Here & Now; 113

Support of Here and Now is made possible in part by Strong Financial. Helping investors build and manage wealth for over 25 years, Strong Financial, helping you build a strong portfolio. I'm Frederica Private, welcome to Here and Now. First off tonight, a lawsuit filed this week over Governor Doyle's first Indian gaming compacts, and there's plenty of other budget buzz to talk about this week. Hundreds of UW system students swarmed the Capitol Thursday, protesting possible cuts on campus.

We talk with two of those student leaders. Four-year-old kindergarten programs will go away, a representative Glenn growthman has his way. Not if state school superintendent Libby Burmester has hers, they're both here tonight, but the big budget drama continues to be the soap opera known as, as the compacts turn. This week, Republican leaders hired a constitutional attorney, who says the states deal with the Potawatomi is illegal. That's retired UW law school professor Gordon Baldwin. Democratic state representative John Richards, also an attorney, says it's easy to argue that the compact does pass constitutional muster. He's in Milwaukee, thanks to both of you for being here tonight. Now the second line in your brief supporting this petition, Professor Baldwin, to the Supreme Court is that the governor's action makes Wisconsin a mere of Las Vegas. What do you mean by that? Well, there are several provisions in the compact that extend the interests of tribes in carrying on gambling by increasing the number of machines that can be used at various places, and by also listing a number of games that, here to four, have not been permitted

under previous compacts. So it is the position that we're taking in our brief that these are decisions that the legislature of Wisconsin should take, not simply an action by the governor alone. And we've asked the Wisconsin Supreme Court to take original jurisdiction. Now there's nothing novel about the Supreme Court of Wisconsin taking original jurisdiction when the governor is challenged. They took original jurisdiction in eight cases in which the governor's actions under the partial veto amendment were challenged, and seven of the eight cases, the governor won. This time I think we hope that the Supreme Court of Wisconsin will rule for the legislature. And you want specifically the Supreme Court to do what? We want the Supreme Court to rule that the governor's actions invade the province of the Wisconsin legislature, and hence the provisions in the 2003 compact, which is the only one that's been signed so far, should receive the impromoture of the Wisconsin legislature.

These should be joint decisions and not decisions of the governor alone. Let's get back to this idea of the expanding the scope of gambling within this compact. It tick off the games that are called for in this compact that you think are unconstitutional. Well, these are the games that are listed in the 1993 amendments to the Wisconsin Constitution, there are the legislature following a considerable debate, and the people of Wisconsin, after considerable discussion, listed a number of games, Black Jack, I think, is among them, Roulette, and so forth. But the compacts go beyond this. They state that if there are any games within jurisdiction within 75 miles of the Wisconsin border, then the Potawatomi tribe may offer those games in its casino. It's obviously designed to prevent a competitive advantage in, for a casino's perhaps in Illinois or Iowa or Minnesota, or perhaps even Canada.

Let's go to John Richards, so. Well, I think this is completely political, very first line of the brief that was filed in the States of Supreme Court says that the governor is trying to make Wisconsin into many Las Vegas under authority that he didn't have, well, that's plainly not true. There's a statute that both John Gard and Mary Pans are voted for and supported for the last 12 years on a Republican governor that gives the governor the authority to do just that. And the Republicans authorized $60,000 to pay Gordon Baldwin's fees to bring this lawsuit at a time when we're having an extraordinary financial crisis in the state. And I just think it shows very, very poor judgment to bring this suit at this time. A couple of years ago, Mary Panser said it shows poor judgment to spend tax payer dollars on lawsuits when you're unable to convince your legislative colleagues to change the law. I don't know if I would make a sweeping statement like that in all cases, but at a time of real financial crisis to set a time when we're trying to use these compacts to fill a $230

million whole in our budget that will help pay for education and health care and police and fire services, I really question if this is the right time to bring this. Now on to a couple of the substantive claims that Professor Baldwin talked about. He talks about the constitutional amendments that were passed a few years back. That issue is currently being litigated in the case of Derriela and Greyhom park versus Doyle. So far, the governor's won and it's now being heard in the court of appeals. The trial judge in that case completely disagrees with Professor Baldwin's assessment of how these amendments relate to the games that can be played in our casinos. In fact, the trial judge said very clearly that those amendments have nothing to do with Indian gaming. So let me just jump in here if I might and ask Gordon Baldwin on that fair point. What does the Derriela case do to yours or say about yours?

I look very carefully at the Derriela and pleadings before I took this on. Derriela is basically challenging specific provisions in existing compacts as well as peripherally the 2003 which came in after Judge Calloway's decision. And it's quite correct. Judge Calloway did not find the 1993 amendments at all persuasive and it is in the court of appeals. But our claim is simply resting on the proposition that the legislature should have a role in deciding whether or not sovereign immunity is lifted. Whether or not a compact can appropriate state funds as the 2003 compact does. And any specific provision ought to be a product of an accommodation between the legislature and the governor. Now I was hired to bring a legal case. I have no partisan interest in this whatsoever.

