Evening Exchange; Death Penalty, "Stop the Violence" Video

Is the death penalty question on the district ballot the question of morality law enforcement or Home Rule. We have some answers up next evening Xchange. Good evening and welcome to evening exchange I'm Kojo Nandi. Voters in the nation's capital will be forced to choose between life and death for convicted murderers when they go to the polls next week. The question of the death penalty was forced onto the D.C. ballot by members of Congress who see it as the best way to fight the city's growing murder rate. But opponents of the measure say the issue here is not the death penalty itself but the district's right to govern itself without interference from the men and women on Capitol Hill. Joining us to discuss the pros and cons of the measure are the Reverend quasi Thorndale cannon of the Washington Cathedral good to have you here. Reverend Thornhill opposes the death penalty also with us is Dino Drew. Mr. Draghi is the secretary of the Federation of civic Citizens

Associations in Washington. His group represents at least 20 civic organizations. And his group supports the death penalty vote. Right up Paul ruff and the sayer he has written several articles about the crime problems in our area. Welcome to all of you Paul let me start with you before we get into the pros and cons of the death penalty issue. It would appear that much of the city's political establishment much of the religious establishment may have miscalculated how strong the sentiment is in this city for very strong measures maybe like the death penalty because people may be more concerned about crime than the establishment may have thought. I think that there's a real problem with the political establishment in other words the they do represent generally speaking the black liberal political asylum but there's no question about that in Washington D.C. It is an area which many people feel liberals have generally liberalism has failed.

If I could maybe the most dramatic area in which liberalism has failed affected D.C. has been in the more or less control the police are controlled by blacks. Well this institution the mayor's office and has not reduced the crime problem I think it is a real a real challenge to them so one of the things by simply having a death penalty that in itself is a is a direct attack on the traditionally liberal positions of of the black. Establishment almost every single established black organization is on record as opposing the death penalty particularly the NE the NAACP. You have written a long piece in the city paper calling for a comprehensive plan to fight crime violence and murder in the District of Columbia. But people are saying yes comprehensive plans may be fine but we want to send a strong message to those who are liable to commit crimes in the District of Columbia what do you say to those people in their voice appears to be loud and strong.

I absolutely think you have to send a very strong message to criminals and in the District of Columbia I'm not necessarily sure that the death penalty for example is a strong message let me give you a good example what I thought a strong message was the whole year we were putting are second to third or fourth or fifth e of the Say no to drugs. OK. That I think was a strong message. I don't think that a death penalty is anywheres near as strong a message as for example getting 300000 people in District of Columbia to say if I see a crime are reported if I'm call as a witness I'll go. I will not buy stolen goods. OK. I think that that is a strong message to death penalty takes place years later in this case the death penalty is supposed to take place may take place in other states. I don't necessarily think it's a death penalty. I think. It is I think it is very important symbolically. I think it would if it passes it definitely indicate a shift in black community opinion. I think that you could not mess that it would definitely say

that the black community in Washington is overwhelmingly the black community has changed its mind about protecting black criminals from certain cases even the white political system. OK I think it would be fundamentally changed now whether that would send a defective message to criminals that you should change your behavior I think is another is another issue. Mr. Drugg do you feel it will send that kind of message to the criminal community choir. Several reasons. If we look back in history we see before the liberalization of the 19 60s and say the one thousand fifty one thousand forty and before that time when this society took very seriously capital punishment and didn't bat an eyelash twice to pop a criminal murderer on the electric chair and pulled a switch black white yellow green dozen purple doesn't matter. That we did not have very much crime at the crime rates remain very very low. When the liberalisation

began in the 1960s and by the 70s the death penalty was severely impaired by the Supreme Court and by various machinations of the legal profession. We started to see the escalation of crime that we now have here in 1901 the District of Columbia City Council repealed its death penalty law at that time there was something in the order of 200 some murders per hundred thousand population of 200 200 murders per in the whole city in the whole year. Now a decade later we're at twice that rate. We have nearly 500 of them. It seems to me that if you look at history you can see how the death penalty was part of an effective program of crime prevention and deterrence referent for now. You say it didn't work then it won't work now. I guess I'm in the middle for reason here because I disagree somewhat to both. I

