Bob Seymour With; Peter J. Levinson

OK we are we are on many. When just going to air it will probably be after shortly after the first of the year at this point. Within a couple within a couple of weeks before Christmas that would be helpful. Yes there is that for sales and see what you get. Yeah let me look at my schedule. Even if I do an abbreviated version and then an hour special you know that maybe just a five minute version and an hour version and get something on that would be good. Have you been getting a lot of interview spots. We got 27 reviews 26 raves but thats pretty good average. Obviously. We've talked to you about your previous two

struck right from the start with the research that took you into the home and you get a lot of information from how much that person. I think that's absolutely true. I think Tommy Dorsey is. And of course because of the poverty

thank you kind of mother. Relationship with the brother of yours

about 60 some lessons from a young age and throughout their lives. And yet underneath there was there there was a tremendous love and of course the fistfight that occurred in between the two. No one had better get in between then the brothers would go after that. It's our fight and nobody should interfere. And of course there was a great jealousy between then and certainly when they when they split up with the Dorsey Brothers then in 1935 was all about the fact that Tommy ran the band they were leaders. But Jimmy didn't even want to be out in front of the band he stood or sat rather in the saxophone section and Tommy ran the band and was a so strong and authoritative than Jimmy just couldn't be that way as many people said to me essentially Jimmy Dorsey business side man. Tommy was

always a leader. And Jimmy of course would ridicule his brother and be very sarcastic with him and that's what led to that first break up of the Darcy brothers orchestra through the early years. Jimmy seemed always lead the way with that. OK we are we are on many discs. When just going to air it will probably be after shortly after the first of the year at this point. Within a couple within a couple of weeks before Christmas that would be helpful to me. Yeah yeah. There is that for sales and see what you can. Yeah let me look at my schedule is even if I do an abbreviated version and then an hour special you know that they will just do a five minute version and an hour version and get something on that would be good. Have you been getting a lot of interview responses to

it got 27 reviews 26 at raves and one is a put down. Well that's pretty good average. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was nicely done and obviously a lot of work went into it. Looks like we got an OK level. Well we've we've talked to you about your previous two. Of course Mr. James Mr. Riddle Yes and this has really struck right from the start with the research that took you into the Pennsylvania coal country to their home and helped you get a lot of background information and you really right from the outset set the stage at how much that area and their upbringing helped shape the Dorsey Brothers personality. I think that's absolutely true.

I think the whole way Tommy Dorsey's conducted his life the way he handled music and specifically his band was should we say predetermined by the fact that he grew up in those tough mining towns in Pennsylvania specifically Shenandoah and Lansford. And the fact that his father was a very demanding perfectionist and those are the things that he adapted and the way he ran his band with great discipline and S and a sense of perfectionism which he succeeded in doing and of course the motivation was always to make a lot of money because of the poverty grew up with in Pennsylvania. Tommy was a taskmaster. As a bandleader that went right back to his father who absolutely I think you point out required four hours of practice or there was a whipping. And that's it. That's it. The movie The fabulous Dorsey's. A kind of intimated that that had a lot of cliches in it but some good acting

performances. The two actors who portrayed this mother and father but it really got Gabe came across with the idea of what went really went on in that upbringing because music was the only ticket out otherwise the two boys would have gone to coal miners and of course as pop George she said I'll do anything to keep my voice from going to the mines. And the whole idea was if I can is still interested in music and I can develop these boys then they can get out of this town and become something in the way a great musician perhaps otherwise don't wind up a coal mine. The relationship between the two brothers Jimmy was older by a couple of years. You're not 16 months something like that exact. And boy what a volatile relationship from a young young age and throughout their lives. And yet underneath there was there there was a tremendous love and of course the fistfight that occurred often between the two of them. No one had

better get in between because then the brothers would go after them it's our fight and nobody should interfere. And of course there was a great jealousy between them. And certainly when they when they split up with the Dorsey Brothers on the casino Bandstand in 1935 was all about the fact that Tommy ran the band they were co-leaders but Jimmy didn't even want to be out in front of the band he stood or sat rather in the saxophone section and Tommy ran and ran the band and Tommy was a so strong and authoritative and Jimmy just couldn't be that way as many people said to me essentially Jimmy Dorsey was a side man. Tommy was always a leader. And Jimmy of course would ridicule his brother and be very sarcastic with him and that's what led to that first break up of the Dorsey Brothers orchestra. Through the early years Jimmy seemed to always lead the way with the old cat orchestra.

