Debate on the Women's Liberation Movement Between Germaine Greer and William F. Buckley

A. National Public Radio presents a formal debate held recently at Cambridge University between feminist Germain Greer and columnist William F. Buckley. Ms Greer an actress journalist professor of literature and author of the bestseller The Female Eunuch spoke in favor of the Cambridge Union debating society motion that this House supports the women's liberation movement. Mr. Buckley who also hosts the public broadcasting program firing line heads the opposition and audience vote taken at the conclusion of the programme will indicate the winner of the debate.

It was a good evening. My name is Roger Evans an ex-president. We are here tonight at the Cambridge Union Society the world famous debating society of Cambridge University. You will see around the rules of this chamber pictures of English politicians for over a hundred fifty who have held office in the society and later in life when they have become distinguished. Come back here to speak how to listen I understand spoken only a week or so ago. But as well as the famous English politicians people like an old man and indeed the Prince of Wales have spoken out in debates. People like the Archbishop of Canterbury. We also in this house have a long tradition of distinguished American businesses. Indeed Teddy Roosevelt himself spoke this evening. We have a debate between William Buckley Jr. and Jemaine grip the president is Chris Smith and he

will be chairing the proceedings. To OT one thing. Ah good evening and welcome ladies and gentleman to the sixth debate of tonight's debate saying women's liberation. The motion before the House is this House supports the women's liberation movement. Guest speakers tonight Dr. Germ Ingrid who will be speaking in favor of the motion. And I suppose and Mr. William F. Buckley Jr. who will be speaking again it's the most anticipated. Mr. Buckley has debated twice at Cambridge before. Once again it's

James Baldwin when he lost once against Galbraith when he won. And tonight he is debating against Jim Ingrid who was herself a postgraduate at Cambridge speaking first on Germain's side will be in this tomorrow going to Trinity College and speaking first. Mr. Buckley Sayyid will be Mr. Stephen or Jesus College. I call on Mr. Martin going to Trinity College to propose the most. Louis. Thanks Mr. President. My sister who is an active women's liberation in California told me of a friend of hers who was a Catholic and who was recently married and went to confession one day and said to the

priest Father I've got this terrible feeling that I'm superior to my husband. I want what should I do about it. And the priest said no idea you must go away and pray and ask God for guidance. Oh I've done that she said and she agrees. I was the. Prove that in the absence tonight of divine affirmation of the cause of women's liberation we have Dr. Jermyn Greer about that most articulate among amongst earthly prophets to propose the motion. It's anthropology I want to start on tonight as a matter of fact Mr. President because I want to make two fundamental points about my support for the women's liberation movement. The first of them is to prove to my own mind that I think it's possible for women to change the status that they have in society at the moment.

And the second point I'll be making is to show the kind of ways in which they're proposing to make this change. I think any reference to a Dictionary of Quotations would tell you that men have been expressing their contempt for women for centuries. I mean I know you may be a fan of Dr. Johnson's Mr. President in spite of his hatred for Scotsman but taking his statement about women preachers present company of course excluded. So a woman. So a woman preaching is like a dog walking on its hind legs. It's not done well but the wonder is that it's done the 12 my now we're used to that kind of comment. We're used to the idea that men are contemptuous of the things that that women can't do nearly as well as men can do. But when groups start arising. But suggest that women may have contempt for men.

We feel much more threatened. Now I don't know Mr. President if you were a member of scum. This assignment was to start you on the ground as misguided as it always floats to the top was. The top of the On this occasion at any rate was the president of the Women's Liberation Movement doesn't seek to dictate to women who are quite happy as they are. It is articulating the discontent of women who are not happy as they are. It's saying it's representing the women who are sick of dependence upon men who are sick of a situation which is justified because it's convenient as a specialized nation of

responsibilities as far as society as a whole is concerned because it's a convenient division of labor. As far as men are concerned for women to do the housework and for men to come home in the evening to a lovely warm meal but which hasn't been considered in terms of its utility or its limitations or the frustration or the discontent that it implies for women. And I know that the biological myths have been overthrown. Mr. President the Women's Liberation Movement is saying the future is in their own hands. The women's liberation movement is saying no I'm sorry I'm nearly finished now. The women's liberation movement is saying we're looking forward to the time when we can also talk to Johnson's male chauvinist remark to the following. The sight of men preaching against women's liberation will indeed remind us of a dog walking on its hind legs.