think the reaction that we are seeing and hearing from the community is a reaction against crime that exists in our community and the frustration to find some way to stem the tide of crime. This is not a liberal conservative issue the death penalty or a Republican Democrat is a reality versus unreality in terms of the response. The reality is that the death penalty is not a deterrent. To murder Richard Shelby in his own state of Alabama has the fifth highest homicide rate in the nation and he has the death penalty. Thirty six states that there are at least 36 states I believe have the death penalty. That has not been a deterrent to homicides. The extending the false hope to people that by saying we're going to take your life if you take someone else's life is this pandering on the fears of people and saying that somehow this is going to deter

crime and it is proven it is not a deterrent to crime. And I think that it allows us to not look at the reality of the situation and seek to put our energies toward some real efforts to deter the criminal behavior that's taking place in the city. We didn't underestimate people's fears. We are all living in a state of a climate of fear. But we are saying that this is not the way and it gives experience false hope. OK well let's talk about the way you invoke the name of Senator Selby of Alabama. It was after an aide of Senator Shelby's got killed that his interest in the death penalty in the District of Columbia arose and he was able to get the Congress to put it in an appropriations bill. Tag it on an appropriations bill in the District of Columbia. And those who oppose not only the death penalty but specifically the method in which it was done say you should vote against the death penalty not because you are for it or against it but because you are against the manner in which Congress imposed it on the District of Columbia. Paul Ruff is do you think that will make a difference to most people when they get

to the voting booth. Unfortunately yes. Personally I think it's a cop out. I mean this is my is my personal opinion. I think that that angle has led the political establishment of Washington get off the hook. OK. It's a way of them saying we're against it but not really because it's immoral but because of home I think. It is a way of people avoiding the question of how does the black community feel about the death penalty I think it's an effective argument basically gives you two arguments against it and one argument for you know sits on me for it but it doesn't really make the black political establishment have to take responsibility themself for saying how do we feel about the death penalty directly relevant made to let the political leadership in the District of Columbia as you say off the hook but it is a reality that that is how we got this and this to duty. You know that Harry Singleton and others of the citizens to save our streets movement had their own petition going for in locally generated the death penalty.

Why not wait for that. Well if you wait for them it may take years to get to the ballot. Why they think it was a really really confident well they will get it on the ballot I mean if it takes years to get to the ballot then you're suggesting that the citizens of the District of Columbia won't go for it. No. Ok I am a member of D.C.'s Alas yes it's chaired by Mr. Singleton although I'm representing the Federation of Citizens Associations this evening. Sure. In the testimony of D.C.'s alas at the hearing they made very clear that they have had three versions of their petition submitted to the Board of Elections and each one has been litigated very aggressively by the opponents of the death penalty. I would note that we would probably have a citizen initiate a death penalty measure on the ballot but for the fact that in April the opponents of the death penalty went to the federally appointed courts and found some liberal judge who found

some excuse to nix the language on some technical grounds. Well you need to know there's a group of district lawyers today I think has gone to court again to say that this Death Penalty Initiative imposed by Congress is a violation of home rule and that we're likely to get a ruling on that sometime before and it's already been rude. Oh it's a mess and not in their favor. They rejected it. Yes. OK I heard it this morning by this afternoon the situation has changed. Forget what I said the judge has thrown it out. This thing is definitely going to be on the ballot but we're told here by the method by which a very Singleton withdrew the third. Effort to get this position on the ballot and also I believe went to the president as the president to sign off on the congressman. The Congress's imposition of this on the District of Columbia. So he voluntarily withdrew his third opportunity to put this on the ballot suggesting Mr. Drury that that these supporters of the death penalty don't really care how it gets on the ballot once it does get on the ballot is that your organization's position

well the Federation of course is not the same as the D.C. USA west. Sure. We participate in it. But it does not speak for us. Mr. Singleton withdrew it from consideration after or very close to the time that the matter was being approved by Congress that's barely a month ago. Is it true that are you there as opposed to President because I have no knowledge OK. Because obviously a month before the election it's legally impossible even if you have all the signatures when he wasn't even the point of having it through the litigation process yet it's legally impossible to submit them in time to get it to the ballot. Therefore he is putting it aside because if this passes it will render moot the petition the citizen initiated petition. But I got a good mess of the math. I don't want to go away from the matter of procedure because procedure and race are very closely intertwined on this issue.

