Up Close with Cathy Unruh; Aidan Delgado

There's a special presentation of w. we do YOU Tampa St. Petersburg Sarasota. Whatever you feel about war or the Iraq War in particular. Our guest today has a compelling story about his transformation from Najaf soldier to a conscientious objector to the outspoken critic of war. Join me. Welcome to close on Cathy Areu. Our program focuses on the Iraq war today and one soldier's story Aiden Delgado wrote a book about his experience in Iraq it's called the sutras of Abu Ghraib notes from a conscientious objector in Iraq. Now from the title of a dense book it's obvious that some of our discussion is going to focus on his opposition to the war in Iraq. We understand that there are many points of view on this conflict and PBS report on and discuss those many viewpoints often but because we are discussing Aiden and his book today's conversation will we evolve around age. Welcome to our

studios Satan. Thanks for your point of view is that of a Buddhist. It is explained that religion to us. Well for me Buddhism is really deeply rooted in my growth and childhood in Thailand where I spent seven years and was first exposed to Buddhism then later as a young man and attending college here in Sarasota. I was exposed to Buddhism of many different forms from my religion classes. As for me Buddhism. It is a non-theistic religion in that it doesn't focus on a central god but deals more with a moral way of life and with a way of controlling one's mind and the central tenets of that moral way of life our compassion for all beings. Do no harm. Truth and compassion and love for all beings which is probably the the fundamental belief that causes me to see conscious objection and we are going to get into all that but we just want to explore a little bit and we'll mention that you're wearing a bracelet. This is the Buddhist bracelet you wear it all the time as this emblem of your religion. Your father was a diplomat and so as you travel the world this is how you became exposed.

Yes I grew up in Thailand actually spent probably the first seven years of my life in Bangkok. And did you know that you were a Buddhist from a young age. No you know I don't think that children are really capable of making that decision so early. But I think it entered my mind in a positive way and it resonated with me so that by the time I became an adult I had a long mental history of Buddhism and I'd always viewed it in a positive way and I think that made me much more interested in it intellectually when I grew up and Buddhism says cease to do negative actions learn to do positive actions and violence would be a negative action. Absolutely. Violence especially the taking of life would be the most severe negative action the five precepts of Buddhism somewhat akin to the Ten Commandments the first of which is do not take life. So the sanctity of life is the essential part of Buddhism. I'm going to quote from your book a little bit as we go along here and I in your book you do explain how your belief system was sort of developing before you could actually put a

name to it before you had actually said Gosh my belief system matches Buddhism as a boy your family is facing and your dad tells you to kill a fish. So you stab it and you say that rather than going quiet the fish begins to jerk and convulse I don't know why but I had somehow thought that the fish's blood would be blue or clear not red like a person's I am shocked to see that the fish bleeds are red. I wish I could take back what I've done and make everything all right. How old were you at that time. Must have been around 10. And I remember that incident very strong that I missed in the book because as you said I think I had these sympathetic beliefs these humanistic beliefs long before I could put a name to them long before I knew that those were the sort of beliefs identified with Buddhism. So as I say in the book and I've said many times in person this was not something suddenly that struck me in Iraq. This was the end of a very long journey from my childhood. When you were in Iraq you say and you were in the army. There was a mosque trip a fly strip hanging from the ceiling and you see a moth struggling to free itself from a piece of the flypaper and you say

I hate seeing any living thing suffer. I just can't stand it. True and you know maybe it seems strange or absurd that you'd be in the midst of this war zone and suddenly your attention would be drawn to something as in consequential as a moth. But sometimes that's the way of it and you lose sight of the grand picture. And when you're in these horrible traumatic circumstances. Suddenly it's a very small thing that stands out like this one moth that caused me to contemplate kind of the plight of living beings and being in a prison camp sort of a human fly paper strip if you will made me contemplate the yearning for freedom that everyone has and the yearning to live. And that was something that threw it into sharp contrast for me. And in keeping with your beliefs you became a vegetarian Was that hard to do in the army. It was especially overseas. There's not too much accommodation made and there are vegetarian Emery's the rations. But it was something that I I kept up with because it was something I believed in strongly and also it kept it in my mind always. Every meal I would be reminded Well there's a reason that I'm Buddhist and this is part of my life and so it was a good mindfulness exercise.