Then Tommy joined in the band the same. Don't forget this grand sirens before that. There's the first three major jobs that Jimmy got there first because frankly Jimmy was a more advanced musician at that time. I think many people don't realize that with Tommy's trombone playing that he also played trumpet a lot especially in the earlier years right. That's right he really admired Armstrong. Oh yes and of course he would pull Ram with a trumpet in that Sony BMG collection there is. Of course I think there's one track with Tommy playing trumpet and it's obvious that he wasn't the accomplished trumpet player that Joe Armstrong was but he emulated that kind of gravelly tone that we had. There's a tune called It's right here for you from right about the time the Dorsey Brothers Band came off that as him teamed up with guitarist Eddie length. Yeah.

Well the Dorsey Brothers Band was hugely prolific throughout from nine hundred twenty eight into the mid 30s. Of course really Bob in the beginning it was really a recording band and then in the end 34 is when Tommy induced him into saying let's really try and make something this by going on the road. And I think you know when you think about it they could have really broken through that that that summer and maybe been the first of the bands instead of Goodman there in August of 35 in Los Angeles they were really the two brothers broke up right about the time the swing era got underway. That's right. I mean this happened over the Memorial Day weekend and then Goodman hit in Los Angeles on the 21st of of August of that year. Regarding Tommy's it was in 1935 after the breakup that he made one of the signature pieces of course I'm getting sentimental over you. And I was struck by the quote from your friend Artie Shaw that you use the

Tommy Dorsey was the first to make the trombone a singing instrument rather than a blasting instrument. Exactly. Yeah that was that a huge hit right from the start. From the time it was made what is it yes. Well actually he had recorded that twice before he had done it once with a vocal with with Bob Crosby on it. But when it was the Dorsey Brothers orchestra and then. Actually a record I'm sorry one time and then that after the really the break up and then Tommy was forced to go back and play an hour a night at the casino to fill that contract. The End Of The Summer of thirty five then the brothers did a Paul Whiteman's radio show rather rob Scuse me cross-piece craft show and Tommy played on that time and then actually did record it very early and get me in in early September of 35

they record it and he didn't like the variation. And then the second version is a common one and of course you hear that kind of like chords by the piano player I've forgotten who was and the piano is a bit out of tune as well and the version of I'm getting sentimental of you which which is very familiar certainly and and probably that and let's dance in Moonlight Serenade with the three most familiar themes up this week here and that really did define that sound. No question. Goodmans bend began the swing era famously and some of the bands in that era concentrated more on jazz in their playing but the Dorsey band always concentrated on a dance and playing well yes except he got kind of caught up in a rut there. After the success of Song of India and Marie and Marie and a few others he began just copying the arrangements of

other dance bands so that it was kind of going into a type of obscurity a kind of bland period and then Tommy Dorsey always the smart leaders looking at the whole big picture saw that America was going swing crazy. Goodman had hit Then Artie Shaw and said that's the direction the music and then he made one of his many smart decisions and brought over a Melvin Oliver over from the Jimmy Lunsford band and changed the whole musical outlook of this band and it became a swing band quasi Jazz Orchestra. But at the same time of course featured the wonderful vocals of Frank Sinatra and the Pied Piper's of course so the sound really did certainly evolve over time yes. Yes with the Rangers that he was drawn to. Right hiring or stealing from other bands. That's right Stealing is an important word with Tommy Dorsey as he's called the Bruno

Hauptmann of the band later because he stole from everybody on a moment's notice. The reference to the Lindbergh kidnapping yes. Yeah I thought that was a great line there. That nickname from other musicians in your song of India and Marie were actually recorded on the very same day in 1937 and song of India it was used as the theme to his NBC radio show radio as the parent was a big part of spreading the word of this new music lesson. No question about it. Radio was really the thing that built those bands. Many agents would say to young bandleader look we've booked into the such and such place and then the band use it but it's not very much money. Yeah but they have a wire and you'll be heard twice or three times a week and during that engagement that too we can gauge mint and you're going to be heard all over the country and that will help us get booking to help publicize the dates we have for you.