What we are talking about is the initiative of a white southern senator Democrat often could be confused with the Republicans of the white Southern senators who was not available to show any interest in the city's overall crime problems before an aide of his who also was White got killed in the District of Columbia and of course nobody wants anybody to get killed. But then all of a sudden he develops this interest and the Congress a predominantly white institution imposes this on the leadership that is predominantly black of a city that it has some control over. Therefore there is race involved in how this unfolded in the same Senate voted against the gun bill that my organization instituted to make it a liability attachment to guns being used in criminal activity. So we're getting a double picture here he's voting WANT TO wants us to have the death penalty but votes against this kind of measure that's going to try to get some of the guns off the street. So we had this double picture and I think if we did a

little further investigating we would find that the same person and those like him voted against the appropriation of the money for the District of Columbia twenty six million dollars that would be appropriated for the youth initiative and for the anti crime bills for the District of Columbia. So you're very right when you're talking when you're saying there's a relationship between the statehood issue the morality surrounding the death penalty issue and what is going to be best for the residents of the District of Columbia and how this paternalistic relationship exists and is maintained by certain senators and congressmen who want to left up their own name so they can get credit back in their home states. On the on the backs of the District of Columbia residents I would argue that this is wider than just a disk of Columbia. I think that in general you you will get a feeling in across the country that. If there is a perception and I think this is a legitimate perception that there is a particularly bad

crime problem among let's be honest young black people I mean we live in a violent society in general. That's OK you have to point out who the victims of those crimes are also. Well that's true but I think that's one of the reasons why you have for the first time OK a lot of Warden there I don't know if it's going to pass. OK. I'm not sure I'm not sure that it will. OK but there certainly is are a lot of black people who are being victimized by other black people. Yes. Which I think is one of the reasons why when somebody from the outside says look we've had enough. OK. I mean we take I think a carjacking in government county. OK. Was when you got a lot of people saying OK not only is this bad and we're mad but you are going to bring back down the wrath of the of the of the larger white society on us OK which is something that when the South was an issue in the black community along one of the beaches where you said to people look don't do this. Stay in line. Ok either a legitimate line need to be. Be honest upstanding person is a they will really come down on you OK and B they will come

down on us. OK. I think it's reasonable for people to say look this is a racist society. There are a lot of people who really do want to get you. OK police judges politicians you're an easy target. And that might say to you maybe you'd be did need to be careful what. Say to other people we're going to stop protecting you. OK Mr driven. Well I think here we have to understand something that so far has been missed. The District of Columbia has a collateral set of responsibilities. It exists primarily in law as the seat of national government. It was set up in a certain way to be part of no state to protect the national government from the whims of mobs are we arguing now against statehood or start on the bench no. OK we're we're following up on your point. OK. That the Congress has imposed something. Yes the point I'm trying to make is that the Congress has a

legitimate interest in protecting its members its staff the people who work for the federal government. And goodness knows that's everything from you know a clerk typists all ok I see where you are. How does going to you also know that the Congress has a legitimate and normal procedure of the procedure that involves hearings that involves bills being brought up to address this issue and attacking a measure on to a measure such as the death penalty and to an appropriations bill which is about money is not normally accepted legitimate procedure. I don't disagree with you and the Federation is very clear that it would prefer to have had hearings on the matter. But lots of things get passed including some very good things by being tagged on to other measures. Reference so we can't just turn around and say well just because he tagged it on doesn't mean it isn't good. Some things they go through hearing us are atrocious. Reverend allow me to get back to Paul reference point. Most of the victims of violent crime in

the District of Columbia happen to be black people and they're an ally is the sentiment to the extent that it does exist in the black community for the death penalty what do you say to those victims relatives of victims people who know victims and who share that sentiment. Credit Scott King says who had her husband killed her mother in law were killed. She still does not see the death penalty as a way of solving the crime problem or violent behavior. She would not want those persons who killed her husband killed her mother in law to be executed. Many people feel that way to go to the Doctor King said. To take an eye for an eye and a tooth for two that's going on leave people blind and toothless. It's not going to solve the problem. And to to to hold out to people that this is going to be a solution. This is going to solve the problem. It's going to make it worse in my estimation is not going to make it better because it's going to people even more frustrated they're going to say well we've passed this law and hope that it was going to stop something

