Biography Hawaiʻi; Ruth Keʻelikolani; Interview with Kalena Silva 11/22/03 #1

I'm going to try not to, you can burp when she's asking you a question. Thank you Joy. Remember that. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. Oh, damn. Okay, okay. I'm ready today. Okay. Okay. If you could, could you tell us what Paul Noah is in the context of Ruth's birth, how it might have been looked on? Mm-hmm. Well, it appears that Princess Ruth gave you a call, and he Princess gave you a quote. Oh, I'm just not. Okay. Let me just start all over again. Okay. Okay. Generally, the term Paul Noah refers to a child that has been born of two fathers. And traditionally, that wasn't looked upon as a bad thing. Basically, the idea behind that was that a child born in this manner was of uncertain parentage.

And yet, in the case of Evikolani, where the possible fathers were of high rank and were politically well placed, and genealogically well placed, why the whole idea of this uncertainty was actually worked in favor of the Princess, in that traditionally, the idea of Paul Noah also included the favor carried on both sides, that is, from both fathers. And so, Kahleia, who was one of these, and of course, Matayo Keikuonawa, who was the other of the fathers, or supposed fathers, not sure who was actually the father, why we see that traditionally then, the thinking was that the kinds of favor that could be carried on either side would be helpful to the Princess in her development as a leader, and as she took responsibility for the kinds of things that she eventually had to take responsibility for,

socially and politically. Okay. Let me see. Okay. Okay. What is Paul Noah, and then the context of Ruth's birth, how would that have been looked on? Yes. Well, a Keiki Paul Noah is a child of uncertain parentage, in the case of Princess Elie Colony, why the uncertainty was on the side of her fathers. And traditionally, this Paul Noah status of a child was not considered a drawback, but in fact, it was considered a plus or a good factor in the birth of the child because of the fact that both sides of the family, both fathers, that is, and their families, would be supportive of this child. And so, in the case of Princess Elie Colony, why Kahleia and Keikuonawa were the two fathers in question,

and both of them with their respective families provided the kind of support that she would need in order to assume the kinds of responsibilities socially and politically that she ended up finally assuming. Great. Oh, it's a great answer. Okay. It sounded better. Sorry. Okay. The next question is, what kind of chief do you think Kahleia and Helena wasn't? And how do you think she might have influenced Kahleia Colony? She was with her, I guess, until she was five. Yes. Right. My understanding is that through reading is that Kahleia Colony actually was the Hanei, that is, she Hanei Princess Keikuonawa is a young child.

And I think that probably Princess Keikuonawa was very much affected by the personality, the very strong personality of Queen Kahumando, who we read about as being extremely strong and somewhat willful and a woman of great principle and strong opinions. And so we see these same characteristics manifesting themselves in Princess Elie Colony as she becomes older. So I think that probably the Queen Kahumando probably had a lot to do with the way Princess Elie Colony ended up viewing the world. Those formative years of hers were very much affected by the Queen, I think. You know, these next two questions are kind of connected. You could either answer them separately or together.

Okay. You know, I wanted to ask you how you think Ruth was different from the other chiefs of her time, and why do you think she refused to speak English? Okay. I'm not really sure why Princess Kahleia Colony was as different as she was from the chiefs of her time. But it appears to me that she had an uncommon sense for tradition, respect for tradition, and she knew her place in traditional Hawaiian society. And as a granddaughter of King Kahumando first, why she understood that one of her responsibilities was to maintain and sustain the viability of traditional society. And I think perhaps maybe even more than her half-brothers, Alexander and Lot, coming near the fourth and the fifth, I think that she understood that this was her responsibility.