Having a wire into that particular dance but they honor whatever was extremely important in building bands. And Song of India brought up a sound the theme song to the first radio program brought up one of the elements that Dorsey used along with some Dixieland sound and covers of other swing songs. The raw number of classical crossover hits this one by Rimsky-Korsakov and leave a strawman and a foreshock second New World Symphony I may be wrong about that but he did right in there after song he did for five of those justices. Marie was a hit and then he tried that same kind of thing with the orchestra yelling back at the singer and before and after and with the sun as a sentimentalist which was the essentially the same as the clambake step in when Sinatra did one of the first records with to the sun with that same device in other words you have a hit record so you use

that same kind of device in the arrangement in subsequent records a lot of band they just did that. Yelling back at the band Yes exactly and of course the title of my book livin in a great big way is kind of a triple entendre. That that title of course there was a fellow named Bill Roman wrote an article in Goldmine and called it livin in a great big way and I acknowledge that and that that the article was kind of a roadmap for me in the history of Dorsett career actually. And then of course in the wonderful record of Marie the band shouts out leaven in a great big way mama. And then there's the great bunny Berrigan solo. And then of course Tommy Dorsey's did live in a great big way. And that's the third reason I titled the book The Way He certainly did tell me a little about the personality we've talked about how he was the take charge brother ran the business affairs.

And in terms of running the band could be a real tyrant. Oh absolutely he fired I mean one of his favorite expressions was Nobody leaves this band I only fire people and there's an incident there when he was trying out on an arrangement on a date of a very complicated arrangement of which the Harry James hit moment. What was that hit. I'm can't think but the moment perhaps a moment. At any rate he tried it out. So we do go and that's what it was and he tried it out and it would say he was missing a lot of high notes and it was a time when he had strings so he probably had about close to 30 35 musicians and various people in the string section the brass and reeds and so forth would laugh at him because he kept trying it and at the end of the tune there were six musicians left on the stand. He told the others to leave the stand immediately

because they were laughing at. The whole sections of the band. That's right. That's it. And of course one time there in Boston he fired the entire band. But that's the way he did things. He demanded a certain level of musicianship and if he didn't get it you went and. And yet he had great charm and very affable and funny and and he really took care of his men. Those ended when the band was starting out and Pennsylvania was going across the Alleghenies in subzero weather and he went out and bought sweaters and mittens and coats and jackets for them because he did take care of his men and of course he could be very generous in picking up tabs. But of course you had to do everything his way on the stand. There was no other person who had a say in things it was entirely the way Tommy Dorsey wanted to do things. And living in a great big way really refers to

the way he lived his life away from the bandstand. He was huge or star then I think we may remember with the mansion he bought in a New Jersey estate and in the mid 30s and yes in Birdsville. Yeah I mean that was a statement you see Bob that were right there. A but that I think in one thousand thirty four or thirty five. And he was saying in that world. Well the country is on its knees in terrible shape but I've earned a huge living I am a millionaire. I have made it as a musician. Look at me now. It will end in the middle of the front room had a block of anthracite. That's right. That was to say this is where I came from. He never forgot that. And of course that when they were through tore through the area they would come and eat it. Dorsey's house with their famous pot pies. Any reader is struck by the quote you have right on page 1 of livin in a great big way from band leader buddy Mauro and later take over the band.