is not going to stop anything so what is our next step. Some people would say our next step is to arm ourselves and walk around the street with guns on our hips like the old west. And maybe your group would support that I don't know. But is that the next logical step. And it seems to me that we have to put all of our energies not. On issues like this but on really solving the problems to get Congress to give us the money to work on youth initiatives and further bills that are going to help people to see opportunities and hope for a life one it seems to me that the solutions to these problems are not as dramatic as the problems themselves. You can rest assured that because of television news this obsession with violent crime that people continue to see that on the news the youth the youth in this or any other community measures that are that are developed to solve these problems is never going to be forced on the television news every evening will never have the kind of visibility that the crimes themselves have and

therefore are in a way at a at a at a kind of media disadvantage at a kind of public awareness disadvantage. I don't necessarily think that that's necessarily true. OK. And I think that you could have some very positive things on the news. I mean I mean it could be dramatic. OK. I mean so. Putting out a gun and shooting somebody and being chased for example by 30 citizens would be dramatic. Actually it would it would make people feel better as victims ok if in fact if someone held you up if 30 people chased him or her and they got even if they got away a lot of you would not feel so alone. OK a lot of people would feel not feel so frightened OK. They might feel that people were on their side. That kind of response that doesn't This is it have to be so dramatic. One of things that I have tried to investigate is do you know what would happen to your block if you started screaming at 2:00 in the morning. Would everyone turn on

would turn on a light come to the window and say we're watching you we see you we're going to testify. OK. Even if you got robbed. Would that make you feel safer. Would you get some sympathy. OK. One of the things I think his the people have spoken to victims and have not heard from victims themselves is it would be interesting to know all of the people whose brothers sisters and fathers and sons are murdered. How do they feel. Has anybody actually taken a poll of the victims of violent crime to find out what is important to them is the death penalty as important to them as for example knowing what happens you do have to take a short break now later in our program we will introduce you to Washington teenagers who are fighting the crime problem with a television camera but up next more on the death penalty question and we'll be taking your phone calls on this issue so stay with us. Move on. And. Move. On.

Welcome back in case you're just joining us we're discussing the death penalty that will be on the ballot in the

November 30 election in the District of Columbia we are joined by the Reverend quazi Thor now with the canon of the Washington Cathedral. Do you know Judy is with the Federation of Citizens Associations and Paul Ruffins is a writer who has been writing a great deal on the climate issue in the District of Columbia. Mr. Draghi Let me read from a letter from the Federation of Citizens Associations and signed by you on the death penalty. It says. The Federation sees the death penalty as both an effective instrument of justice and a way to promote safety in the city by freeing up prison space to house rapists and other felons thereby relieving pressures to sight halfway houses and prisons near residential neighborhoods. Now this gives the impression that your Federation sees a great many people in the District of Columbia as prisoners being put on death row thereby freeing up a great number of prison cells so that they can be occupied therefore by freeing up a great number of community halfway houses so that they no longer have to

be in your and my neighborhoods housing rapists and other dangerous criminals that could lead other people to say see these people who support the death penalty haven't mind locking up large numbers of young black males. And again we come to the racial problem you care to respond. I don't see race as a problem here. OK. Because the vast majority of the victims of the crime are also African-American. I come from an ethnic group the Italian Americans which at one point in American history was in a similar situation. We were perceived partly correctly partly incorrectly as being a criminal element. And when the dominant society told us in no uncertain terms that this kind of criminal behavior which we associate with the mafia and so on so forth will not be tolerated and took some of the worst examples of this kind of criminal

and put that and put them on the death chair and got rid of them. It did two things. It sent a disciplinary message to the rest of the community and it eliminated from the community some of the worst role model examples for the new generation of Italian Americans. And I discussed this with other Italian Americans as well. And one of them said to me the only thing they did wrong is they didn't put enough on the electric chair. I think the I think we make a mistake to read into this a racial issue because the victims are African-Americans too. Most of the people on death row African-Americans most of the people on death row and educated and poor people cannot afford to get lawyers which might have meant that they might not have been convicted. At least 23 people who were convicted of murder and put on death row and