They want to be able to do it well but it will be an amazing thing that they still manage to scrape up the sophistries to do it a total. I ask you to join me in supporting the women women's liberation movement and to support this motion. I call on Mr. Stephen or call of Jesus College to speak against Michael was with the president. Ladies and gentleman men and women. Tonight we are in the presence of the world's most liberated lady. Dr. Germain Greer whose book has been reprinted no less than eight times ladies and gentlemen which must mean somebody is interested in female you know. Now let's take a look at women's liberation movement in England today. It's a diffuse

organization and it's very difficult to find out what it's actually standing for it has no national policy as such but I was lucky enough to get hold of a magazine called Enough. And not everyone gets enough I'm writing in this particular magazine. Suzy Fleming asks the question what do we want. And she answered it as well but you have to wait a long time and read a lot of the article to find out what she does want was. Hmm she said it's impossible to answer briefly. There isn't a single demand you can trot out now she's playing hard to get. And women's liberation. Women specialize in that.

But she says more traditional politics can't begin to deal with the sort of changes we're talking about. So now we're getting closer and now she comes up with this particular little gem. The fact that women have been relegated to secondary roles in political activity as dangerous consequence enough to enable the ruling class to use a divide and rule policy against the working class. They've uncovered another conspiracy ladies and gentleman a capitalist borzois ethic is at it again. They're suppressing women to keep an icy grip on the working class. And yet another capitalist a lot. And we're not unfamiliar with pot in this society. We're faced with a women's liberation movement whose concern for women is not their only concern. And remember Mr. President the next house tonight we are debating the movement. We are not debating liberation for women. I quote from the magazine socialist woman. I quote from the magazine socialist woman thought.

Gay labor and women's lib are fighting the same oppressive ideology. I am men I suppose I am. But they have common aims. I am I in the wrath of the women's liberation clearly aligned itself with what is called the New Left. Young people with old ideas. These people see society in terms of oppression groups and to grab power and exploit the class below them. Women's liberation sees women as an oppressive and repressed group within the oppressive society and as such it itself ideally into the New Left. A lot of emotion tonight is

that we should support this movement. Well if you say if you accept the rigid class divisions that the new left imposes on us if you believe their analysis of society then perhaps you will support this motion. But remember if you do that you are not voting just to liberate women but you will be voting for the movement. Clearly under validly part of what has come to be called the New Left. So if you believe. So if you believe that from the family to the factory there is a conspiracy of male capitalist whose self-interest makes them keep women in chains and vote for this motion. But if you can see progress in the context of present society and I think many of you will be able to. And if you can see women having wider opportunities without a revolution and I'm sure you can. And in that case you will grow this motion act as the president I beg to oppose top

of it. I call upon all consuming to speak and in favor of the motion of the top of. I Mr President I don't know what to say either. Ladies and gentleman. Oh men and women. It strikes me as very odd that when I used to live ceremonial form of approach I have to put the men first and when I have to belong to a class of ladies and gentleman I put the ladies first. It must be that one class is more skilled in hypocrisy than the other. Now when I argue here when I argue here for your support for the women's liberation movement I am not asking your support for

the editorial board of socialist women or women. Listen I'm not asking for your support but the editorial quality of the paper called Enough. I'm asking you really to consider whether or not you can countenance the normal liberation of any group in your community and whether or not you are still afraid of the characteristics and personality that one half of the human race. But you cannot allow them room to move or a voice to be heard. I was. While I am sure you are not afraid because no one is more aware than I. But women in this universe did not did not so much fight for admission to the ancient colleges and the new upstart college that admission was given them. Because presumably somebody

considered it to be in the best interests of the colleges in question and that somebody God knows was not a woman. I believe that at last minute beginning to realize where their own self-interest is best. If you want better relationships with their lives. If you want better relationships with women you're going to have to conduct yourselves in such a way that those relationships are possible. Now I must say I have my own misgivings about the degree to which Cambridge University is capable of conducting better relations with women. To me it would not be a total surprising if this house did not support women's liberation. In fact I'd be rather astonished to discover that this house accorded anybody's liberation. I. It'll keep this house does support women's liberation. Our children's liberation though means liberation or Turris liberation.

