Evening Exchange; Review of Africa 1996; Mary Anigbo

A review of the year's events in Africa and an update on the Marcus Garvey charter school with its principal and her attorney next. An evening exchange. Oh. We want to talk in Africa some third world

country. Story talking. And attributing that lack of investment in the long haul over the last decade or so when other quote unquote third world countries have been receiving that kind of investment and seeing an increase as a result in employment and an increase in their per capita income. It is said that this investment is not taking place in Africa for several reasons. One of the reasons. Lack of adequate infrastructure roads telephones electricity water just not being developed in African countries. A second reason political instability in many of these countries and the prevalence of dictatorships in many other countries. A third reason given education that while the labor power that is inexpensive exist in these countries the educational systems

of these countries have not been crafted to do well of the kind of skilled educated workforce that major industries may or may not need. What is your feeling about the entire issue. Well my background in my interest as both a lay person and as someone who has worked in several developing countries mainly here in the western hemisphere. I have not worked in Africa and I think the tape probably knows more. In terms of the on ground situations with the international lending institutions that operate food. Third world countries in the western hemisphere are the same as a National Monetary Fund the World Bank and the like. I think that there's a problem in part of cultures of international organisations and that Africa is just not seen as having the same potential perhaps or persons who are expected to work on Africa who do not have the same ties and perspective toward Africa as say they may

have toward countries in Asia that they refer to as tigers. That are very looked upon more optimistically. But I believe Africa is definitely the continent for the 21st century in terms of development of all did there was a significant exception made in the case of Africa that is South Africa because South Africa apparently already has the kind of infrastructure that lending agencies and potential private investors are looking at. And you're saying that your. Thinking that in the 21st century the rest of Africa might enter the picture. Why in your opinion has Africa been so slow in entering the picture. Does the word race spring into your mind at all. Well I think there is a kind of discrimination that some some of us would I guess call it out and out racism but it's also a cultural discrimination. And again a lack of affinity with African people in African cultures which shows itself not just in the

African context but also when you're talking about trade relationships between say North America the Caribbean or parts of countries in Latin America and Central America which are predominantly or largely black which also left out because people perceive them as being so different that they don't quote unquote understand them. And they don't feel like they have anything in common. One of the remedies put forward for this cultural gap if you will was the United Nations deciding the different regions of the world should have representatives who occupied the seat of secretary general from time to time when Boutros Boutros-Ghali ascended to that position. He was seen as somebody who would represent the interests of Africa and therefore international attention from the most powerful or the best the most well-heeled countries if you will would then begin to focus on Africa. However there were crises to be resolved and then Boutros Boutros-Ghali is a potential second term became a kind of crisis in that so

and now we have Kofi Annan of Ghana who technically is from sub-Saharan black Africa and therefore presumably in a better position to look at the problems in those countries. Is this significant at all. Well I think it's significant in a number of ways the first I think is that it clearly demonstrated the workings of the United Nations and in particular the Security Council. If people remember it was because of the U.S. Congress and domestic politics. That the Clinton administration basically tanked the second term basically just the home of the lead which was about exactly. And that was based on perceptions. Wherever Mr. Holmes got them from that the United Nations was trying to rely on us for military personnel that take part in peacekeeping or intervention forces which is not the case and based in some people's view that Mr. Helms who was of course the chair of the Foreign Relations Committee got some of his perspective from particularly

conservative or right wing elements of this country who are conspiracy theory problem and saying that the United Nations itself may have been considering an invasion of the United States and so Boutros Boutros-Ghali became a nothing and exactly and I think the other thing that made the critical difference was that Boutros-Ghali himself did not emerge or he did not display the skills that made him such an effective insider at the U.N. in terms of selling himself and the organization to the American public. Although one can argue that he may never have been able to succeed Kofi Annan comes in now as the unofficial candidate of the United of the United States. He has a little honeymoon period here. You've been invited by Senator Helms into the house and also with President Clinton. If he can get the U.S. to free up the. Huge amount of money that it does owe the the organization. He might be able to turn things around. And so I think that in that sense his nomination has sort of you know it was basically a coup.

