrakhan were formed by convicts in prison, were formed by drug addicts. But after we teach them that there's a better way to go, then the majority of them adhere to it. And certainly, if an adult adhere to it, the next place that they do is they go home and they straighten out the youngsters. But we get involved with programs for the youth. We don't feel that a child who gets involved in drugs is necessarily a bad child. We feel that he is just using the energy that he has in a destructive manner and we turn that energy around and use it in a constructive manner.

Great. We certainly need more effort in that direction of turning youngsters around and getting them on and up for the mobile path. Thank you very much, minister Don, for being with us this evening. Thank you. Okay, we'll be right back and we'll have other individuals that we'll be talking to. In a few seconds, as I said, people are still coming in and pretty soon the debate will be starting and we'll have a number of people that we continue to interview. I have with me here, Mr. Ben Hath, who is another community leader. Welcome to this mayoral farm tonight, Ben. Thank you. Good to be here. As you know, the subject tonight is drug abuse and crime in the community and I guess particularly in the black community. What's your assessment? Do you feel that there's a real crime and drug problem in the black community? I would say there's an extreme, a very serious problem of crime and drug abuse in the black

community and we've seen the actions on the part of the black church and many civic organizations coming together to try to deal with the problem. We have a long way to go, but at least we've made a major step in that direction in 1983, which is very important. Well, what do you see ahead in terms of this mayoral election of these two candidates, which would you think would be in a better position to address drug abuse and crime in the black community? Well, I'm very optimistic whoever is going to be elected, either a male, king, or Ray Flynn, I feel both have addressed the crime problem in Boston and particularly in the black community. I would feel comfortable with either person if they were elected mayor because they have

talked about working with community organizations and providing programs for young people so that they won't get into a criminal type of activity. So I just hope that they will live up whoever is elected will live up to what they've been telling the people in the community, okay, all right, what organization do you affiliate with? Well, I've been working with the Roxbury Crime Coalition and I'm a member of the Roxbury Highness Neighborhood Association who has a Austin Patrol working in the community because we have a large Austin problem which is crime, a crime problem and a number of other groups and I've tried to lend what experiences I've had in the crime prevention area because I did work with the Roxbury Multiservice Center for two and a half years in a crime prevention

program there. So I'm here in support of all the groups who are here tonight and to move on to making our community a safe place to live for all of us. Okay. All right, thank you very much. Thank you. All right, people are still coming in and we'll have the beginning of the debate pretty soon, I'm sure, other candidates are not yet here. And we're just sampling opinions of individuals in the audience concerning crime and their feelings about crime in black community. Excuse me, sir. Excuse me, sir. My name is Robert Johnson, we're doing a live taping on W&B FM concerning crime. I'd like to ask you several questions about crime in the black community. Do you feel that there's a stroke problem in the black community? Yeah, okay, sure, you know, if you like talking, that's fine. We have a couple of other young ladies here.

Excuse me, I'm doing a live broadcast on W&B and we're sampling citizen reaction to the problems of crime. I'd like to get your views on crime. Do you think there's a drug problem in the black community? A really bad one. Oh, what's your name, ma'am? Nancy. Nancy. Nancy, yeah. Right. And you think that crime in the black community is caused in some extent by drugs in the black community? Yes, it is. Okay. Now, of the male candidates who are running the mayor, which of those candidates do you think would best be able to address these problems? Mal King. Okay. What about you, ma'am? Mal King, please. Okay. All right. Thank you very much for your comments. Okay. We are talking to individuals here in the station. We have a gentleman here.

How are you doing, sir? My name is Robert Johnson. We're doing a live broadcast on W&B. Yeah. What's your... You feel it's a strong, a bad drug problem in Boston? We've got a severe drug problem in Boston. In the greater Boston area, there are a conservatively estimated 11,000 narcotic addicts. We have one residential detox program east and south of Worcester for that number of addicts in the greater Boston area. There is roughly a six-week waiting list in order to get a detox at that facility. That means that a heroin addict, for instance, we have a habit of $2 or $300 a day, which is an average habit. It's stuck with that habit for 42 days. That's a lot of money. We figure that about a third of people addicted to heroin or other narcotics have to steal

goods to support their habits. We've got 11,000, and that's a conservative estimate. 11,000 addicts stealing the support their habits. You've got 35 people out on the streets stealing the support their habits. Defense value of stolen goods is roughly 20%. So if you have a habit of $200 a day, you've got to steal $1,000 worth of goods. Do your math. $3,500 times $1,000 a day is $3.5 million per day that's stolen in a greater Boston area to support heroin habits. Do you see a definite relationship between drugs and crime in the community? Sure. Drugs are so expensive that people have to commit crime in order to support the drugs. That's just to support the drug habit, not to mention the treachery that's on the street. With people who are desperate for another fix, people that are ripping each other off to get dope. That's why we have a lot of murders, for instance, on the street.

