Martin Agronsky: Evening Edition; 19

ms linney right now here is march and congress is once again said no to the president's compromise proposal would gradually be controlled oil prices that victory may be short lived federal energy administrator frank zarb says when the present gets home he certain of the dough the six month extension of the present price controls which congress passed the day that means all price controls on oil and august thirty first just exactly how much the presidential action will cost consumers is unclear yet democratic senator henry jackson says if the president does go ahead it would have a

catastrophic effect on the economy so then i don't even edition a discussion of energy policy with franco's army federal energy administrator and james bishop of newsweek magazine as his arm you say you have no doubt whatsoever that president retailers and did you fall in helsinki talk to just about two days ago and now we talk about the events that seem to be shaping up and the congress and not like point out that there was going to be another attempt to delay any real attempt to to face this issue square on and find a solution by the cameras pressing a simple extension which simply says what's put off to another the woods they did and his view was that we just cannot allow the nation to continue to go from one their way to another and not face these very tough decisions and energy

and still move the nation forward for independence so his point out that time that he would not take an extension and you would deal with those two days ago you have no reason no i am the change your mind no i haven't i'm sure he hasn't he feels awfully strongly that that we just cannot allow this mission to continue down the road of increasing oil imports for any number of reasons the consumer being very critical of consumers paying a high price forum for oil now and if we continue to demonstrate our weakness as a nation and to believe the face the situation that interfere other free to increase prices even more moly the man in the past simply my show for position in congress as has been given an energy policy for five or six years wiser they came down to the wire were fully aware of all as signs and and then broke away from here where we're not really good face for them more than anyone in good faith and

you wonder compromise you really thought he had it while we answer all of the real questions that they raised a substantive questions of their race against the first program that we propose targets that really worth a third of the thirty month the control program which gave a thirty month away they knew what the thirty nine mile with that with a number of other changes which were designed to ensure there real such an objection they yeah having had those into their elected not to go along with the president for reasons which i can only calculate is baying are unwilling the face the tough issues and explain to the american people that were there not sacrifice the nation were going to win this battle or perhaps political reasons that of those mountain so well versed though themselves that you'd be funny what political reasons why i'm howard refer you reach your own conclusions very clear however that certain members of the

majority of the not believe that we should bring this to a conclusion at this point with the president exercising his leadership and demonstrating that the station can move in the right direction are you saying there's so many mines a small minded they didn't want the president to have what looked like a political victory look like an exercise of leadership but they were thinking of seventy six novel the price of oil is that what you're saying well i would say that we work so my question why even secure for well because you have these things that i really want to obviously i don't i don't know for sure that that's the case and i need to point out that there was a long line of these follows you know you feel that they turned around to compromise that you fear the head with and what you think they did that well our first point out that some members of the jury didn't hand and stood up of a point and it's piquant they were the compromise good number of democrats voted with president last night and a number of them on the senate side have

helped in a statement said for that solution so agitated to do is the kind of abortion such a gentle way i suppose a different members of oregon for their own individual reasons and it has to be a word matrix of reasons oh look we don't have to double talk that i mean why do you think they like they did this they contend and a lot of people in this country believe that this president as camilla proposition of higher prices for oil as a policy a lot of people resent the fact that we get a higher price of oil because they think that if the oil companies a benefit that now you're the federal energy administrator near you dressed yourself well the president is as committed to that to the truth than going to the american people the truth about our energy future and therein lies the perhaps the

problem there is no way of it that we as a nation can maintain or roll back to maintain low prices are all back existing price low levels without paying a significant price ourselves if we roll back prices or do things which would not allow the producing industry you go out in the outer continental shelf for most of the north slope of alaska or the outcome of a shelf and produced the oil that we need to create american oil and american jobs if we do don't do those things we have to make up the difference with imported oil import oil as has been sold to us to blackmail prices in the last two years and there's every indication that the opec nations will meet again the full service situation and they see this nation not moving firmly in in the direction of independence or the feel freer to increase prices in moore show the president simply not true that disillusionment will lead them in the wrong direction we will have cheaper