executed were found to be innocent later on. So I mean you have. Race is an issue here. I mean I think we can ignore that as being a very real fact. And in the District of Columbia it's got to be a concern about black people because most of the residents of the District of Columbia black people Paula. Race is an issue in another way. If you listen to Mr. Jodi's argument about Italian-Americans somebody would likely to say we understand but Italian Americans were immigrants to this country. These black people who you now say are committing most of your violent crimes and homicides are these descendants of the same people who were brought to slaves are these descendants of the same people who were lynched. Are these descendants of the same people who were discriminated against and now they're the biggest violent criminals. Is there possibly any connection here. Are these people. Are these people simply people who have no values and this a lack of values we don't know where it came from. But it's not our job to correct that it's just our job to keep the streets safe. Well firstly I think there are some interesting parallels between the questions of of of

Italian Americans and African-Americans being seen as a criminal group. There's a fantastic piece in the York Times a couple of weeks ago that was a quote from the 1940s judge and he said I don't understand these people. They go to jail their friends are in jail. They get out of jail people have parties OK they wear loud clothes. Girls love them. OK. You would have sworn it's that it was Washington D.C. the crack guys. OK this call this whole they carry guns for fun to shoot people casually. Yes. I think what is very current similar though is it is the circling the wagons of an ethnic group. OK. When they feel they're under attack from the outside. And I think one of the fundamental issues with not just the death penalty because it's one of these are is a very small percentage of the crimes even the killings would actually because the death penalty murders. OK. If you and I get into an argument and I shoot you OK in many cases if we're not arguing over drugs that's not a death penalty crime. And I think that people need to know this that a lot of the killings in the black community

are husbands killing their wives. People killing their friends ok that aren't even first degree murders. So when you look at let's just say Of the 500 murders in the district. I'm not even sure that even a third of them would be considered formal death penalty. OK. Case it has to do with a lot of things if you can if you kill a police officer have you heard about your government employee. OK so we have to do with a drug transaction so we have to realize a lot of the killings. I've even got a come under that. We've got to go to the phones but there's one other issue that has to be discussed here and that is that this statute as voted out by the Congress supposedly does not exclude mentally retarded persons or juveniles from the death penalty and most of the statutes in the 30 some states that have the death penalties at least allow those exclusion including the federal statute including the federal statute. Why. Why the more draconian measure for the district. Well it's my understanding that most of the state's statutes do not exclude those categories. But I would suggest to you that there is a good reason for more

draconian here particularly as regards to you the District of Columbia. According to the testimony presented before the city council on Saturday has a murder rate nine times that of the national average. In the District of Columbia we have juveniles killing all the juveniles over drugs. This is not Kansas or Arkansas where things are a little tame. This is the city. And if we were to count ourselves as a state with the highest murder rate in the nation and therefore we have to be a little more severe because we have a bigger problem that we have to deter and punish and deal with. Now there are two issues here. The other one is the mentally retarded. What the initiative that's on the ballot States is that that is a mitigating factor. At which the jury can look

we've got to remember something here. The one thing the Congress put in is that only a jury can impose the death penalty and the jury can only impose the death penalty if the aggregate of aggravating factors outweigh the mitigating factors. OK. And that the aggravating factors are agreed to unanimously by the 12 person reference for now then we've got to go to the phones that a prosecutor appointed by the president will determine whether he wants to present this case as a death penalty case. A judge appointed by the president will be sitting on the bench to oversee the case. And those persons who are convicted if they are convicted and the death penalty is put in place will be farmed out to other states for the death penalty to be carried out. So we can visualize young black men on trains going to states that have gas chambers have Gallo's that have injections and that that's not an image that I think we want to see. We're talking about is too much

killing going on. But then we're going to turn around and say it's OK for the state to do more killing of young black men. Got to get to the telephone it's your turn Caller Thank you for waiting you're on the air go ahead please. Yeah thank you can even gentleman I just. A couple quick points. First was interesting that Congress will try to impose things like a no knock knock on the death penalty on D.C. But when D.C. residents come up with a strict liability the gun control law Congress vetoes it but gone back to Mr. Drew to comment about the tell us first of all Italians were never legislated against in this country. My people were that's a very distinct difference. And by the way there is no green the purple people. And I disagree with the lower crime statistics in the 60s. What you had was under reported crime statistics most crimes against women in particular crimes against minorities particularly blacks women report it because nobody cared. And as far as an explosion of deaths in D.C. and 1981 you had credit. Cocaine the relative

