Bob Seymour With; Ferdie Pacheco

This coffee is cold out there. Coffee is the one thing that stuff around here but I don't really like I don't like coffee in radio stations it's made out of acid and been here since 1934. I see it with me I mean. Oh yeah because you believe my ass is you know that everything is right in front of London. No wonder I hear it and you go and wonder make it begin to me love and from the C-5 those are the two biggies the two biggies here you know this is a sampler from that big volume that came out a couple years back and I'm not that another playing this and this is a kind of thing we want for our book out right. It has several really bad sides of summertime from the few who are just OK. We're both there. The music of already. And speaking with us tonight here in the

studio at WSF eighty nine point seven is a man we could talk about many things with and will touch on a few of those other aspects of your wide ranging career but a real renaissance man who's lately concentrating on already shot. Welcome to the studio doc refer the Pacheco thank you so much. I'm a pleasure to be here after a six hour search for this building. We don't like it we don't make it. The CIA should be in here he can find the CIA building faster than this one. And I appreciate me and because I like to talk music with people that know music and all of my life has been musing along the musician and one already shows one of the people that. Crept up on me at 10 and when I was 10 years old and he broke my heart at 13. I never experienced heartbreak. I wrote this book and then the book actually sells and something of the book is Who is Artie Shaw and why is he following me and that is the story of the addle pated stupid adventure that I had following everything about

Artie Shaw from the age of 10 till now I'm 74 and that's embarrassing. But that's like a groupie that never grows up or a stalker and I reflect I mean finally I caught up with Artie Shaw just this year and just this year when I'm 74 and he's 92 and I'm doing a book with him where I we're putting a record with the book and selling it this process really for next Christmas and he goes you know this Christmas is gone and. So anyway when I was sitting there thinking about things. I was thinking about heartbreak. When's the first time I'm talking about all of this is beside your mother would you I'm drawing I was a first time think about it that you ever experience heartbreak when Jerry Simonson you want real real real bad. And they broke your heart. He was your parents did it or you did it. I mean my life was perfect I was 13 I mean perfect I had the best family in the world I loved anywhere city all my friends were great everything was great. When any show is going to appear in a park here I mean my friend Henry Angle who was a client of

us in Tampa in Tampa who Dr. Ingle son but he was a fiendishly dedicated clarinets. So we said Henry guess what Arnie Shar heroes coming to the bank so we went back to lodge we're going to stay the whole day all three days for three days and all of sudden the Tom-Tom start nightmare starts. But no Artesia outcome as a manager and as the Early Show band is here. But you saw disappear last night. Nobody has vanished nobody can find out where he went to and if you want your money back you know in the end they're going to play on but if you want your money back. You know at which point the entire park theater got up and left. You know who's going to be going to the already shot minutes because they've already shot not a bunch of musicians here. It's something and once I get out in the middle of the summer hotter now and I'm going to walk from the Park Theater across from the university all the way to my house on Lamar St. and I were St. Joseph Hospital. How does well and I find myself crying all 13 years on a regret about anything I mean even when I you know even when I get my head split done a regret and I

would cry I mean and here I am. My experience heartbreak and I talk to my son. He's so bitter. I mean I can see the emotion I don't know how to handle I mean I've been divorced twice and I have any heartbreak there are you know a lot of relief but in our brain you know I mean it's like you lose a girl you get another one it's not nothing's too important in life you know and I didn't I didn't experience anything then and the finding I tell to Story Corps and which would seem to be so appropriate was my daughter you know my life I love my life I've been married 32 years the same way that we had a little girl we started and she's just perfect. She never cried. What ever you told her she did you know she first grade you walked in there like she on the school I mean you know nothing about this kid. She was like I was completely happy with my life. And we said at the end of the night when she would sit and watch television with her mother and her mother and I in bed when it came time to to go to bed at 8 or 9 o'clock I go into the kitchen and grab some cookies put her in bed while she ate I told her a

story story it was never the same. I mean I don't know why she grew up normal because the stories were really strange. I kept changing the stories anyway. So one night. I'm watching the story and I'm watching I'm watching I'm watching and she says Come on give me that get me to go get them or if I am exasperated and I said George you're big enough now go to the kitchen get a glass of milk some cookies taken back here and I'll be there in a minute I'll read you a story and she starts to cry. I mean screaming crying and there were her crying and I didn't know what she what she sounded like crying. And so I'm so surprised I said you know I never heard you cry before. And she put her hands I am like this is this is up to now everything's been OK. That's exactly what I felt like when they already shot that she experienced heartbreak at 5 I had it at 13 and you're listening dummy I want to you I want I mean you know I was I was writing this autobiography is going to be coming out next year called Blood in my coffee. I was writing different times and I got to the chapter on that that because I'm a doctor and because

of unboxing and because I've been in civil wars and mafia and Muslim God knows how many times and I thought to myself I wrote the first chapter was the first sentence was how many times have you actually faced death and how many times it was in your ballpark that you were going to die the next minute you know. He goes you're drowning your human thanks to the you going or cliff or black guy's got a gun to your head saying Give me your money you know what. And I figured out that I hadn't actually been in this store about 13 times is that right. And then I. After that I got about another ten. Other than that I didn't count. You know I mean cannot all be I mean. Airlines where you missed the runway by an inch miss a mountain by an inch which we had and the corona. So anyway it gave me a lot of time to write to ruminate and to think how close we are to death on this earth and how lucky we are. We were hanging on here by a string.

Now every time I come to Tampa they give me a list of guys that are dying. Yeah I mean it's like Valley Forge. I don't want to go even the trouble goes I was jumping more we go as soon as they see me everybody. Guess who has cancer of the prostate you know. No don't tell me just tell me who was born give me the good news. But anyway the Artie Shaw book a labor of love for you were you were you had your heart broken by missing already. Yeah when you were about I bought every one of those records over and over and over again goes about 30 records of you know being you know so was it 2002 when you finally met him face to face and talk to him. Yeah. You know once I was and he was sweet he was nice I'm going to reach for these feisty and I mean he doesn't he doesn't like to waste his time I mean he's not going to chit chat with you. He has not and I mean I don't know and if he's going to talk he got a better chance or he's going to talk about himself which is what I was there for. So I mean I fit the bill.

You guys have had a bit of a miscommunication from the start. You didn't didn't you. Right right the only thing before I started he got he got a little feisty the beginning he said For me I mean I love the title of your book but you know that's not right and or follow you. I said it's just a joke right. The guy is so you know so round up in himself and his and his bro. But I said no we talked exhaustively about everything you can think of for example a down ground rules. None he would let me bring my wife which is a big mistake because she's a big big plus to anything she's got a tape recorder she's got a photographer and she's going to looking she makes things easy to look at. Yeah. And Shaw is a sucker for good looks. I think we know he had it had he seen or she would have she would have been in. But anyway so we just sat like you were doing right here talking about things that for example. That's why I think my book is very good I don't buy things I never saw written anybody I mean this show has been giving interviews for nice some ideas when you don't find something new about it you know. So I was looking for new things. You never want to talk about your Navy