prices and at the same time sell those problems simply is not true are you confident the data that the truth is based on their art a memorable estimates in the city about the incentive that's necessary to do the job they've enjoyed from two dollars a barrel to thirteen dollars now is it really possible and half are you confident that you have arrived at the truth dear really know we have the best information that you can possibly have to determine what the incentive the necessary for the companies to do the job there are still some big unknowns that bother you about those numbers jama i really you know in a general way typically we talk about the frontier is the cost of drilling out in the ocean and laying pipeline knowing that delivered the marketplace or across alaska pipeline or were the arctic i do have video knowledge about that part of the equation let's know the old oil is a question for all those should be doubled tripled in place overnight well which of the television the

current world will happen with the current situation is this if if you had an oilfield that was developed prior to nineteen seventy two in virtually all of our oil fields in this nation are karl rove well before that point and it was clear you that there are loads of oil beneath the surfaces which you are striking oil and it required what's called second or tertiary development which means investment more sophisticated equipment to get at that oil or if you were re recorded a deeper well in the same field and that had a recourse that oil would be true so loyal or to control the five dollars and forty five cents so it's absolutely insane for this nation to have their world where we know it's there we know that it can be gotten out with one additional fifty eight and we tackle a bit more than a minute after the

girls and they can do in the next ten years if we allow some moderation with respect to return the industry now having said that the president also proposed a rather strenuous windfall tax program so that we said to congress was that while we take thirty nine months of the controller it gradually with the first year they actually is a price decrease that we ought to use a windfall tax for reform in thirty nine months to ensure that we regulate the amount that we return to the industry at levels that will ensure maximum capacity would not insure that as profit let me quote you some observations that were made voice actors say i'm not a position really to validate that they come from congressman andrew warner and he pointed out this he said the industry has always argued that these unlimited prices and provinces incentives to drill more domestic oil right but he said industry opposes didn't discover

seven dollars to be in an adequate and sentimental after oil prices that eleven dollars in nineteen seventy two he's at the national petroleum council estimates that the average price rise would have for the irish president arrived to three dollars sixty five cents a barrel by nineteen seventy five to stimulate maximum production now now listen we're talking about eleven dollars a barrel not three sixty four and we have another figure that comes into this mix with this is very interesting as new domestic oil prices triple which is what happened domestic production continued to fall and it remains a very fundamental contradiction that vibe are our great of an inch or both sides of the rangers' ron i'm not sure about the exact numbers he obviously got them from some source gourley other night during

testimony a they gave me similar set cinemas which is that it has gotten from a stock broker a mirror and i i challenged those numbers that night and i'm a much are willing to ensure that the more secure about the point is that we have to look at what the replacement cost of war are after years of inflation from those basic points and what it will cost what it will cost of producing industry to go out and develop the soil i contend that reasonable people can come at that number and we are attacked the way everything in excess of that level and each year or take a new calculation based upon one inflation rates are still want to push russia czars throughout do the same and if we do that we can return generally to want your price that we can ensure a sufficient incentive without access profitability we can begin the program to bring on american oil at the same time make sure that the american people or our are guaranteed that no industry

gets a win for now second observation is what's happened to the oil i think so long time develop more we've had more well feet per unit of time until the last year and have them we had in the previous regime appeared in the last ten years it takes a long time to find a film and to develop that for six years to develop and if you want your family and a real payoffs are going to be on the outer continental shelf in mosul last year but this may be an eco simplicity recently asked what what is a simple question is do you trust the oil company's when they give you an estimate of what they need is an incentive to increase their production when they tell you this is what we need and this is a reasonable profit do you accept that you trust them were are much are just as there are laurel entry by saying really overweight with that way here but we go out and your phone numbers and they're using our own

