From the Source; Boston's New Immigrant

We're back here now at that to be un BFM Boston. My name is Hayward black lead you to listening to from the source. Tonight I guess. Yeah. The public safety expert for the Executive Office of Public Safety than album of sado director of the English as a Second Language Program here at UMass Boston graduate program and a friend for winter. The director of the multi cultural goals Services Department of Mental Health. John thank you in for coming to from the source. Thank you. I'm going to ask a number of questions as we go through this hour and we hope our listeners will call in on our telephone line which is 9 2 9 7 9 2 9. That's nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine. I mean host Haywood Blackledge here on from the source. And we'll be talking about issues problems solutions and successes of recent immigrants in the United States. Gentlemen I think we should look at the at the larger situation and I'll let anyone jump in that wants to start. But we're specifically do we

feel that our new immigrants are coming from and for purposes of this purposes of this discussion. I think we're referring to new immigrants being maybe what we would call the last wave of immigrants possibly 10 years ago immigrants have come as recently as 10 years ago. Where are the immigrants coming from a friend by coming with the money. Hundred 20000 30000. Most of the people are Haitian Central American East Asian and some from Eastern Europe. Here in 97 you know you're using 70 or so years. So we have. A rather large number. That appears 30000 is certainly not a negligible number of that number.

What figure do you think came in with the requisite skills to participate immediately in so-called democracy. There's tremendous variability with a lot of the Eastern European immigrants. There was there was what's called a brain drain. And we have a lot of people that are technicians a lot of people that have had some schooling in the issue with a lot of the Central American nation and Southeast Asian individuals especially with the last group came in we do not have as many people that have professions as opposed to just being laborers or Marmor So basically people from the country that have that have come forth again for political asylum religious freedom etc.. Economic problems and economic issues in their own countries.

I know it's difficult to join hours but there are. And anyone can answer this question but what would you assume the literacy rate of 30000 to be generous is very low. The reason is that most of the intellectuals were killed during a communist regime especially in Cambodia from 1975 to 1979. The Khmer Rouge Pol Pot was responsible for the death of about half of the population of the Cambodians which is before the fall of Cambodia in 1975 eight millions. So four million is assumed to be killed and died from starvation and disease. And most of the people who are killed by the Khmer Rouge wordly people are well educated at least have some high school degree.

And and that's a reason why you know literacy rates among the refugee especially the Indochinese refugee from from Cambodia Vietnam and Lao in particular Cambodian refugee very low the number that doctors refer to about 30. Thousand Indochinese refugee It seemed to be low to me because that number is recorded. But we have a problem dealing with secondary migration so call me a foreign first and second degree murder a secondary migration a group of refugee who move from other state to Massachusetts and for the past five years the double of the 30000 who move into Boston near you because simply that message she said has a lot of charms and people moving into Massachusetts from all over the country from California and from Utah Georgia and South

Carolina North Carolina Virginia. Any any state at all you name it. A lot of people move into here. I'd like to pick up on something for a second. We talked so much about the literacy rate and the education level of some of the people that have come here. I'd like to direct this question to the now. And I say to the director of the English as a Second Language graduate program here that although what particular problems as an educator Do you have to address when we have such large populations that are that are not literate in their language and I remind our listeners that we're listening to WNBA FM Boston ninety one point nine our telephone line is nine thousand nine hundred seventy nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine seven thousand nine. If you have questions of any of our guests or of your host I would like that doctor Macedo. Well first of all I would like to first contextualize the issue of literacy literacy and I think it's in the shoe.

That's pertinent only to immigrants. And I mean if we take notice of what's happening in United States we have about 60 million illiterates. But once we accept that notion it's a problem that we have to deal with for educators it's quite complex and it's doubly complex when you deal with immigrants that come to the United States without any ability to speak English and try to make them literate in a second language that they do not understand. But equally when they are not not even literate in their own language. So if I can cut you off just a second that the the illiterate people that are here. Are are what we what we used to refer to as functional illiterates that is they can do tasks and do certain jobs and possibly that the that the that the immigrant population is less functional.