career. He makes a face he said. The nadir of my life. I don't want to talk about it because I've had 50 years of psychoanalysis trying to forget about it. He says I don't want to remember it. So I said well you got to remember it for a while longer. Tell me some. Tell me what you what you've been and then we got into the Navy and the Navy was such an interesting thing. It's usually detail about what he did and he shot the shooter shot this size. He said I'm in the middle of a dance at Harvard someplace and they're dancing to start us. And I'm thinking to myself well and everybody's in uniform and I'm going to what I'm doing sitting here totally on a planet when everybody's in the service. I should be in the service and he's old enough to get out of meanness or he didn't have to go. But Glenn Miller had gone no interest. Me enough the Navy had turned down Glenn Miller turned him down he went to the Air Force in the game a captain's commission and Sharni ended up being a major some forty nine and so shots you know I'm going

in without tipping over him as he assume that everybody knows he's the king is the number one band he's and he goes in and they put on a minesweeper in the North Atlantic where his fingers almost fall off or frostbite if they do that's the end of his career. So for six months he said he's in the most acute agony. He said You just can't I mean ceasing agony and horrible cold frozen. And when he gets back he goes to the hospital. He's no love soon as again I spoil and he goes AWOL. But on his civilian clothes which is. Against the law in wartime and carries a one year in the brig sometimes drives to Washington D.C. I got the gas I don't know who's to have four gallons in and goes to see the secretary and I me I mean you know for our work out there I mean he just got he says I wasn't suing suit because I can walk in as Artesia but as seaman Shaw I want to get past the door. So it goes although we have to the top or an admiral is holding the gate. He's read on here so I've come to see him

Forrestal He said Aren't you already shot. Yeah in June and he said yeah who are you assuming causes of mine to come up as invited as anyone invited Raney forestalling No he was not there so he just he just called on here I'm supposed to be and for some companies a big fan already shot an embrace of what are you doing here Arnie says well I got to talk to you and so install other promises. I walked in there hoping it will go to jail and I walked out with the band and the petty officers and they would make me an officer that also made him he said you know I'm the number. One band in the country and I can't get a simple old lieutenants ready whereas going Miller gets to be a captain you know. Yeah so that was him but he didn't start it you started out wrong but he said I want I don't want to do it my Miller's doing going around Air Force bases where it's safe. I want to go in combat. I want to go to the Pacific and the Navy said oh don't worry about that. That's exactly where you go and they put you on a ship.

And he went to all advanced combat bases he played go out and I was still tough there. He said and you know everywhere we went they dug us a slit trench just because we were always getting bombed or strafed or snipers in the trees he said we didn't. Well none of us got hit by by luck but they shot us like crazy every engagement all those bullets flying he said and sickness like you can't believe. There was never a time he said that I set out with my full band to play over somebody who was on the side on up or something and he said it was the most physical agony and then the instruments start to fall apart because of the humidity and the heat he's my clarinet was held together with scotch tape airplane glue paper clips these and I don't know where I was when the notes were coming from half the time. He said I couldn't play. I mean I was just awful. So I said yeah but. Do you ever have a time in your life and I see a radio audience as well as you where you can say well from that time on my life changed.

I'm aware of who I am. I became aware of who I am. So I said let's follow that thought a minute. You already show you're making twenty six thousand dollars a week in the Depression in 1930 when you walked away. You're not got a Navy man. It's a petty officer. And when did it occur to you that you just weren't you know you after after you he said you know 40 people look at you. They look at you. Artie Shaw the Artie Shaw thing he says you're made your mayor like that cardboard cut out of the record store you're like that forever. But you're not you're growing just like you are and to get there you were a kid like everybody else and just the year before they made that picture you were scuffling on weren't wondering where you going to get the red and where's the next game coming from. And then one year you make begin to begin and people are chasing you down the street trying to take your clothes off he said. It's very disorienting. He said and it's very uncomfortable. He's the reason I left. I called everybody morons that made the papers and I

didn't mean that they were that I meant that there were morons in that they came to listen to me. They pay the $5 admission. They stink came to the bandstand and they screamed for four hours. I'm playing on my mind. I'm playing my music. I can't hear it I can't hear my man I can't hear the piano I can't hear the drums they're screaming one of the screaming about what. What do they pay the money to hear themselves. Meanwhile we have the same phenomena with I was present with the Beatles where the Grateful Dead with all concerts and now they are screaming. And I don't know who who listens to what I mean because amplification is so high now but in those days there was no amplification. You playing what you you played with your brain. So I ask you what was your reason. The Navy gave me my defining moment my opinion. He said We came to an aircraft carrier is 1943 were getting sunk I mean that was I think there were three carriers left in the Pacific then sunk everything else he said and it was by I mean it was a battle torn I mean coming cause it landed on my say so it was a mess he said and we

landed on. And we went to an airplane elevator which is a big square elevator to hell thing that goes up and down. And they said there were about a thousand sailors on deck all dressed in white screaming and hollering. Now we start to go down. It was another day another thousand screaming and hollering then another day another thousand and then the final that all the officers the enrolment. And they started screaming and we can stop and it went on for half an hour. The officers try to stop everybody I don't know but it's not just plain old screaming they're going to start and three times we tried and tried to start the theme song we couldn't hear ourselves. And finally he thought he says right there it occurred to me he says you know already oh boy I think you have finally become part of America. He says they weren't just cherry me. He said they were cheering a band aunt and that transported every one of those guys back to a pleasant time.

Like her dance with her girlfriend or their wife or whatever and it was starting Shogren member of any government. You were back there and that we had become icons. These people he said and it was a slice of it was a slice of Americana right. Yeah it brought you back to where you were when you were the happiest. Saturday night dancing you're going for the Arri shark struck and then he said Well from then on I had a little bit more respect for him and he said it took a half hour to get started he said but but it he said it's annoying when you get there to play. And you realize you're not going to listen to you. They're just there because of what he calls the Artie Shaw thing. Yeah and he says I can't. And the end of the story well go to your questions in a minute. Then the stories when we finish well by the way at the end of that he went he came in port here had it was riddled with all kind of thing took me a year to get physically well and then he had a nervous right now and then he had another year of intense psycho therapy before you go out and start playing you know is that right. And then we decide well I better start.

I better start because of the money is going on but of course it wasn't because he had put out five records or Alright million and hit money it was just pouring in all the time and then at that time he managed to garner and married her. And wasn't too bad to bring best of the year and I know my last 40 years I have going to try to educate them. He's in the universe and I said you know you should have started the you know Artie shows university you know instruction of dumb sort of dumb starlets or beautiful but ignorant whether it was sort of the yeah you know he's an oh he was really and I said OK let's go back because now I'm talking already shot the person. Yeah I'm not talking Artie Shaw the legend I'm not talking Artie Shaw. For a magazine article to glamour I am not publishing I'm just like you. I've been following you all my life. Tell me something about yourself by yourself. I mean you go read about me all over the place that was not me. That's what the publicity is. Let's talk about you. Why would the most intelligent man leave ever been because you you are the most and you're the only

one that ever thinks about something besides music and the best looking because you were a movie star good looking and the riches because you were making $26000 a week. Go off on a blind date on a date was a blind date. Well Lana Turner when she was 18 years old and end up married at the end of the night I mean who does something that stupid. You know I said you know let's face it that's stupid. I mean don't tell me. He said Fernie. Once again once again you're following the trap you have your preconceived notion of what I was at 26. Let me tell you what I was at twenty six and twenty six years on I was working so hard to make my band sound good. We play a gig we play a set and then I go to the rehearsal hall and play the whole thing all over again until four in the morning till I got it right. If I heard things that were wrong I would be working on it to a lower right. Consequently for six months in Hollywood I never went out with anybody. I worked on a picture called a dancing Cohens with Lana Turner and they both hated each other because they both had the same thing in common they were low you