devices to make sure that we were phone numbers and we don't you've demonstrated in the sense that you don't trust because your own agents release the names of four world cup or alleged to overcharge the public by a hundred and sixty five million dollars during his seventy three seventy four oil embargo that indicates it's you looked into it and found that they were telling you through world from our not seo right now our regulatory matter that's under consideration and as you know the oil company teacher are appealing that that accusation on until we resolve those cases part one here's an admission from exile a few lucky they still open and biggest corporations in the world but they paid forty six to forty nine million dollars in italy to corrupt public officials over a nine year period so they could get the citizens of their benefit when i was forty nine million bucks where did it come from

didn't they tack it on that forty nine million of the price are charging american consumers at first word is a company that would do far more narrative drawl i would say that those on those contributions only for the stamp that were really shouldn't use that kind of an event to conclude this cove we need to do the fact is really do i develop our own energy resources or we need to give up to a cartel nations and pay whatever price they want a black male as with and they've shown the capability to do that now if we are cool about this an evenhanded and statesman like and non political that we're going to be in a position to make the writer relationship through what kind of revenues are required fletcher that that does flow into the industry actually mainer way and return to the american people and the president both in january to pick a very simple formula that is a phrase you just use non political that strikes me is

extraordinarily naive to use at least there's a huge just been through you know now to scare with an energy is becoming the krona around this most political issue on the country can you really sit here and tell us that these decisions can be made non politically weak you know it seems to me reached an impasse between two philosophies the president really isn't a price mechanism the congress rejects it do you think we're at a stage now or nothing isn't a benign or jingle after the presidential election chants of the impasse and the break imposes let's remember now sadly that's a that's a possibility of them and i'd met perhaps naive in stations are the hat you say if congress rejects it i would call the principled and i think you'd be complimented on i don't know why you continue to walk away from well are you a phrase you'll walk away from oppressive laws and

the reason was there were less efficient james entered the car which you say rejected that notion philosophically a statement they rejected philosophically that's touched that's nonsense as they had they would've come up with an alternative they would've said to the people are we don't believe in that last piece of orange a problem we have another way to do it and they have to reject what we're saying is i don't want to touch this energy problem right now because it's got some sacrifices that the american people are going to have to experience that i don't have what it takes to go tell about those really afraid of this issue as congress are afraid of the session i think that that's appropriate for a conclusion again no one or so of congress are a number of members are not prepared to say the american people your prices didn't have to watch some of them actually years before that protects you from forty three years frankly when i called you a remarkable statistic

straits of perhaps you're cute you could be terribly wrong about regarding energy as being so important in the consideration the american people tip o'neill the democratic majority leader told that the democratic congressional groups a hired immediately one of these polling operations to examine issues of concern the american people most and they found that concern about energy covered only eight percent of the american people that it was in terms of what they regarded as important only eight percent listed energy is something that significantly concerned and his reading of it was and people are so confused about the significance of that so uncertain as to whether there is really an oil shortage so mistrustful of the prices at their charred want oil companies so dedicated to believe that they're being ripped off why the oil companies that it's

reflected in this in this poll now had you ever heard of that poll really think that that's an actor well on the numbers and that particular poll i haven't seen a hurdle we've had other polls they're showing different results ethicist out for cars or receiving we're concerned an issue no it really concerned but an attitude in favor of this issue we just finished talking about the control but i think your is an awfully interesting point margin for seven months now and i've been told by members and other elected officials are really can vote for this issue i think it's the right thing to do but i can't because the people back home don't understand and forth for many many months of insurgent the ways to get the people back home to better understand the man spent many days on the road to sell my colleagues have it you know i finally come to the conclusion that as a

point when they are within the body politic it which leadership must begin when is unimportant for member to go back home and explain to the people the real facts of this issue how serious the problem is deeper space has gotten involved and foreign oil the last ten years and what's that they could track themselves a once he's done that the american people or most climate there which analysts say let's get the job done so when what isn't up to it and elected officials or others to take on the matter of a ship and about home explain the problem and then expect the reaction with authority nor it worth it to tell the american people that they can have lower prices and at the same time not become a for the captain the opec nations just simply can't be true we better convince them the truth they should pay higher prices the oil companies don't end up with exorbitant profits aren't i don't think there's any conviction on charlie