And so she took it upon herself almost singly, almost she took it upon herself. I'm not saying this very well, but she took it upon herself to carry the torch as it were, so that traditional morays and ideas and views of the world perspectives were perpetuated into her time. And the second part of your question was... Why she refused to speak English? Right. Well, I mean, I've heard, and you see writings on the fact that Kahleia Colony apparently refused to speak English, but I'm not sure how adept she was at speaking English. I mean, it appears that she didn't attend the Chiefs Royal School, where English was taught during that 10-year period, I think it was. Was it 1939 to 1949 or something? I forget the dates. But maybe in 29 to 39. At any rate, Princess Kahleia Colony is not having attended the Chiefs Royal School,

and her own sort of traditional perspectives on life, I think probably propluded her from learning English. And it appears that she probably really didn't speak much English at all, although maybe she understood some... It doesn't appear likely that she actually could speak English. And part of it, I think, a large part of it had to do with the fact that she probably didn't want to. No desire to. You know, this isn't on the questions, but... Because you were talking, I just... I have something I'd like to ask you. Do you think she saw herself... Do you think she was very conscious of herself as, like you said, in a leee who... Because the other chiefs weren't maintaining these traditions as... And were becoming more and more westernized.

That she was conscious that people were looking to her. Or, you know, people looked at the leee and... You know, it's that relationship between the leee and the people. And I guess if you were in a leee, you might be conscious of what you were reflecting back to your people. Do you think she... I think there's a lot of merit to that. I mean, you know, there's a Hawaiian saying, Which means, a chief is a chief because of the people he serves. Or she serves. And so I think that Princess Elicolani was keenly aware that... If she bore a traditional torch, it had to be for her people. Because she realized the value in it. And she also realized that they wanted her to continue to carry this torch, this traditional torch. Whereas perhaps some of her half-brothers and other relatives, the chiefs of that time, were becoming more enamored of foreign ways, western ways, particularly... Because of the kinds of benefits that they saw there.

Although Princess Elicolani certainly saw those, she also saw the value of maintaining traditional Hawaiian perspectives and cultural beliefs and practices. And so I think definitely, she really felt very strongly that she needed to carry this traditional torch of culture, beliefs, and practices for her people. You know, it's interesting to me that Kawahi, who is so different from her, is so close to her and says she seems so supportive of the way she is, just really different from her. She loved her dearly, you can just tell. I mean, the way that Princess Kawahi wrote about her relationship with Princess Elicolani, I mean, the two are very close, absolutely. And yet she married her in American.

And I have a feeling that a lot of the chiefs and chiefices of the time felt that Elicolani represented Hawai'i past, and that they viewed a viable Hawai'i in the modern era of that time. They viewed a viable Hawai'i as being one that was led by Ali'i who knew enough about foreigners and about how to interact with foreigners, about their beliefs and values, so that they could make Hawai'i a viable part of the world's countries. And I think a part of what happened there was that they began to adopt some of these beliefs and practices themselves, knowingly, consciously or unconsciously, it's hard to say. In some cases, I think probably consciously and others maybe unconsciously, but or subconsciously. But I think that Princess Elicolani and comparing herself with them perhaps reacted in the opposite direction,

in the way she chose to more traditionally, because she felt that things were getting a bit out of hand, and that some of her own family and other Ali'i of the time were becoming far too enamored of the kinds of foreign ways that were being introduced at the time. Do you think that might have had to do with the fact that she was a little older than the other siblings of, you know, the ones, Kina-Oen, and that she was a little more influenced by the older generation of cheese. I think that had a lot to do with it, totally. What do you think Ruth gets a little notice or bad press in Ali'i's papers of the time? Yeah, or through that, you know, Ali'i's historical lens.