And you see you saw the contest between the United States and France and eventually having France backed down in terms of his ability to get the more attention paid to African countries. I don't think it's going to have any effect in terms of that private investment which is what The Washington Post article was referring to. That is basically going to have to be done by the African governments themselves and also by communities here in the United States convincing people that for every quarter of quote disaster there are regions in the continent which are producing where you're getting companies that are productive and where there is movement forward and progress. And it's also of course going to have to come from the actual changes in Africa itself. You know one of the things you mentioned was corruption. Corruption has a very detrimental effect on investment. If people have to pay huge bribes to get their phone lines hooked up and then have the phone lines cut off a month later and then pay them again. No one is going to want to invest and that's what it's going to take you need to.

You need money to make money and Africa needs and that's several questions spring to mind when you raise that issue that is. Yes there is corruption particularly in certain countries but aren't we stereotyping the continent in a way by suggesting that wherever there are infrastructural problems these problems probably result from corruption someplace when in fact infrastructural items are big ticket items for a country to have its its its especially its rural areas properly irrigated. They have roads built to have telephone systems put in place requires the kind of capital that those countries do not currently have and depend on international lending agencies many of which come under the dominance of not direct control of the United States. To what extent are those agencies both you and Marion responsible for helping those countries to get the kind of infrastructure development they need in order to attract private investment because frankly the private investment is not coming without the kind of development.

When you when you mention that it makes me think about Haiti which is it has the same problems in terms of economic development perhaps on a smaller scale. I don't have those answers but I agree 100 percent that infrastructure in particular I mean without roads and access to electricity and so forth. There's no opportunity for development. However I think it's an excellent opportunity for black Americans people of African descent here in the United States and Canada to get in on the ground floor look at Africa Sub-Saharan Africa as well as the Caribbean and certain parts of Latin America. The way that many Americans are looking at eastern Europe right now and these are societies in Eastern Europe that aren't producing dividends yet but they're making an investment for the future for the next 10 to 30 years. And I also like to come back to your discussion of risk Ali because not all of the criticism came from right wing conservatives

and in particular now Secretary of State designate Madeleine Albright. Who saw Mr Ghali Boutros-Ghali perform close up in her role as U.S. ambassador to the UN. I would like to say that on women's issues some of us have been very concerned and UN sponsored the Beijing conference in 1995 and now it's time to produce and that the UN has some serious cleaning up to do in terms of reform not only on women's issues but but that is part of it. And so you assemble the Boutros-Ghali was vulnerable on women's issues when he came in for criticism from women's groups. We need to see him especially now that we have Mr. are not at the top. We need to see a message clearly from the UN from the very top. And I was discussing this with to take to know what is expected of persons who represent the United Nations and other similar international organizations there has to be reform. And I think United States should pay its dues indeed Boutros-Ghali was

criticized for not bringing reform quickly enough. Kofi Annan however comes out of the same you and bureaucracy that Mr. Boutros-Ghali came out of would lead you to believe that there's likely to be greater reform certainly in terms of seeing women more effectively represented in U.N. issues than there was before. Well I don't know he's the youngest man in the human breast yet. Well we've got to have hope we've got to have optimism and I think the U.N. is an agency that we need globally for the next century and millennium. Mr Anon has an opportunity to prove himself and to sort of turn a corner in the perception of the UN in many quarters. We will see what his challenge is getting back to the issue of corruption which you mentioned earlier. GA to you who I think might have been with you the last time you were on the show he's a scholar at the American University has made the argument in that same article an investment that the issue of dictatorship and corruption are indeed significant

deterrents to investors investing in Africa and conceivably if in particular countries you can't get your telephone hooked up without bing bing one or 10 people. Then are we putting the cart before the horse must there be an internal cleansing if you will of corruption and dictatorship before we can expect reasonably private investment to come pouring into this country. Well I think speaking not as a private investor. I can't wait you can't wait for that kind of cleansing I think private investment itself can be a positive force for that kind of reform. Because the the the analogy is very simple. If you are the dictator of a governments and I do not have guarantees legal guarantees that will protect my investments in your country. I do not know what what is going to happen when you get angry with me. So I would basically what I limit my investment to is quick trade I'll make my cash and

take it out and I won't leave anything that you can seize or you can take away. That is why investment in Africa has been so stop level topsoil. You know at surface level it has not penetrated in to sort of the big ticket items that you mentioned schools infrastructure roads that sort of thing because you dont have any protections. George Ayittey is right. If those don't happen there is no need or there's going to be very little force in. An African government saying we need your investment we have natural resources come and help us and we'll both make money and and that's I think a key thing that's got to happen and of course that's that's immediately linked with human rights and governance. OK we're going to discuss specific countries in both the Western Hemisphere and in Africa in a moment but one I guess a more general question but pin pointed at South Africa and that is is that why we are seeing so much investment in South Africa not only because it has traditionally had had was highly industrially developed and therefore has the infrastructure. We're