that was shipped in from outside the black community and caused a lot of death in the structure that we see. So you see all these factors come from outside the community. Yet you want to execute people within the community just like you gave Noriega for you but your gay rights women's rights without parole. It's always an issue all right and always will be an issue right. OK thank you very much Mr. Drew do you let me put that in the form of a question what do you say to people like the gentleman who just called who say all of you people who want the death penalty don't seem to think you have any responsibility at all for any of the other social problems that beset the city once your streets are safe than these other people who are committing all these crimes and in the communities they come from is not your business. I don't see a link between so-called social problems and crime. And I don't agree that the statistics particularly as relates to murder and particularly outside of the Southern states where a great many injustices did occur before the civil rights and accidents

of the 1980s but in the non southern states where you didn't have Jim Crow laws and all of this stuff if you look at the murder rates there I don't think that the murder statistics are under reported rape yes maybe but certainly not murder. I mean it's sort of hard to hide you know that someone has been killed. And I just don't see all these so-called social problems as being at the root of crime because goodness knows in the 1950s poverty was much worse in the 1950s oppression was much worse. And yet you didn't see the kind of crime we have now anybody else before I go back to the telephone just just on a statistical thing. In fact what most of them realize is that violent crime in America went down between like nine hundred seventy one thousand eighty five which is also when a lot people banned the death penalty. I think the death penalty for Unfortunately follows crime. I mean doesn't it. I mean maybe they got rid of the death penalties because crime was down. But in fact violent I think in terms of the deaths of young black men it's

only in 1985 with that rate went up as high as it was in 1900. And some people would say that that coincided in the District of Columbia with the entry of crack cocaine into the Washington area it was around 1985 in 1990 I think. I think there's no doubt that it started with with the crack wars. And then I think once a lot of people started carrying guns that everyone thought everybody else had a gun and you got it kind of arms race after that. We're the only western nation that has the death penalty still in place. The only other industrialized nations in the world are South Africa and the Soviet Union back to the telephone call and they're trying Go ahead please. And I have done pretty good. There is angst because I don't think that execution will deter the criminal here. For one thing if you think about it the guy with the gun the

sound the drug seizes on Nixon and I feel that the law is being quiet in order to instill fear but because of fear and the wrong people the people who want to help are the people that you're trying to say stop the killing or deter the criminals they are not going to be affected because contrary to believe when I go there. He has an I want to take it up right. I don't know the motive for the crime of Wrath Harbor to me. We were not going to have you know how tough that was of the crime. When you get back to Cuba OK thank you allow me to take another telephone call because we're backed up here on our telephone calls and I know people want to contribute so ask our panelists to lay low for a while and go back to the telephone. Go ahead caller. Yes that three quick points to make. OK. One of them pretty much repeat what colleges

say that WE DID IT MOST PEOPLE GET OFF selling drugs and committing crimes. Already feel as though it is five drugs because they're already feeling as though their lives forfeit. Second point I had to make is that as far as I know nationwide when you kill a white person you're more likely to get the death penalty in if you kill a BlackBerry. OK. That need to be addressed specially in the District of Columbia with most of us black. The very point I had to make is Mr. Truly I think need to. Look at the facts. I believe that Sadie definitely had an impact on its own people and a lot of people acting just from them. OK thank you very much any quick comments before we get back to the family. Economics is a direct relationship to criminal behavior and criminal activity I don't know why you can think possibly there's no relationship to that. And for people who are

caught in a cycle of drugs or crime and violence that see no opportunities to move within a society who have lived in a system in which they have received no respect they are not going to be deterred by someone saying if you kill somebody we're going to take your life. Mr. JOHNSON I have no sense of value of life in the first place. The argument that opponents of the death penalty make in that regard is there are no rich people on death row anywhere in America. Not one millionaire not one half a millionaire on death row anywhere in America. No relationship between economics and violent crime. Well I would point out something to you then. Obviously the wealthy do not tend to commit murder which is the main way you get on death roll. When the same kind of frequency that the non-wealthy do because we consent but we know that the wealthy commit murder. We're not talking frequency here you don't get death row by how frequently you commit murder you get on death row by committing murder right.

