Idaho Reports; Woodburning Stoves

The funding for this program is provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the friends of our 10 and 12 you know Idaho woodstove sales continue at a brisk pace. So much so that wood burning pollution is causing new concern. That's our story tonight. Good evening. For a long time city officials in Boise and several other Idaho communities have been concerned about air pollution. Until just recently most of the blame for that air pollution has been placed on the automobile exhaust in the industrial smokestack but increasingly and with the winter heating season again just around the corner the air pollution concern is fast turning in the direction of the living room fireplace and the word stove that reportedly 18 million of us are now using to heat the family dwelling. Now Ron really knows how much wood burning pollution

is contributing to our air pollution problems. But as producer Bruce Reichard explains the state of Idaho is trying to find out heating with wood has become fashionable romantic inexpensive and a health hazard. Over 100 chemical pollutants are contained in wood smoke from carbon monoxide to cancer carrying agents. And until recently the State of Idaho had no way of monitoring the situation. Two weeks ago this van was set up in Boise's Winstead park. What we have is an air quality study to look at the impact of wood burning on the air quality in the Boise area. And we're looking at several types of pollutants we're looking at to find particularly the type given off by wood smoke. We're looking at coarse particularly the kind you generally find in the air looking at carbon monoxide which is also given off by wood burning. And we're also monitoring weather conditions throughout the winter. We only have one van like this in the state and it was designed so that we could do this type of special study at various cities anywhere in the state without having to tie up a lot of expensive

equipment for specifically one spot. We have four structures on the roof the right frontal structure is the intake for the carbon monoxide monitor. And air is pulled up through the funnel along the Teflon line to the carbon monoxide analyzer located inside the van. The weather station that you can see on the top with the wind cups and wind direction Vane records wind direction wind speed and temperature on an ongoing basis so we can look at any pollutant levels and correlate them to the temperature. And we also have two particular monitors on the top the one with the saucer shaped roof on it. On the far side of the van is used to collect fine particularly the very small particulates that is we're most concerned about from a health aspect. And this is the type given off by Bernie. And the other hive on monitor we have on the top of the teepee shaped roof looks like a little bird house is used to collect total suspended particulates that is any coarse material in the air with heat now accounts for 10 percent of the nation's total residential energy use in some

wood stove dealers estimate that 30 percent of the Boise Valley residents own either a wood stove or a fireplace. Right now we really can't tell much because we're not far enough into the study and we're really not far enough into the wood burning season to draw any conclusions. Other cities with severe wood smoke pollution and temperature inversions have decided not to wait for scientific data before taking action. Both Missoula Montana and Medford Oregon have passed legislation requiring that wood stoves be shut down when particulate levels get too high. It's been estimated that similar legislation would shutdown Boise's woodstoves upwards of 20 times a year. One of the problems is that airtight wood stoves like actually laying in Fisher have replaced the less efficient Franklin stove. But the cost of that efficiency has meant greater pollution. Franklin stove you know that we used to sell. 12 years ago. Was a lot of pollutant less

pollutant than this slow burning stoves we sell a day because of the amount of the volume of air rushing in mixing with the wood smoke with the wood gases and going up the chimney. There were a lot cleaner than the slow burning stoves. The pollution problem has come about with the advent of slow burning stove. It's the industry's response to this pollution has been the catalytic converter. This is a typical Corning catalytic buster and this unit is is heated by the initial burning of the wood and once this is heated as those gases pass through this catalytic they are rebirth. It's like an afterburner in a car. But unlike some anti pollution devices this one has several unique advantages which could cause people to install them voluntarily. It's hard to convince somebody to buy one just to clean up the air. You have to convince them of the savings and of the safety of them. If you can

save 30 percent on your wood bill or the amount of wood that you have to go get and you can save substantially on cleaning your flue and reduce the hazards flue fires. Yes I think they'll buy a voluntarily but so far neither the federal government nor the state of Idaho has adopted woodsmoke emission standards and even the most sophisticated stove manufacturers don't know if there is State of the art stoves will meet the test until those standards come out whether it be 10 parts per million particulate sore or whatever. They don't know so they're kind of in a stalemate right now not knowing what standards they have to meet. The winter air pollution problem in the Boise Valley is usually what the locals call another one of those dirty inversions. The ground based inversion is caused in the winter by a ground cooling faster than the air which tends to trap smoke close to the surface.