I'm not so sure about that. OK. That's that's what we that division is not really so clear in. And it's can be sometimes bleeding and you can also give rise to the stereotypes that we want to avoid and this is that's why we have this program. Sure. I don't the educational problems has to be viewed in a more global. Context we have educational problems Boston public schools than we have that we know that over 50 percent of the student population you know. And dropping out and particularly in a city which is considered a Mac of intelligence in United States. So then you're talking about a shocking number of myths exactly to shift the blame to shift the plot problem to the immigrant community. It may not be the best way to approach the issue but nevertheless one should not

ignore that the problem is quite complex and it is quite complex particularly when in this society particularly in the Boston area and elsewhere there's a tremendous movement against you know bilingual education and bilingualism which is a reflection of sort of as you see no phobic attitudes that the immigrant community must confront. How has this sentiment against. English is a second language. If I perceive your your statement correctly. How does it manifest itself and what or how do we see it in day to day life as you are as an educator I'm sure see it all the time but how would one of us exist. Some you see it even reading this well you see it you see it very clearly. Let's begin with the school setting and the type of cool school culture I'm talking about the dynamics of the interaction in a school

context. How for instance immigrant involving the children that read it for instance. In many contexts you find bilingual classrooms in the basement in old bathrooms and things of that nature. They have less resources. Teachers are not just well trained qualified. The state of Massachusetts for instance does not consider building education a disciplined. By that I mean for instance you don't have a certification bilingual education but you do have one in English the second language. And that creates a great deal of problem because you know it affects the training of teachers in that you can't really train teachers as effectively as you would since they're not required to have a certification that many school system may end up with non-qualified bilingual teachers because they're not required to have the necessary competency at least by law. There would police the necessary competencies for them to be effective in addressing the educational needs of the spotty lation that

you're talking about. What is the current reading of the law as to how people are students who don't have English as a primary language or are treated. Well the the the the current reading of the law is that in any system that you have 20 students who do not speak English should receive initial instruction in their native language but that is not the case in most instances and in fact I think most schools districts in Massachusetts in some way or another in no violate that law constantly because I do not feel that we have. The policing power to make sure that the system I found in noncompliance and even when they do it's not really clear that the problem is remediated immediately let me give you an example I was some educators from Cambridge approached Haitian educators approached me recently and they wanted to have a meeting to see what we could do to solve a

problem certain schools in Cambridge Public Schools were Haitians. Because of the illiteracy rate among the student population. Were dealt with in a manner that was far less effective if they had been instructed. For instance in the native Creole which is the Creole and because of the lack of success and other you know discipline problems that is a result of not adapted to the school culture. These students often refer to special needs programs or special education programs and most of them are in fact not special in the cases they just happen to end up in special needs program because the system is not equipped to deal with their education. I don't want to seem concerned. We used terms interchangeably like special needs and special education standards are. What you're saying is and correct me if I'm wrong

is that these people that don't speak English are being relegated to classes were people were students are perceived correctly or incorrectly as slower learners and people that have developmental problems learning and people that have genetic problems etc. etc. etc. while in fact they can be as intelligent and as quick learners if they were to be put in the proper setting. So what we have is a system and we will get off the subject soon it's an intriguing one. But we have a system that apparently has a lot but has very little teeth and I wouldn't. Well I think. In all fairness we should say that that we have gained tremendously by the law. Chapter 7 1 8 and. But it's not a perfect law and there is a lot that has to be done particularly with the problems of illiteracy that we're talking about. OK.

I'm going to refer to refrain from my days as the director of multicultural services at the Department of Mental Health and ask you Dr Fuentes how does the situation of being an immigrant child or adolescent affect one's mental health in their gradual development the picking up were done although left off there that they're possibly put in classes where they're where they're where they're perceived to be slow learners. Again I think we're talking about perceptions. It used to be that when you spoke of a bilingual child a bilingual person it was a positive trait a positive quality. More recently in the last five eight 10 years bilingual bilingual education a bilingual child is seen as deficient.

As not having the dual kind of quality of Spanish English English whatever. And it's amazing how that perception has changed over the years to a negative deficiency as opposed to a positive quality and I tend to think that again because often times because of racism prejudice etc. and self-fulfilling prophecies I think often times people do not expect as much from a bilingual child or a minority child as say what a non minority child. And that again if a child perceives that that individual has lower standards of him or her they will likely have a lower kind of output or lower productivity. So most of that involves a self-image motivation separatist that is borne itself out and most research that the expectation of the student for instance is that he will graduate from high school and it's likely that he will graduate from high school me and that if you