Jackie Gleason and his successes Frank Sinatra and his success as Buddy Rich and his successes put them all together you'll find Tommy Dorsey that says it all. I think that says a lot. Yeah. And yet as you say he could be very generous with musicians in need and very quiet about it too. Yes. He didn't want the publicity. And guess where Frank Sinatra learned all that from Tommy Dorsey and of course I think that's an element that's been missing in the myriad of Sinatra bio's his whole personality really came directly from Tommy Dorsey and his buddy to Franco said the entire personalities of Buddy Rich and Frank Sinatra came right out of Tommy Dorsey and trumpeter buddy Childers said Buddy Rich tried hard to be Tommy Dorsey. He didn't make it but Frank Sinatra came pretty close. What was the relationship like between the young Frank Sinatra

and Dorsey. There was a time when it seems when Dorsey saw the impact Sinatra was having. Oh sure. Well you see he one of the one of the great aspects of Dorsey's leadership was an ability to spot talent in many areas. And he saw that this guy had something and then he said OK now we're going to get Sile over to write arrangements and we got actual startle here to write arrangements to showcase this guy. And then of course we got Matt Dennison and his partner Tom Adair to come to New York to write for his publishing company. Why. Because he knew that they could write great ballads. He published the songs the songs were to showcase Frank Sinatra Conny Haynes and the Pied Pipers at the hit records came. Those people would be in traction with the band and the band would make more money. So he saw what Sinatra had early on but yet they were very much of the same personality. And of course what a Dorsey represented to Frank Sinatra was a very strong.

Driving disciplined man and a man with power. And that's something that Frank Sinatra always wanted in his life of course and evidently he got it with his great success and he admired the Mafia figures because of their power and Dorsey had this strength of character. He was afraid of nobody. And Sinatra admired that so he was not only his musical mentor but he was a person he looked up to when he became his hero and really of course he shaped his personality. Great. To hear. The biggest vocal record I think that they made together was the one where Sinatra and the Pied Piper's sang I'll never smile again. That was the one that really I mean it was the number one record for three months in the United States and even Winston Churchill told Sinatra after the war that this was the song that goes in when facing the Nazi blitz in

the winter of 1940 would go down to the depths of the subways in London and then they would listen to this song so it had a great impact and not only in America but in Great Britain as well. At the same time paired with a singer who remains active and lives here in our area as you know and I'm sure you spoke with her for the book but she lives in Clearwater. Yes right. And to hear as we go along the band Conny Haynes and one of the songs that typified one of the trends of the day was yeah was that ever. Frankly I don't know. Well featured Conny and was reminiscent of the one just before Sinatra had joined with which was one of Dorsey's biggest recordings that first

did was boogie woogie that was you know that when it was Dean Kincaid. Well you're right. As a matter of fact that last chorus when Dorsey plays that wonderful solo I I said to Buddy model that's quite a jazz trombone solo because you know Dorsey knew that he wasn't much of a jazz player and he said well I got to tell you I was with the band when we recorded that. And Kincaid actually wrote out that solo which is kind of interesting. So that was the improvisational was the way it was right now. During the war years actually after the recording ban the first recording that Dorsey made was a style over piece that you describe as the theme for the winning team in World War. Yeah it really was I mean it's so ironic because it was written in the early days of 1940 to one side I was actually I think it was sergeant in the army

around Fort Monmouth and he wrote that and sent it to Dorsey and Dorsey would play it on dates of course you couldn't record it. And then when the recording ban was lifted in November 1944 he recorded that right away. And of course on the other side again another great two sided hit. Sunny Side of the street. Yeah that's what it was and it really is. This woman Phoebe Jacobs is a publicist in New York said it was really the sound of the winner. And at that time American troops under MacArthur had landed in late so that pathway to Japan which ahead of them and then an end in Europe they had crossed the American troops across the Rhine and were into the German countryside and were on their way to Berlin so it really was the sound of the winter. But of course it had been written back in that kind of desperate days of 1942 when it wasn't sure whether we're going