Oh, certainly there are a lot of murders that are as a result of passion and quarrels and fights and that sort of stuff. But I think there are a lot of homicides that are drug-related, bad drug deals and so on and so forth. Somebody got some bad dope thing about and they shoot them. Or somebody gets held up and in the process they get shot. So what do we do about this? We need a multi-pronged approach. We need more detox facilities. We need more treatment programs. We need more prevention programs. Right now, there are very few prevention programs in the city. We need to start reaching the kids about drugs in the primary grades. In high school, very often it's too late. We have a program in a middle school in Roxbury. And by the time the kids in the middle school, they've already got problems. Just a few weeks ago, rather a few months ago, we had a kid that I overheard saying, I don't care if I get suspended.

I don't see why I should stay in school anyway. I can make $600 a day out there. Of course, the $600 a day that he's making is running drugs. People don't know about drugs. The kids don't know enough about drugs so that they don't get into it in the first place. We need more jobs for people. We need better facilities for the kids to learn. Take a look at this auditorium. How many seats would you estimate that... How many seats would you estimate are usable right now? Well, it's hard to say. I'd say maybe about half. Maybe 50% of the seats in a 1,000-seat auditorium. And what kind of seats are there? Oh, there would. That's right. I had the opportunity this morning while I was working on the sound system for this to set in one of these seats for a half an hour. My doctors told me that my blood pressure was fine, but I'll tell you, my legs started falling asleep. There's a very uncomfortable seat. But this is supposedly one of the best auditoriums in the Boston City School system. So we need more resources within the schools as well?

We need more resources within the schools. Okay. We're talking to Mr. Robert Bapcock, who's executive director of the Drug Abuse Counseling Associate. This is W-U-M-B-F-M Boston. We're doing a live broadcast from Jeremiah Burke High School on Drug Abuse in crime in the Black community. This is a may-all form. The may-all candidates have not gotten here yet. So in the meantime, we're talking to various individuals in the audience. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Bapcock, for your comments. Thank you, Robert. Okay. All right, Drug Abuse. As we know, Drug Abuse is an epidemic in Boston. Every citizen is affected by it directly or indirectly. There's an estimated 60,000 individuals in our city who have serious drug problems. So the form tonight is designed to address those issues. And we're glad that you're able to tune in and call your friends and neighbors and tell them the turn to 91.9 on your FM dial. And listen to the may-all candidates discussed this very important issue of drugs and crime in the community.

I think we're going to take a break for a few seconds. And we'll be right back, so stay tuned. And remember, call people and have them tune into WNB FM or have them come by Jeremiah Burke and join in with the discussion. We'll be right back in a few seconds. Black Expressions presents quality music, information, and cultural programming that addresses itself to Black experiences and lifestyles. Black Expressions airs right here on 91.9 FM WNB every Monday through Saturday from 9pm to 1am. News and features with a Black perspective and local emphasis highlighted by jazz, rhythm and blues, and reggae. That's Black Expressions only on 91.9 FM WNB. Keep going.

This is Pat Montaith right now, sitting in for Robert Johnson, who went over to speak to one of the candidates, Ray Flander showed up. I think we're going to go back for another break of about 60 seconds and we'll be right back with you. What's happening in the Black communities of Boston and the South Shore? Find out every Thursday night at 9.35 following Minority Report as Black News Journal highlights the week's most important events and issues. The well enthroned listen to Black News Journal on WNB FM Boston. Listen to us, we listen to you. Glenn Holden of UMass Minutemen for UMass Football Action this season. Stay tuned to WNB FM 91.9 in Boston.

Welcome back to From the Source. I'm your host Robert C. Johnson Jr. We're broadcasting live at Jeremiah Bird High School, a forum called Drugs and Crimes. The drug abuse and crime in the community. And we're waiting for the mayoral candidates to arrive. In the meantime, we're talking to individuals in the audience. I have with me, Mr. Nathaniel Hakeem Asquia, who is Executive Director of First Incorporated, and he's one of the panelists this evening. How are you doing this to ask you? Do you think we have a drug problem in the Black community? Do we have a drug problem? Most certainly think we do. The availability of drugs in the Black community. Is that a very high level? The use of cocaine, heroin, marijuana, alcohol, is more prevalent in there than even 10 years ago, 50-20 years ago when drug problems first came up on the scene in America.