know shoes or lower so when he was in love there was no room for anybody else in there you know he was he really is an egomaniac and so uses. So here I was she had she was engaged to be married it was great but singer who was a who was a lawyer man about time and he called and said I can't take you know I'm busy at the office. Well she's 18 she's all dressed up to go to the Macomber or whatever you know. Well full of stupid and spiteful and you know all the things that 18 year old gorgeous girls are and she said Oh yeah I'm putting a phone call are you just because you want to be a man and said I'm not taking me to supper. And you know he was so flattered because he was really going up but he just but but the thing was when I went to get or walked out that door was so heavenly. He's a remember I have been there for six months and I've been out with a girl and I'm 26 and I'm not one of those kind of guys that likes to wait around I mean I've always had a lot of action for six months I had not been in action and I looked at what came out that

door. You are married right then you know I said if that's what it takes to get better with her tonight I'm doing it and so they started to dare each other and there you go here and there you go I win very dare you to run on our point I dare you to go to Arizona when I got there a lot of shots of what you don't hear she says where you get married and they got married I mean I said that in retrospect wasn't that a little bit. There's always a lot stupid. But if you'd seen her you know I'm going to tell you you would have done the same thing I don't care doctor's degree and all your five degrees only you know you look at an attorney thousand years all you cut your arm off and think they're getting better. So he was human you know what I'm trying to tell you the story is he has us I mean we know he isn't anybody. Some got a golden guy he was not seen as just as horny as we are and just as eager to satisfy every hour and I mean and then we go start talking at the end of his life he says. He says well I said well what's going to be up there when you go. So originally in my will I had and he did the best he could with what God

gave him and I was I thought well that's unfair that's good he said I changed it because it wasn't Now leave me alone you know. He's of the mind. My student is two words go away. Go away don't bother me any more. That seems to fit what we know of already I think but I don't think he's gone now that he's 92 I guess he's had his taste of solitude All right. He's reveling in all the attention I was before you couldn't get in the gate to talk to him he just wanted to be left alone. But now he seems to be having a good I mean call me I'm all excited they're doing a big biography of me. I said well they should. They say he refuses to have a movie done. He says Have you ever seen a movie biography that's anything as a nun. You're right and about Jan particularly about musicians when I was so fatuous and so stupid because I've been a musician is about his music. I mean it's like doing it for a plumber or a street car conductor. That's what he does for a living. Play music my way

you like music. And you're you've been involved and he said to me I said did the work by the way. He said For me listen to me think of words. Think of Lee's words. Musicians in the evening go to play. I don't go to war. I think that that right there if you're not doing it then get out of music. Yeah I mean you're going to go what you're doing is playing you're having such a good time organizing your thoughts playing in or playing with somebody else that you're not if you guys really bad on your banner somebody then it drives you crazy you know. That says a lot for him to play and to play and you could have. But but the question we show is how can somebody become the very best in the world and then quit. Well that was just I was 34 That was just what I was 34 years old. I was just going to ask you I ask him and here's his answer. He said At 30 i'm always been searching for the

music I heard in my head I would cry and then claim nobody can play like me. I said that's because I hear the music that I want to hear it's not a planet. Like many government players who want to be flat he plays a B flat I don't. I play under the lot or behind it all with a certain sweetness to it and certain lyric quality to the note. And when Goodman said all bullshit I mean you had to be flat you had to be flat and shucks and that's an image of me and you. You're playing the clarinet. I'm playing the music and that is an image of you're him. He's like nobody else. Because he grabs the music he squeezes it and he gets the best out of it. He may i mean i composer I go crazy shop plays music because he's so musical himself he gets the best of the music and puts it out. No composers had that pleasure since 1954. Well because he sent in 1954 I took a band to the embers which is a story we might get into. And and.

I know I said I'm going to play exactly the way I want to play not the way the public wants me to play because they want me to play big in the game frenzy the same way. Yeah because I mean you know I do. I mean I go if you know I want to play I want to hear what he played you know he's playing bop. You were playing progressive musicians with him Tal Farlow was Tommy story or a maze and this guy cut Charlie Parker You know he came up with stuff in rehearsal where we all just said she just want to play like that. And and he he went into the embers and he played like that and nobody wanted it. Everybody was kind of you know like what is that. And slowly he slid in the six weeks back to what he was because he wanted the applause and he wanted you know and of course everybody was crazy about him and it packed ice and everything else but the fact is anyone the progress of Simmons during that time he was during that time when I hit 100 percent. He said I never had 100 percent my life the most I come up was 97 percent of what I wanted. I mean I

was looking for 100 like you're looking for a home run. When I hit that hundred percent and it's in the record it's like oh the water from you know. You know he said you know. He said once I had a hundred. I saw my death or is that me. It means that I can't get any better come through in my life. I would see what I want. I got to the top. The only other way is down. And he and I I had such an ego that I didn't want to hear myself playing less than 0 percent and I knew I could not keep up 100 percent. It's very very very difficult to play on a present. I want I don't want my idea of a clarinet solo. And I said well you know and I don't want to ruffle your feathers but let me tell you everybody was in love with the way you were playing in 1939 or 40 specially in 1940 or just right on the money.

So you know right on the button for you you didn't realize that I was playing 95 percent I went by and I said Yeah but now I'm listening to you playing a hundred percent on this record and you know what. You sound weak when your son almost And she said he said with a great deal of prizes I was playing so light and playing with the holes next to the microphone and the belly playing so light was such such control that you almost couldn't hear the note but I said Well Arnie that to me is that music that you may control. You may be controlling the planet to your satisfaction you may be playing an impossible note nobody complained. But to us we just sit here listening to the music. It sounds like you lost your breath it's not like you you don't have the guts to play like you two. It didn't sound good to me I said you know do you assign a great resume last week when he said you know I couldn't play the way I want to and satisfy the battle against that fire and then I said but you don't even play for yourself. You know that's the next question. You're the best plan a plan or all to play for your own amusement and he said What makes you think I'm black and that blowing into a block of

wood where you have to have your lips just right and your tongue gets right and your fangs just right and your ribs and your lungs are straight and your fingers just right and your mind real sharp. So when you think about it's already it's already here. You think that's fun. It's not it's hard work and it's not good and I know when it's good and then it's not fun and why when I go on to better myself every day trying to make sure that I'm playing on a present. Better to put the instrument down when you're at the top and say OK I did that that was not part of my life let me go on to some house as I said yesterday. But you open a dairy farm. I mean from being on top clarinetist to having it granted to them having their farm is a long drop. Quite a career change yeah. Yeah. Along with I guess he wrote some books and. Dabbled in movies a little bit and so on but you know he you know he didn't know he didn't want he wrote a book yeah. They weren't particularly good at drawing and Cinderella is kind of a good book a room. It's just. It's a 40 year old guy saying

like on my way now that I live my life and I have lived a long and fruitful one all of my friends particularly Jewish professionals and I have that's mainly what I had as friends and doctors and lawyers all women seem to go nuts around about forty five years of age. They divorced their first why they made a fortune but they haven't learned anything about how to live. So now I'm suddenly gonna get tackle that oh what am I doing wrong. You know I've got a wife at all or I had children drive me crazy I got two three million dollars and then they look up at the sky and they say what does it all mean. I mean you have two three million dollars to go and have a good time I give it to me I'll tell you what it means. And and so she did that and then wrote a book about it because based on the psychoanalysis. And it's a book about China guess what. And it's called no trouble central and it was anyway that the Shawn thing I think I'll exercise that demon by putting this book out. How do I still use it to paint I use him to paint all the time. Oh all the time I mean

