Evening Exchange; #2807; Carl Snowden

We are. A race immigration and housing discrimination. We'll talk about these issues and more with the director of the Office of Civil Rights for the state of Maryland next evening Xchange. Annapolis native Carl Snowden is the first director of the Office of Civil Rights for the state of Maryland

for use his private practice dealt with civil rights issues in the state of Maryland everything from housing discrimination to hate crime. As director of civil rights Carlson will be dealing with issues such as race and the state's growing immigrant population. Welcome to evening X-Day. Thank you very much. When people who are outside of the state of Maryland who happen to be African-American think of Maryland they say isn't that the place with Prince George's County. Isn't that where the most affluent African-Americans live. Why would Maryland need an office of civil rights. African-Americans seem to be making more progress there than anyplace else. How would you respond. It's also the state that George Wallace actually got elected twice in 1972 prior to his attempted assassination. He wanted a Maryland primary in 1964 he won the Maryland primary. Maryland is obviously an interesting state free state but like many states in the nation has had its racial history racial

problems Dred Scott who authored the famous or infamous Dred Scott decision. Roger right. Taney Yeah the Supreme Court justice was from Maryland. In fact we have and I'm happy as a memorial to him. So mountain has a mixed history when it comes to race. Indeed Roger Taney also was a memorial in Frederick Maryland and that was a source of some controversy in Annapolis a compromise was reached whereas on the one hand for those people who objected to his statue being there the compromise was that you could also put a statue of Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall there. But what is your feeling about that if on the one hand he was the author of the Dred Scott decision the decision that was obviously very bad for blacks on the other hand there are people who say it would say we need to keep a statue there so that we can remember things like that. Would you accept. Sort of fall in the category of the latter I'm a big advocate of civil

liberties and I happen to think free speech is great and the more of it the better. Having Roger Taney day does remind us of the history of not just America but the nation as a whole and we need to remember that history. So I'm not one for necessarily taking out the relics of the past and replacing them. I think we need to remember our history and of course Thurgood Marshall will help us to remember our history in a slightly different way. You have been involved in civil rights for much of your adult life in the state of Maryland. Why do you think an Office of Civil rights was needed at this particular time. Probably the Office for Civil Rights and I think Doug Gansler who is the attorney general who Marilyn approached me right after he got elected and said look I want to make sure that we put a renewed emphasis on civil rights. As you know civil rights 30 years ago was on the front burner today to many many acts of discrimination and racism and hate crimes that

occur all over the nation. And I don't necessarily get the attention they deserve. I think what the attorney general wanted to do was to send a signal and the signal was that his office often sort of Attorney General would vigorously enforce the civil rights laws in the state of Maryland. There was an incident at the University of Maryland in which a noose was found hanging in the vicinity of where the Black Student Union and other African-American oriented organizations had their headquarters. Do you consider that a civil rights issue. It would certainly be if in fact what it appears to be is a hate crime. There is some suspicion that those who may have done that was send a signal as you know there's a national demonstration around gentle sex. A group of African-American youth them in Louisiana who have caught the national attention of people in the noose was what created that controversy arose who would argue that this was an effort to perhaps send a

message to African-American students. So on the surface it appears to be a hate crime. And does that mean that your office can therefore have a role in that. And if so what would that role be. The way it works is that individuals have to file the formal complaint alleging that there is a hate crime if indeed that occurs we would obviously look into it work with the Maryland State Police and others to determine who may have been responsible. And then where appropriate prosecute those who've been involved. That's fine. Sometime talking about the man who now occupies this office was the first to occupy this office who was apparently on an FBI watch list when he was 16 years old. What could get you out of you know watch list at the age of 16. Actually I was very very involved in the civil rights movement anti-war movement. I was greatly influenced by Dr. King and Malcolm X at a very very early age and I recall at the tender age of 16 being involved in demonstrations against the war in Vietnam and also having a sense that

there was a need to empower the community in which I live in Patrick and Americans in that community. And so I was expelled from high school when I was in the 10th grade for leading a demonstration and subsequently went to a private school where I graduated from. But why at this private school a key school I continued to be very active in my community and that activism dealt with racism and dealt with anti-war activities which apparently caught the attention of the FBI at a program at the time called core Intel Pro which stands for counterintelligence program. It was a program designed to keep under surveillance dissidents who were involved in anti-war activities etc. and. Unfortunately I was caught up in that. So from the age of 16 to 24 the FBI had maintained a fall which we subsequently discovered and for eight years you were on the FBI watch this and monitoring it right.