want to go on to college you know what the guys were from high school for instance and so forth and so on which results and. The inability of a large group of people to progress at least within the education sector. I don't think that we need to lower the standards and that's what how people interpret that that we can keep the same standards for bilingual children etc. and they can do just as well with the proper support and the encouragement and again not having that self fulfilling negative prophecy. We talked a while ago about the numbers of people and we've had those numbers and Massachusetts I would assume that we've had them. In the in the West certainly in my knowledge in Seattle and San Francisco and Los Angeles certainly and south. Certainly in the Southwest San Antonio and Miami to the south. Georgia was

mentioned that there were large numbers of people out there. I wonder for you. For the benefit of our listeners what the official response to these large numbers of people coming into the country this time what the why the official response I mean what what's the response of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. The person this perception again and using that word is always been this country's been open and it's and it's the land of opportunity. Give us we had a great celebration over over the summer with the grand lady there in the harbor in New York. And I know many people felt differently about it then than others and I'd like to add another benefit that I'd like I'd like for our listeners to have the benefit of your thinking on that what is the official response and and is it an appropriate one.

And I'll let anyone jump in. For me I feel that rather roughly speaking from the public safety expert at the Executive Office of Public Safety that's the state of Massachusetts for the rest of us. I'm working directly with the refugee community from India China and for me I feel that the door it's a slam in the face of the Indochinese refugee who right now quarter of a million will still remain in the border in a refugee camp along the Cambodian border. And the reason that they not allowed to come to United States anymore because of the definition of refugees that defined by the Refugee Act of 1980 the Refugee Act of 1980 say that refugee Poston free of of persecution because of race and religion and politics and.

And there's a Vietnamese woman with her two children and with the brother and niece waiting for four years in a refugee camp in Thailand and her husband he is in the state and she her application to come to the United States to join with her husband rejected on the basis that she's not defining you know this kind of this kind of evidence show that the United States is shutting the door and Indo-Chinese refugee and limited numbers and strict and tough tough change for that. That brings us to a larger issue this is again I remind our listeners is WM BFM Boston 1.9 our telephone line is nine thousand nine hundred seventy nine thousand nine hundred seventy nine. The larger issue I'd like to address here is

throw it out as a question is part of it's been answered but I'll throw it out anyway. Is there a disparity between the way immigrants from different countries are treated. Some of a rhetorical question admittedly but but is there a disparity I mean there are people from Middle Eastern countries treated differently from people from Asian countries versus from South American countries versus from from Canada or Mexico and so on. A friend for one I don't think there's no question that with the recent immigrants from Southeast Asia Central America they've been treated dramatically different about Southeast Asia are not as specific as we would like to be but but if you could address the issue of people from South America from South America from Central America there's no question that because a lot of people from developing countries are seen in a very subordinate a different way than people that are were originally coming from from Europe

because of prejudice racism. It definitely affects the assimilation in the acculturation of that group. But how does that how does a board Bert's off out an official party. I think that there are quotas and national origins act. Yeah that's what I was oh yes yeah but also you have to look at this in terms of from a historical perspective there has been the case. Alois you know you know the policies favored Nart in Europeans immigration over you know sodomy to a penis in Africans and people from Latin America and also it has to be linked for instance with our political relationship with various countries and I think the policy here would be one that would be quite open for any so-called refugees leaving Moscow to want to come to United States would have the basis for that. The bases that you know they have no freedom in the Soviet Union so this

tremendous amount of games were kind of what kind of case where they make say to the immigration national Naturalization Service while for instance Look look for instance with the situation of various Jewish. Immigrants coming to United States. Yeah exactly and I don't I'd at least I don't perceive them as having that type of problems that the Haitians are having still locked up in various you know concentration camps you know in still in the United States. The nuns and I'm referring to the boat people and I'm also referring to you know to the Cubans that. Are still locked up and who are not provided you know what to do process that we all enjoy in the United States which really question the the our democratic principles in to the extent that to some group it will if it applies and others it does not apply. And so if you really look at the background the social economic background of these people and the political context from which they come.

And and you see that the policies tend to discriminate. Against certain groups and not against favor other groups. That's very clear to everybody I think that that is an issue. So you're saying it's almost a function of what our relations ships are with the with the. Places from which these people are coming from but not all the way not only partly but also it's partly a function of the certain economic realities in certain periods throughout our history. And when we need to have a great number of laborers then cheap labor immigrants you know will fulfill that function. You know it happened to the Chinese when we're building the rail system in the United States and certainly among blacks we could make it when they were no longer needed there would be shipped back in and there were laws regulating you know the immigration of Chinese into the United States. That still goes on. I mean yeah there's not there's a process whereby Africans can work in this country for a short period of time take some money out exactly at home.

