Evening Exchange; Muddy Waters ; Weekly News Analysis ; R & B and Go-Go Music in D.C.

An alleged al Qaeda plot to explode a dirty bomb in the U.S. The Life and Times of blues legend Muddy Waters and Washington D.C. has some music legends of its own. All next on the evening Xchange. Hi I'm Kojo Nnamdi welcome to evening exchange should judge Elfland queen be returned to the bench as a senior judge. That's just one of the questions our panelists will answer. In our news analysis as a judiciary panel considers the application of the judge in the tragic case of toddler Brianna Blackman's who was murdered after the judge ordered her return to her mother's care. We'll also

discuss the latest developments in America's ongoing attempt to weed out terrorists. But first the story of blues legend Muddy Waters. The man who just the music. In case you're not familiar with the music of Muddy Waters. Here's a short clip from his historic performance at the Newport Jazz Festival. That's his mojo not his clothes. Ok here to remind some of us and to inform others of the magic that was muddy is the author of the book can't be satisfied The Life and Times of Muddy Waters and the producer of the documentary Muddy Waters can't be satisfied. Robert Gordon welcome. Thank you. What do you mean by Muddy Waters. Just the music that

was Leadbelly. That was Robert Johnson. What did muddy do. Well just in that for one thing he added I had electricity. And then after the electricity that brought power. So we had all the juice the music the juice the music. Hence the origin of the phrase was the origin of the book and the documentary What inspired you to do. I've written a lot about blues and and sort of roots roots sounds in America and by telling the story of Muddy Waters I was able to set it in the larger context of the well of the whole. Modern blues and of the whole African-American migration from the south to the north. Muddy Waters real name was McKinley Morganfield Where did muddy waters come from. It actually evolved over time as a child. He played in the

mud and I think that when his grandma named him muddy to the mud was both a playground and it was also a you know it was danger the river in the Mississippi Delta was a powerful force and a flood force. So I think by naming him that she was sort of trying to take control of the Fates. Muddy Waters Why is his music an important part of American folklore and American popular culture. Well it's good for one thing it's really good. Really good. But additionally what he did he was a sharecropper in the south playing an acoustic guitar who moved to the north when the plantation overseer wouldn't give him a raise to twenty five cents an hour. So he went up there and plugged in the guitar and created the sounds that are now you know that we called Blues

and that became rock and roll. There's a story about Muddy Waters that you can hear both in the book and in the documentary but then muddy heard a white man coming looking for him and what he thought in 1941 he was on the plantation. August 30 first and heard that a white man was looking for him. He assumed it was the revenue agent. Why come in to bust his moonshine you know because he was he because he always had a sideline and. And at that point one of his side lines in addition to trapping and joking was he was a he was a moonshine runner from a sharecropper to Chicago. It's clear that the one thing that Muddy Waters had in addition to his remarkable talent was a whole lot of self-confidence. It's amazing actually. You're right. A guy who comes from a society that

that that wasn't even documented you know it was the dirt farmers and sharecroppers they just weren't recorded and here's a guy who said no you know I have work and I'm out here to prove it. And he and he did one of the ways he figured out that he had worth was not only because people were coming to see him even when he was a sharecropper. But talk about his response the first time he heard his own voice recorded and played back to. It's a great that's a great moment when they made these recordings in 1941 John work and Alan Lomax made these recordings the they played back the recordings before they left. And that gave me the chance to be both in the spotlight and in the audience to hear himself. And it was the validation of hearing that he heard that he said. Man I can sing you know just like all these other guys who I have on the 78. I can sing.

And you know so strange because so many of us when we hear our voice recorders for the first time. Oh that's terrible. I don't need to sing or do anything else for that matter what you was born in 1913 was born in 1913. He lived until 1983 right. Seventy years old. By choosing the music was muddy controversial. Were there people who believe that's at stake here. I think there's always people who want to you know stay with the status quo. You know even in art. But it wasn't a controversy like when he did a psychedelic record in this in the 60s. It wasn't that much of a controversy. Indeed. However muddy waters it would appear influenced as many white musicians overseas particularly in England as he influenced musicians generally in the United States. Why was that. I've always been aware that you know the British invasion was that the taking of American sounds and kind of bringing it back.

But in doing the research for the book I found that when when when muddy went to England in 1958 he plays the raucous South Side Chicago blues. He's been playing on the raucous South Side of Chicago. Well they were expecting him to play acoustic. So that that defined that that drew the line and there were those in the audience who said you know no this is a horror and they became the old fogeys and they were the kids who said hey this is great. I want a guitar and an amp. The Rolling Stones were named after Muddy Waters record. They were what record. A record called Like a Rolling Stone Rolling Stone. They actually you know were. He made several trips to England and they were in the audience. The animals were in the audience Eric Burdon and the animals. I was surprised to find out that of all people David Bowie's first band was also named after a muddy water song the mannish boys.