And were you aware of that at the time. No in fact I credit Ralph Nader who in 1977 gave a speech and one of the universities I attended talked about something called a Freedom of Information Act and at the time he had indicated that if you were active Most likely you were on the FBI surveillance. So almost as a lock I wrote a letter to the FBI define it without FBI and got a curious response the response was Yes we have enough but we are unable to give it to you and a friend of mine who is now an attorney or was an attorney had just graduated from law school took the case. It's his first case and we successfully sued the FBI and won and got asset access to SS to the FBI as well. So I got to see what was in the fall. And one of the things that was chilling and striking was that one of the informants that the FBI spoke to at the time was my mother. Yeah I did notice she never revealed to me that they actually thought she was protecting

it. Well she was a patriot and they told me don't say anything if she thought you couldn't say anything. So when I approached her my mom was still alive by the way she's 90 years old and it was an interesting period of time in which we lived during that period of time some incredible things happen and that's the kind of conduct the FBI was involved and the judge a federal judge Frank Kaufmann actually found that the FBI they illegally spied on me or did they expunge the record and pay $10000 in damages. Well even though the record has been this month but I must say that if I could beg for one second that your mother considering herself a patriot at that time felt that look on the one hand I want to protect my son on the other hand if an official of my country tells me that the sandy thing about it I can't write. And to me that's quite impressive because you're one of the things you I've learned I've done a lot of reading a lot of history the period we lived in a there was a very interesting period and you know

documents have come up. Now the Thurgood Marshall regularly gave information on other civil rights leaders to the FBI. People had different reasons for giving information at that time. So it didn't surprise me how extensive the cointel program was and how many people's lives were adversely affected. It also gave me a great appreciation for what government could do in the negative and what it could do in a positive and it's one of the reasons why I got Bob McTeer your politics and ran for public office and got elected because I'll get to all of that a second but the towering irony now is of course that both as an alderman in Annapolis and now in this position you are now a part of that very Absolutely and therefore serve as a sort of check and balance because I know how extreme elements in the government was 30 years ago and what that led to. And so part of my role I think is to not only be a civil rights advocate but also to

advocate who the protection of our civil liberties. Well explain this to me. If indeed the FBI record has been expunged I'll come visit. I know that at some point in that record it revealed that you took a certain young lady to a certain park someplace tell us about that. Well one of things I discovered a long time ago was that. If you have nothing to hide you should have nothing to hide. In one of the things that the FBI did I tell you at the age of 16 they literally followed me to what was called Lover's Lane It was a place called Jonas green and they documented the fact that I went into this park with the they called a negro juvenile female and after some heavy petting that lasted all of three minutes to report it they left. I revealed that it is part of why we got the FBI record I actually gave that to the press because I wanted the press to see what this government had

and how extreme it was in terms of going after people who were dissidents and I think it was embarrassing for me obviously in terms of them if I could just see your friends like three minutes ago. When we were in there what happened. OK. But it also I think reveal to the public just how extreme and how dangerous the FBI got because when you started to thinking of having surveillance of a kid at 16 I think it was scamming this and I think many people reacted to that kind of kind of surveillance on the FBI and it really hurt you know and I think it's one of the things that made Judge Kaufman to roundly criticized if it was just it was beyond crossing a line. But it seems to me that your consciousness started really early against your innocence was shattered when you were the son of a butcher on a domestic and at around the age of six. You remember an incident involving a sharecropper who was a friend

of your father. Yes. When I was growing up I grew up in a ror area called Davis and Bill Maryland and out of friending Tommy we were inseparable. Tommy and I great friends and Tommy's father was a sharecropper and at the age of six I didn't know what a sharecropper words but I recall how Tommy's father was such an incredibly strong man. I remember even fondly mammie his biceps. He just I used to see him put on. Plow on his back and plow up the fields and take a calf and lifted up. He was extremely strong individual and he was a man who didn't save very much his name was Mr. Marshall and when he spoke you listened he was you know at this commanding presence. Tommy loved his father's soul and just respect and revere them. In fact Tommy once told me his father was stronger than my father and that his father could beat Superman and if anyone could be