Let's talk about this capacity for empathy which is the word I'll use for it which you thought with the fish the last one. What do you think makes you have that or make certain people have that from the get go and other people are able to see things differently. You know I don't think it's something that I have that others don't I think every human being has that instinct of empathy and compassion and it's incredibly difficult to overcome. And it's only through long training and long indoctrination that people can never overcome it. If you read the good book on killing when he talks about the psychology of soldiers and how in World War 2 75 percent of soldiers in combat did not fire their weapons because they couldn't overcome that powerful empathy and kill another human being. And it was only through training in the Army's changing its training techniques that they could even get soldiers to kill and now the firing rate is up 80 percent. So I think it's not that they lack that empathy. I think it's purposefully drilled out of them and trained out of them. Well let's talk about how you got into the army because it's interesting with that. You know I can't kill like a fast and growing up in that way that how you wound up in the army. People are certainly saying by

now now wait a minute why did he join the army. You as we said travel around the world and your father was a diplomat then he came to Florida in 2000 to attend New College in Sarasota and basically you were a little bit bored you know not only bored but not fitting in it was quite a culture shock for me coming from Islamic society in Egypt to coming to the very liberal New College of serve soda. And I was really feeling out of sorts and I think I was feeling out of place as an American because I'd always identified as American but never lived in America. And I think I was trying to get out of this ivory tower setting to college the isolation from all the rest of my countrymen. And I think I wanted to see more of what my people were doing and what being an American was and that's one of the things that drove me. So you signed up for the Army on September 11th 2001. I did. Which was a pure coincidence. It was I mean I had made the decision a week earlier I had spent days in the MEPS already the processing station going through the formalities and I was finally signing my Emma West contract. My recruiter said hey go see what's on TV something just hit the World Trade Center. So I was there in the recruiting station at

the very moment when everything changed. And you've actually already signed on the dotted line. I have. OK. So you're going off to Kuwait as a mechanic in the military police. And you say that those early weeks in Iraq were actually an idyllic time for me with few responsibilities. True enough. After months of preparation to go to war we finally went and we were ahead at the ford base in Kuwait and then we went over to southern Iraq and the rest of our unit hadn't come up yet so we had really little time to do little things to do and and a lot of time so I had a lot of time to read and also for introspection. And then you say something soured very early on in deployments and that was the hunting of Iraqi dogs. Again another thing that it would seem small and consequential but it laid bare something about the military that I think I had willfully ignored as a child as a boy I always thought of soldiers as the sort of reluctant heroes you know who would fight or would defend the country but only out of necessity only because they were forced to do it and not because

they loved it. And when I saw these people hunting dogs really for pleasure you know with some justification. I began to think well there's people who enjoy it and they enjoy mayhem and they they seek it out they seek out killing and they seek out destruction. And that pulled something back from the whole project and revived the way I looked at the military. And then when I saw the way they treated Iraqis and in the way they treated prisoners all those things were confirmed for me. So how does that jive with your saying that most people have a natural instinct for empathy and they have to work to overcome it. And then you say you go to this mail and you see people killing for fun. Well I see soldiers who've been trained for I don't know how many years and gone through basic and gone through vet's training where that instinct has been systematically you know lessened and drilled out of them. And I see what it does to people. That's exactly supporting my point in that here are people who I think are all good people who are decent people who are in pathetic. And then being in the army being in a war zone has deadened their empathy to the level where they can they can do things that I'm sure they wouldn't do here in America.

So here you are working as a mechanic and you're reading some books and I was actually at that time that you realized that you were a Buddhist. Well no I had identified myself as a Buddhist before I left for Iraq after I joined the military. But again I don't think I was a very serious buddhist I don't think it was something that occupied every moment of my thought as it did in Iraq. The Iraq war really deep in my religious sentiment as one might expect and no atheists in foxholes. But you had this sort of aha moment when you were in the military and you were reading books about Buddhism and what Buddhism is and isn't that when you put two and two together and set all my beliefs mesh with this. Well in terms of conscious objection in terms of realizing that the Army and I were not a good fit. Absolutely the crystallisation happened in Iraq because you said then you began to feel sinful and hypocritical you believe in compassion mediation and nonviolence while you're simultaneously carrying machine gun and serving in an occupying force. Absolutely and I think we all live with these huge contradictions in our lives. Most of us live with some kind of religious contradiction. We know what is told to be right and what we should be doing. And then we see how we live our lives. And they're so far apart. And at no time is that more clear than in a