I can only assume that it has been infiltrated by an alien group. During the course of the day by a group who came because they cared more about the subject under discussion and about the ancient traditions of this establishment which is allowed itself to become an entertainment society like College Glee Club. Much I move I don't wish to belabor this point because it's so damned parochial and because so many people just wouldn't believe what kind of a high school it's really is. I know when I was in Cambridge I occupied. I'm sorry you have an objection. Just as with your lives. I believe that colleges and women's colleges would close about it now. Paul do you think I knew when information was that we were allowed members of until 11 and of Nagano sexual intercourse can

take place any hour of the day. I know. Yes I remember that point was material but something in your look I mean I am the world of course especially for the Mable. In fact nobody got on the tour at night during that moment. Haven't quite started because I am because you got that wrong. I am the second bit mother that I am convinced that it uses. But I believe that in the days when Mrs Bankwest saw a mistake I made was kind press I am pre-amp.

I like the witch but I'd like to get the point of motion which I what I'm really driving at is the fact that when I was at Cambridge I was it was there was a fantastic amount of sexual tension in this community. Now I'm not talking in in News of the world terms. I know better because I'm a university teacher and a graduate of three universities. I know better than I. I don't regard it as a distinction and such a common thing going on about you but I know perfectly well let the fevered imagination of the editorial board of The News of the world dictate is not true. There is not unlimited sexual activity probing behind the world of the institution. I agree with you entirely that it's OK.

I don't come here to get me to like you into that I don't like the way I move. I idly think that if I am so defensive I have to tell you that I'm not speaking of just one university but three that this demonstrates arrogance I rather go to demonstrated paranoia I call. Thank you Alan. And looking back I'm sorry if my speech so far has indicated nothing but intellectual arrogance. It is too much the inheritance of my education I should so a good deal of intellectual arrogance. But I hope that some plain speaking would emerge from it as well. And I'm a little cause of the common myths that are being peddled about our situation as women in universities need what I want to sort out a little bit.

Every woman at this university if faced with the dialin mom of absorbing a system of values which is inimical to any tradition that homosex of established on their own behalf. Now this may not be as great a setback as it seems. When I was here studying I used to attend a class given by Dr. Levy and whoever thinks that Cambridge has become a mediocre place usually makes some sort of an exception the doctor leaves either on the ground better than mediocre or worse than mediocre. But we seem to be agreed that mediocre He is not. All that I know about English criticism was taught by Leave aside and imbibe eventually by me at his knee literally in his house in Mostar gardens. Now I remember Doctor Leavis talking about Virginia Woolf and the chief burden of his criticism was of Virginia Woolf was a woman. And the suicide

and everything can she ever wrote contained beautiful evidence that she was both female and suicidal. And I learned as well as I could to trace down this defect in ego this defenselessness this helplessness in the geneal and to punish it as a. Effective style. I never understood that when I was looking at was part of the pathology of oppression. Part of the curious way in which a woman in her situation educated herself to be a writer and then was a writer. In this curious unreal situation I was woman protected by man from the very contact with the outside world that should have been the life God of her art which it may even be true. She was incapable of rethinking because to damage people she ever began. Now most of this is speculation is problematical but what was not problematical was that I as a woman who was trained to be the

most unsparing critique of my own tradition. So I was left as an intellectual somehow unprovided somehow. More identified in the scheme of values which I could not translate into justification of my own sex is battered and defective contribution to a culture which only allowed them to participate in a curious way. This intellectual dialogue is all the most serious. It's the kind of intellectual dilemma that makes women drown themselves that makes them what they are going Jacobins the makes them carry out their best poems and refuse to show them to people to be with out of tradition is about the most dreadful deprivation that an artist can probably can possibly undergo. It's up to the artist whether he decides to revolt against it to condescend to it to reject it in every way. But he needs it he needs to know that there are channels in which he may proceed if he wishes to have to dig your own channel.

It's like a man running in a blindfold race. He doesn't know if he isn't just running in entirely the wrong direction and the girl escapes him altogether. When we talk about women's liberation all the women's liberation movements which the opposition has redefined as the editorial board of various newspapers which she happens to have read when we're talking about the women's liberation movement we are talking about an impetus arising from the home of our society. I mean because as old as our culture which is at last moving into an area in which you can realize it's most noble aspirations because it is now impossible to control without risking life and destroying morality because it is now possible to reorganize our industrial structures away from the importance of physical strength and towards the importance of dexterity and application and goodwill because these things are possible.