Of course, there's always been a major problem in the drug in the Black community. It's a problem in all communities, but especially in the Black community. What do you think that is? I think basically it's a means of oppression. I think that with drugs being our community now, there's still as much resource in the Black community as it is now for communities. IE, you don't find on the cover policeman here doing anything to try to eliminate the problem. You don't find just any other kind of resources that will help eliminate the problem in the Black community, which tells us that it's still a situation where they are saying that the problem remains there. Now, in terms of the drug problem, would you estimate that it's a problem with soft drugs, like such as marijuana, or is it a problem with hard drugs?

Like cocaine and heroin in the Black community? I think it might start off with soft drugs like marijuana. But I think it's very rapidly end up being hard drugs. The treatment center, the people that come to that program, the majority of them are involved in cocaine and heroin. Can you get addicted to cocaine? Well, if you can't get addicted to it physiologically, but there's definitely a psychological attraction to the drug. I mean, the drug can have such a calamity that people can't really become psychologically dependent upon it. We hear a lot of discussion about cocaine being a drug of a rich. How can people who are in depressed areas or poor areas of poor cocaine? Well, cocaine is so available now that the price of it has somewhat reduced. In other words, when there's a availability in such a high rate as the drug is now the other countries producing it,

mass producing it, because there's demand, then the price of everything has become down. And that's what has happened. Okay, one final question. I'll be to mayor candidates, which do you think would be best equipped to address the issue of drugs and crime in the Black community? Well, that's a question that we're going to try to get answered tonight. But in my personal opinion, based on the form we had before the primers responded best in my personal opinion. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. I guess things are coming together here, and we'll be starting pretty soon. People are still coming in, and we're still waiting for the mayor candidates to come in. There is a panel that will also be addressing these problems. There's a Mr. Robert Babcock on the panel on the Daniel Asquia. You've just heard from him, Mr. Ed and Maynard, and Chris Lee Wood and Jarjet Watson. So we'll be ready to start in just a few minutes.

And as I said, drugs is a major problem in the Black community, as we all know. In 1972, there were at least 23 varied agencies in Boston, administering drug abuse, treatment, and prevention programs. Included in that group were 11 residential programs with a total of over 200 beds to accommodate drug abusing independent persons. There were six 24-hour hotlines, and numerous crisis interventions centers across the city opened until late in the evening. Today, unfortunately, there are only four residential programs with a capacity of 95 beds, one 24-hour hotline, and no adequately funded prevention programs. And another big surprise, there are only 515 detox beds for the entire area, at least in south of Worcester,

with an average of six-week waiting period for addicts needing a detox. So certainly, with those kind of statistics, we certainly have a serious problem with treating drug abuse within the community. And it looks like we're getting pretty close to beginning. Thank you all for coming. One week before the election to discuss two questions of great importance to the neighborhood to Boston. Those two questions are crime and drug abuse. Before we begin, I want to thank all the various people who have worked on making this evening possible. Beginning with all of the programs, the drug treatment and neighborhood crime programs, who are listed on the program for tonight. I also want to thank Al Haaland and Bill Heath of the Burke School

for making the auditorium available to us. I want to thank the mayor's office of handicapped affairs for finding the interpreters who are Dermot Cohane and Jody Court. We want to thank Brother Minister Donald and the Nation of Islam and the Boston Police Department for providing security for tonight. And we want to thank the Usher's, Judy Taylor, Stephanie Hughes, Patricia McAfee, Nancy Mayes, Shirley Furb, Bobby Sims, and Kathleen Langford. The coordinators of tonight's forum are Beta Freeman and Dori Thompson. And I think that's about everybody. We're going to have questions from the audience. The way this is going to operate is, I think everybody has been given a three by five file card. If you have a question that you would like to address to the candidates, please write the question on the file card. Write your name on the question

and write the name of the candidate you want to address the question, too. If you want to address your question to both candidates, put both. The Usher's will collect the questions from the audience in a few minutes and then later on in the program, while the panelists are asking their questions, we will assemble the people whose questions are going to be asked. And those questions will be asked later in the program. But please write your questions down right now and the Usher's will collect them in about five minutes. Well, with that, I will introduce our moderator, whom we're very happy to have with us tonight, Mary Richardson of Channel 5, and Mary will introduce the forum and the candidates. Okay, Gary, thank you. These, as you know, are very exciting times for the city of Boston.