he is music is timeless. I mean and it's different because in the 30s it was a really hopping loud jazz man I mean but good you know and he would take to do things differently to take operettas like softly as in a morning sunrise. And man it's so good. It is so good I mean. And then as you got money and we got great arrangers like a song he would do he would what I call throw away records because nobody can dance to him. Most But most people are going to listen to me. But any songwriters and it's in the spring summer time is the most beautiful rendition of that song you ever heard in his perfectly arranged and his clarinet is a spectacular clear beautiful melodic. He's just great. How could you do that you know when you're out there buying buying a record for 50 cents you want to dance you want to hear songs you want to hear. And yet he puts on what sounds like a concert. He put on a song called made with a flask of air that he put on which sign unlike the French classics like The BBC isn't right. Then he put it on

call even song. There were I mean there were just gorgeous strikers but who would listen to only somebody like me or somebody that really likes a great clarinet I mean I I don't know why they're going to and here here's a story I hate executive by the way executives in everything radio stations TV saying there are people who have you know dropped from heaven on us in the middle of the night like demons and just screw us but here's a couple of what he calls the suits that hit one of his biggest hits was some red stripe and crushed my grammar suffice for the grammar C5 was his telephone exchange. Grammar sci fi and he had he hit playing the harpsichord he put Dora marbles on the plane and Johnny Warren Arry put it playing the harpsichord had a distinctive sound different from friendly governments and it was very very good. So him millions of sales the suits go and he did one color grab town grapple

rap town is Ava Gardner's hometown. I'm damned tired of going to grab the grab. So anyway the suits call and I said no more Gramsci firings. He said why it's good jazz is great jazz and a plus records plus were selling millions. He said The public is paying 50 cents to hear 18 musicians and you're playing with fire. All right your church shortchanging. Am I nuts or are executives crazy I mean executives the movie business executives and the record business in particular about him. Oh everybody that's what I said too much innocence so far been television. They're nuts. I mean I was in television boxing things they're nuts I mean you had to come encounter sit on him and control or else they would do incredibly stupid things. Movies nuts record business nuts I mean why not you know why not there's no there's no qualification for them. There's no place for them to learn they just come. The one we had that gave me fits and NBC came

from the halls of Congress as a lobbyist. The only distinct criminal class I know that gets away with it in the United States he gets to be president now he's a. President of NBC I mean go think what background did he have to tell me what to do with a boxing show. Yeah me. Forty years in boxing he's arguing with me. Sometime I'd like to talk about boxing. Before we wrap up but I sure had so many different bands before the grammar C5 he'd have a band for a while we break it up. Well the Grammys if I was part of what he had was it wasn't that he wasn't that complicated he addressed why he. Yeah I guess material. Yeah you know approach. He said I get enough money and get sick of the business. I mean it was actually making me sick. And I quit because even then I go into the hospital and go back in as I go there because I couldn't stand to be on the bandstand. People were hollering and so for what he had was the first band from one hundred thirty eight thousand nine hundred forty was a tight 18 piece band. We're

very very good musicians. All of which he trained to play like he played the clarinet. I mean he got them if you heard a eyeglass Robinson came to him you know and now they're all mental I want to thank you for being patient. It took you a year for me to get your sound down out of the alto but once I got it down it was like magnificent. Well. He got so tired of that that he left he left the band and went to Mexico for a year when he came back RCA Records your four records. You better get together we're going to sue you. So he had heard from AC on the beach with the fisherman pulling in nets they were singing from the same so he thought he'd found something original. You orchestrate any put on. Then he had believed but he got together and he just looked around L.A. where there's a million good players and he said OK give me the best players I believe about available fresh trouble. But he was a really good open bell he was about the best one there is

and he's a billionaire. I want you to lead off start us do as many courses as you want. It's and by the way that's one of the best clinic courses of stars you ever heard shots kind of course is always considered a classic. So fun to see that. And dancing in the dark. Each one of them saw him and he had an eat he made four records and each one of them that was the band and he said I've got some money and you know and I knew a band like I want to put strings he's always fooling with strings of sound. So then for that period of time when he then affably but feeling a little jazz he got Roy Eldridge. And you know he got two hot lips page and then they became the nexus of a tremendous band but as he went and he intellectualize You see I don't think jazz music can be intellectualized meaning the more you think the less its wings. You know Stan

can't was a great great one for the more he thought about the less that song was ponderous you know and so. The more Shaw thought about it the more he got into strings and I mean you know as in the dancing in the dark and April in Paris they're so deep and lush and lovely you feel like jumping in you know it's like a velvet cloud and develops you when you listen to those two records. But then he kept going and then the music got to where I said to him you know you your music got to words sound like an elevator music with you playing the clarinet. The only thing good about the whole thing was your clarinet when I mean the rest of it was just plush. And how do you respond. He said well yeah I think that not quite that bad but I you know but I knew I mean if you were looking for something and I want my bangs stop swing you brought up concerto for clarinet. His response seemed to be what a lot of jazz fans and even Artie Shaw fans feel is that it's not that good. It was as most of you know he says he's not that enamored of it himself no no he said when you have to understand with the

history of these things. Concern of a climate we were doing a second course which was a disaster. The movie was a disaster and they were like winning everything was winning even the dialogue knowing and they come to show and says listen you know we want a big banner. They used to call in those days killer diller said we want to big band killer diller in the style of Benny Goodman sing sing sing. You know where's he struck with those sort of a blues and then you go I want a different tenor solo trumpet solo. You know of course when you talk about James when you're talking about things you know Ira John's best solo and you're talking about Goodman's best song here not about a group a breakthrough Tom. So here we were in I don't like to play copies of anyway and these people are insisting that I follow that same pattern. So it wasn't a good musical writer I think. And by the way you know for anybody going out all your records at the beginning you had a murder called the blues and the

blues is that is the beginning of the end he's an exactly. I just took the blues and stuck it into theirs and it wasn't anything that was supposed to be superior or great. I tried to play a really big solo you know which which he does at the end he reaches this tremendously high note and he said and I played that every night where he said drove me crazy people want to know. I mean I want to bad enough to do in front of CNN and begin to mean there are only three minutes but things goes you know gone forever and that was their their final piece. People loved it. But then you know he says well if you didn't know all these other things it was pleasant enough but it wasn't a masterpiece it wasn't like wow this is my big con.. And first of all is that the name it concerto as a joke it was a bunch of pieces of music that I made some or things we didn't know in rehearsal just a full round. He's in that time time and it's not you know he's in the funny thing when musicians I don't know how not you get crazy hitting that last high note.

He says every time. So I don't understand how you do that. He says How you doing. He says that you know when that finger where you get the finger and just the right thing to hit that high and he said I mean I mean it says I'm your musician if you lift your finger over the table half an inch and I tell you. Robin you doing. He says Yeah. And if you can't do that then you can't blow high E you know. If you're thinking about we know that they will be there when I had their you know what I mean you can think about it it's just your finger above the table your fingers above your granite and you hit it and it's going to be there. There's no reason to think the whole is going to move eyes and the air is going through there. And that's how he that's all right. He says if you have to ask then you should be playing right now. You should be doing something else. And because the truth is you have rehearsed so much as he said it was about all musicians there were her so much that unless like a great athlete intuitive you just play it.