Talk a little bit about how those artists said they hooked up in the case of Keith Richards of the stones. It was so spiritual as you'll see in the documentary that you may not even quite understand. But Mick Jagger I think also talked about and David Bowie the kind of special meaning Muddy Waters had for them doing very trying times in their own lives with a poor. I think that people found a strength and the blues. I think the blues is in Brace's it's past and it's root. I think that that gives it you know unlike pop which is of the moment and today I think people want I know you know it's a powerful sound. And Muddy Waters himself is a powerful sound. I think now would be a good time for us to take a look at a clip from the documentary made by Robert about Muddy Waters. Let's take a look. Muddy was playing when I was plowing a that area.

And I called him today the godfather of the blues. I. Always talked to him. He was all for me. If you notice. A lot of it you may see. The. Team. And the money team is a team everyone is trying to but but it's a piece in this whole. Money had something about him that made the songs themselves. But what he was doing at the same time was inventing the rock and roll company.

When Muddy Waters was talking to you. I was patting my feet. When he was talking sound like he was singing all the time. The most sexy blues man I've ever encountered Yes. Without a doubt. I think about an hour I get kind of tired. OK. So we have Bonnie Raitt saying that Muddy Waters was the sexiest blues man who ever lived. Apparently muddy took that pretty seriously in terms of his own life. Oh man that was a I didn't know I was quite what I was quite getting into his eye. I knew what I was doing this book. I wanted to get past the stage and pass the recording studio. But when I got into his home life and I started to meet family and friends and then children and then girlfriend wives and girlfriends and at one point in the documentary one

girlfriend last year was the one who was you know going out to the clubs. He was the one who took care of the children. He was the one who took care of the home. And I was the one in the background you know and this was like four ladies he was juggling just during that little time all at the same time all our friends wife children all together clearly Muddy Waters and you saw him in the documentary and the book warts and all. Clearly he was a work in progress because it would appear that as he got older he wanted to get closer and closer to family children and grandchildren regardless of who their parents happened to be. Right right. I think I think that that was sort of his roots coming back to him. You know he was raised by his grandmother and lived with his uncle who was only five years older than him. They had a very tight home and the fact that he stayed in the Delta until he was 30 because he didn't want to leave his grandmother and I think that sense of family stayed with him. Indeed I was quite surprised to realize that here's this blues man Chicago blues

man who moved to virtually the suburbs in order to be with his grandchildren great grandchildren and young children. Well at the time when he did that in the early 70s the South Side of Chicago was getting to be pretty dangerous. The line in fact for two gangs was right on his block right in front of his house so it was there was trouble and he had just gotten some financial payment from some back publishing monies owed so he had he had coffers to go get a suburban home and he did it. It was interesting when I went to visit that home. It's right by a train track and I thought you know I just sort of romanticized for a moment that maybe he thought you know of the trains and the Delta. And it was sort of my connection to him. It gave him some flashbacks. Muddy Waters Bonnie Raitt or somebody in the documentary you mentioned his influence on rock and roll music and of course we tend to think about people like Chuck Berry influencing the early rock n roll as you think

that Muddy Waters influence and rock and roll music has not been has not been explained enough is not well enough. No I think that by being a blues artist and like Chuck Berry who's kind of a rock artist Chuck song stay in circulation on the oldies stations and the blues artists kind of get put you know on special shows at night time on small stations so his name is kind of falling out of the public knowledge to a certain degree. But the songs you know stand up to repeated. I spent five years on. Played them a lot. I didn't get tired. I was spent five years on this project. Yeah. Every documentary filmmaker I've ever talked to has talked about how much time it takes to raise money to do what you're going to do with that a problem for you. It was. It always is. That's it. And it goes with the territory no need to explain it no need exactly to go into it. But when you're doing a documentary on somebody like Muddy Waters who spend

over 70 your life as much as he did how do you decide what you're going to put in and put on to exclude. There's so much there. That was where doing the book and the documentary at the same time was a nice thing because I knew that I could I'd have room in the book to tell everything and explain everything and what I wanted to tell explained more. I'd say it in the back notes. You know there was going to be space to make the case in the documentary. I guess in the end you go what do we have the best footage of you know what story can we best tell. And and this one worked nicely. We didn't really talk about his hits and we sort of let that news out of the other tellings and we talked about his family and about bands and things like you mentioned the controversy over money playing psychedelic music. We know that his music was used by groups like the Beatles and The Rolling Stones and The Animals. How did he feel about those groups. The Rolling Stones came over to America and

immediately began to tell people here that they got their sound from a guy here named. Muddy Waters. He was out there there was a press conference and a reporter said in America tell us what you want to see in America. And they said Muddy Waters and the reporter said Where where's that place. So they had a lot of educating to do and he was appreciative of their pointing out you know. How did you get involved with psychedelic music. That was through Chess Records in the 60s trying to expand the blues audience. And we talked about in the documentary they they approached him and and said you know we'd like to try to reach to this new new audience. Are you game. It might pay off and he said well I can use it. You know I can always use a paycheck. And I got a whole new approach here a whole new ear for listening from Chuck D.