Many times these inversions in the Boise Valley burn off by mid morning. There are also high pressure inversions lasting several days in allowing no new clean air to enter the Boise Valley. Ken Brookes is the chief of the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare quality Bureau and the man in charge of the woodburning pollution study in the Boise area. Just what will all of this sophisticated monitoring tell you about wood burning pollution. Mr. Brooks the primary focus of that monitoring device was to tell us exactly what's happening in the neighborhoods where people live where they're sleeping where they're eating their meals. We needed information as to not just where they're working but where they're actually living that monitor will allow us to do that not only in Boise but we can look at other communities throughout the state. Well that's right. I guess it's widely believed that we have a problem in the capital city are there other Susan Idaho that approach the problem to approach them with this. The intensity of the problem that we have in Boise based upon the complaints we think there are a number of

other areas in the state that have problems our regional offices in CT or LN record a number of complaints about would still be missions. We have problems in Pocatello we've had complaints come from the. Sun Valley area any any place where there are concentration of wood stoves and topography which will trap those emissions are going to generate complaints. So you hear complaints in the water a lot of people say why don't you guys do something about that or. We have complaints in the winter about wood stoves because not only are the emissions from wood stoves wood stove emissions contain the invisible carbon monoxide they contain visible types of things people react to those visible emissions in their words they see something coming out of the chimney and react to it. That's correct and I think an important thing for people to know is when they see smoke coming out of the chimney it means several things not just that there's air pollution being contributed to but it means that their money that they're spending on fuel is not being consumed in the

fireplace and heating their home. It also means that that the particles which are not being burned are being deposited in the chimney where they can cause a severe fire hazard. When you see smoke you've got a problem not just from an air pollution sense when really you have the kind of data that you hope to have so we can get a handle on how serious this problem might be. OK. We've done two things First of all we have contracted a study in the Boise area with Boise State University. And this study was to determine how many storms we had in the area. How much were people were burning and what their perceptions of a future needs would be would they be putting in additional wood stoves where they'd be burning or within their burning now. This was to give us an idea of just what people want to do as far as heating their homes were half faced with the increasing cost of alternative heating sources and road is is something that certainly the consumer wants as an option. The information from that study will. We were

just a to Stickley looking at that information now we don't have the results from that. That coupled with what we find in the air from our monitoring station which will be operated from now through March will give us a very good idea as to what we would be looking at as far as the real health impact in the Boise area. Do we have a problem or don't weigh. Well do we have a problem with health. Should we be concerned about the health problem at this point or don't we know. We don't know and we should be concerned in the reason we should be a smaller contains things that are potential health problems. We just don't know what kind of concentrations people are actually being exposed to in this area or can or read kind of trends we would have which would generate concentrations in their friends and women and they just interrupt for a second though. It's widely believed I think and accepted that don't really smoke does contain some things that are not good for people right it's just a question here in this area and perhaps in other places and I don't know as to how much of that is there right.