to win this war. Lots of Tommy Dorsey's music. Defined the sound of its air of it maybe no question about that. More than that it was a definitive trombone solo on Opus 1 and also the clarinet solo the great Frank Franco in Panama City and who tells. Told you that he was required to play the same solo every time. Absolutely that's the way Dorsey wanted it. He wanted to satisfy the public he wasn't interested in a clarinet player stretching out and trying it various ways. He wanted it that way and that way. And finally fired him because he didn't get it that way. His buddy would like to try various versions. Dorsey didn't want that. He wanted what the public knew what the public demanded brings to mind one quote from I think it was Max Kaminski in your book who said it was a great sounding band with great section players but not a band for those who really

wanted to play in a jazz way. Well you did it all Dorsey's way right you didn't get to yes when you go out and and play those kind of thunderous trumpet solos and Barragan as well. But essentially it was a format he wanted and nobody was to go left or right. From that one. Despite Benny Goodmans integrated band and small group at the time most of the bands as well as most of society was pretty segregated within forty five doors he brought in Charlie Shavers were extended stay in the trumpet section yet Charlie was there three or four different times and that was it. Again a very volatile relationship. Charlie personally as musicianship but Charlie was often drunk and of course the big problem was he suffered from narcolepsy and nobody knew what narcolepsy was at the time and he would fall asleep right on the bandstand in the way he would have to hit him across the knee with a drum stick to make him who realized

awake He better wake up because right after a drum solo Charlie was about to propose to play his own solo. So that caused a lot of friction between the two. And then Dorsey of course rigged up this thing where in the chair where Charlie was sitting was had an electric current tied to it which Dorsey could press the lever and it would wake up Charlie as well. That was another way to wake him up on the stand. Now that sounds like a scene from a movie years. Yes but it's true. But in terms of racial conflict that they would encounter on tours and so on he always stood up for his guide and. Oh no question about it if you're a member of my band you're a member of my band it's not if you're black white Chinese whatever you are you're a member of my band and nobody's going to disrespect you and of course there's no way Belsen told of an inch of it. Incident in the in the summer in the south I think it was in the North or South Carolina. When these rednecks came along with baseball bats and the sick one up in this Bandstand you get

this trombone right across the chops and then of course the police gang. But that's the way he ran things and there was no double standard about that. You're a member of my band. I don't care what you are. You're you're here to play for me and play for the audience. Nobody's going to disrespect you. The two brothers got back together in 1953 and it was instigated in part by I guess in part by the their mother still around at that time and by Jackie Gleason. Yeah I would say probably equal parts although really. Because Jimmy was really down and out and he couldn't get anywhere with this band he owed the government a lot of money and as a gallbladder removed he had no future and mom Dorsey said Thomas you must help the brother and that was of the order and he had to do it. And of course Gleason went to but the two of them on television which of course very much succeeded and really made that combination really important and then of course out of the stage show

that the show which was about was a half hour an hour versions at different times and CBS in the next three Yeff years. That's where Elvis Presley came from and also people like Bobby Darin and Tony Bennett and Sarah Vaughan got a big boost from being on that show Della Reese was another person. But it was really. Elvis Presley with his six shots with the Dorsey Brothers starting in January knocking 56. That got them a great rating and that's where Elvis Presley got launched into. Very ironic in that Frank Sinatra of course whose whose success when he left Dorsey led to the eventual demise of the big band and the person who they say put the nail on the coffin was Elvis Presley and Tommy Dorsey was in part an important end in at realizing that public was going to have something with both these people and introduced both of ascension and the world thinks it was Ed Sullivan. That's right. Yes.

But then we're no I have no interest in history these days and that's what happens Ed Sullivan didn't feature Tommy Dorsey until August of that year and and Steve Allen at present and once in I believe in June but the Dorsey Brothers on stage presented him six times between January and April of that same year. Thank you Jesus. Let's go back over that one more time. With those dates. Well the reason being you said to feature Tommy Dorsey instead of Elvis Presley. So make your point that the world doesn't know history. Yes I think Bob Weir and great danger actually young people aren't taught history therefore they have no interest in it and I think this is very wrong for a number of a number of areas. We have a have a war in Iraq which we should not be and the elder Bush saw it was a mistake and he didn't go to Baghdad