I have no claim that the governor did not act in good faith. He had a job to do and he did it. And we think that you cannot buy a violation of the Constitution. 14.035 which he relies upon does not authorize a violation of constitutional power. And we think the governor in the 2003 compact went a little bit beyond the constitutional authority of the governor. Let's go back to John Richards when he said he was hired as a constitutional lawyer and not for any political partisan reason. I saw you laughing. Well sure. I mean this was a political setup. We met in the joint committee on legislative organization kind of in a surprise move to authorize the payment of fees to Professor Baldwin to bring this suit. The very next day a 23 page brief shows up on the steps of the state supreme court. Now this was politically wired all the way. It's a political lawsuit.

And what they're trying to do is challenge the governor's authority under a statute that the Republicans not only voted for but have been supporting over the last 12 years. Yeah, you're making something of a mistoppel argument. Actually, I've been working on this case for the last three weeks. I was researching at well getting off the slopes of all to Utah and I find it absolutely fascinating as I say. I was hired to present a legal case on behalf of the legislature. The partisan nature is perfectly clear but I don't think the partisan nature should have anything to do with the merits. I expect there's nothing novel about a dispute between the legislature and an executive. Every single constitution invites that problem. Are you going to win this case? Oh, good heavens. If I could predict what the courts would do, I would be an awful lot richer than I am. And incidentally, I will have to account for every nickel of it. It was up to $62,000 and I have hired the law firm of Murphy and Desmond of which I was of counsel for about a decade.

And I know the firm very well. We could not have produced that brief in the two days that we had to prepare it. All right. John Richards. I'm wondering also, I know people who have brought cases that look at the constitutionality between the executive versus the legislature and they've done them pro bono. They've done them for free. You know what, John Richards? Professor Baldwin will do this case for free in the interest of the public good. It may turn out to that. I'll account for every nickel I tell you. All right. John Richards and Milwaukee, thanks very much. Gordon Baldwin. Now, in a few moments, we take up another budget matter that's up in the air and that is funding for four-year-old kindergarten programs. A state budget review task force has recommended eliminating kindergarten programs for four-year

olds in Wisconsin. Now, proponents say the cuts are needed to balance the state budget. They also say four-year-old preschool prep can happen for free at home. Educators, including the state superintendent of public instruction, believe scrapping kindergarten for four-year-olds would be a very bad idea. Elizabeth Bermaster, the state school superintendent, is here as is Republican representative Glenn Grossman. He is the chair of the task force that supports the cut and he joins us in Milwaukee, thanks to both of you for being here. Thank you. You know, Representative Grossman, I will begin with you and ask how much money this scrapping of the four-year-old kindergarten might save the state? Well, first of all, I have to correct you. The chair of that task force was representative Gunderson from Waterford, but I'm related to him. Sorry. We elevated you. It would save about $47 million a year for the state and about $27 million a year for the property tax payers based on last year's budget.

Overall, it costs $74 million a year and in this budget, it's not clear yet how it's going to be broken down between the state and local. And then you're not a good use of that kind of money. Oh, it's a bad idea for a variety of reasons. It's not effective, it erodes the authority of the parents. Because you're suggesting that these kids could get this at home? Oh, absolutely. Well, first of all, studies show that well, you can teach a four-year-old to read. By the time the kids are seven or eight years old, it doesn't matter whether they first learned to read when they were four or five or six. So you're not improving educationally, but on the other hand, the parents are having less influence in the way they raise their children. So you lessen the impact of the parents and you're not getting an educational benefit. So you probably wouldn't want to pay for this, whether or not we had all the money in the world. Oh, absolutely. I'd fight it regardless.

The fact that we're broke just makes it that clear that we shouldn't continue down this path. These have to be fighting words to you. Well, first of all, whether a local school district offers four-year-old kindergarten is a matter of local control. And over 160 school districts in the state have made that choice. And parents in their districts have the opportunity to choose if their children will attend four-year-old kindergarten or not. It's not a mandatory program. But the research confirms what parents and people who've worked with young children have long understood through experience, that those early learning experiences and the quality of those experiences lay the foundation and really shape all future academic, emotional and social learning for our children. You're right. Those are words that, really, I don't believe the parents and citizens of our state embrace because there's a clear understanding of the importance of four-year-old kindergarten in closing the gap in achievement between economically disadvantaged children and their