I think the, the, how the population of the time didn't really know how to handle her. She was a woman of very strong opinions, and many of them were very much traditionally based, and they were coming from a culture that didn't share the same values in many instances, and so that's, all of that's reflected in the kinds of things they wrote about her or didn't write about her. In fact, probably what they didn't write about her speaks volumes more than what they did write about her, only because I think that they felt not being able to understand her, and perhaps viewing where she was coming from as sort of more traditional, and more traditionalist, probably than they would have liked, why I think that they didn't really want to have much to do with her, and in fact, probably wanted to have more to do with others of the Ali'i

who were more conversant in English and had maybe shared some of the same values that these foreigners did, and so I think all of that's just reflected in the newspapers and the kinds of things that were written about her or not written about her. Yeah, exactly right. Did we next this question, how did the other Ali'i see? I think I sort of addressed that a little bit already. Yeah, so let's go on. You didn't want to talk about the color colors and the commands, right? Yeah, I don't want to talk about that. What do you think a lot refused to consider Ruth as one of the eras to the tongue of his heir to the tongue? I think that a lot understood that Princess Ali'i had some acumen in terms of property,

because evidently she was good at acquiring property, keeping property, maintaining property within the family, and I think he understood that she was able to do that, and so he respected that ability of hers, but I don't think he believed that because of her more traditionalist sort of Hawaiian perspective of the world that she would be able to fully lead in what he saw as a new world, and anticipating the kinds of changes that he saw inevitable with the coming of foreigners. He felt, and again, I'm conjecturing that she really wouldn't be able to deal properly or appropriately, or in a productive way with these new forces that were coming into Hawaii at the time. Could you describe, as far as you know, how Ruth handled being a part of this foreign capitalist system?

Would you say that again? That's an interesting question. Just as far as you know, how does this conduct itself in the sort of capitalist business world? Well, Craig knows a lot more about this than I do. I don't think I'll say anything about that. Although we know she was shrewd. Why do you think it was important to Ruth to retain her lands? Well, I think increasingly beginning in the mid-1800s, there was, or even before, in Hawaiian government, the Haoli presence was really very strong.

I mean, there were advisors, I mean, there were members of judicial committees and all the rest. And so she, and I think she saw that, and saw also that what that meant in many instances was that these Haoli advisors and people who became increasingly more intimately a part of the machinery of politics at the time. She saw that lands were being taken up by those types of people. And so I think that made her keenly aware that she had this responsibility, again, as a member of the Kamehameha family with all of these lands. She recognized her responsibility and felt that it was incumbent upon her to make sure that none of those lands, the lands of her family, and as few as possible of the lands of other Hawaiian people would be taken by the Haoli population of the time, which was increasing, and which was becoming increasingly dominant in Hawaiian politics at the time.

That's not a good answer, but that's okay. We're going to move on to questions about her stopping the lava flow. What kind of meaning do you think that the event had for a native Hawaiians at the time to see one of their Ameen do something like that? Well, we read that the people of Hilo actually invited Princess Elicola to come to Hilo to intercess for them, or to intercede for them, because the people of Hilo were being threatened by this flow that was some... a few quarters of a mile away, I guess, from the beach there at Hilo Onei. And so, having asked that she come to intercede on their behalf to Pele, who was an Ahumakua of the Kamehameha clan, why she decided to come. I think that this kind of traditional relationship between Ali and Makai Nanah was one that was solidified here.

The Makai Nanah felt that they could still go to their Ali and ask for traditional kinds of work or activity from their Ali in order to ensure the welfare of the people, and she responded positively. I think that her having come to Hilo, and her having made that intercession on behalf of the people of Hilo, showed them that she was listening to them, and that she was definitely aware of the predicament that they were in. And that she also recognized her own sort of status as an elite and her responsibility to them and to this intercession. So, on several levels, I think, it buoyed the feeling and the thoughts of Hawaiians of the time, because they... At a time when increasingly, Hawaiian cultural practices were weakening and being looked down upon, actually, why he was this princess who very boldly decided that she would come and do something very traditional.

And so, I think that in the minds of the people, it solidified for them the idea that this princess who had this mana came to Hilo to use this mana. And as we know, of course, the lava flow stopped, and it was really truly miraculous. I mean, it was in the newspapers of the time, people were very excited to see... Hawaiian people, I think, were very excited to see that this traditional kind of intercession actually worked. As miraculous as it was, they believed that it was because of her mana. It was affirming. How do you think during her lifetime, every day Hawaiians might have felt about Ruth?