OK but I'm just saying that that's not proportionately as many by the same token there aren't as many wealthy people in the in the United States as there are poor people. Therefore you're talking about a very very small number of instances or potential exposure if you use a kind of term a statistician would use for the wealthy now. None none is surprising however I would suggest something to you. OK that many of the civil liberties provisions that have been built into our laws in the past quarter century which allow the lower income people. We're running out of time to get on a little faster to get off the hook. Also provisions which the wealthy are even more adept at exploiting. So we got to close those loopholes back to the telephone call it's you go ahead please. Because what are you doing is really good I mean it's a good thing. First off let's look at this

thing from the standpoint of the gun comment coming from within one of the comics. If if if if our friends in Washington DC. But no one has seriously looked at the point that serious a serious amount of percentage of the crimes that are committed and Washington D.C. deteriorate directly as a result of more strict gun controls on the guns coming in and out of Washington DC. So basically my statement here is that if you have the same type on the mag gun control format and the two majority white Commonwealth have a sad history history then we wouldn't have the possibility of just crime rate in United States. You know flip flip flopper to the Avocet here they're citizens of Washington DC the opportunity to personally and be trained into usage

say hang gun give them a feeling of self purpose self self. Because the bottom line to me here's our government I think that's the main reason why the thing is I'm about from the start. OK thank you for your time. We're running out of time anybody want to comment on the same day that we received word that Congress was going to impose this death penalty on the residents of the District of Columbia in that same paper they reported that Congress passed a bill for two point one billion dollars to build a space station called freedom. Well we're about out of time here and I'm not an expert on the death penalty on crime I do know a little bit about the media when I came to Washington in 1969. There were three or four armed bank robberies in Washington every day you didn't see them on television you had to open the crime pages of The Washington Post inside to see them but they were occurring. They were armed and they took place every day several of them. The fact is that when you turn on the television news in the evening in those days you saw what happened in the city council the Supreme Court. What

happened in the Congress what people felt had the greatest effect on your lives now that we see crime on television news every day. I think we are misled into believing that what has the greatest impact on the quality of life in Washington is the crime rate. I think that whether people vote for or against the death penalty they should vote but it won't make a difference in the quality of life in the District of Columbia next up. How Washington is trying to stop the violence. Welcome back there's a saying that goes if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem now

meet people who are truly part of the solution. You decide stop the violence as a five minute music video produced written and directed by Washington area teenagers. Some of the crew members produces an act as a real life black Hispanic and a few skinhead gang members meet two of the produces. We are talking about Aaron Thompson who was a grip on this project and l of them are new in this is that correct. We pronounce who was a producer on this project also. Joining us is the main adult co-ordinator of this project William Marshall is an independent documentary producer well known around Washington. And what made you come up with this idea. Looking for a project that would be that would communicate what was going on this summer in urban areas and I talk with these books about this in March and say something a good idea but we're more interested in something like straight talk 8:44 which we produced last year and when they asked when on an airplane I said Let's listen to this project I think it's important and how did you go about

doing the project put together since we program children teens who are in the mayor's summer program and put them in two weeks of pre-production two weeks of production to supposed production just like we do in television. And they did everything that you do in television and produced we put them in producers groups writers groups directors groups cameramen groups it was the only student receive a production credit because she pulled the Hispanics back together and she really learned what it takes to be a producer and worked as a grip on around the set and worked with profit and oh yeah they got a chance to do real work we did real work. That's the point that's really good. If you're wondering what this work looks like let us now take a short look at the public service announcement that will make its debut right here W.H. on MTV on Saturday night at 6:55. Full bit.

The by when. You do. What for thing there was a five minute video and three three yes three public service announcements like gangs by which mostly on BT will be all BT again in his banks by which it is most in CA and the skin has by which he has an MTV and all three of them ere right here on the beach

and television. Well Tamara how did you get involved with this project. Well it was a day of orientation up in DC DC always and Mr. Marshall was who clued in people and I heard I heard about working with camera and a person how old are you. I'm 17. OK. Oh a person who loves to work with camera but I don't really like being in front of the camera you know. But because I could thank you. You know I love it's like something that really attracts me to had you. It involved the television camera work before still photography. Well I have family interested in still photography. But when you had cameras you decided that you get involved. Yeah because it's like in the same field that's why did it turn out to be what you thought it would be like or was it more difficult was it more enjoyable was it more fun. Actually it was it was more fun because I thought I thought it would be something like oh like more