Oh yeah. Who is also include in the documentary somewhat to my surprise I thought he was too young to be too young to appreciate him but he said that when he was seeking out sounds he found the electric mud album and thought it was great and put it on and said OK now let me go find some more by this guy. And he in the next thing he buys is a traditional blues songs like what is this. You know how come a guy wouldn't make these kind of records. So that gave me new ears for listening to the psychedelic blues. Robert Garn Robert Gordon is the author and film maker. The documentary can't be satisfied the life and times of Muddy Waters and the book by the same name. Good to have you here. Thanks very much for having me. The speaker of the house and Virginia's General Assembly may have groped his way out of a job or maybe not. The weekly news analysis when we come back. A visit from a Deputy U.S. Secretary of State has apparently helped to ease tensions between

India and Pakistan. What could he have said. Our panelists are sure to know. Jack White is with Savoy magazine. Brenda Wilson is with National Public Radio. Bonnie Obey is host of the country seen here on Howard University television and Todd Lindbergh as with the Hoover Institution and policy review. Brenda Wilson What is it the Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said to Pakistani President Musharraf and should Armitage be getting the credit for this easing of tension. Well essentially I think that they didn't want to toss the big ones at each other anyway. I mean I think in as much as the United States nor Russia ever they would always get up to the brink over something. I don't think anyone ever wants to go down that right route. I mean holding nuclear power is nothing to play with. And I think it make them as uncomfortable as it made everyone else. That said I think that the U.S. offered to help them negotiate. That wasn't just the U.S. It was the Brits who agreed to sort of help them mediate. I also think part of this was just simply pushed by the fact that I don't know in India to

some extent in the mix in this whole mix in the region was feeling sort of pushed out of things like that if we can use this phrase here and I know people will object if anybody blinks. Here was Pakistan. I think that's right. I think that the U.S. and Britain and India will put pressure on Pakistan to shut down these militant groups that have been infiltrating across the line of control into the Indian portion of India controlled portion of Kashmir and doing terrible things including attacking their parliament killing a lot of people kind of thing last year. I think that everybody believes now that the war against al Qaeda cannot proceed as long as this kind of problem is going toward Lindbergh. It is clear that once India invoke terrorism and al Qaeda it put the US in a slightly different position than it was before. In relationship to President Musharraf of Pakistan. Yeah. Well and the reason that it did that is not just because it was invoked it was because there's actually substance to it. These are some really bad actors in this region and and the Indian

government has made immense strides in kind of making that case and laying that out. So I think what you see is a kind of catch up of awareness. You know the Indian government has known for a while what this problem is now there's a more broad awareness of what its origins might be. I don't think it's anything that the U.S. did on the diplomatic front much as the Bush administration or any administration would like to claim credit for it. I think it's what the U.S. did sort of by osmosis by leaking revelations that al Qaeda was behind a lot of the terrorist camps and the terrorist acts that alleged Pakistanis or Pakistanis working for al Qaeda committed against Indians. And so when Indians finally understood that it wasn't really just an Islamic Hindu war on the terms that they've known all along. But actually Middle East one of Middle Eastern origins and a whole different group of Islamic believers they realized hey why are we here.

This is this is a put up job we're not really angry at Pakistan are angry at bin Laden and why should we be wondering why it seems to me that I read analyses right from the start of this that because of President Musharraf's allowing the United States to use Pakistan as a staging area for the war against the Taliban that he had alienated certain extremist Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan and what he was trying to do essentially at this point was to appease them in some way shape or form in the Pakistanis had been playing footsie with al Qaeda for a long long long time. And sometimes it works to Pakistan any perceived benefit. Sometimes it works against them. This is a case in all Pakistan has always wanted to have a different situation in Kashmir. It didn't trouble them until recently to have problems going on them on the Indian controlled side of it because it keeps things up in the air and it works to their advantage. But I. And I wonder to what extent even now as much as you know you

say that Pakistan has essentially agreed to try to do a better job of controlling that region and controlling that border whether in fact they can because I always thought it was a fairly tenuous situation and Musharraf as much as everyone seems to adore him for his support in the United States. It's questionable in fact whether he can keep the lid on this groups. Well I invite you to I mean you know it's questionable how much either country will either pass a number of scenarios have been floated about how they can monitor whether or not they're going to control them. The Indians who've been threatening prior to this. This is tenuous the lowering of tensions we've had now to go across the border and clean those camps out themselves. And they certainly have the power to do it. But what's important though keep in mind is that this was Musharraf's sort of Us versus Them moment of let's say you're with us or you're with the terrorists and Pakistan doesn't want to fight and lose a war to India and for the sake of al Qaeda terrorists which is fighting on other fronts.