That's exactly right Mark. OK. Could all of this I ask you to speculate just a bit could all of this ultimately lead to some sort of voluntary curbs or even mandatory curbs like Bruce mentioned they have in a couple of other places. It could if the data shows that we do have a problem or the problem is is increasing and getting worse it could result in what we would first like to see is voluntary curbs and what we would have envisioned in that regard was to inform people and to allow the consumer. The choice as to what types of stores to buy what types of wood he should be using and how to operate his existing stores. We really believe at this point that if the public becomes informed about these types of things that they will make decisions which will result in a reduction of the amount of emissions in the area. So finally you're to leave it up to the you leave it up to the public to make the determination for themselves as opposed to impose some standard upon them. From the information we have now we really believe that that the public will be able to see that the

new generation of wood still is able to heat their homes much more efficiently much safer and cause far less air pollution. So we believe the benefits are there we believe the consumer will make that choice and come back Sure thank you. It's been another view now of the seriousness if there is seriousness in this problem and what might be done about it from my woodstove do your job as manager of woodland stoves or Boise woodstove dealership. From my point of view Mr Booth is a serious problem with pollution caused by burning wood. Well I think that there probably could be. I think now's the time to to look at our manufacturers to build us a better product so that we don't have this problem so we can alleviate the problem before it gets too severe. Do you think we have a problem right now in the Boise Valley. Had been I see what the reports come up with but I see the grey in the sky and I would say yes. The gentleman on the videotape mentioned that you were in the process of making the stones more efficient

which I guess everyone who burns with wood wants to wants to do he want the wood to last longer and burn hotter. We've made the pollution worse is that is that a first date. Well it was a fair statement the best changing rapidly we're presently handling the stove that comes out of New Zealand New Zealand almost five years ago passed clean air standards on wood stoves and through design in the engineering of their store. We are now presently selling a stove that has as been approved for the state of Oregon by the specs that they have already set out now those specs aren't law yet but this stove has been approved by the standards they presently have set. What's different about this still than than others. Well it's got a smaller combustion box so that you can create more temperatures it's also got a little chamber up in the cop that creates a lot of temperature now it takes temperature to burn the gases. You can definitely tell the difference in just the amount of smoke coming out of the chimney while that stove is burning is the catalytic converter part of the answer here too. I think it can be but the catalytic converter is always going

to be a $200 add on which raises the cost of a stove. It's also going to be a heavy maintenance item and may be the catalyst going to be our answer. But I see a manufacturer here that has created a stove that has hit those standards without the catalytic. So their ports need not potentially be a big increase in the price of a wood burning stove you know in order to mitigate some of these pollution problem no this doe sells. They have two miles one is five and a half and one is 8 60 and it's right in the ballpark with any stove on the market. Are the manufacturers of these still concerned about this pollution problem and concerned about I guess a way to deal with it. At this point I think a lot of them are or become very concerned because we're seeing the various action over in Oregon as a dealer. I'm glad that they're finally starting to become concerned because it's through the design of the stove that we make that still more efficient if it pollutes less you're going to burn less wood it's going to cost you less money. It

gives me a better stove to sell the public. People walk into your store do they ask about those kinds of things I mean do they ask about the pollution. And not necessarily we're not getting too much yet. I think as the public gets more educated we'll we will probably see more people answering that question but right now no. Some are suggesting Mr. Booth that there's a relationship of sorts here between the woodstove industry and the automobile industry way where the auto industry. Some would say had to be carried kicking and screaming into doing something about their mission problems. There would still manufacturers going to do that too. Well as a dealer I hope not but I have a feeling that there will be a lot of manufacturers there will be fighting that for the mere fact that it is expensive to redesign. Sure. Well let me ask you finally about I mentioned at the very beginning of the program that the stores are still selling briskly they are selling briskly on. Yeah last year was a slow year and this year is probably 30 percent higher than last year. Why. I think a tight economy last year

this year people realize they've got to do some about those fuel bills. Is that an economical way to eat. Sure has been for me. I've been doing it for seven years and literally haven't used any other source of fuel and 70 or so yes I think very much it is. And people really are looking at these as a way to heat as opposed to just a nice piece of atmosphere to have in the living room so that every individual comes in has to curb that feel Bill and that's what he talks about. Welcome back sir thank you for that. Now that's going to do it for the Liberal Government of so sure that view comes from Mary truly a member of the brushy City Council resolution rhymes with the water pollution problem looser and looser. OK but possibly bad and certainly certainly bad version or the the difficulty with the automobile pollution problem was that it's carbon monoxide and it can be there when we don't see it. The wood pollution problem is very visible and while we were working our way through the