It is now possible for the heartfelt cry of women who are not. My grandmother my great grandmother women whose lines have extinguished long ago. It is now possible for what they are good for to be realized. And if it is realized the result. It must be a better life for us all. And I don't mean more comfortable because God knows for the first two generations it won't be the first several generations it won't be because we have an enormous intellectual weight upon our shoulders we have to invent a way of life which was never before possible. But at least we can argue in the true sense of beta that we have a more moral existence. When women act out of free choice when they contract themselves to people out of free choice when they produce work which is their bear when they are able to face criticism when they have enough intellectual and spiritual muscle not to break down and be eaten by ox or your husband from the pressure of cultural examination I am not. Talking to this

audience as I would talk to those of my sisters who are working in factories which seem to be called by the opposition will be an innovation we apparently have not headed one in three American in this country are at work and most of them in menial occupations. One phrase married women in this most wonderful of all worlds. I am not talking to you as I would talk to those women who have more to teach me about being a woman than I know because I have always be a kind of remittance man. I will always be in a privileged is complete for my own sakes. It's true that I've been given this strange booby prize of being regarded as a lesbian or a maniac or something of the sort. But distinguished women however distinguished either by the actors or groups wearing the C or whatever have always been regarded as a sexual deviant. It's an easy way out of having to consider them as a POS. Ability among the rest of women who have not been allowed to develop so I speak to you then as a female escapade as a traitor as a White

Negro. It was learnt the values of my oppressed knows how to apply them. You two are in a similar situation. We can only redeem ourselves and justify our privilege if we agree to work for the boss majority of women including most of our members. Most of our sisters most of our cousins and possibly even the inexorable ebb and flow of the situation our daughters as well. Unless we can work for those women we cannot have dignity because we are here as a peace and remittance women. And I ask you to offer nothing less than an exploding future into full adult hood and full moral responsibility to gigs. For

I call on Mr. William here now to speak for and against the most. Thank you very much. On this Presidents this grid is good honest Algarve ladies and gentlemen. I'm happy to be here grateful for your invitation. Grateful for the experience of listening to the predecessor speakers from whom I learned a great deal. Grateful to Mr usual. Yeah.

I was telling I was giving a list of everyone I was grateful to you don't miss anything here. I'm across here as an advocate as is Miss Miss Greer whose brilliance is perhaps the principal asset of the movement. However I do I do hope you will understand if I said quite bluntly that I would not have wasted your time or spent a great deal of my own. My burden here tonight was to oppose for women in the room to move. To quote Miss Greer a voice to be heard. To quote again Miss.

I do not remember ever having opposed educational opportunities for women for that matter industrial or political opportunities for women and this is quite collect correct in her insight that it is inconsistent with my my general position to do anything of the sort. We are here to debate not women's liberation. But as Mr. Alcott reminded us the women's liberation movement and those who do not allow an important distinction between the two terms do not for instance allow a distinction between the fight against poverty and a movement against the other thing that is led by representatives of of an ideological creed. Miss Miss Miss Graeme understand is not

always easy to follow in part because she tends to contradict herself. Those of you those of you who have read her extraordinary book so so rich in scholarship and ingenuity and insight and I'm not being in the least sarcastic well. However on our merge with a certain skin some find it difficult is because our half of it is devoted to the thesis that there are no differences between men and women and the other half the way it is not a it is not the first half versus the second half of the paradox as a spliced. And the other the other is devoted to the notion that in fact men and women are significantly different. You are of course familiar. It is I suppose it is I suppose the

original charge against male chauvinism. A word which begins to ploy on the other side of the Atlantic as I hope it begins to deploy here based on the exploitation of sex by by men. It seems to me however are all together on a plane that miscreant who knows understands her theatrical resources and has very definitely exploited sex in the course of attempting to shock people into a recognition of the women's liberation movement. I cannot understand any obvious reason for her serving as a contributing editor to a magazine called Sark. Which magazine she was recently questioned about by a journalist who said to her you must have noticed that among other things your magazine contains pictures of young children in the lock and sexual embrace women

copulating with machines homosexuals penetrating thought of I wearing Nazi uniforms and references to people being forced to eat and drink human waste to which she replies I don't approve of that kind of thing. But on the other hand I'm not on the other hand she says. She says that's the way things are and she does not desire to censor them out of her own magazine putting forward therefore a definition of censorship as leaving out things from your paper irrespective of your position towards them. Yes yes I congratulate you and I thank you. I find that this present a very optimistic datum about women's liberation. To dismiss if

you will as I say insecurity is a fact of life. I am one of the one of Miss miscreants. A special willingness to communicate the whole gamut of emotions to continue to follow standard and also the whole gamut of her vocabulary. She was asked recently do you fall in and out of love a lot and she replied I think I gave up falling in love when I was about 19 cents and I've allowed myself to be misled into it again. When that happens I become absolutely unscrupulous totally dishonest and I can do nothing about it. From being an interesting and independent woman I just become a complete pain. I regret very much that Miss Grey is