But I also think we have to India and Pakistan have been fighting over Kashmir since I was in India the first time in 1970 so this goes back quite a ways. Why has it. Why did it get so close to a nuclear war. Now because for the last couple of years al-Qaeda has become increasingly active in Pakistan and in the Pakistani part of the Islamic part of Kashmir. The Indian The Indian police could Tim know that that was the Pakistanis in Quetta were actually allies in that time they were actually the al Qaeda was doing stuff the Pakistanis didn't mind them doing well and that's the that's their argument at least whether it's true or not. Well we'll have to see if tensions continue to be. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is now going to the region to see what he can do there. And speaking of Al Qaeda the name Abdullah Muhajir is one that we now know he's the individual who it was revealed that was picked up in May and is now in the detention of the Defense Department where he may be held indefinitely because the

allegation is that he was related to a plot to try to explode a dirty bomb in the United States. More than related I mean helping it along bringing smuggling cash from probably Switzerland to the United States. What I don't understand is the U.S. reaction to this revelation in the stock market dipped precipitously after the news came out because everybody's panicking Oh my God they're going to they're going to use dirty bombs and we're going to have nuclear waste all over the place when in fact the reaction should have been. Look how good our intelligence was that we caught this guy way before the event happened. I think this is a victory for the Bush administration and I don't think they're touting it enough quite frankly that the intelligence system does work. Unlike 9/11 where it didn't work and a damn well should have or the like. I think people are quite confident of in fact what they did. And until there is some some evidence or some information presented in the court of law.

The only thing that we have is the administration's version. So we don't quite know and in fact what they did or what they have and to what extent they were whether or not you have a defendant in a situation like this you're not going to know until the trial. Well it may never be the trial. This fellow has been classified as an enemy combatant even though he's an American citizen. He's being held. The reason the news did not stick up for. No way. No no no no no. Let me finish. The reason that we know as to the reason we even know that he was in custody now he's been in custody for quite a while since he's because he's being transferred to the to the custody of the Defense Department you had to reveal it. The revelation comes at a time which is very politically useful for the administration which is trying to get its homeland defense plan for reorganization of the government going through. It does do exactly what you said it makes it look like the like the like the something the teleprompter or something as you know whether it's true or not. Who knows maybe it is. I mean it's it's better that they call him.

Does this prove that the problem has been solved. I don't think so. Well his lawyer has expressed concerns that I frankly understand and his lawyer says look I've got a muzzle on me. He's a lawyer who is never been allowed to see him. I can't say anything about my client. The government is allowed to say anything they want to say you're hearing the government's side of the case. We can't present our side of the case in public. How long should that continue. Well the answer to that is as long as it's necessary you know who does it. Well I think you're going to need to rely on the government to make that determination because the government is the thing that is fighting the war at the moment. You know I am concerned about civil liberties or shows I don't want to see a drastic erosion there. But there's also I don't I don't think there's any indication that the government is making this right say states are. Not only by criminals but also my enemy was taught. And that's a different kind of case is going to be hearing about this next month this case which will be determined among other things whether or not he is entitled to have access to a lawyer for

example which will only show up to the point at this point he is not here. This the guy is an American citizen. Like it or not Americans want American citizens to come to the court. There is no due process that goes on in Iraq. And when you look at one of the reasons why do you risk are you willing to risk another incident like 9/11 except this time when radioactive material. We a way whether this guy has been treated better. I want him. I don't. This is nothing new. Now he's saying it's to do with what he does following the Constitution processes that make the United States what country we're trading in as a military enemy is part of the U.S. constitutional process. Excuse me I went on to say that wasn't part of the reason that they moved him from the court in New York or from the prison in New York to the prison in South Carolina because there's a judge that doesn't agree with the administration that in fact they can detain people without these kinds of hearings to determine to charge them with something

the man hasn't been charged with a crime. He was initially a material witness. They changed his status as they got more information about they believe the guy died went to the guy. Supposedly they had all the information they were converted to Islam in this country. To put that information down and found that he had no baseline and probably Egypt is all I have to say. Well he he lied about how much money he was bringing back into this country from Switzerland where there are Swiss banks where people have money even. It's not like they don't know anything. I want to go back to the issue and to raise the question with both you and Todd by the way you seem to be implying is that the government is in charge of this war on terrorism. We in the media the American public are on the sidelines. Anything the government says is threatening to us that causes that to hold anybody for any indefinite period of time. Our role is simply to say OK no I think it's perfectly reasonable to raise the questions. I mean I think I think the government needs to