just seeing a level of medical stability and you're seeing a level of democracy heretofore unseen in South Africa and that could conceivably one be one of the reasons why it's. Yes definitely and the very fact that you have a judicial system that can protect and challenge and has challenged government effectively means that you know you don't have to go to sleep wondering whether the next morning your factories are going to have been seized by Minister so-and-so. OK let's talk about the judicial system in terms of what is more your area of specialty and that is human rights. We have a situation in Rwanda where a significant number. Maybe most of the refugees from Rwanda who are in Zaire and other countries have returned to Rwanda. But we also have a situation in which several of these several thousand presumably of these refugees are Hutus who were accused of genocide in the 1994 incident and who have to stand trial. But we have a judicial system in Rwanda that is clearly hampered by lack of resources. What happens next.

Well this is it's going to be a mess and unfortunately if one is that one is a pessimist one sees the cycle of violence continuing because the the majority of the Hutu population will understandably start to think that they're being tried by an unfair system and that people are being victimized and that you know the only way they're going to get there and their own justice is by resorting to arms again. And so unless the international community can persuade or encourage their want in government to make use of offers of judicial assistance of lawyers for exam. The temp and such offer that there have been offers in the past but I decided to turn it down. I got the impression that the judicial system was strapped financially and that they simply couldn't expand. No there there were and there was offers of assistance. I don't know but very early on those were turned down because they were one the government wanted the process to be controlled by Rwandan judges by one of the prosecutors and defense attorneys I think that issue has got to be opened up again because if you're going to have people who are

being accused and charged and then convicted within a matter of days as it's happened with these first two cases it immediately is going to set in in the US about this forced two cases. These were two people who I think were accused of being involved in the genocide and they were charged I think just after Christmas and they were convicted yesterday. And they would have 15 days to sentence to appeal the death sentence. That's very very quick movement and the of course they're 85 to 90000 people in Rwanda in jails but that doesn't mean that you have to throw away the justice system in order to just try them and start a factory of convictions that's going to have to change if there's going to be a real sense that justice has been done. I don't acquiesce with Amnesty International we are also joined by Marion Douglas who is an international affairs consultant we have to take a short break when we come back they will be discussing specific situations in specific countries. Stay with us. Welcome back we're talking about a review of the year's events in Africa and in third world countries or

or third world countries particularly in the western hemisphere with Bill to who is with Amnesty International and international affairs consultant Marion Douglas. Let's continue talking about Rwanda for a while here because you cannot think of Rwanda or without thinking of the world loomed both of which helped. Hutu majority populations both of which have two governments and it is said that you can't really resolve the problem without resolving the problem right away. That is correct you can't and in fact I would also add to that the whole of Central Africa is basically still bubbling people under the misconception that because hundreds of thousands of people were forcibly returned back to Rwanda the problem have been solved. It hasn't the years continuing to have an incursion by a rebel group who originally came from the one who are now effectively carving off a section of Zaire for themselves. In response to persecution and disenfranchisement

from the Syrian government. And this has happened despite the return of President Mahmoud Saikal from France where he was recuperating from surgery to Zaire. The rebels are making greater and greater incursion exactly they actually seized his private goldmine today. Now. At the same time you have a Tutsi dominated military which is fighting against the militias that are controlled by the Hutus. Who have not reconciled and if you remember in August September was the was the story that captivated the press in Central Africa that has no result and certainly what is to what is to keep these militias these these military from thinking that they too can impose a military solution or what is to prevent Hutu militias from thinking that they must press there. When you care to answer the question I think that any attempts to try and negotiate a settlement between the Hutus and Tutsis in Burundi is going to be

that much more difficult because you now have a much stronger regional political military situation controlled by the. This is a situation where Kofi Annan is now going to be pressed right back to the western hemisphere let's talk Haiti for a second here because when there when crises exist these countries are all in the news and as soon as the crisis gets resolved they disappear on our radar screens. Well I haven't been to Haiti in over a year. I talk with people from time to time most recently I was hosting. A visit by the minister of women's affairs. She and I visited you know why she was here in Washington. Just a couple of weeks ago or less than that someone in Haiti was telling me there was a feeling of insecurity but there is a big problem Kojo and I think that you're probably the best person to look into this further is why