inspection maintenance program repeatedly people were saying OK but what are you going to do about what we can see and we know it has particulates in it and either gaseous substances that are not beneficial to our health. You heard Mr. Brooks said that he gets calls in the wintertime from folks wondering what's being done about this do you get those kinds of cool I get those kinds of calls to and my response was about really I don't have a very good partnership of information but at the same time after last winter. When there were a number of days when it was sort of clued in as to be out there. We talked about it in the Planning Association board meeting and further briefly with the city council and I had discussed having at least a resolution put together whereby we could be working with the

emerging work of the state air quality bureau and notifying the community. On those days when there is noticeable health hazard the best way I can see to work with it would be to tie it with the carbon monoxide readings because if it's high and indicating hazardous conditions to the health then other other elements also. So you certainly welcome what the state is doing in terms of trying to gather some data. Absolutely absolutely on it and travelers rather that we can talk to. I think it's going to make it difficult to sell to the general population that this is the right time and we would put together an ordinance that had. Sanctions in it for instance where I live at least for my next question you've just gone through a huge battle in this part of Idaho auto pollution control emission

ordinance. Mr Brooks is suggesting I believe that the public will be willing to to to make their stoves less polluting by themselves without without some government intervention. You think that's possible. I would like to think that's possible right. There are a lot of work with voluntary groups and there's a lot of evidence of voluntary action in this instance when it very clearly is. Not clear and hazardous to our health and confinement times and when we know that there are individuals who simply cannot go out on days when we see this kind of inversion and this and that's the smoke. I would hope that those who are heating themselves with this kind of fuel would also be sensitive to what is happening to another part of the population who may or may not be burning wood or not there are just people in our in our community and in the human condition that don't

have a strong along as a strong a heart as strong as. A whole physical being that can withstand the several kinds of poisons that are there. Would you guess at this point knowing what you know about the air pollution situation here that we would have a serious we could we we're right now have a serious problem at least a few times during the winter woods with this one burning. Just on a sort of informal discussions I've I've worked in a social service community for a number of years and. Particularly with a population that you know is sometimes home bound in that sort of thing. I've been very aware of problems that those people have on on days that intuitively we look at and we know the air is not good for us. So I'm I'm suspicious that we've got a problem that I need to work with collectively it isn't going

to be solved by governmental regulations. In my view we may need to be a partner in that. But it's not it's not going to be done simply by legislation. Well I guess what's at the border will open it up to go back to Mr. Brooks I guess that's what you were saying earlier that it's not going to be solved by government regulation. I think that's true and we are though looking at states and local areas in New England in the southeastern part of the country in Oregon Colorado Alaska even is having problems with woodstoves and have passed ordinances were looking very carefully at the effectiveness of those different actions so we haven't ruled that out entirely we would just like to see if. Other programs would would work in this area better. We don't feel smart is smart but we fear that the situation in Boise and the attitude of the people here may allow us to be successful. I should also mention that we do. Let me just sort of do there for a second what's so different about this area that isn't different about Missoula

or Medford where they had where they went in the posed ordinances. OK we don't have the same topography and we don't have the same weather as either one of those communities. That means the amount of red smoke we generate isn't going to be trapped in the same way that it is in those communities. And that's the critical thing. That's why we're monitoring this wonder to see just what levels we actually record in this area. We are also very much aware that if we do record high levels that we want the public to know and we are going to ask for voluntary action by the public if we see those high levels you could do that as early as this winter doing that right now we have a phone in a service called there quietly index that people can phone in to find out what the if the areas is healthy moderate unhealthful or whatever and this is primarily tied to the carbon monoxide downtown. But as Mary has said that if the kind of monoxide levels get high that tells us we've got a stagnation condition and that the particulate from the woodstoves would also be high. We would recommend when we hit certain levels for people with alternative