One week from tonight, Boston will have chosen a new mayor, the first in 16 years. And as you can imagine, with six days to go until election day things are getting a bit chaotic, let me assure you, the two candidates both wanted to be with us tonight. It was only a question of who was going to be late tonight. Ray was late Sunday. We understand. Mel was late last night. It's Mel's turn again tonight. He will be here. The problem is, of course, that they have three or four different commitments each night and we're trying to get them here at the same time. But I can't assure you, Mel will be here shortly. We do think that we have arranged our program to iron out some of the scheduling conflicts and to accommodate the time that we have the candidates here together. So what I'm telling you is simply ignore those times that are listed on your program. And let me take just a couple of minutes here to explain the format of the debate. First of all, as Gary mentioned, we will be taking questions from the audience. So if you have any question which you would like to address, either to Mr. King or Mr. Flynn, why don't you write your name on a card right now? You probably got one in your hand.

Write out the questions. And if you look around you, the Oscars will stand up, they'll be in the aisles, and they will collect those questions. If it's a question, you can certainly address a question to both candidates, but you might have something specific on your mind that you would like to know what a candidate is going to do about a particular issue. And if you look around you, the Oscars will be coming down now to collect those cards. Be sure to put your name on them, and in just a little while I'll call out the names of the people whose questions have been chosen. And at that point, if you will go over to the microphone, Bob, let me just quiz you here for a second. Right here, this is the microphone we'll be using for the audience right over here. Right down there. Okay. There's nothing to be nervous about asking a question in public. We're all among friends here, even if it is 100 of them. All you have to do is step up to the microphone. They're even going to give you a card back so you could read the question right off of the card. You don't even have a chance to forget your question if you are feeling nervous.

Okay, now briefly here's how the evening will go. Each candidate will be given two and a half minutes to make an opening statement. Since Ray is here, we're going to let Ray go ahead and make a two and a half minute opening statement. Then we will reserve time for Mel to make a two and a half closing statement, presuming that Mel will be here a little bit longer than Ray since he came later. This statement is a general statement not necessarily regarding tonight's particular topic of drugs and crime. Then our panel of experts will have questions for the candidates. Then we'll take questions from the audience. And finally, when they're both here at the same time, we'll give each candidate the opportunity to question the other candidate for five minutes. And that will of course involve a lot of follow-up questions, and that could be interesting. Let's begin now with Mr. Flynn and his opening remarks. Thank you, Mary. Appreciate this opportunity. I want to thank everybody for arranging this forum here tonight. Let me give you, sorry, we have to leave. Mel will be here shortly, by the way. We just came from another forum. I have to leave at nine o'clock because there is another forum down at Mission Hill.

I have to go there and then I have to do a radio program. But let me say that drugs are a major cause of crime in Boston City, neighborhood, as much as $500 per day in theft to support a $100 day habit for serious addiction. Some of the reasons for drug abuse, joblessness, failure of the schools, poor public housing. Those are just some of the root causes why people resort to dependence on drugs. What will the City do under a plan administration, three points? One, education and prevention, two, strengthening drug treatment programs, three, strengthening the criminal justice system response to drug-related crime. Let me just go back to one. We must use existing organizations, public schools, community schools, neighborhood health centers, and many. Substance of abuse organizations to make youth and parents aware of the extent of drug and alcoholic abuse problems,

available treatment and counseling programs. Part of that coordinate in strengthen positive youth activities programs in the city, to direct youth and to work in activities with a promise for growth. Sports League, summer job programs, community schools, outreach and counseling, the Dorchester Task Force, youth leadership, and prove the public schools. Number two, advocate for resources to retrain and expand the number of treatment spots in the city. Many existing programs have been cut back because of loss of federal funds. And number three, we must train our crime watch program groups to reorganize and to respond to youth and the neighborhoods. Let me stop here for a second and congratulate the drop a dime program in our city that I think is working very, very effectively. We must also, I'm a former probation officer in Superior Court. I worked there for six years. I know this issue. I know the problems of crime in our city.

And what we have to do is we have to coordinate the work of the United States Attorney's Office, the State Attorney General, the FBI and the Boston Police Department through a coordinated team created by the mayor. All right. Thank you, Mr. Flynn. Now we turn to our panel of experts in the field of drug abuse and crime prevention. Let me introduce them to you and panelists. It may not be in particular already or so if you would just raise your hand. Nathaniel Esquia, Executive Director of First Incorporated. Robert Badcock, Executive Director of Drug Abuse Counseling Associates Incorporated. Ed Maynard from Drop a Dime, Stop a Crime. George Et Watson, the Assistant Director, Justice Resource Institute's Crime Prevention Network. And Chris Lee Woods, Director of the Neighborhood Crime Prevention Network. Each panelist will pose a question to the candidate being Mr. Flynn. So I have one minute to respond to the question and then chance for a follow-up from the panelist and a 30-second response from Mr. Flynn. Mr. Gail, let's begin with you.