I just saw you doing something a minute ago that's funny to me and I said and my friend Henry my clarinet playing friend who turned out to be a big football player who would always drive me crazy he was always doing this. He was always fingering you know his finger I'm doing and fingering my or my hand right hand or left hand he was always fingering the planet as if you were playing a little thing to drive me crazy as entering there's no clarinet around how my hands are and and show is known as a rock. Yeah I said Charlotte you know where your hands he says yeah I can't stop them I have my friend Henry could not do it. And the other day I saw him and he 70 some odd years old I still don't know. So I mean that must be pretty ingrained in your own eyes watching you. What you doing in either one of those guy plays an instrument do you play anything not to speak of and it was and what I did it was a trombone so it doesn't apply I got him out of Alpha. You mentioned in passing some of the great side many had did he talk much about the players I mean there was Jack Johnny of course Buddy Rich and Matthew Kaminski money really yeah you know I'm I'm Polo apart piece by piece on that

he and he gave me great Sony's as Buddy Rich came in at 18 years of age in sin in a record called Artie shot at the Hotel Astor it was my favorite record. Two pieces big because he said that he likes to get sick and I heard but he was at times 18 and just out of the Marines he said don't come over and sit in. And so he comes over. He says what happened to the band that night. You've got to go look at the record. He said I just electrified the band. He said I never I never experienced such a thrill and such exhilaration. So we can go off the air I mean we got to the end the Carioca and I can leave them you know we got to the end and I get one more riff and I got to enter more and more and so they were going crazy trying to get us off the air and we were having so much fun playing that they went off to you while he was still playing. Well he can stop you know for a professional musician like Shaw It was great he said but Buddy Rich was a throbbing pain in the ass and he said he was so

bad. He said he was first of all he's an egomaniac go for it. Then he picks fights with everybody and George all the work who is also playing as we're fighting all the time. I mean punching each other out. You know Frank Sinatra but the mafia want to put him in the hospital. They fought so much with the Tommy Dorsey man. Then he hired two goons from the from the mafia and they beat him up and put him in a hospital. Rich Rich Yeah you went to the hospital where you stay a month or two I mean he was beat up and when he got out and everything I cool and Frank felt very bad about it I got a hotel room I mean back of the hospital and they became close friends after that. If they weren't playing in the same back because Buddy and this gigantic Eagle thought he was a strong man but the story of the man was Frank Sinatra. And at that time it was the first time that a singer ever became a star. I mean especially male singer Shawn said to me when I have a male singer he said you know if Sinatra came to me first and said I want to sing with your band our nieces and I think go or are at the Harry

James I get your gang interrogated by don't come here I don't I want women I'm going to tell you the greatest sin I think any music human being much less musician than as far as crappy behavior let's put it that way. Remember Harry James or Harry James was not a nice guy. He was all right. He was a nice guy. Where he was was seduced her women he loved women love women he was tall he was good looking he played a great trumpet. And he but Helen Farson the man with him. Whoever sang with an eye to go sleep well because on rote road trips were tough you know. So she fall in love. She was a nice. She had songs already shot she had sung with Benny Goodman and she had resisted everybody's invention. She's a nice girl so a nice woman but she fell for him head. Lansing So they're going to get married so they're coming up to Christmas show. James is staying in the band had a break or James stayed in in Los Angeles and did studio work and so they were coming up to Christmas show for

the Christmas show for them for the entire armed forces V disco. I mean that's all over the world and Europe and the Pacific all or and Harry James and his band were number one record in the country you made me love you right. James had made a contract with it though he quit being a jazz musician started playing nanny goat trumpet in order to sell records which he did. He sold 23 million. I mean man is all rich and he never no way or another jazz look at him which is terrible because he was a great jazz musician. You know they somebody sent me a Teddy Wilson record where he can tell you also on a boy that guy could play. Yeah a guy can play but none the less. So they were going to get married. So everybody's waiting. She gets a new dress to go to now sort of 12 Well so here they come up and he comes up to the microphone and says I have a great announcement to make you and the armed forces for the first time you don't hear what she's printing You know I think I was ready to go and get her thing. Sing

a record and he says I was surprise for all of you. Today I'm going to announce I'm going to get married to Betty Grable the many very well she's sitting over there waiting and he's got this great big diamond that he gives she comes walking out going and she's going to sing. Not only does she get shot down and back you know you get to sing your own piece. Our own thing was she promptly went out and got on a ledge in the hotel and took 20 policemen to get off the ticket. The there let's just that's the rottenest thing I've ever seen but it was really bad. That's pretty low. Yeah I mean that's low I mean on her own at some times. Are you talking about heartbreak. That's heartbreaking Yeah. That is not on national television before your entire world. Wow. Well but he got his because he ended up divorcing Betty Grable broke and and playing in bands long after he could play. They went through the millions didn't they. Oh yeah I think I know race horses well you can. There are certain things that you

do unless you're a multimillionaire. Horses as one of his gambling fixation in general gambling and ladies you never stop at least right. He did have a great band though in the 60s the basi in food bases but he seems like they just laid in which Neil wrote for yeah. And he'll have to root for and which Oh here's another interesting thing which I never heard when when the show was through was nervous right now. And he had played the clarinet for two years. He decided to get back and get some money. But he didn't just want to get a band going he wanted to loosen up a little bit and basic came up. So I want to play my man. He said what he said Yeah I'd like for you to play with my band. Loosen up what you want. You know play number and sit down or play all night do whatever you want. The band is yours. Wow isn't that nice. When he lived on base he loved it and you know here's another insight. He tie some of my favorite bands to going and I just I don't know why don't I get better than a forty one.

Ellington band he said You're quite right except for one thing they're always out of tune as Osho you would know that I would and I don't want to buy it. He said they did tune up their instruments. He said these guys were on the road every night. Sometimes he made them play afternoons and nights they didn't have time to tune up their instruments they did. I mean he says they were just so out of tune you want to walk as a man can't you hear your horn is out of tune. He's and he would listen don't come you know you know what I think it was a different I mean I'm not going to understand Harry was wrong. But Buster Cooper told me he recently played 10 years with Duke. He'd been with Hampton been with Goodman and knew what he said was it took him three weeks of being in Duke Ellington's trombone section before he got it that that was the sound of the Ellington band. He thought the same thing these guys are out of tune for a minute. When he came because it was that he was used to being in that Goodman band yeah and it was pretty nice. And Duke's writing minor seconds and I had that you know no other band ever sounded like Duke Ellington's there was no ghost band.