make a robust case for why it is doing what it's doing and particularly when it is doing things that clearly in the absence of the 9/11 context would be troubling and not permitted. But having said all that I don't think it is a priori the case that the government can't make such a case and can't make a compelling you know make the case in court. Right. I I'm not sure that you make the case for troubled by it. If this had not just followed a week of earrings on the wall and which this was the gang that couldn't shoot straight and all of a sudden they got their man. I mean unfortunately the timing of it just makes me a little bit more suspicious. And suspicion is what will have to stay with for the time being because obviously we're not going to resolve this issue right here right now. President Bush meeting with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon this past week indicating right after a meeting with the prime minister that it was not likely that they would be able to talks this summer. And then a day or two after Secretary of State Powell and others said no no no there are likely to be talks throughout the Middle East crisis as it would appear.

The administration has kind of on again off again diplomacy we don't seem to be quite sure what's going on. Is this reflex. Is this a reflection of differences within the administration. Well it's partly that and it's also the fact is nobody really knows what to do about this. I mean even right in the middle of the meeting between Bush and Sharon they came in late came in and announced this was another suicide bombing right in the middle of that meeting. Arafat has said that he is going to control these bombers. He has not been able to do it. The president has repeatedly said that he lacks confidence in Arafat's ability to be a good negotiating partner for Israel here. People on the other side don't think Sharon could be a good negotiating partner for the Palestinians. But I've got to tell you what I keep hearing from the Arab leadership is a concession that Yasser Arafat isn't doing a good job right. Yasser Arafat in my view is probably one of the greatest survivors of all time but it's beginning to look as if it might be over for him.

You know even if even just a few hours before we spoke here the Israelis surrounded this compound again and they had backed off from it again. They clearly determined Sharon is determined that that he is not going to do anything more. They cut a deal for ceasefire which will in the long term I mean stay with Arafat the long term solutions that people are talking about creation of a Palestinian state whatever it is the Israelis are not willing under the current leadership to deal with the current leadership of the Palestinians. I'm anything to say. Well I think it's sort of interesting essentially that they've gone from blaming him or holding him entirely responsible for it to deciding that he's entirely ineffective. I mean because initially part of the reason for the siege of the compound was that in fact he was responsible. Well he's either a liar or he's ineffective because he says he doesn't sponsor terrorism. But it happened. So either he has no control over the people who do or he's lying which is the more likely scenario because he does give one speech in English where he says he's opposed to terrorism and then he goes and speaks in Arabic and tells terrorists go blow yourself up and fight back.

There are things that he's not entirely in control of the situation because I do think Israel wouldn't have taken him out if in fact they thought that he is his most recent speech in Arabic on the question and he did say that he was opposed to it but that's not what he said in the past. I'm talking in purely political terms here regardless of the charges of who said who is right and who's wrong. It looks like politically Yasser Arafat is losing a lot of glory. I think that's right. I think Sharon has made tremendous advances with this case and it's really quite remarkable the circumstances under which this was taking place. I think on the administration's part I think the administration has long been of the view that the time is not ripe for intervention to try to move this thing along in a big way. What was sort of trapped by I guess the pressure of outside opinion into taking some steps some initiatives. And when these produced nothing as dramatically as they did that in turn buttress the administration's case that the time is not right and they also don't want to be seen as the people who removed her for this particular I mean it may be that Arafat looks bad

but I don't think it's necessarily makes her all look any better. In essence I think you're at the situation where you are now because of the steps and the actions taken by Sharon when he came into office. However it does seem that the administration draws the line that actually removing Yasser Arafat is what gives the impression to carry on it. What do you love to do that. Well I think you know Israel would love to and can't and they don't want. I mean they could murder him and then that's what I'm talking about. Face the court of public opinion which the international court of public of if they can't control the suicide bombers. Now I don't think they know who or what they would be dealing with if in fact I mean I think that's an Gammick to the situation over there right now I don't think killing Arafat would completely stop the suicide bomber. And what you might get a sleeper in there give us a sense from Israel but you also might get somebody better. But don't forget the assassinations prior to the suicide bombings that were being conducted by the Israeli intelligence and

military. Yasser Arafat has been counted out before by both the left like the LP and survives. Who knows what will happen this time. We have to keep abreast of developments there. We also need to keep abreast of developments in the Commonwealth of Virginia where House Speaker vent will advance. Wilkins stands accused of being what is virtually a serial groper and. His call me. I can't believe you said that. That was the word that was used by the window. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You wouldn't notice that like a serial groper. That's a good one. What's going on. Well he's got a little bit of time to try to make the case to his fellow Republicans if he should stay in office. His basic point is well I'd pay the hundred thousand dollars. That doesn't mean I did anything which is being met with the response. My basic point is also look you guys the Democrats stood behind Bill Clinton when he was accused of much worse things than this. Why are you wimping out.