superman I thought it was commies father. One day while we were playing in the field the man who taught me father worked for left his home going toward Tommy's father's home and Tom and I both knew something was wrong just didn't know what it was five or six years of age at the time. So we re and toward Tommy's house and hid in some bushes in dismay and went into Tommy's father's house went to his house knocked on the door. Tommy's mother Elsie pushed her in. There was a loud noise out of the house came this man followed by Tommy's father was half dressed and the man told Tommy's father that I make it if you don't come to work. I want you off of my land by six o'clock today. Tommy's father went the protests and the mayor and shot Tommy's father who lost his balance. Carter's father falls down and the man who was chewing tobacco spit in Tommy's father's face for

me knowing the power Tommy's father. I thought I was about the witness and I knew this man who just did this to Tommy's father would be injured. But Tommy's father something altogether different something I have never forgotten. Instead of Tommy's father getting up and striking his main homies father got up very slowly with the spit literally in its face and says boss I'm so sorry. Please don't harm me. Let me go to work and the man said some of the crew tomorrow spun around and walked away. What is Tommy's father was getting up. Tommy's father looked toward where Tommy and I were hiding and Tommy was crying. If you sleep as was I. And Mr. Marshall this man to Tommy had such great respect for didn't say a word and slowly got out went into the house. Tommy went running somewhere. I went home to my mom and Tommy never again ever told me his father was stronger than my father. Tommy's father never walked with the same

kind of dignity that he once walked with. Something happened to Tommy's father on that occasion. It was more than being embarrassed in front of his son and his son's best friend being it was more than being humiliated and emasculated front of his wife. It was racism and his roars just destroying the love between a father and a son. I remember that early saying never many would do that to me. Obviously something happened to you to call you on that because you know that I was much older than them. Growing up in another country in Guyana and there was a guy who used to have a pushcart who went by my house every morning with a pushcart empty and several times during the course of the day. He would go back by the House and the pushcart would be loaded down with all kinds of things and he had the same kind of rippling muscles that you describe. And I admired him so much that I turned to my mother that that guy must make a lot of money doesn't. And my mother looked at me and smiled. The Son

The harder you work the less money you make. And so. For me that was a moment of understanding also. But you mentioned the racial epithet the epithet nigger that Tommy's boss used her at him. And now of course there's a movement going on to bring an end to the use of that word. There was a report where comedian Eddie Griffin was speaking to the Black Enterprise magazine affair and the and he was using that word. And the founder of Black and the bites pulled his microphone. What do you think about that and the whole movement and the use of it. Actually I happen to favor people voluntarily not using the word I think it's a word and it's a word designed to hurt. I've talked to people who have been on the hip hop scene who argue that they can actually redefine the word and make it mean something else and don't have the history that the word is long hip. I don't buy into that argument. I'm also

one who believes in civil liberties and free speech and I think the dialogue that we having on it this question is very important as you know in the way she earlier this year symbolically bird the word. Well it has risen. Quickly go into any inner city anywhere in America where it is still being used and in part as Malcolm X once said about why he wants to be continue to be called Malcolm X he said until the conditions change that which produced me I will always be Malcolm X in many ways until we are able to change the conditions to create it. This word would use that words will be around for some time. It is a powerful word. It's the only word in political bucks accom of America comes with a whole history. I don't think you can redefine the word. I think the word has a meaning it's a purpose. It speaks volumes about our history in this country. Literally it's beyond just describing people in a denigrating way what

it literally means is three fifths of a man uses when the constitution was founded. That clause was put in it by a black man or black people as three fifths of a man. Ultimately that's what the word nigger means less than human. And you feel that until we achieve a higher level of equality in America until there was no such thing at say a black underclass that that word will and it has for more than 400 years. And I. I think quite candidly like we said earlier but the statue of Roger Taney for us to pretend it doesn't exist serves us no useful purpose. The reality is it is part of our history and so we're struggling with and when we are truly free we may be free up enough to be able to discard the word. You mentioned earlier Malcolm X. what effect the reading the autobiography of Malcolm X have on you. It's an incredible I mean I credit the autobiography of Malcolm X with literally changing my life. I was probably a C student proud to read an autobiography of Malcolm X