peers. And how it costs effective, it truly is. Every dollar we invest in early learning pays, saves us seven in the long run. Well, that may be true, but it could this not be one of those heartbreakers that the governor is having to let go of? I know he feels strongly about maintaining this kind of spending, but I'm not sure that Republicans like Glenn Growthman feel the same. And so this might end up being one of those heartbreakers. Well, I don't believe so. The governor's budget balances the budget with education as a top priority. And it allows local school districts the opportunity, again, if they so choose, it's an issue of local control, to then receive partial membership aid from the state. And it again would be one of the most short-sighted things we could do if we were to turn our backs on what we know research has proven and parents are asking for in their communities the sound foundation of an opportunity for children, whatever the economic background

of their parents have the opportunity to really have a strong start in readiness for school. One more question to you, and then we'll get back to Representative Growthman. But is this such a big deal to the governor that if it came through as part of a package and it was eliminated, would he veto this in some way? Well, I believe that the governor, as certainly I have heard, as we've traveled throughout our state and visited over 250 schools, as I told you, half four-year-old kindergarten programs, I believe that the governor has heard the same thing that I have. Parents understand that this is a cost-effective research-based way of really intervening early in the lives of children so that we can close that gap in a achievement which has to be the top priority of our state. What do you think about that, Representative Growthman? Well, first of all, the studies show it's not effective at all. Georgia was the first state to go to Universal Four-Year-Old Kindergarten six years ago and

the studies show no improvement at all. Actually, what's going on here is the teacher's union is always looking for ways to get more jobs. I bet if you ask Liz Burmister, she agrees with a lot of other people, the educational establishment, who as soon as they get four-year-old Kindergarten will want three-year-old Kindergarten as well, saying once again that having children being taken care of by the government will be superior to having children taken care of by their own parents. The studies show that's not true, it didn't work in Georgia, it didn't work in Louisiana, and the studies with regard to Head Start, which is another preschool program that's been around for 30 years, show that program didn't work either. Parents are the first and the most important teachers of their children, but as we know, many parents are both wage earners in their families, and we have single parent families where they have the same dreams for their children to have quality early learning experiences

and communities throughout our state have developed community-based approaches, working with Head Start, working with both private caregivers and with businesses to really find what's going to work to ensure that our most precious research, precious resource, our youngest children, their needs are met, and it's working in Wisconsin. Superintendent Burmister and Glenn Growthman in Milwaukee will leave it there, thanks very much to both of you for being here. Now we are going to place some musical chairs now, and when we return, introduce you to two grown-up students, UW System students who are doing a little boning up on the state budget themselves. Hundreds of UW students from across the state protested at the state Capitol Thursday.

The students are concerned about state budget cuts. The governor proposes a $250 million cut to the university and proposes making up $150 million of it with tuition hikes. John Stevens is the president of the UW Plapville Student Senate. Beth Richland is president of the UW-Stevens Point, student government and thanks to both of you for being here. Beth, I understand you had some really crummy weather trying to get here. It is really horrible. I'll tell you. Don't drive. You're here to tell everyone that you're here not to drive, but you also have some very big concerns about this budget cut. Obviously, Beth, let's ask you first, describe for me what the reaction is to these tuition hikes on campus. What's Stephen's point? Students are pretty nervous in Stephen's point. We had a shocker early on in the year with the budget lapse governor dual called for an immediate cut.

And right away, the students started to see services start to lack long lines of computer labs. This year, during registration, students had to go back three or four times. They already started cutting classes. If professors retire halfway through the year, you know, we can't hire those positions right now because we're unsure of the budget. So the students are very aware right now what the budget cuts are going to lead to. It's only going to get worse. And they're starting to prepare for it. You're a senior, is that right? And so you've had this kind of progression over four years or possibly more. Have you seen progressive cuts and what, you know, the effect of those? I've seen my tuition go up every year. Yeah. I haven't seen the classes get any better. Personally in my department as well, we had the tuition freeze. I mean, the hiring freeze and we lost two professors. So we went through the year without six classes this semester alone, and it hit us last semester. So you feel it first and hard.

John, now you're at Plattville. Correct. And, you know, at this rally yesterday, I heard students saying, this is not fair. We did not create this deficit and yet we are paying for it. Is that the sense on campus? Absolutely. UW System makes up about 9% of the state's budget. And with Governor Doyle's proposal, 38% of the cuts are coming from UW System's budget. So it's not very proportional. And do you see the same kinds of effects that Beth does on campus in terms of longer lines, not being able to get classes you want? We've been pretty lucky at Plattville. The effects this far have not been that overwhelming. But we're not quite sure what's to come, obviously the chance or assured us that, you know, he's going to do his best to maintain the quality of education that we're receiving. Now, the tuition hikes are capped at about 18% increase. And that represents, I understand, about $700 per year for two semesters for the four year colleges.