war zone especially when you're the follower of a religion that says Peace Love compassion. And here you are carrying the machine gun so you apply for conscientious objector status. Tell us about. Process time subject or status is a very long arduous process Munn it up taking about 15 months. So long after I return from Iraq was it decided I was honorably discharged and it basically involves a series of interviews you write a packet or an essay stating your beliefs you're interviewed by a chaplain a psychologist and investigating officer who all make a ruling on your sincerity. Ultimately you have a philosophical debate with the investigating officer and he asks you moral questions. I'm sorry. Was it a hard decision for you to decide to take that route. Absolutely. I was one of the most difficult decisions of my sergeants warn me because I was torn between two great loves you know the love of Buddhism and the love of that ideal and also the love of my fellows and the love of the camaraderie and not wanting them to see me as leaving them behind which I never did in my heart but I felt that as soon as I said this war is wrong and I declined

to participate then I would tear a rift between me and my unit. And so it was very hard. And it did in fact happen you were tormented by some people as I was about. I was it was a difficult experience. And ironically it was only by demonstrating your ability to do violence that you won the respect of your fellow soldier says that the story of your encounter with Wilson. And he came up behind you imagine a chokehold or whatever and it was only by showing that you could overcome him physically. That then things calmed down for you it's true and unfortunately the culture of the military is such especially among young soldiers. There's this kind of dog eat dog mentality anyone who shows weakness will be picked on and put down the totem pole. And I had this decision when this a person came up to me and was threatening me and I felt all the sudden this is a test this is going to be the Beta am I going to be the one that everyone picks on. And I was faced with this terrible decision that if I don't put a stop to this now and if I don't show this person that I am not a target that I have to be fighting this battle every day that I'm in Iraq. And so as I said in the book and I made the

terrible decision to do a specific act you know to throw him down to submit him because I didn't want to have to deal with that for the rest of my life and for the rest of my tour. And when you filed for conscientious objector did you expect to get out of your tour and be able to go home. No I knew that conscious objection took about a year on average I had read several packets and so I was resigned to the fact that the my conscious objection would shorten my time in Iraq by a single day. But it was important to me to get out the right way. There's a multitude of ways that soldiers go home from conflicts very quickly very easily. But I wasn't I was interested in. I was interested in. Stating the right way that I'm opposed to this war. You did however expect to do just a six month tour and instead at the Near the end of that six months you were told that you're going to be great for another six months. The infamous prison of course you arrived there in November of 2003 on your 22nd birthday. Yeah. Tell us what it was like there was a desolate place. It was cold it was basically a ruin it was strewn with debris and it really just seemed

very unusual for the army to be occupying this this burnt out shell that was sort of like they had just moved in and yet it was it was completely unimproved. So most of the prisoners were living outside the barracks had no light no heat. It was a it was strange it was kind of like occupying an empty hermit crab shell. We all of course are familiar with the pictures out of Abu Ghraib. You didn't personally see any of that happen. No that was happening in another unit on the other side of the prison. But as it was happening there was talk about it. Absolutely and that's one of the things I've tried to point out is that it was well-known in Abu Ghraib months before it came out in America so much so that our commander of our unit which wasn't involved had had harangued us and said You guys are spreading rumors and you're sending e-mails and you're showing photos and you just stamp this out because we're all a family we don't air our dirty laundry in public. Then members of other units came and searched our bags looking for photographs looking for documents. And this was months before it came out in America. So not only was it known there was an active effort to conceal it not stop

it but to stifle it from getting home. And your book is called the sutras of Abu Ghraib and a sutra of course is that it is teaching the teaching us what are the sutras that you learned there. Well for me the primary thing that came out of my time up the grid was do not take life. And it's sounds very simple and most religions have something like it. It was a very difficult lesson for me to learn because so many times in our society they say well it's OK to take life if you're going to defend your property or it's OK to take life if you have a flag and someone says kill that person under a different flag. But for me I recognize this kind of universal shared humanity in that it's not OK to take life because you have a flag in the helmet that doesn't make it all right that they can legislate. They can make law but they can't make morality and they can't make something immoral moral just by decreeing so. And that was what I learned at Abu Ghraib. Another irony is that by the time you were discharged you didn't want to leave Iraq because by then the soldiers had sort of become your family if they had and Iraq had become my home I talk about going home on my two week home leave and feeling homesick for