do Caribbean countries fall out of news coverage here in the United States which is the seat of the Western Hemisphere. When I watch CNN which I think has the most comprehensive international news on a regular basis why is it that I can read a can and can hear about the Chilean Polynesia. You know Easter Island and Santiago de Chile or Lima Peru what's going on in Lima or Mexico but you never hear what's going on in Port of Spain Trinidad or in Haiti. You never hear background stories about the culture and how people earn a living in Haiti. When you get that kind of information from Poland and. Ukraine Eastern Europe and so forth. But I think that a lot of Haitians are very happy. That things are not the way they were there four years ago. I think a lot of people are optimistic. I hope that people in the temp

Department Haitians who are overseas are busy making plans and have started to reinvest and send more systems to their country. You know Haiti had a big problem with deforestation I'm not sure I know that there was money being held up by international organizations waiting for Haiti to comply with I guess some structural adjustment which you know we hear a great deal about these countries when there was massive U.S. intervention of any kind. People who were born after 1983 have probably never heard of Grenada. People who achieved adulthood before 1983 must say oh I wonder whatever happened to that. Then there was of course our funding of the Contras in Nicaragua and people would say what's going on in Nicaragua. Same question to you. Well I was fortunate enough to work in the first phase of the electoral monitoring mission for the Organization of American States over the summer monitoring voter registration. It was my first visit to Central America on my first visit to Nicaragua and an election was decided we need to see if this came

pretty close to evidently. I was not there for the election in October but it was it was a toss up for a while. Mr. Arden mine turned out to be the eventual winner. And we'll see whether because evidently they say that Nicaragua is the second poorest country in the hemisphere after Haiti. It's got a lot of the same development problems and I just hope the United States with Mr. Helms and his and you have a new secretary of state Madeline Albright coming into office here is there any reason to believe that those Caribbean countries will get any more attention than they have been getting. There are there are rumblings and within the State Department a class action suit had been filed by black Foreign Service officers some time ago. It continues they claim they can't get posted in these countries and maybe that's one of the reasons for the lack of attention. I think that in part depends on people like your viewers number one and

us sitting here at this table. We have to keep bringing it to the fore because there is really no affirmative action in U.S. foreign policy policy policy circles and in international organizations. I was saying during the break that someone I know just came back from working in Rwanda and I can't understand why there's more than 90 percent of the various international organizations that are represented there working in relief and the Human Rights Commission and so forth. Why are they all white. Absolutely amazing. Let's get back to Africa talk about Liberia and Nigeria maybe Nigeria first because when last we looked at general a botcher was still firmly in control of Nigeria the democracy movement. It would appear it was being still with a lot of suppression from the Nigerian army any progress at all. Unfortunately General Bachus still firmly in control he's now reshaping himself to become president. He has registered political

parties that are now calling for him to think of standing for president. The pro-democracy movement has by and large been silenced within the country. The independent press continues to write articles critiquing government policy and government actions. But then they pay the price for it. I think what is going to happen this year is really trying to do some kind of damage control because the budget's transition program is moving forward and unfortunately unless we hear outside of the country are more successful in pushing our governments to challenge this transition program and expose it for what it is we're going to we have to try and figure out how to ameliorate the worst parts of it reading magazines coming out of Nigeria which are clearly biased in favor of the about your regime. They make the argument that it is not in the U.S. the economic interest at this point to push them out of office because the U.S. still has significant

investments in Nigeria that they do not want to see disrupted and that any attempt to get rid of a job botch at this point is likely to threaten those investments. Well that is basically trying to prevent. The fire instead of the blaze the forest fire at the end. If we allow this government to continue its own transition program in the end there's not going to be a stable democracy there's going to be another military coup and then you're going to see different parts of the country that have been competing for resources and are going to start start thinking about secession as happened during the war. It is in the U.S. interest to make a stand now and try to really help the country build institutions that are accountable and that can begin to at least to respond to people's perceptions that there is fairness and justice in the system. I've been reading that Carrington representing the United States was called in by the foreign minister.