Is that about right? Or for your comprehensive, it would be $500 a year and it would be 750 at, I believe, at Madison and Milwaukee. What they're saying is that, you know, that, okay, that's an increase and nobody likes to pay, you know, that much more money. And yet we're still pretty competitive and pretty low cost tuition-wise. Is that, I mean, can you understand that argument? That argument though is an inclusive of the $100 million on top of those tuition increases that would be taken from our base budget in the UW System. And that, you know, is essentially the argument, we're going to pay more and get less. The $250, it's a difficult amount to swallow, but you understand what we're trying to get at the midpoint, you understand these arguments and things. But no one ever includes the fact that we're still going to be cut $100 million on top of that tuition increase. Well, would you be willing to take higher tuition increases if it meant, you know, making up for some of that other $100 million that they have to cut out of programs? Students at Platteville are very committed to maintaining access as well as quality

in our education. And what it comes down to, we're already looking at, in four semesters, our tuition will be about $1,000 greater than what it is now. And that's a lot. That's a lot of money. I know that students went around to members of the joint finance in the capital yesterday giving petitions and information. Are legislators being responsive to your concerns? I sat down with Steve Freeze yesterday at the capital and, you know, we let him know how concerned we are about the situation. However, it's such a grim situation at the capital as far as the state budget goes that he wasn't able to promise us a whole lot. So that's one example overall. I think it's definitely going to be an uphill battle to maintain, you know, and the quality and access education in Wisconsin. All right. Thanks to both of you for coming and especially you deserve a battle pay if we offered such a thing to give you to the storm. Appreciate it.

Beth Richland and John Stevens. And we want to close our program this evening with a profile of another college aged Wisconsinite. Tonight is a milestone of sorts for 22 year old Josh Rice of Manitouac. He's wrapping up his second week of basic training in the Army and has his eye set on a spot in the 82nd Airborne Division. His Jerry Huffman reports Josh says he joined the Army as a pathway to peace. Even when he was in high school, Josh Rice knew he wanted to be a soldier. His father was career military and now it is the son's turn. Rice made the decision to enlist long before phrases like shock and awe became part of the national dialogue. Five to six hours a day of training has sharpened both the mind and the body. A key to martial arts is ignoring pain. It is harder to ignore the headlines. In the final days before her son left for what could be his war, Maureen Rice watches

the news, hoping it could all be over soon, but still preparing to say goodbye. Would it be less hard if there wasn't a war going on right now? No. No. Really? No. Sitting in your living room and doing nothing isn't going to make any difference. So I'd rather see him go out and do what he's happy doing and feels good about doing and feels like he needs to do as opposed to doing nothing. There are two sides to Josh Rice, the kid who will miss his cat and the young man who is ready for war. I truly believe in peace, but I think maybe the answer you're looking for is that I do believe that the price for peace is ultimately war is ending the bad guy's life because you can take that bad guy and you can recondition him all you want to but they're still going to be evil at heart.

In this war, polls show support for the president's plan to invade Iraq, but millions of taken to the streets marching for both peace and against the war. As Josh Rice shows his path to peace by joining the army, others take a path, rice supports, but questions. Why does this have to happen because of one man? As I said, they're entitled to it, but I wish they would see some of these things and actually hear it and understand it. You can hear things, but you might not understand it. Maybe it needs to be chewed up a little bit more for them. There are many cliches about what a soldier does on his last weekend as a civilian, but rarely does it include going back to your grade school. Walking the halls of his grade school was like reaching back for Josh. To a time when he thought Motley crew was cool and the new kids on the block were lame.

The kids in this classroom may not understand what a war is, but they know one of their own is going somewhere scary. And you write, dear soldier, rice, hi, you probably don't know me, but I am Abby. I've never been alive for a war, but I'll tell you one thing, you're a heck of a lot braver than me. We all respect you for your fighting for our country. There is a blue star on Mrs. O'Connell's bulletin board to mark where rice will train for the next several weeks. A reminder to these fourth graders, their words touched a former fourth grader on one of the most important days of his life. Take care, Josh. All right, Josh, we're at him, rice, do solemnly swear, do solemnly swear, that I will support and defend, that I will support and defend. Eleven days ago, rice took the enlistment oath for the final time. He will learn about $1,300 a month, and if all goes well, he will be able to call himself a soldier before the spring is over.

Both rice's mom and dad were there because there is value, both for the military and the recruit in knowing this is a family commitment. A commitment to doing what is one young man's definition of making a difference. Up under the U.S. Army, thank you, sir. Four on one single foul line at the front control that's with a former pitch ID card in your right hand. There will be the challenge of learning the army way of doing things, but this has been Josh Rice's dream for many years. It's also a time when many parents across Wisconsin feel the pull of both fear and pride. A final hug, a final moment of quiet, as yet another generation faces the challenge of dealing with war. Jerry Huffman reporting, that's here and now for this first Friday in April. A good luck this weekend to Marquette University Wisconsin's contribution to the final four. We hope to see you next Friday night.

I'm Frederica Freiberg. Have a great weekend.