out of love but I appreciate the complimentary performance and I moved on the assumption that the enslavement of women is something that can only be dislodged by revolutionary means. It doesn't do at all to suggest to her that in fact progress has been made because she said that progress is largely richly told Good night. She does not really believe that significant progress can be made because in fact women are locked into a relationship with men who are themselves the slave masters who must themselves be liberated it is impossible she points out after mystically to liberate slaves without liberating the slave masters and under the circumstances she says that we must have nothing less than revolution if you like old fashioned about certain things in a way that I have no reason to suppose that that you are

you are not a miscreant relies most heavily in her rich book full of mythology full of literary allusion A-B. We were discussing a political movement. I feel it should be rather out of place to discuss this political movement in the context of some sexual abuse of leading protagonists of this movement. It is not therefore rather our place to discuss women's liberation movement only in terms of the political views of some of its protagonist. If you were right I would agree with you.

I. I went I went to some pains to to establish the relevance of Ms Green positions to the emotion here tonight. If this were an insignificant figure in her movement it would be easy to pre send her own views from her own movement but of course it isn't. In any event you should see what I have left out. If you feel that I have been a moderate this miscreant herself understands the use of human imagery and human beings and human situations in making points vividly she she has on several occasions felt that she could most easily exemplify her point. Bye Bye bye.

In fact citing the activity of people the failures in the early triumphs of people as I say in a most concrete way she wrote in a recent essay on Norman Mailer that when she was prepared to face him in debate the thought ran through her mind what fun it would be to accept all his thrice Sonicwall challengers and then unveil to him his own womenfolk including his dark and velvety daughters and asked them what they think of him if only. The curse of women would not tie their tongues. So now we see several things from that passage. Among them that is considered a curse by someone who is a champion of the women's liberation movement but as I say in conclusion Mr. President I do feel that the institutions which I continue to understand be the framework of the society. I have not in fact shown themselves to be useless.

The progress that we all hope to make not only in this field but in others and in my judgment will be done in the context of free institutions in context of the family and in context of many of the institutions which Miss Korea I suppose as must be tumbled before we can proceed. There are people who wish in their enthusiasm for a women's liberation movement to take bulldozers and move down these and other trees so that they can sow the seeds of their offenses I pray that this will not happen and that you will not urgent to have them which I call on Miss is the venue of Grace College to speak in faith. The motion

which I didn't think of the married woman and woman. Many people many people in the house when you dress yourself to the idea of cutting ties with the president Mr. President are nice women I watch. That was last week. Anyway what I was going to say was that no one here but me being a major speaker. But I'm not sure some of you might not suspect me of being unfeminine because I'm a very

staunch supporter of the women's liberation movement here and in America and it does seem to many people that that movement is trying to upturn our society from the very root and one of the major concentrations of our society is to encourage every girl child who is born into it to conform to the feminine image. A little go at every little girl in this country follows this pattern as far as I know is put up with the primary idea of one possible career for her in life is matrimony. She learned through a very early age to flirt with daddy to become daddy's go. She learned to make a clean and tidy and to make pastry and to cook daddy dinner and even in short exactly like mommy. When you get a little older she sees the world a lot of love to unmarried women. However good unkindly and intelligent they may be she has been called spinsters

and she sees that they are ridiculed because they have failed in the one primary female duty better bludgeoning some poor man into marrying them. I hate and despise and loathe beyond all words. The so-called liberal twentieth century attitude of men towards women. The attitude that of course there are people in their own right. But of course they should enjoy their own private sex life which means in effect it's just become compulsory nowadays to enjoy sexual intercourse and that because of that and because there are great liberal here it enjoys being dominant then in the course of nature it is natural for a woman to enjoy being submissive and that she is sick or worse still frigid. If she does not do things in society to masculine is to be masterful and to be feminine is to be servile and so I come back to the original thesis of my speech that men do not like uncommon in women and that being translated means

that men do not like women and that their childish deferring and submissive. Mr. President I appeal to you. Am I didn't you the. I have a good information but my wife may not but me great pleasure to press my question to Mr. Carter. Would you like to have been born a woman under these conditions. I was and in spite of all our conditioning even in 1972 we still had some humanity left in that which is manifested in the women's liberation movement. And if you only if you come out of that humanity that we still love men believe it or not some of