people like me was there they gave me a they gave us paperwork also right. But I thought it was like going to be you know like you know the producers the adults to everything and then the children does or the teenagers just watch you know it was a great experience for me. Well Demar came into the class who wanted to be a still photographer we have jobs we have and we were working with him life and Newsweek covers. And as she got into the projects of the program she can change her mind she became a producer. She's very generous and hopefully will get a chance to talk a little more about the production experience but you know 100 you get involved. You look like what. Well yeah you know you're already effected. Yes I do get involved the same way like she was if you couldn't people for the show June thing powerless and stuff and I thought it was interesting. So when did you know about teen violence before you got involved with this. Had you experienced any of it. And experienced any of it you know he was one of the few because we the production crew asked the

class one day who was involved or had any access or had seen no been it's just been about 18 bombs and just about 90 percent of cancers that LMR tell us about the production part of your responsibilities you put together the Hispanic PSA What did that involve doing well that involved doing well I got to like people life. Some of my friends I called up you know either the blues or this guy might like my phone book and call them out and but it had to mean interacting with gang members. Oh of course but I and also I I also you know last minute drama drama coach Yeah. Oh well the I don't know and it was also the funniest part I mean the most interesting part. Well it's also the skinheads. Yes it was because. Heads the ones out there that Mr. Marshall in the race got there they didn't show up at the last moment that's when I go to see the first kid and I go recruiting for school at first we went

down to Dubai and then and then I did. We decided to go down to Georgia and we found like five or six of them just hanging out there you know talking to some guys that we had shot with a still photographer a week before we went undercover into some of the primaries in the city. Well there was also another incident where the last minute skinheads that you recruited didn't want to do something or wanted to do something that you didn't want them. Yeah the writers we came with an idea that we want them to draw a swastika and they would dissolve into the shot and then come out of it and it would be a peace sign. You know just to kind of show that these guys weren't racing they said they don't do that at all. They don't do it. They weren't racist skinheads they just like the culture they just like the music they just like the look. OK so they were still again there was still a group of guys who have got to believe in the skinhead kind of look at that point though they became actors and insightful actors and writers and producers and. They didn't want to draw so much because they do have any experiences with the skinheads at all.

Did you see them. Yes I say no. How did you feel when you see that you get scared. These are not people you run into in our communities every day on the street. Did you feel any fear at all. Not really. You feel anger. Did you feel tomorrow when you had to approach these skinheads did you feel any apprehensions about how I was saying to myself you know I can't believe I'm doing is right and you know when it when I get up to them I said to just over people and you know I felt that there was a lot of tension when we arrived because it's like skinheads you know in the neighborhood where the majority of blacks and Hispanics and it's like well we arrived everybody turned their heads. You know you'll see that the documentary that we're in production for right now I actually have a tomorrow on film. Can she get into a common argument one of the real gangs on the part about the skin if you were to know why they were there why they would know yeah she's talking to him. Very very brave. Iran after this what do you want to do you've been a grip on a

public service announcement that a video does this inspire you to want to do anything more as regards television. Yes and that of yes and no. Yes because the no part was I was first I was anxious but that's why all the edits I will tell you like the producer or you liked the production part of it how about being in front of the camera would you like that. Another young man who doesn't want my job. Thanks a lot Aaron. Thank you very much for joining us tomorrow. And Bill we're out of time but you know we'll be seeing you again we always do. Don't miss. You decide stop the violence Saturday night at 6:55. And again on Sunday evening at 5 25 we're going to take a short break and then we'll be right back. That's our show for tonight our thanks to all of our guests and of course to you for joining us.

All of this week we're going to bring you a close up look at the issues and candidates you will find on your ballots next Tuesday. Tomorrow we will talk with Maryland congressional candidate Michele Dyson and explore the pros and cons of the Maryland abortion question. We are bringing you this information so that you can be well informed when you go to pull that lever. All we ask is that you exercise your right as a citizen and get out to the polls on Tuesday from all of us here all of you good night. And. Evening exchange depends on your contributions. Please send your donation to MTV. Twenty two twenty two fourth Street Northwest Washington D.C. 2 0 0 5 9.