Exactly and but I don't think we're doing it as overly as we did them in the past. And we do it in more comfortably but I think the impact is still there. Yeah I mean I my sense is that if it happens at all there's a problem. But that's my own perspective. I'll remain neutral. Given that there's a disparity between the way that some people are treated by the Immigration and Naturalization Service and their acceptance or non-acceptance in this country is there to either disparities and other I mean and I mean systematic systematic disparities and how they're treated once again. We talked earlier about how the legal system may not be as effective for for recent immigrants as others. And I'd like you to respond to that anyone if you if you feel such that the legal

system is as is as it stated is intended to be to treat everyone equally. Is that a matter of fact in your experience or are there as many problems with those systems. Yes Frank I guess I can only speak for the Department of Mental Health and what he offers them for a lot of people right right. A lot of the office of multicultural services is very clear in the sense that there are different models different ways to approach a different individual as opposed to a dominant culture individual you have to have a different approach. You have to have different models different theories on how to deliver that service. And what we're attempting to do is modify or accommodate to the different cultural groups so they that they can receive adequate mental health services. Can you give us an example of that for instance post-traumatic stress. You have you find it with a lot of SE areas with a lot of Central Americans. They have

experience a lot of trauma a lot of war in their own countries. And once they come here a lot of people don't necessarily. We do know from a lot of Vietnam vets how to work with that illness with that diagnosis. But that's an issue that is very pretty inherent in developing countries or war torn countries and we have to be able to work with these Indigo choose individuals in an appropriate way. How how successful are we to the extent that you can. They were limited in the sense of the we were barely beginning to develop the resources the experience the technology if you will with dealing with some very kind of it's not a new phenomenon it used to be called shell shock people coming back from war to words just describe a shell shocked. And that's now PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder causing sleeplessness. A lot of problems within the family domestic violence etc. etc.. Again using

the Vietnam vets as an example and a lot of Southeast Asian and Central Americans even people from Haiti it's there's a lot of repression during the Duvalier government. So there are some issues with that. We talked more specifically about law enforcement. The possible treatment that immigrants get at the hands of the law and courts. Would anyone like to respond to that I mean I have many thoughts on it. I can only speak with going back to my experience with the Department of Corrections and it was very unfortunate that you could see that there was not a number of the number of people in Massachusetts the demographics did not necessarily correspond with the demographics within the Department of Corrections.

So so what you're saying is people are represented in larger numbers and exactly it's a man explained Hispanics and blacks are represented in large numbers in jail than they are in the population generally. And that again that's a clear sign that somehow the system is not responding Why is it that there's a disproportionate amount of individuals I mean you could probably have a lot of people say well it's it's genetics that which Yes I mean someone might just say you know blacks still more Hispanics. Why more of the court passing checksumming What was your response to that when you put it in a question I mean that's foolishness to think that way that there's a problem within the system that somehow the system is not being responsive to a large segment of the population. Or again you could go and say that there are other external factors that contribute to that poverty culture ration about crime rates as your counsel. Exactly exactly which in lay terms means how good your years and

what kind of justice you can buy. Also your ability to dialogue with their counsel and to the courts for instance with or certainly with the US English movement for instance law that was just passed in California one of the things that they try to do is to make sure that the courts are these people these immigrants are not represented or they cannot use the native language you see to defend themselves and which they have then to rely on interpreters that in most cases may not be equipped to interact with legal terms and in most. And this will work against the immigrant in most instances it will work against the ability. So you have a group Yeah so this is this legislation was passed in California is another evidence that. One could expect you know an increase in the jail population among Hispanics in the southeast. Immigrants in that state. If that is to happen in Massachusetts the same will occur and will probably happen

very soon in Florida which does tremendous push to get to the main date that the courts do not utilize Spanish for instance for legal defense. And in cases where the Hispanic cannot communicate in English and it's so it's a tremendous problem I think. I don't know if this is always going to be a problem given the demographics of this country are changing and hopefully hopefully it won't but let's discuss that after we come back from break I remind you this is WNBA FM Boston ninety one point nine. This is from the source you're host to say would Blackledge we'd like you to call in in 1999 tenure on the power there will cut us off and we're back in a minute. Hello this is Dr. Bowen. There are a lot of lies about cocaine. One is it's not addictive. Cocaine may be the most addictive of all drugs in a classic study is Joe's

cocaine over food water or sex. They worked only for cocaine until they were starved went into convulsions or died. Cocaine has a similar effect on humans long after it stops giving them the high it once did. Addicts crave it. They do so in spite of the fact that it has physically emotionally and financially devastated them. Cocaine is addictive. Hundreds of thousands of found they could not kick it without help. If you or someone you know needs help to get off cocaine call 1 800 6 to 8 LP respect they're going to pick you focus. I'm drunk if you can. Students You can hear black perspectives every Wednesday evening at 9:30 pm right here on ninety one point nine.