us to start but I still love men I think most of us do. I need to tell you because we love you all that we're prepared to go through with these agonizing conditions to make you love us. But honestly wouldn't you prefer to be loved by adult women who are your equals with whom you can discover the possibilities of the world with whom and exchange your own ideas and missions of the possibility. Wouldn't you prefer to be loved by a creature who is fundamentally like you in that she is a human being and I need to control like you because she is a woman and to love you not because it is an economic necessity for her. We do so because she finds a new accompaniment to herself. Would you really prefer to love such a creature rather than the pitiful little painted dog who had an idea in her head but it still resentful because she knows very well that she hasn't reached her full potential in life. Would you honestly not prefer to love a woman as she should be and have a real woman as the brother of your children. I have kept somewhat local Mr. President and I feel that I do feel it had to be said because of the Women's Liberation Movement is not concerned primarily with clobbering men or with equal

pay for equal work. It is concerned with allowing women to be people with helping them to become what we should be creatures worth loving and worth being loved by. And I don't believe anyone in this room can reject such a proposal. Mr. President I voted. I've called on Mr. Kevin Carey of Downing College from the crossbenches. I would point out that if anyone wishes to interrupt Kevin with a please stand up and I will ring my bell. So I mean I think you know move the hotel or you can take the glassware on. Mr. President members of the house. The assertion that all human beings to be equal is because of the or

immoral under political judgement. A judgment which in the past few centuries has become increasingly acceptable in our society. On the other hand the assertion that all men are equal is untrue as it has ever been. Similarly to the assertion that women ought to have equal opportunity with men is an extension of the first he says. And his political and the assertion that men and women are the same is an extension of the second thesis and I'm glad it's not true. I'm asking this house to abstain on this notion because while I support women's rights as a logical consequence of my belief in the first thesis I do not believe the second thesis to be true and I do not think that the women's liberation movement has approached the problem of equality of opportunity with very much sense. They're social to all human beings.

You don't need to class the assertion that's all make up when possible to bring about 80. Thank you. OK where are you now. Oh good. I would mean Iraq. Define your parameters of equality before you start. We only thought that I expressed what I believe is equality of opportunity and I believe I made a distinction between that and being the same. Thank you. The assertion that all human beings ought to have equality of opportunity is not taken on a new dimension. With the rise of the women's liberation movement it has just been buried in rather emotive jargon which washes over from the rather subjective thought involved in the belief that men and women are in some sense which nobody's yet

defined the same. We have all been brought up to believe that saw physical makeup is affected by our psyche. So this is affects our psyche. We also know that the brains of males and females develop differently and we also know that environment and social conditioning affect our thoughts. And it is the object of the women's liberation movement to change this conditioning. That change can be brought about only through political reform and through personal relations and the example we set in personal relations. It cannot be done through slogans or through an appeal to emotions. I beg to ask the House to abstain. I've

seen this the final speech against America and I call him Mr. David holder of Corpus Christi College. Mr. President ladies and gentleman I understand that it all starts about the age of full when little girls realize that little boys have something they haven't and which comes in very useful at picnics. From this little girl. I from this point onwards in life a difference is defined which as the psycho sexual identity develops becomes more and more pronounced metaphorically speaking.

This is a basic psychological fact that men occupy the extremes in life criminals mental defectives. The best and the worst are men. Not to say genius is all or in color blindness. And I would like to quote Please allow me to sometimes present the top rungs of the achievement ladder certainly occupied by men and this is very likely a basic psychological fact as opposed to a sociological one. Since the bottom rungs of this and other lodges tend also to be occupied by men. This is from a book by Alan Hines. Alice time herself a woman. There are definite absolute quantifiable differences between the sexes which do controversy but there should be equality of rows. There should be a quality of value in Syria said Rose. After all as a pretty go one said some

women are a sex by themselves so to speak. Thank you. The House will now proceed to a vote on the motion when the Division Bell is wrong. When all those who wish to vote in favor of the marriage on this Chris side please go out through the door marked on eyes and all those who wish to vote against the most and honest about their side through the door mom know this. The emotional House tonight was now supports the women's liberation movement voted in favor of the motion five hundred forty six persons that voted against the measure for one hundred fifty six.

I declare the motion counted by a majority of 300 votes and miscreant is the winner. Our on this program was a joint production of a TV network Ltd the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation the South Carolina TV network and the Southern educational Communications

Association. You have been listening to a debate between Germain Greer And William F. Buckley on the Cambridge Union debating society motion that this House support the women's liberation movement. This program was made possible with funds provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is NPR National Public Radio. When when

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