You know I thought was quite interesting the foreign minister called in Carrington because Ambassador Carrington had. Sent a report back to Washington saying that there was going to be a bomb or a series of bomb blasts and that personnel should be from that area. And of course the Nigerians have accused him of having for knowledge and of and then being linked to the plot. That's what it sounded like to me. It's quite amazing that then the Nigerians themselves have accused the Canadians. If you remember of them trying to invade the country when one of the Canadian officials who was supposed to be going on a Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group delegation wanted to bring security guards on the trip. They said that this was tantamount to invading the country so I think the people in a car are using what ever and anything they can to basically create a storm and sort of. Work themselves up into a fit to sort of resist any kind of compromise on Liberia. While Liberia is truly the tragedy because that is the U.S. stepchild that is the country where the

U.S. could have a relatively small investment and intervene early and try to broker some kind of negotiations with the early. Rebel at that time Charles Taylor had instead opted to let the Nigerians try and understand. And on the one hand understandably deliver an African solution. But then did not participate or to ensure that certain principles of accountability and respect for civil law and human rights and protection of civilians was done by the economic force. You now have a very weak president of the interim council with Perry who is sitting opposite some of the worst human rights violators on the continent and who is supposed to try and push the country towards elections and disarmament. By the middle of 1997. It's not a very promising picture but it can. Again it's not too late. And if the secretary of state designate Albright were to take this up in a very vibrant way and. Again for very

little effort they could they could manage to change the road you're not in the room. Well I was just going to say that I spoke with President Perry when she was in Washington for the dedication of the new National Council of Negro Women building a couple of months ago and she while she was here she asked. I think at the State Department and President Clinton to please send a human rights mission to Liberia. But I think you'd be wonderful if. The secretary of state to all intents and purposes Madeleine Albright would either visit Liberia or do that and also have President Perry come back and talk about what the United States can do to help to quell that civil seems to be talking about situations in which there was crisis the crisis seemed to be resolved for a while but which are on the brink of erupting into crisis again. I think you've been too generous those crises never if they were never on the ground in the verse a basically just updated their base of exactly and.

And that unfortunately. It was taken by Washington as for the signs not from one of them. I would like to see us as a black cultures also encourage the greater participation of women in the public realm. We're talking about Mrs. Perry. But for example in the secretary general race for the U.N. out of all of the women who were brought forth as candidates potential candidates hopefully candidates you know get a higher profile to their careers out of being posed as potential candidates. There was no black woman there was at one time a black woman who's president would not support a resume the secretary general in this current cycle sure there was in in from Africa. There was no black African woman. Although there were Asian women there were European women. And I felt kind of sensitive to that. And I don't know what this says I think that we need to have globally. And one of the messages coming out of the Beijing conference was that we need to have the participation of women in public in solving public crises.

I don't see any women bearing arms and killing kids in Liberia or in Rwanda and Burundi. And I think that that women need to be empowered in black societies also to help to solve because we can't succeed socially if we don't get over these violent problems. And so you can have economic development people can eat and get an education. Speaking of Rwanda the partition has been suggested as one of the possible solutions to the problems in those countries. It is a war that most people do not like a great deal. But if the situation is as intractable as it appears to be made in that that at some point be a practical solution will the former president of Tanzania and Julius Nyerere said that it was absolute and illogical option because there was no way to clearly distinguish between Hutus and Tutsis there were significant intermarriage. They speak the same language and it also basically doesn't take away the problem

Justice resources and equal access to resources. There's a scarcity of land in both of those two countries. Does it mean that the Hutus are going to get a larger percentage of the pie of the land because they have a larger population. What has to be done is that you've got to start encouraging people not to resort to violence to resolve differences. And the only way that happens is to first make violence an unacceptable alternative so that people pay the price and and are prosecuted and punished for that. And then also create institutions that are really as much as possible accountable and democratic so that everybody has a little buy into the system. There has been some discussion of possible partition in Zaire for those who used to be the became cultural constructs. And I would desire and because of the rebel in Carson's unclear rebel success there's also talk that we might see that at some point.