Well I don't know you could actually make the case that there's a certain consistency in the position that if you're going to be a hardliner on this one maybe you have to be a hardliner on your own local. He said I think this is equal time you know what's good. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I mean the Democrats have suffered through traffic can't. And Bill Clinton and Gary Condit and now the Republicans I mean I think you just think it's endemic it seems right now. Don't count anybody out. I mean I used to think at one time that certain kinds of this race would probably be dead. Richard Nixon popped back up I me here in Washington right now we've got a similar a similar scandal. The deputy head of the of the of the agency which collects child support and this has now been shown to be as possibly a person who is being sued for child support for a 20 year old son born out of wedlock that evidently has not paid support for at any time in this child's life. I mean how can you I mean I guess the army would be who who would know better how to collect money from a delinquent to ferret out somebody who has an experience that's you know what someone wants to read would say in his

defense there's still a hearing to be held in July to resolve aspects of this case. He is cooperating. Why he says my name in the paper this is one of those stories that insiders in the media talk endlessly about because for example former Governor Gilmore who has now been pretty much discredited in the Republican Party over the run doesn't want to have anything to do. But for a while he was governor he was having an affair that everybody in Richmond knew about with a state senator. He and his wife eventually split and he moved in with this state senator. This all became public but the media wouldn't report it while it was going on. But they are not hiding anything and consensual. But I you know I actually do think that there is a kind of work that everyone catches and I just I mean are just too many of these stories. I mean with the praise I think anybody who has a charge or claim against the public citizen or a person in a public position and they want to make it stick now or back down. It's not as though you're saying that's entirely possible versus telling the truth when he paid this hundred thousand dollars

he said just to avoid all the money. Can I just saying it's not. No no no no no I'm saying it's not a good time. I believe him. No no no. It's not a good time to have been caught imposing yourself on someone in the midst of this whole situation with the press. You have got a rock n roll singer who has been molesting and having sex with children. I'm not a rap singer. It's been done. It's not a good time to be caught or accused of that sort of violation right now. Judge Evelin you see the queen in the District of Columbia left her post after that began a black woman story became public. She ordered the toddler returned to the care of her mother Breanna Blackman was murdered. So far nobody except those who were actually convicted of the murder have paid a penalty for it. Nobody certainly certainly in the social services system seem to have paid a penalty for it. And now Judge queen wants to be returned as a part time quote unquote senior judge. This is a decision that will be made by a judicial plan that virtually never rejects the application

of any of the former Saffir but as it's what should she do. But as it was pointed out they had reinstated just prior to this. A judge Tim Murphy in which a man appeared in court and dropped dead because he completely ignored that the man was saying that he felt ill or that he was ill he just decided that the man was faking it. I mean it does not like it does doesn't inspire confidence in the process by which judges confirm themselves or reconfirm their tenure or whatever they do. My sentiments exactly I mean Judge queen has got a lot of support within the judiciary here in the district people who think that she didn't do anything that she should be disqualified for. But I think there are a lot of people in the public who after all have to have confidence in the courts who would disagree with that insider view. I quite frankly don't know enough about her record and I would like to know. Obviously that decision newspaper should say when it was ever said about like it doesn't bother this bothers me that the judges were reversed because there are a lot of you know there reversals all the time and I don't you know just because you interpret the law one way and the

judges above you interpret it another is not to me that doesn't say that your date and time just to follow. Or should she not now. But just follow on Jack's point that know the problem is judges are making decisions that will not set precedence for them when they are becoming a question of whether what will their conduct be reviewed and what kind of standards they will have in the future. And that creates all kinds of bad incentives. Thank you for joining us. Well the month of June is black music month and we'll celebrate some Washington D.C. music legends. After this short break. I tried to think of several clever and catchy ways to introduce our guests in this segment

but none of them worked. What I think is probably better is for you to take a brief tour of the music of Washington toe tapping finger popping harmonizing rhythm and blues head shape the music of Washington D.C. since the 1950s. It has made the nation's capital a center of American popular culture. Recording orders from the Washington area are legit. The rebels were one of the earliest. Dubois boken. And Washington was home to others. Like Marvin Gaye. Billy Stewart sitting right in the moment. You might not be. Oh my. The more kids. Getting on with. The jewels. Peaches and Herb. I.