Ah, that's a good question. I think at the time how every day Hawaiians at the time felt about Ruth, I think there was probably a mixture of awe. I think that every day Hawaiians at the time probably felt a mixture of awe, respect, and aloha for the princess. Because, as an aliyah, who wasn't afraid of showing others that she wasn't, was an aliyah with a very strong willed opinions and her very sort of almost aggressive protection of her own family's status. And rank in society, I think that Hawaiians at the time really had a lot of aloha for her despite this awe and even fear perhaps of her. This is all mixed with respect. And even a bit of a kind of aloha that allowed for some levity at times about who she was, what she was, the way she acted, perhaps the way she looked even.

So I think that all of that spoke to the complexity of the woman but then also the appreciation of the people for her complexity and their love for her because she had a strong sense that, and I think truly believed that she was looking out for their welfare. We're almost towards the end, believe it or not. Okay. What kind of milestone do you think Kaeli Golanese's death was for the history? Kaeli Golanese's death was a huge milestone. It came at a time when, during the early 1880s, the last of the Kamehameha's really of note and of political power were dying. I mean, soon after Kaeli Golanese died, where, of course, Queen Emma passed away and then Princess Bawahi.

And so these very important members of the Kamehameha family were all dying, very much at the same time. And so I think that with their passing went the kinds of traditional associations with the family, the kinds of political power that was associated with the family. And their passing also sort of made way for a new era in terms of the Calakawa dynasty. And I think that that new government associated with the Calakawa's was able to go more uncontested perhaps than it might have had these women not passed away when they did. You know, this wasn't on the list that I read to you too. Okay.

You know, one of the kind of hella rights about Powahi, I read a little of the biography, he kind of speculates that Powahi and Kaeli Golanese may have conferred about what was to become of all the land that they knew would pass. From Kaeli Golanese to Powahi because, you know, she writes from Will in January of 1883. She has that big party at her house in February and she becomes ill and she doesn't actually pass away until May. So, you know, Bernice Powahi didn't have any children. So, do you want to comment on that speculation whether you think, you know, that the legacy that's attributed to Powahi that, you know, they may have been some kind of mutual decision or... I understand if you don't want to.

Yeah, that's hard to say. Yeah, I don't think so. It's just total conjecture there. Although certainly, you know, the indications are that maybe they had been some conferring and that they had, you know, discussed the possibility that, you know, these lands might be used in a certain way, but that's hard to know. I mean, I think there might have been a mutual concern about the land because, you know, it's such a big thing that's come down through that thing for so many generations. What excites me to think about is how Kaeli Golanese had she lived, how she might have, what she might have done with those lands. I mean, I often think about how a community of schools established by the Princess Kaeli Golanese might have appeared rather than the one established by Princess Bernice Powahi. Only because Princess Powahi, although she was rooted, I think, in traditional Hawaiian culture, certainly spoke our language and knew about the ways of her ancestors. I think that she more than Kaeli Golanese tended toward the western side, much more westernized than Princess Kaeli Golanese.

And so it interested me to think about what might have happened had Princess Kaeli Golanese, for example, started a school and what that might have looked like. Because Kamehameha is really, I sort of view Kamehameha schools today, and it has this long history that is rooted in a time when immersion schools in English were important to Hawaiians at the time. And Kamehameha really started as an immersion school, as an English immersion school. And so I'm thinking, well, I'm wondering what Kaeli Golanese might have done, which she have wanted English as the medium of instruction, as did Powahi or which she have insisted that Hawaiian be the language with maybe English taught as a subject. It's hard to know, but the difference in their view of the traditional versus the modern world of the time really would have been interesting to see manifested in a school by Kaeli Golanese have no idea.