It is interesting some people think that it's going to have a violent upheaval. Other people think that the divisions that you're talking about has have already happened because of the basic dysfunction of the federal state. There's basically no central government defector which is Army does not function except for his presidential militia and his foreign mercenaries who protect him. The provincial governors basically run things on their own. Some people think that that is going to be how the year remains for a few decades possibly a little longer and that there will be a series of negotiations to basically allow for the movement of goods and services but Zaire is a years is as a huge problem in terms of this. And if this monument a rebel movement can consolidate its hold. I don't think there's anything with unless there's a you know completely regroups and focus is that it's defective and you and you which does not seem likely at this point and for those of us who don't have a few decades to spare it would be worth all of our whiles to turn more

serious attention in the year 1997 to the problems which we see in the continent of Africa and into those countries in the western hemisphere to which the media frankly has not been paying a great deal of attention to make sure that the attention of other people and in particular of the State Department gets focused on these countries so that we can see some participation by the United States in a constructive way to try to resolve some of these problems would like thank you. Marian Douglas and you. Thank you. Joining us when we come back the Marcus Garvey charter school principal laureates all up here on the evening exchange. Good. And the person at the center of the controversy at least one of the persons Dr. Marion

who is the principal of the Marcus Garvey charter school. My pleasure good to have you all along and allow me to try to start with the latest. Exactly where are we white know who has been charged with what and what is likely to happen without so far. Doctor in The Bell who is my client Brenda Gatlin who is Mr. Clemens client. Miss Smith was attorneys not here today has been charged and a fourth person. Mr. Smith first name unknown has been charged. And the charges are simple assault. Contrary to what the earlier releases said about salt on a police officer sample of selves taken Barberin without white. Yes there we go. But there are four counts of them because there are three separate people against whom the simple assault charges are made. Now these are all misdemeanors. These are all misdemeanors. Who is this Mr. Smith.

First name we don't know. Do you have an employee of the school. I mean they are they they know who it is they just don't know who or what his first name was having they taken his picture. You know his pictures were taken inside the school. They know the names of the people who were there that day. All of these charges are misdemeanors. Well what does that mean. Well by all of these charges being misdemeanors what it means is that most likely the defendants will not be entitled to a jury trial. There are some arguments that are will be made as to why they should have a jury trial. But. It has been it was two years now that they're streamlining it. Yes. Which denies individuals in the chain of Colombia charged with certain misdemeanors the right to a jury trial. What is the penalty that these individuals can receive for the assault counts it is up to 180 days taking property without right is 90 days. What's the difference between taking property without right and left. Property does not have to be taken or permanent.

You don't have to have a permanent intention to keep the property. OK I wanted to get through all of these legal terms first. We are talking about a situation in which there were clearly missed judgments made whether by one side or another but in which it was also quite as clear that there was no serious injury involved on either side. Why is this matter in court and why was it before a grand jury. That's a very interesting question and we have asked ourselves that same question. I in a sense disagree with regard to the fact that misjudgments were made on the part of all. OK I agree that misjudgments were made on the part of MS from Recio. The part of least however I am not in agreement with you that misjudgments were made on the part of the personnel in the officials of the school as to why we are here. Fortunately the United States

attorney and the forces of the government have made a decision that they will pursue this matter in the mold and that the avenues that they have elected which is the criminal justice system is an unfortunate situation but nevertheless those forces haven't been brought to bear against us and against the officials of the school. We have no choice but to defend against whatever they bring must hold the public knows that a lot of conversation goes on between prosecution and defense. Outside of the courtroom situation can you tell us why it was that apparently there was not much such conversation in this case and why did it have to go this far. Right now that's a lot about style Now that's not really true about me generally as a person I don't have a lot of conversation with the prosecutors generally speaking I represent my clients and their interest in this particular case I did work with the prosecutors and we went down to the grand jury I spoke with Mr. Cole I told him. Why client for you know there was a discussion about whether or not back to a needle would go in front of the grand

jury that she would not go in front of grand jury because I did not believe that it was ever intended to be a fair investigation. It was clear to me it's clear from the circumstances of the way that things were let me ask about another way. What harm do you think it would have done to your case and your client to have gone before the end you. What harm would it have done is that it was clear that when you put first of all no client a minor who is charged with a or potential target of a client has ever gone before a grand jury. It's a promise it's a policy of my and anybody who knows me knows that. Because it can not benefit your client. You know your client when they are in the grand jury they do not have a lawyer with them. They have the prosecutor asking questions they may be asked in a confusing way there is no one to object. I have no prosecutors to get the grand jury to laugh at a person in order to make them feel embarrassed into giving a different answer. I've sat outside and heard this. So I would never ever suggest that a client of mine go in front of a grand jury particularly when I felt that the grand