I and Ben McCoy to name a few. In the 1950s and 60s the famed Howard Theater at 7:23 became the venue where rhythm and blues took. Place where local performers became national stars. Today Washington's rhythm and blues has evolved into the sound of Go-Go. Music on the move. A community's culture in transition the rhythm and sounds of Washington. Now allow me to introduce the legends who surround me and it's an intimidating group

responsa of the Marqise. Good to have you here. Her fan of peaches and her backup singer. A lot of good sounding beers. Hi how are you. And Stephen so who is co-author of the book The Beat Gogol's fusion of funk and hip hop. You would know that the only person at the table that I am really friendly with is the one person who can't sing. But he wrote a good book. You go girl so very very glad to have I'm really honored to be with this. Well this panel this afternoon this is this is a terrific group of people to be with. Let me start with Reese Palmer you grew up here in this capital dwelling you went to Cardoza High School along with Marvin Gaye you named your group the Monkees which you recorded the song White or twice once with Bo Diddley band and once with a different band on the OK label. Why did that happen. Well the truth harp says I have to tell the truth.

Through her life the company did not think that Bo Diddley verse was strong enough. So what they did call in the studio Union musicians when they went with the truth now who was the lead singer for the Monkees. Marvin Gaye you were the lead singer from a lot of books that will show you he will. He started the group that the markets perform with the Howard Theatre. No all the only marquee performed at the Hollywood film was the group that I had bought together again. How did you get recruited by Harvey Fuqua of the moon. It was as his second set of mongrel. Well when we got released from OK record we had a bass in our group that was Bo Diddley was on Valley and he ran into Harvey and Harvey and he was looking for a new group so he convince

Harvey to take our group which we became hobby's Moonglow Harvey himself as a legend. He developed something called the blow harmony method of harmonizing right in R&B and Doo-Wop was blow hard like everybody else at home to like her. Go on. To do with Harvey to blow on the word who openmouthed harmony is the word war. How did Chuck Boxtel of the dels become a Moonglow along with you and Marvin Gaye. Well it is strange because we were in a dorm in Chicago when we got to Chicago. We went by this pool room picture. And when the true light meant to me somebody was going to get sent back to D.C. and I knew we were rehearse with the next thing I knew when July 15 came around trip went around the room on the sides

of barrels of the jewels the Bears the jewels are a product of Roosevelt High School. Right. How did your group fall. Well we used to sing in the choir at school and we always like to sing that's what everyone did back in the 60s and me. Grace and I have been friends since we were 13 years old and like you say we went out and we started singing you know and and the rest as they say was history but that history had a little push from one Bo Diddley. That's what the time was living in Washington. He discovered you go so to speak. You young. How excited was it to be discovered by a legend. We weren't we were static. What happened on that group to go to his house to rehearse because he had a studio in his basement and Grace's brothers group was to go over there and he asked if we could come and we came over and. We started singing they had people to help you learn harmony and stuff like that to me hops and that's how we got to bring grace roughen and Marjorie Clark with the other members of

the group the name of the group was originally the Impalas I change the name. Well back in the day all groups were named after cars and. Cadillacs and so we thought that was hip but as we went on one of the people who helped us by the tools and we used to be called the Portillo's and then everything and changed that your Grace roughen was built for us for our cause and that's correct. And the jewels were backup singers for Billy Stewart on what songs we back him up one reap what you sow. And we also backed his brother up Johnny stood on Misery loves company. At one point the jewels were recruited by James Brown. Right. Yes. How did that happen. That was very exciting. We were at it we were appearing at the Apollo Theater and of all people who would be in the audience but James Brown and I enjoyed our show we got a standing ovation every night and he sent his bodyguard back to tell us how much he enjoyed us

and that if we were interested in joining his show we were under contract at the time so we couldn't join the. But eventually we did. Well on to her fame one of the most appropriately named individuals I have ever met. You should know that I always thought the group should be named Herb and peaches but Herb is a gentleman and so he always puts the ladies down the line. So how did Van McCoy quote unquote discover her thing. Well Van was here when I was working at a record shop at 17 Tikhon waxy Maxi's. I know that van walked into the shop. I had been asking people to listen and listen and nobody will listen so I backed van in the corner and I started singing when I phoned him. And he said I'll be back next week and I said Oh another one. He came back next week with his manager and we were on our way to New York to record. I was going to record as a single artist and Francine was in a group called the

sweet things and got the idea that Francine and I should record together and that's how it started. How did you get the name Peaches. Well her nickname was peaches and of course my name is Herbert. So we went into a frenzy and asked me to stop recording. How many hits. Well first you know I started recording in 1970. And we had. Five or six in a row. Oh my God. I was in love for your two kids. Oh the one that was the biggest ones you never made it seem so strange. After a hiatus you came back with a new peaches Linda Green and Peaches and Herb at that point became