Listener support. Can blind people hold competitive jobs. You bet. But we can't unless we have a chance to try. This is why the blind of this country of organized you can help too. For more information call your local chapter of the National Federation of the blind or contact me. Kenneth Jernigan President National Federation of the blind 18:00 Johnson Street Baltimore Maryland 2 1 2 3 0. Welcome back to from this source this is your host Hayward Blackledge. You're listening to WM BFM Boston ninety one point. A telephone line is nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine its ninety nine 799. And this evening we're discussing the problems of recent immigrants issues facing them and hopefully some solutions. And I think we will talk quite a bit about some of the myths surrounding our immigrant populations. Our guest is a public safety

expert from the Executive Office of Public Safety. Who is the director of the English as a second language program a graduate program here at UMass Boston. And a friend for Wednesday she was director of multicultural services at the Department of Mental Health. Welcome back gentleman. We were talking about war and force and ability or inability for linguistic minorities to get competent counsel and how they can deal better with the courts and public safety expert says. Specific to say it's a very difficult for a refugee when they come here and that then has to deal with the law enforcement agency and law enforcement officers. Their main setback is that the criminal justice system in Cambodia was quite different from what it is in this country in Cambodia. You are guilty until proven innocent

while the American English system here in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. So when we you know so when a refugee saw the perpetrator that got arrested by police and then back on the street the next day their assumption was the police take bribe in and or they said it well because they are white and they let their own people goes in and then this is kind of a this kind of misconception about police officers that that really throw them off in reporting crime and cooperate with the police and and that so. Need somebody that OK. Education is it's an important role in doing that trying to educating the refugee community or making awareness of the system that is different in this country and this country and also to make a positive MHL police officer in this country and to creating trust

among the refugee community of the law enforcement agency and at the same token we would like to creating awareness among the law enforcement officers to how to be sensitive and be aware while other things to look for when it was a victim and then they had to handle the case that involved refugees. Pardon my cynicism but it seems like the former will happen before the water that is your population is likely to become sensitized and understand the system before the system becomes sensitize and understands them. And I guess my question is What do you do in the meantime. Because we've seen most recently in review. Correct. Very. Horrific case of violence first motivated violence against recent immigrants Asian immigrants and we don't I don't see

a real clear end to that and I don't see a very cogent response from the law enforcement community. I hear a lot of lip service but I don't see a lot of it and I know you represent the state I want to throw it all at you. But please respond. Yes I would like very much to say that it's a long way and it's there's a long way to go in order to I mean to deal with this problem. And I think a lot of people concerns about that and everybody try to do just that to try to to make the law enforcement officers understand that and change and remember that. People really don't like to change. And part of a part of the problem is I say that discrimination among the law enforcement officers some of the officer may make racial remarks about refugees. Some may

say some stupid things about the refugees. Someday when they we call when we call in for help and they do not respond it's probably I say it could should be. I guess I have trouble with the difference between the stupid remark and the insensitive one. When in fact that they should should be working for us. But that's OK as you say it's a problem that's way off. And I think things are being done about it. But there are there are but I'm very very slow and at the same time we just try to to get as many people as we can to help us out pushing in change through the process. What about the problem of and I know this exists through through actually through some of our work together. The court system very often what we know

as racially motivated crime is simply an assault battery or as simply a malicious destruction of personal property as we call it when in fact we know it's done because of of the color of our skin or the way we talk. For those kinds of reasons. Is there anything in place anywhere that addresses something is as I should say subtle is that usually the opposite doesn't have the ability to handle the racial motivated or at least they are not being trained in that you know you have to sense a tie to to see the difference is that this is a racial motivated incident. But now I see cases more. Happen they put in a section of the training for police officers to have civil rights training for police