No because it is you know the individual what a live individual thing is it's kind of pathetic in a way as they all stayed together for forty or fifty years. Amazing how a plant how many times can you play in a sentimental mood. Forty and fifty nine years. Well I mean you know but when I asked those guys you know I asked Johnny Hodges and how do you play. He said Hey he said you know what it's up to you to play the Duke the Duke gives you the Duke gives you the instrument here this is for you. This is your song what you do with it. It's up to you. Here's the chords every night it can be different. It's up to you if you're stupid you play the same thing every night. But if you want to challenge on Saturday night you may think of some really great things to play what you're perfect all week long I mean you play with it you never play the same thing you play I mean it's the same chord structure and what you know you play with it you know he was. I think I mean Ellington was the most delicious guy in the world. I mean the guy was a pleasure to know that you have personal OK. Yeah I mean I think I saw him go

back to talk to he was just elegant and I mean he's so suave and so small. But he knew music so much. You know he I mean that's why I liked him so much and that's why he like show. I mean you know good musicians like each other. He like many he has. But but show I had a record I mean when we're talking about talking about the musicians Shawn said this. You're asking me personal you know French and there isn't any. When you're a band leader and if you have a band and you're disciplinary you know which I was I mean I wanted my bad design going on. You cannot be friends or your mentor as you Pam good. You make sure you take care of them. But you don't buddy buddy or you don't go by after hours go hang out with us on you go your way they go you there if you don't include anybody trying not to include the singer again. But when jazz and I believe holiday we had a protector he did but he said that and I talked to Tal Farlow and when he finished the gig at the embers his

last ever concert and the owner came and you got six more weeks if you want their deal was if they play in this five it's exceptionally good progressive musicians and they played modern. They would play for scale but if they went back to playing 1038 stuff then at the play I'm what they've got you know you know what I'm saying and you want to play your stuff from back there in the dark ages you gotta pay me that fame. So he went back to see Shah Shah is drinking coffee in the basement that the last night that he walks into the army I mean the guy just offers another six weeks and I just want to tell you we love to do and I was excited and enjoyed every minute of this. But but we got to go back to what we originally started out to do progressive music if you want to do six weeks of really working on progres amusing or with you and if you want to do the other stuff we can do that show he's in charge then he would look up from the newspaper. He said good bye.

Not another word he said I said to show that you really do that. Sure what was well was to discuss I would go play more. I guess I was through I signed for six weeks I want to stay there any longer. And I don't particularly have any love for the guys that we played together we know each other so that and that was not just the end of that engagement but the end of his playing career that was the end of his playing career. I mean you know goodbye that's it I mean that's cold that's cold and I think that's the way he dispatched a few wives about. Maybe so. So the book you wrote three a three part piece in like I said the only trilingual newspaper we know of everything I have I'm published Hardy novel and they're called the actor which I'm going to end up giving them the rights to for the rest of their life so they can get some money in that little newspaper that those three pieces in the paper the group then that is and that's what that's all about you know coming out in the first one was you know it's already showing the volume and the second one was on.

A dream I had in which Ari shows up in the dream strange dream and the second and the third was going to see him because he saw the short story and he called me says God how did you ever think I fell out of bed laughing when that last line hit me he said How do you think I didn't think I dreamt that I just it's a dream the dream and I'm going to tell you the whole thing but I was in essence was a KGB. I dream short stories KGB I don't know why I came to be a killer who has been the number one killer is now about 80 years old. He's outlived his usefulness and he's going to be killed because he knows too much and he's waiting for he rented out you know. No problem. So two guys come to get them they have a conversation and he tells them first mistake you make if you're talking to me don't talk to me come and shoot me. You know that might talk you out of killing I mean I want to get killed but people might talk you out of it. That's not there and so they search my house make sure there's no weapons here that I do you

know I don't have a weapon here you know. So they do all he shows them how to kill us. So he's and I want to ask you a favor. I want to play a record. And when the clarinet in its highest point shoot me that's already shows me that I am in the other guys as we know anything about clarinet so we don't know anything about jazz music when he's not playing for it he's got this all all 910 former have a big heart and he plays a guy support that's really pretty but I don't say it at the end when the clowning goes down that the done up there and shoot me. I said yeah yeah I'm trying to not sound scratchy to you I says yeah let's go look at the instruments one thousand ten. He said no no no. So we're going to stream it. It's a needle a chance to change your mind and change the needle go that like to hear it. He says yeah sure. So you turn some machine around reaches into roars and not seen pulls out a gun and shoots them both in the ice right between the eyes. Most guys die. Then he turns to the camera which is me the guys the ME and he says isn't that ironic. Artie Shaw only had

one hit out of that tune and I had four hundred eighty seven. That's seen as a last word thing. Shuster Where did you get that last quote I don't know where it came from I don't know where your record came from I don't know why you're in the middle of it but that's where you are so you know it is a funny thing so he read he read the account of the days before you guys met. Yeah that's that's why we met and I got to talk to you but the thing was he knew who I was. Yeah. And that helps I mean it's one thing to running because if you run as a fan his his thing is what do you want from me. For what. Why are you here. I mean what how can I help you. You know Marty show I'm gone already you know I mean that was 20 years ago are you doing here. And it wasn't till you got to his home that you realized he really knew the fight doctor. Yeah or something and yet because he said to you look a lot lighter in person than you know on screen so then I realize this guy's been watching me for 30 years. Yeah. So in effect I'm his already shot you know. I mean he's my already has already had some stories to trade

and yeah because you want to hear all about boxing. So why is it true that you we see Mohammed Ali these days for several years as do I understand correctly you told him to get out a long time before. Let's not get into boxing I mean let's get into the trial again and I don't know about him we go No I think it's such an old thing. I mean you know I've been doing this for many many of us this is like the way this is my friends and my good I mean I don't want to talk about the same thing over and over and over again. He's a good friend of mine he's hurt and he's And but he's a wonderful person let's go on to try to get him because what I'm doing in town right now. Streetcar started 15 years ago we started to do publicity for him and started collecting money for my new paintings and give a percentage of the wing and then a. I would try to think of something that was that you could associate with the trolley and I came you know and a mascot and I came up with the idea we're trying again. Yeah which is a cat that died and many years ago and then they find out he only had eight lives.

So God sends him back to have nine lives and he doesn't want to come and so the only thing God says tomorrow to take to get you back now and he were sitting there and he says a lifetime Pastor Wright on Temple electric street car which everybody in heaven gales of laughter came up. And God says while I'm AFK and St. Peter's as there are no street cars and them but to come up in 1946. So he says what years is down there he says the years two thousand and two he says you know and by the year 2003 I'll put three cars on the streets of Tampa and he can write them give me a lifetime golden pass to write so he's a ghost that's writing a street car but telling the people on the street car what used to be here and what is here now so if he goes by that there was nothing there. But but but but then about now there's aquarium and there's a hockey stadium. You know it's all right the book is one meant to be read as you're writing the streetcar a story of what used to be there including all the

jokes and you know because I write funny songs including all the jokes and stuff. We sometimes see you were on the trolley conductors cattle everywhere and everywhere I go everywhere I mean all over the United States every joy every every program I've done the Today show and everything would probably count and so it was the same a great thrill. It's a great thrill to see that the ride on the drug that the other day and as we speak here is just now coming into fruition. I mean we just rode it Saturday. Saturday we all know and what we've done is created a bunch of little cats which I'm working we're giving you to give two years to the first so many people to call which are truly cants. Oh I guess they're 80 inches and 10 inches. Song from fuzzy wonderful things who look just like the drug that was had on we also have these hats like I wear for children and those are really good. We could put them we couldn't keep. We just put some there and then they left in a minute and then the 2K and the books the trolley

can't alphabet it was meant for a national distribution because it's an alphabet book in which the trolley can't with his own funny style. And so I'm going to read to you the I'm a big fan of your paintings and this is full color. Well these paintings are available. Now I knew I was going to forget them. Thing is that the war I can call it a hole in the wall that the walls but I can't get that in my mind that the wall scene and anyway it's all wash our mall chance got all these everything that's in this book is for sale there anywhere from 10000 to $2000 depending on how big they are. And some up to 10000. I mean the cover of a magazine like this these two and the lot you know when you've got standoffs. But I was just going to this is meant to be forever. I mean this is meant to mean Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse isn't meant to be what you associate when you're in Seattle and you pick up a trolley Can't