megastars. We just shake your groove thing. Tell us about this young man that was with Freddie Perry pretty apparent. When I was working at Wesley Maxi's was working around the corner of 9th in Florida Avenue at a record shop cost savings and he was going to hold you. So we ran into him in New York and he wanted to produce Peaches and Herb and. That was it. We said yes. After another short hiatus you're back on the scene with a new peaches. Carla Couleur Yes well I've been working on we've been working for the last 10 years and I had I was working with a lady by the name Patrice Hawthorne Patrice Hawthorne a lovely guy. But we should tell our viewers that Peaches and Herb are going to be opening up for ABC Monday Night Football the Redskins versus the Philadelphia Eagles. Yes that's September 17th we were doing the halftime show. And that's also a show

coming up August 17th at the Lincoln Theater. You should also know that our other guests Reese Palmer still performing. And Sondra. Also still performing tonight. Yes. It never ends and also never ends is the beat of a Go-Go Charles Stevensons book is called The Go-Gos fusion of funk and hip hop. What is it that created Go-Go this panel. I mean really I mean the of DC go all the way back I mean all the way back to her into the Orioles to the Jews. DC has always rallied around live music. And when we did our research we found out that back in the day when station people would go to the cabaret halls of Washington. And bands were always popular you know get your bands to perform. And as a result.

In the late 60s rather Smokey Robinson did his tune go out to a Go-Go. People would identify going to go go to a dance. I'm going to go go right. OK. And I've just meant you're going to live. Burn out a Masonic temple down the street. You know had a room somewhere like that you want to go. Know the whole because of the advent of Disko later on Pat McCoy Chuck Brown decided he had to do something to earn a living. So did he. But really the bands with dance bands and really really. Understand the audience. Go-Go was basically dance music but the beat the roots of Gogo music go back to Africa. They certainly do. And Chuck what do you say he did he know the beat down. You know a little bit from the reglue fast disco beat any incorporated percussion but he wasn't really the first to do as you know. Dizzy Gillespie did that

and his bass he brought in percussion and Latin bands in New York would do that with some bands in D.C. that also hit because just so Chuck said he remembered that and he remembered to feel that he would get from percussion instruments. Didn't Grover Washington have an influence on his system and he attributes Mr. Magic as being one to. You heard that did it all. They'd all come together before he had put out blow your whistle with some other tunes. But he said when you heard Mr. Magic It just all brought it front and center for him. One of the amazing things for me is the college students and others who come from around the country to come to school in Washington. Take that Google music back home and their friends this. This is what they play in Washington outside of a couple of hits. It has never been able to break big nationally. Why do you think that's true. It's a tribute to various obstacles one industry the industry has not tried to understand. Go go to the artists themselves here in Washington D.C. call Joe. They did they kind of

arrogant. I mean they want to play this Go-Go music and they don't want it to be watered down and they know that if they you know put some more melodies on it they do some other things that it could be more commercial but they won't do it. So as a result we have this kind of stand big tradition of Go-Go music in Washington as the call and response feature of it. Apparently a record recording executives outside of the Washington area doesn't think that provides the kind of clean sound that they want on their desk. And again another problem Go-Go is best captured live. We really got to go it's three dimensional you really have to come to a go go. I could put on a CD right now. Your audience would probably say what is that. But if they were going to go to actual Go go and be part of. You know that atmosphere and they would get it because we really have to be there. Mean to call responses Cojo is really around people who they call out very far as they call out east gate. You know that's a way to bring in where people go now in D.C. to hear Go-Go music if they don't

know you go right up on Georgia Avenue to so-called black hole celebrity hall. You can go to the 9:30 club every once in a while and then there are other venues around town and not as many as they used to be. Trade winds all around. No I at all. The classics. I thought I would never have to you know back in the day the classics come from the room all for mall. I went to google show you go go go go. You I think the music is to get out and to be recognized. They need to leave D.C. They need to go around and make people then they will be accepted by record executives because then they can see how they can make some money. Speaking of music can we expect any new music from pitches on her. I mean if someone wants to make a deal you've got the money ready. And that's my response.

Who are you singing with the legendary Orioles working with the legendary Orioles Sandra bears. They do all the stuff. Yes. Still walking around. We're going to celebrate 40 years sitting here. I read an article in the city paper the other day that said that Google is evolving that there are some people now who are as they get older are merging that with a little bit of jazz. What happens is it's been around for 30 years. And Chuck Brown to me is just the essence of The Godfather. And let me just say to the audience Gogol represents to be on top of the beat. You can do any kind of music you can do jazz as Chuck does. You can do rock as you does you can do street R&B as Rastas does. So I think right now the bands are starting to put more elements into the music trying to incorporate more hip hop. And one last time Chuck Brown was on this so we know he was the godfather of music the next time you come back you'll be the grandfather.

Thanks to all of our panelists for joining us most of all. Thanks to you for watching. Stay well. Goodnight