officers to be sensitive sensitive to and can see different there. This is a case of racial motivated incidents. And more and more training had been done from the state level through local local police officers. The case that you mentioned in review. Attorney General's office with other Boston Police Department the CDU help together team up and have a workshop on awareness of refugees and these kind of workshops being provided. The more important the important part is that I should say the problem is that when the police department did not realize that they have a problem in dealing with racial motivated. So sometimes they say we don't have any problem. We know how to deal with before we have a racial problem in this country. Yeah you know and that's really good although you know as a

swimmer I think you are on target when you mentioned that we don't have any problem or I think the the major problem is the denial process that we do not know. This also happens in education and for instance you you with all the education reforms there have come out in the past six months or so and they talk about. Management. They talk to my doc about increase in pay. They talk about this increase in pay for for teachers for instance which is done which is generally you know they talk about more training they talk about going back to basics. But they very seldom you know discuss the school culture. They very seldom discuss the racism that permeates the school's culture. The racism for instance you know between practice by the teacher against the very students of the church would be what would be a subtle example of

racism and well let me give you an example for instance take the Haitian case that I had mentioned before you know how can you explain that you know a huge population of Haitians and up in special education programs. That's that's that's one good example. You know that's one good example. But you know going back to the lying far enforcement you know one you deny that the problem exists so you don't do anything about it too. When you have large communities with Southeast Asians for instance pockets of immigrants or Hispanic communities or Haitian communities given in communities you know the black so black communities I ask then you can ask the following question How many Cambodians you know police officers. Do you have because not a question so much of sensitizing the American police officers to deal to community. I think you have to have people they can understand the cultural difference you know the psychological makeup of the Cambodians. They can then in turn you see be in the forefront in dealing certain cases.

And that goes for virgins for Haitians and for Hispanics as well. I see very little being done in the Boston law enforcement to increase the minority party linguistic minority population in these agencies. So then we end up as you said with lip service you know and the problem will continue because on one hand with the knight on the other hand because when I would do very little and then the problem persists. I raised this issue before we took a break. But is there a solution anywhere in the demographic trends in our country. Our members are child and in Florida there are a number of. Hispanic people mostly from Cuba were in Miami and I went back 10 years later and and there are so many more. And then so many more later on I've come to know is there going to be a time in your sense the demographics in this country where these problems are going to be ameliorated simply by the numbers that is that the knowledge that there will be

numbers of policemen that are representative of the population simply because that's where that's where the policemen are going to come from. Well yes most definitely and I think this is without a forseeable future yes. Yes for instance if the districts are correct you know by the year 2001 the United States will be what I think 50 percent Hispanic population you know and I think this is one of the major reason that you know the U.S. English movement only you know has been created with a huge budget over two million dollars to pass legislation that English will be the only official language of a particular state and they aims that all the states in United States will have English as the only official language. For instance in California in Monterey Park community there has been tremendous amount of attention that the English speaking community resents and is putting various type of pressure to not allow immigrant and minority businesses to display

sign a letter saying Chinese for instance. If you deny me so or so you do have you do have a sense at least I can perceive a sense that the English speaking community a feels somewhat threat by by by trend and and I'm not so sure that making English the official language will solve the problem I don't know that and in fact can we envision a political scientist for a second year green vision a situation where there will be a backlash that is that the majority population or the population that is 50 percent of the population generally that is nonwhite will be on the opposite end of the stick. Come the year 2000 and that and that without the kinds of remedies we've suggested tonight that we will have a situation where things are reversed and people will not have very much sympathy for each other is that likely to happen.

We have to see a change in power from from one group to another in order for that to happen not just numbers but that might mean I think that I do not think that I will see in my lifetime. Yeah I think what you have to the situation will change radically and and how radically and what direction will take I'm not so sure. But you cannot minimize the impact that 50 percent of this country will be speaking Spanish and as much as I'd love to agree with my guess. For instance in certain counties in in the south where once people were not allowed to vote we had Darley white municipal officers and constitutional officers in the state were now you have almost entirely black counties. So while your vision to us is way off and my vision is not far away at least in that place so we can possibly envision it.

Let's let's look at this in a different way we've looked at a lot of the negative aspects of. Of the of the immigrant situation and it's certainly a complex one and not one that can be dealt with in an hour. We understand and we hope we can persuade the powers that be here to have a further discussion this and specifically the implications of the new immigration law. But I think there is a there's a myth that exists that I think we have to discuss and that is that the fear of the present majority population is that for every black that comes in at that is a black person and takes a job it takes a job away from a white person and takes money away and takes services away and takes everything away and and the and the white population feels at a disadvantage. Is that in fact true. And and.