you think of our city. All right and you know you got it confident that the street car will. Oh gosh Oh absolutely absolutely. I mean it's and you know there's no doubt about that. Unfortunately everybody is so bizarre in this life that you want immediate success you know get immediate success. But as you pile up. As it becomes known they were going to have to write a sinker. You get from downtown Ebor say where you want to go that's where all the action is to the commie Russian If you want to the courthouse if you want. All up and down the NE is the best OPS you can get often Ebor century war and shop centers and I think it's going to make and it's not that I thought they were going for a price you know I took three guys not US dollars some I mean I mean I want to like just a plain old dollar you know you just hand a dollar in about and change. Yeah but OK so now I'm 25 and offer to whatever it is. But the cars are so perfect perfect imitation and then the one we did the one we were stored

and Angel are on your own. Steve McGee and guys that worked for 10 years without any mention of the paper and are not getting mentioned now by the way because the guy's a come on now all politicians are all being the you know everybody's now that it's born are all claiming parentage. But the guys is that hump that year after year hour after hour aren't getting mentioned which I find is when things are in life but I'm not happy when I'm not happy with that. But nothing in the you know let them go their way. I mean I think. The trolley can't be so much fun. Specially this thing for the. We took this book and gave it to a bunch of teachers and then we gave it to students it was 500 student think like that and they pick which one they like and as an example of the sense of humor that goes everyone has a sense of humor so easy for all of this is their favorite. The children pick this favorite And as I read to you you will when you hear the word you'll know why the Big E is for elephant and elephant is one of the biggest mammals in the world

and elephant has a great memory. And if you pan its trunk and feed him peanuts he'll never forget you. Elements have a short tail but a long memory. If you do something bad to know he'll remember you and the next year when the circus comes to town he will step on you and squish you flat squish is a word you like. They can they can they can say no and of course it's a it's a it's a book to encourage children to speak well. And we've come a great something like F for firemen you know. Look at this story Soledad for a minute you know the story is so but she forgot you know so that you have a lot of wonderful things that inspire and teach children. One of these troubling Cats will sit proudly on my mantle or shelf of the office let me tell you where we were.

Thanks. Let me do it when I thought I would I would never get this by him because I write things and you know you know people say you can't do that these are for children and so forth. Here's what I thought I'd never get in. I thought that access that you know now I'm going to give you written like the letter you and I'm going to give you a test and it won't be easy. Go home and tell your mother She's ubiquitous. If you want to get my wife are you crazy I got and I got to go home and tell your mother She's ubiquitous ubiquitous ask your teacher how to pronounce it and then tell her she's you because you will have to look up the meaning in the dictionary along with your mother and your teacher. But once they have read what you think it is means they will hug and kiss you. So now I got everybody going to dictionary what do you mean all right. You've also just completed. Is this the first novel The one that I didn't want to call renegade like me about 10 years ago. Is it least and then I didn't like her which was the first novel that I really wrote about the war say about the guy that

starts the paperwork around him and they are the real actor and it ran 50 some on issues here and everybody read it and I'm going to make it a book and give it to them. But that's that's just personal not what I'm doing. I think the six book on Heber City that's the more city Mafia story and that's taking what I know about the Mafia which was considerable and putting it into my own plot so nobody gets all upset about who killed who. Oh I know who killed who and putting that in the book. I don't want to shoot should curtail my life that bad. And. But it was very really follow the life of you know gentle easy who got thrown out and put in Italy as a way of getting out of jail. And he took over Mussolini's cabinet by giving them dope my giving morphine and how the Mafia contributed a great deal to winning the war. I mean it saved hundreds of thousands of men and their ways and Sicilian salons because they opened the beaches

they open the minefields they really they really serve a purpose. And so I used that story along with going here how the rags going out Charlie walling on the cricket. I mean it's Temple and it's the way the temple is basically very simply this. The gangs were all controlled by Charlie while he was like the ombudsman for everything but the main gang was a mafia gang who killed the rest I mean they killed the Cubans out of the way and the Jews negotiate their way out and that left him standing there telling us in order to stay they had to control city government and order that and then to run crooked elections which they were masters of doing. I mean I I ran I worked in the election for my father who was a big deal and all these things and I was and I and I got to. Undying contempt for the electoral process. I mean I was going six and sometimes I wore a confederate Morgans son I went to Morgan Street cemetery I got all the names

off them saw horrible. I voted guys that were in the insane asylum. I wanted guys that were dying that day and they were in critical condition. I wanted guys that had died that day. I want you guys are going into surgery we're going to be blotto in this place for the next two or three days. They bought it too I mean I wouldn't everybody. And so there was one time I mean I told the story and I said you may get Imus you know we had a two story house it was a bomb it was two story on the top was a voting poll. And remember the voting booth in those days was a box you know when you put your vote in there and you could see who you voted for you know. So the guy that was the master I mean the electoral master the supervisor had had a wooden leg and we were downstairs he was upstairs and we were for chancing and Mackay was when some of us would come inside three holes would come in from McCain go on to drink you know what it was with his foot. We'd hear three were run there were four chance he wasn't going for votes you know whatever it was we topped up by

one. And so all day long he was going on I said you came only in the old days they had and I apologized. Everybody gets insulted about racial things but we used to have a place called the meat market which is where you went and picked up indigent workers to work. Black workers to work in the fields to pick oranges or to do whatever you wanted to do you need 12 guys you went to a meat market in the morning picked at 12 guys went. I would go a flatbed truck full of whole place up taken by the taken by the electoral place in the morning and pay me $2 which was a lot of money for them as well and they were whatever I told them you know and give me just about then I pick them all up when I got to work. Bring a bag I'm paying $1 50 door again so I made 250 come and go in on election day and they were everybody was very happy. So I got a healthy dislike for a leg the other day I was gonna get really mad at me on some wrong. You mean that tell me an educated man like you knows history and loves

United States and you don't vote. I said well I don't stand there or I did well when I was 8 years old I voted for Hoover against FDR and I voted for him five times. I would have voted more except they had rules in Florida you could avoid if you're under age. More than five times for one candidate the guy like I was Are you serious as it is it sounds like I'm serious I mean so I did it before as a kid I did this pain in her lifetime. The thing that tickles me about Tampa is on their lack of self-awareness is stunning. I did a painting of the the worst electoral battle I ever saw in my life 1935 at the corner of my house on 12th and Columbus drive. They called out the National Guard. They came rolling down to fix bayonets gas mask on set up a machine gun nest at the at the. At the station of the fire station which is where the boy and then their star wore a riot. I remember listening hard enough fight that lasted all day long. They're all splitting hairs guys are walking around believing I mean it was like they had a huge show of posters two by fours crowbars I mean

and the guys with the vans were just standing there you know just in case there was anything wrong and I think it was you who would be eating up there just in case there was anything wrong. And the machine as it was was as a what do you do with a machine gun nest and kill all the words I mean you know what I think I know but I mean it was great for me it was all good. So I painted that. And the city bought it and put it in the city hall and I was an example of the history we were doing that history is so shameful you know that that was like that's the most shameful thing I can paint and yet is seeing and seeing all as an example and the title and you have to be you have to be patient the titles the longest title I've ever had on me here is and you got to listen to the very end like my stories. And it goes to the end. Here's the thing. Temple's longest day. Damn as long as Election Day November 935 the day the governor saw fit to call out the National Guard in order to protect the citizens rights to vote