and I remember being forced to read the Autobiography of Malcolm X is not some volunteer an English teacher had wanted me to read two chapters of the book and be prepared to give an oral report the next day and literally what I was going to do is read the jacket and fake it and I read the book in one setting. It had an incredible impact on me. After reading the book my whole view of the world changed literally changed. The book raises such provocative questions for me. I had never thought of for example what color Jesus might have been just never dawned on me I just assumed that he was a color. Yes and it never dawned on me and then MALCOLM GRAY so many provocative questions in my mind I just at that point anything I could read on history and force you to think and a lot of ways you serve several terms as an alderman in Annapolis and even ran for mayor What made you decide not to stay in politics

writing three terms I had served three terms on the city council. I learned the process very well in terms of running for public office. I ran for mayor and it was a wonderful experience. I came within one hundred fifty five votes of something you never forget. Becoming mayor and hand in running and having that experience I realized that electorial politics has its limits. There are things that it can do and it's things that came out and there are many ways to serve. And I thought I after losing the mayoral race I got appointed to be in the cabinet of a county executive Janet Owens in and around the county and I looked at other ways to be of service. I didn't like to wear you politics and of course you found another way of being of service right now as the director of the Office of Civil Rights. What do you see as your priorities in that job. I think primarily the responsibility I have is a look at the systemic causes of racism and to look at ways of operating

solutions to addressing problems that continue to persist and now state and society. You know Malcolm X once said that the study of history is the most rewarding of all and in my conversations off the air with you you have proven to be a diligent student of history. Is that one of the things Malcolm X inspired you to do. Yeah in fact one of the things you know Malcolm had this uncanny ability to get people to think for themselves. He once said the gradients in most lethal weapon person hands is to my mind is a lethal weapon abs. When you have the ability to be able to analyze for you know so and to look at a given situation and change the paradigm the way one thinks and one looks at something changes you tremendously. I was inspired by Malcolm In fact I credit Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. quite candidly for help me have a better understanding of what the world lives in RRAP fit into that world and how to bring about social change. One of my own mentors the historian

Walter Rodney's and we have talk about the present s history. That's right and as you look at the long sweep of history in the state of Maryland you now have a large and growing Latino population in Maryland that obviously must now come under the umbrella of civil rights an umbrella that was arguably opened by the African-American population and among us among the African-American population there are those who resent that umbrella being expanded to include others. How do you feel about it. Well first of all I often tell people I love reading to people who say well I'm from Jamaica I'm from trying to date and I said Really. When that an album that you were dropped off we all of African descent and even the Latino community when we know our history we have a relationship with our team of brothers. The fact of the matter there's what 40 million Latinos in America and it's growing by leaps and bounds. It seems to me it just makes sense for

us to not see ourselves as competing but complementing each other with people of color. We have more in common than we have in differences and I think it's an opportunity for us to form the kind of correlations that I think will be needed in the years to come to bring about the social change that will lift both communities up the Latino community and the African-American community. Ironically many of the problems that we hear in this nation continue to have the Latino community is experiencing for the first time. When you see some of the kinds of problems they're having in employment and housing is very similar to the kind of problems we once faced. And so I think as advocates for civil rights for everyone. We have a responsibility to protect them. And you know that's why the concept of the present as history appeals to me so much because for you as a student of history yourself to now become the first director of the first office of civil rights in the state of Maryland you are now having the opportunity to write

that history in a slightly different environment to the history that you have studied all along. Do you see that as you and as a unique opportunity. I do in fact. I like the way you phrase that code you're going to sort through history as to present it's ongoing it's not something that stops at one point it continues. And once one understands I think where they fit in. I mean I I'm just so fortunate to be able to. Really benefit from the work so many people came along and who made credible contributions in part to I think inspiring our youth today is a get them to understand they're part of a magnificent group of human beings. Tom Brokaw once said The Greatest Generation was old report World War 2. I beg to differ with anyone who understood the history of the civil rights movement. You will find a greater sense of courage then with that community when you look at what these

people went through during that period of time incredible and courageous. The more we know about that history the better we as a people will be at understand what they bequeath to us and what is always sponsibility because we would still call it snowed. Thank you very much for joining the fray that's all the time we have and they once again caught Snowden It was a pleasure talking with you. And of course our viewers thanks to you for watching. Stay well. Goodnight. Ears.