jury was biased for the process not the grand jurors they're just they're just there and I'm just going to one more thing that I just explained to you the process and how the prosecutors behave. This has to do with Mr. Gatlin who is Mr. Clemens Kline which Clemens was in trial before a judge in the Superior Court. I went upstairs to the prosecutor's office with his client merely to say that Mr. Clemens was unavailable and could not come in at that time. The prosecutor Mr. Cole turned to its Gatland and said Today is your day you have to go in front of the grand jury. And I said but she has a right to counsel. And Mr. Clemens is in trial. He said well that's too bad no we will get her on the air. Now where's the prosecutor get off deciding that he's going to decide who someone's lawyer is going to if he has no right to do that. Did she still go in and meet you right I'm going to get I walked out of there. What happened was Miss Hope is in the Carolinas before trial that one of these court

judges. When Liz Holt came in with my client I could see from the expression on the faces something had gone desperately wrong. And after she informed me as to some of the acts which had transpired I approached the judge and asked her whether or not she will permit us to have a brief recess so that Miss Hope could bring me up to date in total with regard to what was happening over in the grand jury. It was only subsequent to the adjournment of the trial for that day that I then was able to go over and speak with must a call and Miss Hart as she had explained to you. We share a position with regard to allowing our clients to go before a grand jury which is totally within the control of the prosecution. And you've got to remember that the U.S. attorney's office is the prosecution. Their job in general is not to protect the rights of the defendant or to make sure that the process is a fair way. This is something that we would like to believe. But in actuality this is not something that happens but it was only

subsequent to my enjoyment that I was able to go over and inform them that we had no intention of gotten ourselves off that their offer to come before the grand jury wanted to get some of the legal issues out of the way first because I know members of our viewing audience are curious about them and they'd like to know what is the next step and when does it take place. The next step is that we will be due for arraignment on Friday morning at 10 o'clock. Right to the right of the tent camp Jan.. Right and arraignment is simply a proceeding in which you enter a plea. And I know for my client will be entering a plea of not guilty. You also asked me why there was no talking going back and forth with the prosecutor. You know in addition to what I thought was prosecuted misconduct in this case people for example asked why are there plea bargains or whatever a person cannot plead guilty to something they did not do. Therefore there could have been no meaningful discussions with the prosecutor because the person who is guilty here is the complainant that the prosecutor represents.

OK. For those of you in our viewing audience who may feel differently who believed one version of the story or another version of the story you should understand that we cannot in this discussion not ask Dr. needle about the particularities of this incident because she has been advised by her counsel not to speak on it. But I can address such questions if I choose to do one or the other members of our defense team however. You have both heard details of both versions of the story offered and there is still however a great deal of curiosity about the Marcus Garvey charter school itself. And those are questions that Dr. and they both can certainly ask the doctor and he will tell us a little bit about the history and background of the school. Marcus Garvey charter school is unique you might say in that it's one of the five schools that were charted this August in this town a charter school is a parallel public school. It's public in that it's open to any person living within the.

Municipality where the funds are produced and it's open to there for anybody any child who lives there. Now allow me to interrupt because we have read some of that history and about how you have dedicated the latter part of your teaching career to teaching particularly young black males that you started in your home doing this and that evolved into this. However a few quick technicalities. It was initially a school for boys who had to admit one girl why was that. No it was initially a school for boys and I have admitted five girls. OK. Because at this particular point in our history as a people our male children are in trouble and they need our attention this is not to say that girls don't need attention. But you know if you go to the doctor he asks you where does it hurt. And that's where he pays attention likewise as an educator and a psychologist. I think that our male children are desperately in need greatly in need of particular

kind of attention. And I am most ably suited to given that kind of attention because I have the gift to do that. What is it about the curriculum of the Marcus Garvey School that you feel has enabled you to do the successfully. And what evidence do you have of your success. Well first of all let me let me just address the word curriculum. People talk about curriculum as if it's some sort of a Nagell treatment for something curriculum simply means teaching plan. All right. And any curriculum will do. There's nothing special about the Marcus Garvey curriculum indeed we use D.C. public schools curriculum but it's the it's a learning environment the ambience of the school the philosophy upon which the school's life is based. And that's what makes Marcus Garvey different. Evidence of my success. I got lots and ence of my success I started in my dining room with my son and several other boys. One child