Iraq. And even now sometimes I talk about it with other friends from the unit and we look back on it with rose colored glasses. Not because it was a good time but because we were so close and the friendship was so profound because of the hard circumstances and that's something that comes out of every war this profound camaraderie. When you received a conscientious objector status only after you got back to Florida which is in 2004 and since then you've been giving talks you go around and talk about what your experience was and you recently spoke at New College in Sarasota and in fact by giving these talks that's how the book deal originated. Correct. Yes actually at Beacon Press of Boston approached me about writing the book and I really really was something I sought but I figured this was a way that I could talk to people in depth. And one things that I really dislike is I hate giving sound bites. I hate condensing the whole story in 15 seconds because you can't give any context. And in a book you can put the experiences in their place and they're really that's the way I like to talk to people with a little bit of depth. Well let's listen to a couple of audience members questions during one of these talks at New College.

And your responses to them. People regularly ask questions I'm sure that's a big part of your program. OK let's hear one. You're ready for the worst thing you can. Do in your book. Let. Me see if you pull the first. One. And she says so don't write the story the more so when that story is really long and I meet so many of them you will be one of the first shot I don't know a lot of my WIR story is not what I like and that was kind of the thing that it was the whole thing was in the book because I was telling the story about the square Charlie Sheen yes this is. What you have here. Oh so do you think your experience was particularly unique. Well I mean I think every soldier's experience is unique. But I'm I think I'm what I'm trying to say in that quotation is

that not that I am unique but that my experience is closer to the experience of most soldiers most soldiers aren't the Medal of Honor winners most hole just go about their job quite quietly but internally they're going through an epic struggle and that's why I want to talk about I think that's something that a lot of soldiers can resonate with let's listen to another question. There's a gentleman and did you respect what you've accomplished. Yes I thought I was the biggest one you know. I don't want it. He was actually he was like a father you really need to save huge crowds. My IQ is on the way to a year but I don't think he supported the war I did not tricky that he was very supportive of me on the right side approach and I think it's probably just as well the other the other poor people you're right.

Now in those talks are there some people who don't like what you have to say. Absolutely. Very often I run to contrary views. But one of the things that's most pleasing to me is that rarely does it devolve into animosity. Usually it's another soldier who comes say well I'm really proud of what I did in Iraq and this is my perspective and I welcome that and I get it a lot. I never have a negative interaction with other soldiers that we may have a disagreement it's always a pleasant disagreement. Let's take every your beliefs to the ultimate I'm sure you've heard this question and contemplated it yourself many times and never kill Never take life whether it's under the flag or whatever. Do you ever put yourself in a scenario someone comes to kill you. And it's a choice. Absolutely and I have as you said I've struggled with it many times. But I think that there's there's two important points there. First of all part of pacifism or part of nonviolence is never putting yourself in a situation if you can help it. Will you be called upon to use violence. So that was my my rejection of the army is that I'm putting myself in a situation where I'm going to be called

upon to do violence routinely. And so that's that's part of it the active seeking out of peaceful circumstances. And the other part is I think we always present a false dichotomy. I think it's never true to say that your only choice is to kill or be killed. I think that is so rare as to be not even worth considering. I think there's always other options. Even in the moment to stifle the aggression or stifle the problem without killing. But even more so to stop it before it starts. People always say well what about World War Two. What about the Nazis. You know what if it's Hitler and I say it certainly I would have resisted Hitler or resisted Hitler in one thousand twenty eight before it was required to resist him with total war. And part of being a Buddhist and one of the parables I keep coming back to is that you extinguish the fire when it's just a spark. If you wait till it's a raging inferno Yes and you have no choice but part of nonviolence is to act in a timely fashion. Pacifism is not the same as past city. It's not doing nothing and letting it get out of control. If you stop the problem before it gets out of