and the current one has decided and we've got enormous problems there back there in 1956. Most people looking back at that time think that Ed Sullivan discovered Elvis Presley. That's simply not the truth. From January through April of 1956 Elvis Presley made his first six television appearance national basis on the Dorsey Brothers show called Stage Show on CBS that preceded the Jackie Gleason Show then. Steve Allen presented Presley's a guest in a show in June and then Ed Sullivan put him on four times starting in August of 56 and of course the very fact that Ed wouldn't allow his cameramen to shoot Presley from the waist down which caused a big ruckus at the time. And so people think that at Sullivan starred Presley in reality it was Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey on stage many months before that.

Television was pretty segregated in that day too and of course necking Cole the very popular couldn't get on sponsorship for his right that same year I think it was 1956 or was it five. But Dorsey did feature a lot of black performers that sure. I mean Armstrong was in fact there's a wonderful version I heard of I think that's a plenty with Jimmy Tommy and Louis playing together. It's just credible with the Dorsey Brothers orchestra from one of those shows and read Allen did the show and there are other black musicians because Tommy was interested in what was good not what they look like. In general the television exposure certainly helped at that point in his career but in the wake of the Big Ben's things were kind of on the downswing for Tommy Moore. Yes his wife that sued for divorce in there had a very acrimonious relationship and they were of course living in separate parts of the

house and he died in one week after his 50 first birthday and the 26 that November 1956. And then a certain strange way it was almost you could say that it was right that he would die then because that summer of 56 Elvis Presley and this new music of rock and roll really took hold of course they were the rate Ray Charles and of course then Bill Haley the clot. And they and the comets hit in 55 but it was really Elvis Presley who really made rock n roll a huge national phenomenon. And by that time the bands were absolutely finished. So as I say it was almost right that Tommy would die or she died in a very strange circumstance the circumstances are a little murky but in in a brief answer. Would you consider this. You're not the first person to say that. I asked various persons

about that because of course the kind of. The what is that note that he left accusing his is a strange wife and her mother being gold diggers and so forth. But Tommy was always sarcastic and nasty and often in both in what he said to people and what he wrote. So I asked various people and they said Tommy Dorsey never would have just committed suicide on or under any circumstances. So it's a gray area. Yes yes I did. I don't think it's great. I think I mean what it was. The medical examiner I mean it's not my speculation that's the actual police report from the Greenwich Police Department. Twenty six pages and it goes into great detail he died from suffocating as a result of a couple of glasses of red wine Veal Parmesan steak and of course uppers which he took a great deal. And last year so that combination caused him to suffocate. He threw up.

Then it was kind of a gruesome way to die. We hadn't really talked about his intake very much but. The two brothers like most of their generation of jazz musicians were very heavy drinkers. But Tommy also did quite a bit of other drugs before it became the thing to do. Well you see I don't think in like marijuana he didn't really use drugs but what he did do is he used uppers a great deal. Before that he would drink terp and hydrate the cough medicine which kind of a cherry taste and he would drink that often often you know on breaks and it would give him a high because of course he had really been been an alcoholic by the early 30s and then he saw that it was going to ruin his career and then he stayed away from it by a green sash and eventually got to determine hydrate and then later uppers and then he would have periods. He would get off the wagon as well.

In his later years you tell the stories of reunions with Frank Sinatra as well as with Nelson Riddle. Yes that really kind of showed insecurity and in time we did well that that wonderful moment in fact and repeated it from the Nelson Riddle book which of course that's still out that's in paperback now it's called September in the rain. There's that wonderful incident there which Jane Dorsey told me about and I had read another source so I knew it was so where and when Nelson Riddle came to New York to rehearse the Dorsey Brothers orchestra to play behind Frank Sinatra at the Paramount engagement in August of 0 August of 56 again yeah. Tommy was very worried that Sinatra would kind of take over everything of course he was the star the Dorsey Brothers orchestra was backing him. But that he wouldn't he Tommy wouldn't have any say at all. And Bill Miller's not just piano player did explain that he was kind of the secretary he would go