twice. That's the name of it and they got it they got a written I think. Thinking in city halls it really got right in city hall. Proud moment. This proud moment as do I don't know killed Charlie while you know. And I'm going to stick to my story for the rest of my life you know get that out of me till they're putting me in the air. You know there was Charlie was an interesting character I called Charlie Robles and in my book because I don't want any role from anyway although he didn't lead anywhere but he was an interesting guy. A few times I talked to him because it came in the drug store because I had rush to write down everybody to come my father was very very well-known he was I didn't find this odd till I started to write these books. My my father was a peace maker and Ombudsman when the gangs. They call them the philosopher and I never knew any of this. He's a druggist. The only thing I knew was when he got up in the morning you put a 45 in a bag on his belt and there was no drugs carry a 45. Can't imagine why we didn't have a sort of and I don't know why that would

carry a 45. So I said well he was called a philosopher and they would get him a rival gangs to negotiate a peaceful settlement of some argument they were having you know so that instruct shooting which Charlie wall never wanted. Charlie was and you know while it's expensive prove anything as nasty you know. But Charlie did his share of knocking off when people took a shot at him. You were dead that afternoon. You know you took a shot at somebody and you were dead that night and Charlie was he didn't fool around because his police the police was his gang. You pick up the police will pick up a guy that will shout shout shout while they go to the Morgan Street cemetery there's a way to go through the middle still that little tiny road and its name looks like the guy is trying to escape to reach back and sure I'm right and many more than one. Right. So I felt that the Mafia story had to be told to get the flavor and I think it is not historically accurate. I mean

I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm putting my story on top of what I know how things happen. It's called The Making of the dawn. And it's between two guys one wants to be the done and the other guy doesn't want to be there and the one that doesn't want to be is the one it's going to be him because that's the way it was ordered. So my book is how that one that doesn't want to be there. Slowly slowly. Crime and deceit greed all the bad elements layer onto him until he begins to kill people and he begins to like him and he and he goes from this fat funk that doesn't want to be you know into this guy that's the devil. And at the end he's killed everybody he's killed the two all die and he's killed his wife was killed because he's killed his partner that wanted to be that I don't tell everything no no well you know what you're going to get I mean this is so so good and so layered. But at the end he's by himself in a room. And look at the Marion says now that he has become the Devil because one of the things I looked at

most mostly in this in telling the story is the fact that like everything else we have homogenized the Mafia. I mean there are some brothels warning about tax shelters and they're worrying about whether tax deferred bonds we're talking about some offhand I mean they're living in houses look like they come out of Woman's Wear Daily you know Architectural Digest all of it big houses that driving cars what I'm to the income tax we will come along and say we're to get the money to pay for this like they used to. What happen to the police you know as in the soprano you never see any police ever. Now we got the FBI and the two dopes that letter that are wiring to dogs to guys that are almost they're almost all villains of the piece. I find that we have marginalized the Mafia. And although I have gotten those everybody I knew everybody in the mafia down here and I like them all. But my father always said to me Remember they are the mafia. Let them do you a favor if you do them a favor DOn't YOU DOn't YOU would you do them

any favor they want. Don't whatever you want. My father died in my first year medical school. Santo Trafficante it was a very good friend right because he was he was. A client of ours in a drug store when they didn't have any money and they ran a tab for like two years. They didn't have any money so when they got in you know we were we were OK with Trafficante And so he came up to me in the streets of Miami behind me because the cops FBI was always following him and he read his newspaper he says to me here J.B. that in my file and I was really up against I don't have any money I had a wife and kid and I had to get through medical school that cost a lot of money and no time to make it because you're studying. He said Go to my lawyer and ask for however much you want every week whatever it is you need a hundred fifty a week draw out of your way and you need two hundred point drop if you need 100 drop whatever you need at the end of the four years you know you've signed up for that. No interest no vague no anything. And you pay when you can. He

said you know once you start being a doctor you can pay this off in a year or two. You know he will be making more money and you can imagine and then you'll pay me off that's also to take him up. Hell no. Hello are you crazy a doctor and then into the law you will see more bodies come through in the middle of the night. Tommy died of pneumonia he's got three holes that is just no thank you. Hell no I said no and you know I really appreciate thank you very much. But no. And you know they were very nice I mean they were very. But I but I say in this book what I'm trying to say is No they're not you know they're nice to me but they're killing people and they're running game with me and they're running prostitution and they're running drugs. No they're not they're not nice people. They're not a wonderful guy you want to invite to dinner. Tamar Gandolfini and all these people are playing and they're are becoming heroes in this country heroes. No that's wrong that's wrong they're not heroes they're not heroes and all are outlaws and

they're destroying the fabric of our society. Well I mean and there's a devil the word is now that. They made such a dent in organized crime or at least in the Italian mafia or part of organized crime that it's. The feds would have you believe it's pretty much a non-entity now. Well they engineer their own destruction because they in they they introduce drugs they can't compete with Colombian gangs and Russian gangs and I'll see you in the old days. I mean the picture of God Violet Lee said it sickens me look we have a soldier working for us for a hundred bucks he said loyal as he can be he's going to get his hundred bucks every week you'll do anything you want. The Russians come for the and offer him ten thousand dollars to take a package from here to Queens. Guess what you just lost your soldier. I mean he'll be a courier for these men 5000 of them can't name out of money that's offered to these people just to do things like to take it to

the other side just to do things like stand on a street corner with baggage a car will come by and pick it up you know give you a thousand bucks for that. I mean when you when I you know what I've seen I said yeah. So once you get into drugs you made a deal they'll come back and back and back and in the end you'll die. In the end you'll die you don't fool around with drugs and you don't die either by taking him or you make a mistake somewhere or you get greedy and you decide. My most of this guy and give it to you you get green because so much money. Yeah and somewhere along the line and I've said this on many national shows I don't understand this. Why has the Internal Revenue stopped looking at people who show ungodly sums of money without any visible means of support. If a guy comes into your neighborhood and buys a six million dollar home in Coral Gables. Oh you want to know where he got his money. I hope that gets their attention yeah but it doesn't. We had and we have a place called Bay Point which is just millionaires and people and about 250

homes walled in subdivision from the 40s. I lived there for 30 years or something I built this big house. Nobody lives in it. It's just there but I have great parties at night. You know I keep looking over there and it's all about yachts come in there you know. I said a dark presence and what is this guy doing. He says I know he's weighing the movie I was in there having parties and then they're exchanging And then why don't you book off the narcotics on one day a narcotic sometimes Sure enough. I mean you know they were stashing the whole house was nice to a dog and so they built a several million dollar house to do that in a saloon. I Shouldn't somebody have said excuse me who are you. Yeah and where did you get the money for this. Certainly certainly the IRS wouldn't have any trouble be leveling you and me for anything for any little tiny thing they'll come to your house and drive you crazy. Why. Really Skip crooks you can't you cannot show the expense that they show

or that being in drugs. If a guy shows up and all of a sudden got Level Three broads and so forth you know you know I must tell you this quick little joke at the end you know at the risk of offending somebody and I'm not trying to but it's boxing you know this boxing boxing people are very funny and there was a guy called Johnson one of the funniest guys I ever met in my life. He was like Redd Foxx who just won one he was a wastrel he was a terrible guy but he was I mean he was just funny so when they're at the gym when Allie came in and he came on everybody change their name to a Muslim name. And so this guy called Chip Johnson who looked like our you mean he.