You've been listening to money talks, talking about lottery wins. Flynn, I'm going to ask this question. Basically, you answered it in your open statement. Then I will follow it with another question. What do you see as a scope of drug-spatched crime problems in the city? And how will your administration handle these problems? You spoke specifically about some things that you would do. I guess the question that would ask you in response to some of your response you made is, do you see the possibilities of pre- and an office of substance abuse to address some of these issues that you raised? We had one in the city, one time, correct? In Boston? No, we never had an office of substance abuse, but we've had one of the mayors coordinating counsels with drug abuse, which is something different. I think that it's actually cost-effective from both a financial and a social point of view, to deal with the issue of crime in its relation to drugs than it is to pay for incarceration of so many of the people who are in our jails and house of corrections and prisons.

So I think that this city must commit its planning and its financial resources into a department into a program that is going to deal with the issue of substantive substance abuse before it becomes a problem when the only alternative to it is jails and prisons. So I want to get at the root of the problem. Follow-up question. To be more specific, you said that you would see, how would you have you thought out a way of planning of establishing such an office? In other words, you say in what's needed, but have you thought out a way of establishing this? Well, I think we have to really seek increased funds from the Department of Public Health, number one.

And I think we have to seek private and charitable foundations money, and we have to commit some city finances as well to create such a department so that they can deal with the problem before it becomes so insurmountable that we lose control of it. Okay, Mr. Badcock, a question? My question is concerned with funding. We have seen very tight budgets on the federal level in recent years with the block grant program. There are continuing reductions in federal money. We are struggling right now just to get a cost of living allowance for the drug programs across the state from the state money. We are expecting terrible struggle in the next year to see adequate funding for programs from the Department of Public Health across the state. Bearing in mind those difficulties, who's the we that you're talking about that will seek those added funds from the state government, the federal government, the private sector as that being the private foundations?

Well, I think we want to first examine the existing sources of funds and how they can be distributed to determine in an effective way the type of services that the people of the city in fact need. I think community development block grant funds is one mechanism. I think the Department of Public Health must provide more funds to deal with the problem in addition to that the charitable foundations of our city. I would like to see a coordinated effort on the part of the mayor's office that being the we to make sure that those funds are available to deal with the problem again to deal with it in its root stages rather than trying to deal with it when it becomes so insurmountable. We lose control of the problem and I think that's what's happening in the streets of Boston now. We're losing control of the drug problem.

I agree with you that we're losing control of the drug problem in the streets of Boston in your opening remarks you saw prevention and treatment as the way to deal with the drug problem in Boston. And in your answer right now you didn't say anything about treatment. I agree with you about the need for more prevention. We need I believe a white spectrum of services. Again, I'm still not hearing though where that funding is going to come from. We're hearing reports that I'm trying to say that I've identified three places again talking about the community development block grant funds which is federal money that comes into the city of Boston each year. The mayor of Boston along with the city council has administrative flexibility to determine how that money is going to be extended usually in the area of $25 million. What I'm talking about is creating within the city locally elected neighborhood councils who then would prioritize how that money should be extended in their particular neighborhood.

And I think that a portion of that money must go for drug treatment in training in prevention. So that obviously is an identifiable concern to neighborhoods of the city. In addition to that, the city is not able to share the burden entirely. The Department of Public Health has a overriding obligation to make sure that they participate in the program. And the various charitable organizations of our city and state also must get involved in this to provide the third source of funding for treatment and prevention. So just very briefly, what dollar amount would you put then of the 25 million? What would you suggest? I couldn't possibly make that determination at this point in time. So I had made a complete assessment of the situation.

So you at this point would have no suggestion as to what dollar amount would be needed. I would just be pulling it out of the year. I would not have a real fear figure to give you. Thank you. All right. Now a question from Ed Maynard. Mr. Flynn, I don't want to be put in any words into your mouth. But on several occasions, I've heard you mentioned that Boston is not adequately protected by the Boston Police Department. And my question has to do with the nature of that problem. If you'd like to expound on that, is it a matter of not sufficient staffing? Okay, milking has just come in. The people have acknowledged his presence. So obviously a supportive audience here. We go back to the debate. Staff, is it a problem of a four day work week? Or is it a problem of funding to add new policemen to deal with actual protection of Boston citizens? Okay, before you answer Mr. Flynn, let me just say we are going to begin enforcing the one minute time restrictions.