between one. Tommy wants this tell on this or vice versa. And the Dorsey didn't like the fact that the roles were reversed as he said and they broadcast with Sinatra came in and sat in with the Dorsey band a year before in 55. He said there was a time when I told you to sing it buster. Well that was a different time. Now we're here in 1955 56 when Frank Sinatra made the most amazing comeback in the history of show business with the press exception of that of of Al Jolson and Sinatra when that was the major star and Tommy Dorsey was as he said in his own words. And I'm still doing one nighters. So that he didn't like having to work for Sinatra instead of the way it had been back in the early 1940s. Yeah I'm sure the turnaround wasn't easy to take because Frank Sinatra Of course said been there because I was on his way to becoming the major musical figure the

19 well in the 50s in the 60s a far as a a great you know what I'm going to say you know the kind of the class musical artist of the time. Well you certainly think you got the title right. Taking the line from Marie live in the big way. Yes it really was a remarkable life and of course to see that it ended the age of 51 is extraordinary in itself. I think there's an image that many in a generation that came along just after that era have the guy in the wire rimmed glasses and the slicked back hair he has a schoolteacher. Yes. He doesn't look like he was that larger than life and tyrannical figure. Well you see there's more to it than that. And then that his whole thing of having custom tailored clothes and a slight lift on his shoes and in those days is quite thin. And the way he would have the trombone at his

side he was trying to create a visual image from the dance floor where people would look up to him so they he would look because of his thinness and the tailor made clothes and the lips on his shoes a mention would give him an appearance of being taller than than he was in the way he conducted himself he had perfect ramrod posture. He looked like the dream of what an authoritative band leader should look like any act that that way. So that's the image he wanted to project he knew that he kind of looked like as you say a school teacher with wire rimmed glasses. And love the high life as far as Hollywood celebrities and so on we haven't really touched much on this film career but love. The moving in the fast lane. Oh yeah I love that because here he was with this big ego and then of course his second wife was a very seductive MGM starlet named Pat Dane and even love that he loved the attention of a very sexy woman. Being his wife that's you know kind of and it's wise he

is part of the fulfillment of the great American dream. Of course that that that didn't last but about three years. But you know all when you look at the body of work and prolific recording and the huge numbers in terms of not just recordings but his recordings over a hundred and eighty six chart hits. I mean you look at that in 21 years. So that's an average of about 10 hit records a year. That's remarkable. Yes it is. You've written Harry James Nelson Riddle and Tommy Dorsey biographies in just several years. What's next. Well at the moment Bob I'm very much immersed in a book on Feds care which will be it's going to be called panache the artistry of Fred Astaire and it's about the interviews with the musicians singers actors directors or Iago fairs producers so forth who work with this stare and it's about

working with him and the way he achieved the wonderful moments he did in on screen obviously on stage and recordings in television. That's great. Did you have any personal experience in working with. No I just had an incident with him when he called me up even when I have his daughter in the store it didn't cause Bahaullah but she convinced him to do otherwise so she appeared and that's a story called back in 1962 it was called daughters of famous fathers and he just didn't want to include it in that. But she talked him into it as they say was done. I've been in touch with her as recently as a few months ago so she sent me certain things to help me with the book. Well I certainly found this one and lightning and appreciate your taking the time now. Always a pleasure to be with you. Bob Seymour at any time. So you'll be in New York.

Yes actually a put on. It's not a plan with such but on the 13th a month something which is that Friday and then the Thursday as well. So Bob Seymour better come up and say hello and I'll know who it is. We'll do that. All right OK Peter Hall thanks again. OK Bob so you're going to run this and five minutes and then an hour later I will try to get some one on the floor during the shopping season and probably you know turn it into an hour long thing on a Saturday night. But that'll probably have to wait till I have more time sometime in January. Yeah. OK that's great but it'll be fun put together. All right good I think. I'm glad you corrected me on that one place where I got it. OK all right I'll see you in about a month. That sounds great. OK.