prepared to do that dr akey controls to more on august thirty first eu and the president proposed in the estimate of the senate finance committee is that that will mean eighteen billion bucks an unexpected papa's to the oil to how well martin the senate finance committee working with us there in view of that designed a windfall tax program that they report out of committee yesterday taking the bulk of that money away and again working with the president's initiative the starters on a program to return that they can kill an individual consumers would get a rebate that would be called an energy conservation re that president as for that last january so while that flow may return to the industry if we accept the senate finance committee's proposal that will be kind of interesting to see if the senate will even take up on the floor this week that's enough of a floor before that the foreign affairs that you would like the world for and i would put it lets it happen well it has a quaint as a successful retailers and you will

have no authority this one or allocate humans you so many times we're heading into the most serious financial they're surely overhead how are you in fact going to take care of the people's needs when as a consequence of your veto it animal foreign to do it when jim obviously we can't be insensitive to two natural gas for a church is getting more more critical each whether congress returns we'd been complaining about the body of work now on the whole much of this problem will do it with the president when he returns from europe we've asked legislation so we will have an idea and natural gas emergency act which we will ask the congress to enact immediately will win the thrust of this finally the president did that we're laying out the facts in his direction and six weeks ago us to develop first a clear rejection of where we sure what parts of the country but how much and what does the government need to do to ease the situation and the harder it will be

the number two of the questions and the distribution of nature get your point about the controlling prices for weeks we proposed an unknown number of democratic members of the senate now are proposing that we do you regulate natural gas interests and interstate natural gas that easily and i expect that when we get to this point i find that so in some states people are actually unemployed because we can get natural gas to them that the congress will finally act but your problem once again as it is as it is an oil you got a bill of demonstrate to enough people that changing prices and produce more supply it may take eight to ten years to do that so again you really and again still probably the price orchard yeah so you and as you understand now are that within a state that that development appears this is so the market and it served our fifty per unit one across state lines in

control of fifty two cents billion so it doesn't cross state lines we have this phony anomaly and not so funny it's so the sad story about love in some states there's been used in almost wasted with respect to non conservation techniques and two states away people being placed at a work because they can't get gasoline across the headlines of a theater that is really rather simple and as i said we're beginning to get them for basic bipartisan support to change it and fifth black or if you still think they played a compliment it i think since you took this job you you worked at a principal with energy in honesty i think you'd be really dry iii give you had a fraud oh but you haven't succeeded over congress hasn't succeeded i suppose you're

frustrate congress' claims it's frustrating to where we all end up is we don't have an energy when we don't know what we're gonna do about well how we learned how how you end up here well it as i look back over what's happened was seven months another is the first is a pro where should be i've i look at where we were last for the nation after the embargo we went back to sleep and then with what the energy prices and the rock and and what's the bigger and bigger and bigger follow us on someone's roof lot of controversy over the election was written a lot of controversy but we're beginning to build a basic understanding for the american people and if we can find a way to put politics aside renowned election on this very urgent issue that we're gonna get to move and what we don't the politics so if we don't we're accurate decisions made on the basis of politics which

are not very constructive in areas such as national energy program frank in the history of this republic where you weren't any election year filled with politics for a song i'm not aware of any issue that has such a big price to pay if we don't what people don't understand and they're beginning to understand that by electing this issue by keeping him and saying we can let ago the longer we don't have to pay a higher price we're actually increasing our imports every single month when we do that then took the violin is now only do that were first and the conclusion and second were doing that day the mideast to the shah's in another is the ability to unilaterally make our richard price increases the richness was that way we really have no choice if we face at this issue of hope for american people elected that you may be hopeful

even trying to sell it for a long time people don't accept it because they don't understand it i think is they dont believe it well i think more than we're willing to do something about them or their elected representatives thank you very much as deserve our memory our friday on the allotments are former fcc commissioner nicholas johnson journalist ben bagdikian i mean television stations this

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