Since you were the only one here, we didn't know we will. Oh, sorry. It's a good question. Several answers to that very important question. Number one, the Boston Police Department is under staffed. Number two, there is a need for additional police officers in the city of Boston. I think we need effective deployment of the police officers that we presently have. They must be utilized better so that they're performing more essential crime fighting services rather than administrative chores. And lastly, we do not have the money given the present finances of the city of Boston. Next mayor will face a $20 million revenue problem that he must deal with. And there is not money in the budget at this particular time in order to rehire police officers, but if the future of financially became brighter, one of the first priorities would be to hire more police officers. How about questions? Yes, I do. In essence, Mr. Flynn, are you saying that you would support neighborhood crime watch groups that present that reality to the community?

And I adequately propose to the community that we are not actually getting protection. Let me tip my hat to the neighborhood crime watch program in this city of Boston. I cannot impress upon anybody loud and clear enough that I think, in fact, it's a wonderful way of dealing with the problem of crime whereby the police and the community are working together in order to provide the public safety in the community. That's the sheer way of dealing with crime, a crime, before it starts. The neighbor is working with the police. All right, thank you, Mr. Flynn. And now a question for Mr. King from Georgia Watson. Well, can you get the mic down? Mr. King, you have one minute to respond and then she can ask a follow-up question. You have 30 seconds. Mr. King. As mayor, how would your administration deal with a situation like we had in Sonoma Street where drugs are steepening to the neighborhoods? The first thing is that you would have prevented that from happening.

One way I'm convinced is that we don't have the leadership running our police department. And it's important then that we, as I have said since 1979, that we get rid of Commissioner Jordan. Second, this year, we work with the community group and with leadership between they and the local police identifying problems and then with an accountability mechanism related to the identification of those problems then you can see whether or not the police are on top of the prevention and making sure that people are not subjected to what the people found themselves living under on Sonoma Street. Okay, your time is up another follow-up question. Okay, how would your administration also deal with police buying and abusing drugs?

I think if police are abusing drugs, then they need to get treatment for that problem in the way that other people need to get treatment for the problem. If they are involved in criminal actions with the drugs, then they should be prosecuted like anybody else that is involved. Chris Lee would now propose a question to Mr. Flynn. Mr. Flynn, one reason why the police department can't make a sizable dent in the drug trafficking problem in minority communities is because there's not a single minority officer on the drug unit of the Boston Police Department. Well, what would you do about this as well as any other problems that stem from failures within the police department in order to deal more effectively with drug trafficking?

Well, that's a startling point of view that you just point out so accurately. And that one of the things that I've said during the course of this campaign that the police department and other departments of this city must in fact represent the racial diversity population of Boston. Must have Latinos and people of color, women serving in the police department. There must be put in positions of command authority within our police department. And I think that would see a more sensitive approach, sensitive approach, to dealing with such issues we have in Boston as drug abuse and crimes of violence against women, crimes of violence against elderly and racial crime. So, racial violence.

So, I'm very much committed to ensuring that women in minority people of color are in positions of authority in the crime. Okay, how does that follow up question? I will ask the second part of my first question. What other problems or failures within the police department do you think contribute to its inability to effectively deal with drugs? I think the deployment of the police department, number one in the morale of the police department, is two very serious issues. I think that we've got to get police offices out of the administrative responsibilities that they now consume so much of their time, out into the neighborhoods so that they know what's going on in the neighborhoods. They know the people, the people know them. And the morale problem is a serious problem. We've got to let police offices know that the mayor of Boston is going to stand behind them when they do their job. You should not be promoted because of politics. All right, I'm going to ask now for a list of questioners from the audience, especially since Mr. Flynn only has about 10 to 15 minutes more with us.

And if you hear your name called, if you wouldn't mind getting up and just walking over there to the microphone, they'll put you in order. Okay, we're getting ready to shift the focus here at the Jimmy Burke School V form on crime and drug abuse. We're going to have people from the audience come up and direct questions directly to the candidates. So stay with us, you're listening to WMVF in Boston, 91.9 on your FM dial. This is Robert Johnson, Jr. from the source. And we've heard opening remarks from Raymond Flynn as well as Mel King. And we have a panel of experts who have delivered very incisive questions to the candidates. Are we going back and listen to a few of these follow-up questions before we have the questions from the audience? The Boston Police, Ms. Association and the Commissioner now have a general response to that.

The contract? Yes, the contract that might extend beyond December 83. Well, put it this way. I'm a firm's strong supporter of collective bargaining. I've supported that measurement in the Massachusetts legislature. I think that that measure should be negotiated between the mayor or the police commissioner and the police patrolman's association. I don't think that it ought to be a matter of that is bargained in terms of a political election or concessions or deals made in a political election. I think that's something that should be done in a very responsible management labor relation way. I feel very strongly about that. I went before the Boston Police Patrolman's association. And there were certain requests made of me that I was not willing to concede. And as a result of that, I did not receive the endorsement of the Boston Police Patrolman's association.