control then you will stop 99 percent of the violence. As to the question of World War 2 though because we did an inch of World War 2 at the time in history that was happening. Are you able to say that maybe it was necessary at that point even though you would have done it differently and you would have jumped in only I could see that it that it was necessary. I can see some people's belief but I'm saying that that would would not still even that would not be a case of black and white it would not be a case of roll over or or fight with total war that there were other options that were neglected which made that necessary. We're going to able to make the decision about what America should do after 9/11. If it were your decision what would you have done. Well first of all I would have put all of our resources into defense of prevention and I think that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But more so I would not have I would have focused resources and words rather than outwards and I hate to see America spending its treasure and its blood in these foreign adventures when really our own homeland remains vulnerable in many important ways and I think that was something that was neglected. They offer people this

this seemingly easy choice of going to war as if that would make them safer. But the truth is terrorism has increased exponentially since September 11th which proves to me that this foreign adventure is a wrong strategy. And so I would have put the money into saving lives into defending the homeland rather than going overseas and bringing war there. And you say that in your life now I'm not just me anymore I'm representing Buddhism. I'm representing conscious objects and I'm representing everyone back home. So as a Buddhist and as a representative of that belief what would you do now today about terrorism. Osama bin Laden. Well it's a you know it's a huge huge plate of issues. But first of all I think Iraq is an easy one for me because I know the Iraq war to be a lightning rod not something that's protecting America but something that's drawing negative forces to America. And the truth is that Iraq is making the terrorism problem that much worse and all our soldiers over there dying and fighting and struggling are being put in harm's way

for a goal that is actually counter to our national interests. On the other hand on terrorism I think again a pound an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And I would say that if you wait until someone is so disaffected with American policies that they're willing to die then it is too late and you have to stop people from becoming terrorists in the first place. And the way to do that is to outreach with freedom is to outreach to economic justice and to prevent people from turning to terrorism. When people have no hope when they have an ideology that offers them martyrdom. They're very susceptible to becoming terrorists because they have nothing to live for. You know what. Give them something to live for and they will have no incentive to die. And you are planning to go to law school because you want to learn more about the law constitution government and it won't surprise anybody that you're looking at possibly a career in politics. I am yeah. You know what I've spent so long protesting it and working for change that way that I've grown frustrated and I want to make a difference I think I have something important to contribute to this discussion and so I want to try and pursue that. And I want to see where I can go with it because

I'm I'm interested in the business of government and the business of of the people. And also you'd like to write another book. I would I've always wanted to be a writer and this this book was a great opportunity for me. So I'm hoping that I'll be able to to try to do other things and now that I know I can write a book and I can sustain it. I'd love to move into the world of fiction and literature and other things. And what would you write about if you were writing fiction what would your topic be. You know I've been struggling with this but I've I've wanted to write human conflicts that don't involve killing. I think I struggle with that and I think in our movies and television and so much we don't know how to people can disagree without it coming down to a gunfight or a fist fight. And I'm interested in that image says what makes a compelling story. What makes a compelling conflict that doesn't have to devolve into a car chase and suddenly I'm interested in talking about drama without death and conflict without killing. And let me personalize it again through your life have you been able to avoid conflict. As a means of living pretty much all through your life like everybody else I'm

far from perfect and I've had many falls as well as I did in Iraq I was forced to use to use physical force and it's never but it's never something I relish and that gives me hope. Because since a young child I've been largely been strong but I've never enjoyed it I've never enjoyed the fact I feel pain and shame when I'm forced into conflict with someone else. So that gives me hope that as I mature and as I get wiser they'll be able to use it less and less. And so far I've been very successful in that. And you're 25 now. I have to look forward to seeing what comes next with you. Thank you for sharing your point of view and sharing it with us thank you very much for being here. Book is called the sutras of Abu Ghraib. Notes from a conscientious objector in Iraq it's available in bookstores and you can also go to his website which is w w w aid in that's a id n Delgado d l g a d o dot com. And once again we understand that there are many points of view in this conflict and PBS report on and discussed this many viewpoints often. Thank you for joining us for up close the next time.

Imagine feeling disillusioned with life so you leave college and join the army. On the

morning of September 11th 2001 that happened to Aiden Delgado a young man who went from college student to Army mechanic to conscientious objector and an outspoken critic of war. He'll join me to discuss his book The sutras of Abu Ghraib notes from a conscientious objector in Iraq on the next up close.