heating sources such as or their furnace or electricity not to burn wood. If we reach those levels. That air quality index is something that we make available every day to the media in the area television radio newspaper. So we have we certainly are not ignoring the fact that this can be a public health problem. This trail I think you would like to comment. Well the comment I would make is that that would be the program that we would see a resolution from the city council time to that on those days when there are alerts that we would further reinforce the curbing of wood burning smoke and weird wood burning not to the exclusion of those who have no other heating source because that that's not the goal either to have people to care about at those conditions. But certainly room for us and strengthen that kind of message to the community so that perhaps a voluntary process. It would be round to raw

instead of that by the time we get we get other kinds of data that that the community is ready to work together to solve its own problems to boot. How do you think the folks who buy your stores would react to something like that. Well I think I think it all over. You know what I think people would probably shut off they have that gas an oil furnace there's a backup bed. I do know that I would say easily 50 percent of our customers and a lot of cases don't have gas and I would at this point no more they've used those for so long. Wood is their only source another way that wood stove and I think that through more education in burning that stove properly burning and hotter. Those people that are backed by stoves being educated on what to buy in a stove that will burn hot enough to burn those gases. We can cover a lot of this pollution. How does Mr. Booth reacting in places where they have some regulations governing what still burning. So the Oregon experience over in Oregon and a lot of the dealers over there are actually dropping some lines of stoves that they know in their own hides are not

going to pass those regulations. I know we did a year ago we had literally cleared those lines out that we thought were going to pass. You know what they were dirty in the air the ones were not burning those gases and were you looking for those stoves that that will pass those those standards are being set in the wagon. Basically the stones I'm selling today are not the ones I was selling two years ago because I'm looking for that stove that will burn cleaner. Mr. Brooks MCDERMOTT You know I would I would support formally what with the Booth has said that we are looking at the new technology and woodstove as the primary means of allowing people the option of using wood as a way of curbing their their winter time fuel bills. But we would like to see this new more efficient and I think maybe that's a point I should make. It was already mentioned that if a store was more efficient it's more polluting let's not. Not quite true. Efficiency and cleanliness of the emissions from that still go hand in hand. A star becomes less efficient when you're not burning all the combustible products of that wood

and when you're not burning all the combustible products you're creating air pollution so efficiency and clean emissions go hand in hand and the new stores are going to provide those to us I'm convinced of that. Just a comment there. In the past we've seen people be sold these stoves that are just humongous in size the larger That stove that unless the temperature is on the inside of the box the more it's going to pollute. They should be looking at smaller batches so that you get that heat contained was another area to put the lid the fuel that's exactly right. Were baffled still something that still this going to hold the heat in longer. So those temperatures can get hotter because the hotter those temperatures are the more the gases you burn. It's true. Well I think tied into this is the safety factor that hasn't been mentioned either and the safety factor in a city as if it were not burning cleanly then the chimney is that accumulating come Besta bears that can become a fire hazard and. Certainly

that's a concern of the public entity as well as the public as to how it efficiently we can take care of the overall safety. We've talked about health being our physical health but we're having fires. There's another kind of threat to our safety all sell through Mr. Booth. Yes very true. Once again those crystals are collecting that chimney that caused the chimney fires are nothing but on the burning gases. And then sad to say the thing we see the most problem with out there right now is fireplace inserts but once again you've got a big hole in the rail. You put a big X in at home that there's no way you can build the temperatures to burn those gases. And the biggest portion virtually fires today are caused by fireplace insert. Well one side we're out of time we'll have to leave it there and we'll invite you all back girl later in the winter and see what your data says Mr. Brooks we thank you for joining us tonight Mr. Moon was this trail thank you. That's our time for tonight. Thank you for joining us I'm Mark Johnson. Good night. The funding for this program is provided by the Corporation for Public

Broadcasting and the friends of 10 and 12.