I understand with with immigrant populations The problem is that they think people come in and they are an economic drain on local communities certainly this is been a problem the southwest and in California we've already cited that. Or is it is in fact just a wash. Yeah I would like to talk to Southwest. There are a lot of studies that indicate with a lot of undocumented individuals that one of the reasons they've been able to control inflation in a lot of service areas hotels restaurants etc. is because of the low wages basically have an entire market of individuals that will not demand high wages etc. when Lee Iacocca took over one of the first things that he said is the wages have to go down. You guys are out of control. So again that's the and both extremes. You're able to produce a product deliver a product at a reasonable rate because you have a whole number of people that are able to just say

I'll work 10 15 hours for a very minimum amount of money. Additionally other studies indicate that a lot of the undocumented individuals don't access a lot of the social services. Consequently they pay taxes but they don't fill out the. Social Security Yeah the tax refunds etc. so you have an entire industry that's been based on undocumented individuals. Is there anything unique about the mentality of saying immigrant from. Cambodia or from Haiti or anything that that makes them special contribute towards to this to the society documented around I think that what we've been focusing on have been the differences a lot of the refugees a lot of the immigrants that are coming in are coming with the American ethics

the American kind of thinking hard work strong values strong family kinship that's sort of those strong cultural values that the original Americans were coming for I mean freedom etc. and you can see a real strong willingness to to survive and do well. What do we have this perception on some people's part that people coming in to collect welfare come in for social programs and coming for missions that distorted you know just to get away from from from bad economic situations in the country. Is there any truth to this. There's this. There's no truth to that. I think people who say that they tend to try to blame about their failure on someone else for example the Indochinese refugee came and they worked

very hard to jobs and be able to save money and pooled money together and buy new car. So then their neighbors see that and say that how could they just been here two years and bought a brand new car. They the government must give them new cars so that they go in and you know the government gave them you know I don't know really for I don't know. I heard about the cars were getting from the government the government gave them no cards this is a myth and then. And then they take welfare I think I think it's not a very it's not very true but not just very true but they use that as an attacked on the new immigrant and they've forgotten. And they feel that because they feel guilty seeing they were working in new immigrant working so hard and save money and while looking at themselves they have a whole problem you know and themself dealing and they name don't want to go to work not not working.

A lot of people see that and I think just a threat to them. Threat to someone's masculinity. They couldn't go out and do the same thing. You can just kind of speak. Historically Americans have always speaking psychologically have had an identity crisis beginning from day one. They had to ostracize oppress the Quakers because they felt that these people were weird and strange. We don't want to be like them. And throughout history there's always been a group that's been oppressed over the years the peril centers McCarthyism during the Nixon period it was the public enemy number one. Exactly during the Iranian period there's only been a people a series of. Unfortunate to come to a conclusion

and the only way you can clear your identity or affirm your identity is by oppressing someone else. But could you mention something that looking on the bright side there's only you know portion of people who made all these. Negative myths about immigrants but we do acknowledge good good numbers of our neighbors who really understands for example interview there's a principal of elementary school who can identify with refugees problems and struggle because he himself at one point was an immigrant himself. So those kind of people contribute a lot to integration of the refugee in their life in this in this country. And those kind of people are instrumental and beneficial to the refugee resettlement Esq Which begs the question where did all of us come from.

Those of us that were here before and those who are serving here now. What you're saying is some people have forgotten something we forgot that they were once good go to get. This was like the last word the night of the banks and it's easy to forget you've been listening to from the source. I'm your host David Blackledge. I guess this evening I've been right for you know the public safety expert from the Executive Office of Public Safety an album a sado the director of English as a second language program a graduate program here at UMass Boston offering for one thing. He's the director of multicultural services at the Department of Mental Health. As we said earlier in this program we don't pretend to be able to get to all the issues and all the solutions and hopefully we'll have a subsequent program on some of the substantive issues of the law. But for now thank you for listening to from the source. This is your host Hayward Blackledge. You've been turning to from the sources feeding.

This is Joe fresco reminding you to tune in each Sunday morning from 6:00 until 10:00 for acoustic sunrise a Sunday morning filled with music to wake up to. Right here on listener supported public radio at ninety one point nine FM or WNBA FM in Boston.