came to us from a school district in the Midwest. He was a gang member he shot people shot at people and by the time he left to me he was doing fine. I write he was attending school every day making good marks not shooting anybody not wanting to shoot anybody then himself. Establishing goals and doing quite fine. That presumably is what the school board looked at when they decided to approve the charter for the Marcus Garvey School. Would its critics say it did not look at were staffing other procedural matters. What was your experience with the school. I don't know that the school board didn't look. I mean the school board looked at anything other than what I represented in my application not only from Marcus Garvey but for all the applicants. You say that they didn't look at staffing. Of course they did look at that thing. They ask questions very detailed questions in the

application. Much has been made in the media of the of the employment of a nephew of yours who apparently has a criminal record about them. Well I mean there's not much to say. My nephew committed a crime when he was 17 years old. He's now 37 years old. He paid dearly for it the better part of his growing up years has been in prison doesn't mean that he should not work doesn't mean he should pay for the rest of his life for the things that he did and already paid for I don't think so. Does that add to that also that you forgot to remember the District of Columbia at any given time one fourth of all black men are either on probation parole or incarcerated. If having a prior criminal record were a stopper in DC then the rate of unemployment amongst black males would triple what it is right now however an issue have been made about the fact that apparently you had a much more recent offense than the one.

Anybody for to know that's that's not correct because you're asking a question. OK. He was on parole and he was in a car that somebody had taken from his girlfriend in the. And the girlfriend called the police because this is her boyfriend took the car and report the car a stolen money if he was in the car. You know both the girl and her boyfriend who were his buddies and because he had a record you know he was given this spike on the hand so to speak because he was already on parole. He didn't steal a car itself. You know what did I tell you The Washington Post and The Washington Times do what they do. I do what I do. My nephew does what he does. Let's talk about the Washington Times for a second and not about the specific incident. I had seen the previous two articles that were at you had written about the school in the Washington Times editorial that was in support of charter schools. I don't think we're going to go into well the reason why we're not going to go into that is because this Shiner has made some statements

that shine and just scientists are trying to do that with regard to how those articles were favorable to the school. I wasn't on the right and I was not the nubile with her objection was so I think that I think that we ought to leave that alone because I think that is going to come up as part of the case and I preceded the fact that you want to get the information but I think that. The subjects that are going to be part of the testimony indicates that everybody's going to have to wait until we have a trial to hear it. But man I think that's clearly going to come up. How has this incident affected your ability to run the school. It certainly has affected public perception of the school either for or against depending on who you're talking to. But how has it affected your ability to run the school as in the manner that you were running it before. I'm doing a better job than I was doing before. Why is that. Because. What that necessity is the mother of invention. Well adversity is the is the color of resources. Inner resources. You know I'm

learning things about myself that perhaps I would not have learned had that face a situation. And by the way my enrollment just skyrocketed. You know have I now have I have a waiting list of about I don't know maybe 30 pupils who want to come into Marcus Garvey. So the public still has not affected you adversely in terms of recruitment. Not at all. Quite the opposite. OK let's talk a little bit more about the trial and you feel that this is a trial that should not have taken place in the first place which obviously means that you think it will be a quick and speedy dismissal. What I'm saying is that I don't believe the charges should help been brought. But before I respond to that this one comment that I would like to make before we leave the question with regard to impacts. Which of now developed as a result of articles by The Washington Times and The Washington Post. One of the things that is most evident is that we are in fact dealing with the media this is something that we must realize the media has great resources and excellent

ability to manipulate opinion and perspective. You noted or you questioned how it was that the Post or The Times had caused the public to have a certain perception of the schools. I would separate indicate to you now that this is one of the main problems that we have with this entire case is that the public has only been allowed to see in certain instances because of the legal problems and concerns those states which have been put forth by the Times and by the polls. Now one of the things which is most noteworthy is the fact that the very gentleman whom you spoke of a couple of minutes ago the nephew Oh Mr. Gatlin who was vilified. In the Washington Times and the perception is that this is a very evil person it calls a lot of questions on the part of the public with regard to what's happening in that school. But no one has noted that has not been charged. So that shows you the ability of the

Washington Post to create a perception in the public's mind that the Times to create a perception in the public's mind. But yet apparently there was no basis for that. But yet they have gotten that out to the public. Well what we were attempting to get out to the public and we hope we have met with some success is trying to give you an indication of what the Marcus Garvey charter school is all about what is its mission whether it is continuing with that mission and a brief update on what's going on with the trial and going to ask all these people to make a promise to come back to talk about this another time I'm sure we will. OK thank you very much out of time gotta go. Thank you all for joining us. Live out of time.