But let me say that. A follow-up question? Yes, related to the police for representative King. I've heard you mentioned several times about the successes of the patrol. And I'm rather ignorant about some of those successes. And I wish you would elaborate briefly on their work in Boston. I think it's directly related to the question that was posed before on the effectiveness of the police and dealing with the issue of drugs in Boston. The sole patrol was instituted. All black forth. They went out and were being effective in dealing with crime in this community. And because they were so effective and obviously stepping on toes, they were stuck. As mayor, I'm going to bring back that kind of group because I know they were committed to dealing with the issues in this community in the way that the officers who were responsible were not. And I think it's important to understand also that the root to that is getting again rid of a commissioner and getting one who has a commitment to dealing with the problems of drugs in this city.

Thank you. Again, knowing that we only have both candidates with us for 10 minutes more, I'm going to do very from the program just a minute here and go directly to our audience questions. Beginning with Mr. Stanley Jones. Okay, this is, can you hear me? This is directed at both candidates. This is directed at both candidates. What are your thoughts on dear Allen and Charles Street jail, living conditions and drug treatment services? Because, faith neighborhoods means treatment and prevention. Both of those institutions are out of date and they should be replaced.

One of the interesting things about Charles Street, however, is that there are a number of people who are in there because they can't raise bail. And we need to look at a program that will deal with the problem that they have in raising bail. The City Council and the Mayor's Office, up to now, has failed to come together with a program for either building a modern facility or getting a location. That meets the objections of people that won't be, that won't be objective to buy people in the city. You're out of time, Mr. Clinton. You're, you're response to the same question, Mr. Clinton.

I quite agree that the conditions that the dear Allen House of Correction and the Charles Street jail, particularly the dear Allen House of Correction, are inhumane, R.K. And there should be a commitment on the part of government, whether that be federal money or state money, along with the city money, to improving the conditions of inmates who are confined at the dear Allen House of Correction. My personal choice is that a combined facility ought to be built at the dear Allen House of Correction. I think that a combined facility, I'm talking about the Charles Street jail in the dear Allen House of Correction. I think that it's something that is long overdue. What this needs is a coordinated planning of federal, state, and city departments working together to see that this happens. Our next question is going to come from Neil Shipman. Let me just arrange some microphones differently here. One of those is, Dad, one is working, so you're going to have to share the taller of this too. The question?

This is directed to both candidates. You both have heard the issue of money raised here a whole lot. You both have heard the issue of money raised a whole lot here today. And I want to comment on one thing briefly first, and that is something that was noted in the press release. That is that in 1972, there were 23 various types of agencies in the Boston area that were demonstrating various types of drug services, with the capacity in the residential facilities, particularly of over 200 beds. Today, we only have four residential programs with capacities of 95 beds. Most importantly, we have one hotline, and the service capacity has been cut. Therefore, the question directed is, how will the next mayor work with the state legislature and the federal government to enhance and improve and increase the funding base of drug treatment abuse and prevention programs within the Boston area? Mr. King? Between 82 and 84, the budget of the state division was cut by over 500,000.

Those are real dollar losses. We are going to have to have a strong lobbying effort, working with the different modality, with the legislators, and with people who are in Congress to get the kind of funding cuts restored. Mr. Clinton? People have to understand in our society that it costs more from a financial and social point of view to confine somebody who is a habitual drug offender user. When it is to provide those services that are necessary in order to deter such a situation from happening before it happens.

I think a strong point of view, such as being represented here tonight, whereby you are focusing this major issue into a mural election, is a clear and positive step in the right direction. I think that it behooves all of us to work together to make sure that we become an effective lobbying force collectively in order to deal with raising our voice to the Massachusetts legislature, and through the Department of Public Health, and providing adequate programs to deal with this severe problem in Boston. You are out of time. The next question from Mr. Jabbar, and he wants to direct it to Mr. Flynn. Mr. Flynn? Yesterday evening in a debate at High Park, when asked the question relating to the process by which he would review the actions of police in the cases of brutality in the city of Boston, Mr. King stated that he was in favor of a civilian review board, and you stated last night that you did not have confidence in a civilian review board.

My question to you is, if you do not have confidence in a civilian review board, then who do you have confidence in to review the actions of the Boston Police Department in the case of police brutality? I do not see... I can imagine how a mayor of Boston appointing members of a civilian review board, and then selling them to go out and investigate a particular case and come up with any kind of decision other than one that conforms to the mayor or the person who appoints them. We have had several cases in this city, whereby independent, respected, well-established people in this city have in fact been given authority to make independent judgments and reviews of very sensitive cases such as excessive force of deadly force. I think that a person of strong reputation pointed by the mayor to doing independent, open, accessible investigation, making all the facts known to the public is a better way of doing it.

You're out of time, Mr. Hays, you're satisfied. Next question, Frances Grady has a question for both candidates. Are you listening to WNB FM Boston 91.9 on your FM dial? Please Robert T. Johnson is the anywhere broadcast live future of my broadcast school. Mayoral Formal, Drugs, and so on in the community going back to the discussion. So the question to both of you gentlemen is, do you favor the decriminalization of pot, cocaine, and heroin? Mr. King? I believe that the reality is such that an approach to dealing with decriminalization would be to put it on a referendum question.

I think that people in the city ought to be able to participate in a dialogue where information will come out, which will give people an opportunity to decide one way or the other with respect to them. Since there are people who are on both sides of it, particularly those who believe that one of the best ways to reduce the problem of crime is to follow what took place with alcoholic beverages. Mr. Grady, your turn. I strongly oppose the legalization of heroin, cocaine, or marijuana.

Tell you why. It's a deadly, deadly problem. And legalize something that is killing people in the streets of the city of Boston. On the question of legalizing marijuana. Final question from Dr. Brown. I believe Mr. King may have answered my question but he may choose to expand upon it. The Boston Police Department has not been able to provide the necessary protection in many neighborhoods. Some people, such as myself, think it's time for a citizen or an auxiliary police force in many neighborhoods.

This would give many people an opportunity to work in concert with the Boston Police Department to implement crime prevention activities only with the possibility of working with the youth. Would you support this or some form of citizen participation, such as this, if elected? Mr. Swinley, would you like to answer in before you go? I think that the crime watch programs whereby the police department of this city are working with neighborhood organizations in very efficient, effective way, bringing people together. Senate around neighborhood crime problems is the way to go about it. I don't think that we need any kind of additional auxiliary or vigilance organization. I think what we need here is the police working cooperatively with the various community groups organizations.

We can deal with the issue of crime in our streets effectively and responsibly. Can you stay for the last question for the audience? I'm going to be late for the next one. I really can't. Thank you. Okay, right front end is now leaving to the bay. He indicates he has to go to another appointment. The crowd is very enthusiastic this evening. And they're continuing with the questions directed to Mayor candidate Melvin King. Or if Mr. King would like to make a closing statement, Mr. King had an opportunity to do that at the beginning of the program. And now Dr. Browning your question. This question was originally addressed to both candidates since last Thursday at a health debate. Mr. Flynn raised the issue that Boston City Hospital was providing top-notch health care to the community.

The drug rehab program there and the inpatient service for the drug addicts that come into Boston City Hospital and needs significant funding. I'd like to know from Mr. King what he plans to do in terms of increasing the funding for the drug rehab program at Boston City Hospital. I think at City Hospital we need to establish based on the demographics, based on epidemiological analysis, what the overall needs and to come up with a budget that reflects reality. And that is the approach that I think has been missing with the drug rehabilitation program because it is not seen as a part of the overall health needs and issues.

Particularly as the budget comes out of the City Council because there isn't the advocacy for it there. And so when cuts are made in that budget then it doesn't have the priority. I think that a place where we can push to get the additional resources. I think you have to get beyond just looking at what's in the city because there are limited resources. 25% of the people served at City Hospital particularly in the emergency area are people who don't live in a city of Boston. So the state has some responsibility because City Hospital provides a regional service. I think that's a place where you get additional support. And that support allows for building back the programs at City Hospital to a much better level of service and effectiveness. Thank you, audience, for your questions. Now we go back to the panel.

Bob. Thank you. Mary, I know that you're quite aware of the drug abuse problem in the city of Boston. And the past I've had clients that I've controlled with you are on clients that you've known about and you've been helpful in helping those people make changes. But the last candidate forum that we had that you came to was specifically on drug abuse. And at that forum you said you will work with all parties who can help make Boston a drug-free city. Would you explain what parties you're talking about and how will you work with those parties? One of the needs obviously is to deal with the different modalities that are working with people on drugs and who have been abusing because their objective is to get people off of the use of drugs. The second part of that is recognizing that there's a need for the kind of education for the young people in the school.

And so you work with them on the issue of drug use and drug abuse. Next is dealing with the issue of the kind of access that people have to it. And that's where I think that you begin the process of prevention at the level where you get the sole patrol revised. And then the next part is working with the groups of people in the community who have the kind of information that they can get to the police. I think the other part is to get a process with the police where there is a sharing of information. It doesn't appear as if the problems that exist in one part and what kinds of things are going on of the city are shared with people.