The Wisconsin Magazine; 1405

The Wisconsin Magazine for November 6 presented by the public television stations of Wisconsin. On tonight's edition, international trade, Wisconsin's bid for the overseas market. [music] We have to learn to compete not only with Michigan, but the high tech states, the sun belt states, but also the far eastern countries and the European countries. [music] Also tonight, Avoka Prairie, returning to Wisconsin's roots. It's the only place in southern Wisconsin that I'm aware of where you can stand out here and you seeing all natural landscaping as far as you can see here. And tonight's closer look: our aging society. Who will support tomorrow's retirees? By the year 2010, there will be two workers for every one retiree. So there has been a dramatic. alteration because of the aging of society.

Reporting from Madison, Dave Iverson. Good evening. Welcome to another Wisconsin Magazine broadcast. We are live across the state network tonight and we'll take your phone calls later on in the hour, when our focus turns to the topic of racism. You'll be able to call in with your comments on that topic. We'll give you the number in just a little bit. Our regular one minute diary of the news from around the state begins tonight in the Far East where Governor Thompson is now conducting a trade mission. The governor is busy promoting Wisconsin to Eastern business representatives. Today the governor said he thought the declining dollar could help spark more Wisconsin trade. In Vilas County this week, twenty-year old Jamie Goodrum was found guilty in the murder of her two young children. Goodrum had originally claimed that the children were abducted in Nicolet National Forest. But later admitted she was responsible for their deaths. A jury will now determine if Goodrum was sane at the time of the murders. Throughout the week, race relations preoccupied the University of Wisconsin System, a university fraternity in Madison was suspended as

the result of one incident, and on Thursday, University President Kenneth Shaw offered some new recommendations on minority student recruitment. At the State Capitol this week, a legislative committee debated the governor's controversial Learnfare program. The program requires that families who receive welfare assistance must make sure their children stay in school. The committee wants to put that program on hold. But the story that dominated much of the news this week was racism. Across the country for the past several years racial incidents have popped up at a variety of university campuses. The University of Wisconsin has not been free of those problems. Problems that this week made the headlines. Racism, it's the topic of our Behind the Headlines report tonight reported by our Art Hackett. Who will be the next victim? That's the question. A university administration under fire for racism. The reason is not it's South African investments. The travel is much closer to home. And the only way we're going to get rid of racism is to fight back. [clapping, crowd noise]

[unclear] Racism or indifference cannot be tolerated. And minority students and faculty they should feel welcome and supported as full members of the academic community. The student rally and President Kenneth Shaw's remarks came at the end of a week in which race relations on the University of Wisconsin's Madison campus were constantly in the headlines. All because of the alleged actions of several members of the campuses Phi Gamma Delta fraternity chapter one week ago. Two members of Phi Gamma Delta, sometimes referred to as Fiji's are charged with beating up several members of another fraternity, Zeta Beta Tau. What follows is the version told by two members of ZBT, a predominantly Jewish fraternity. ZBT member Andre Johnson of Madison. They had slipped into the party which was a closed party and they were throwing racial slurs around. Such as? Such as ah Jew, you know ZBT, you know, to be a Jew be a ZBT with some of the

things that were said. The ony two I recall was kike and dumb Jew. ZBT pledge Len Marmino said the students were ejected from the party. An hour later, while Marmino was cleaning up, the Fiji's returned with friends. As I tried to get in I had six guys on me. Pushing, shoving, I started to get palmed upside the head and I couldn't avoid receiving a punch to the nose straight on. You got ah some sort of a mark under your eye. I've got a black eye right here and the swelling has gone down. The black eye is covered up a little bit here. We had two groups, set up pretty much all the guys ZBT were back in this area. All the guys in Fiji's were back near the stairs. And I was standing pretty much in between the two groups. Ah, I was with my arms outstretched asking come on, would you please just leave. Um, then I received a punch pretty much from nowhere in

my eye as you can see. 21 year old Andrew Falci, a student from Milwaukee was arraigned Wednesday on a charge of battery in connection with the injuries sustained by Leonard Marmino. Another Fiji member has been placed in a deferred prosecution program on a criminal trespass charge. But what has caused more concern than the physical injuries are the references in police reports to racial and religious epithets spoken during the altercation. Epithets, Falci's attorney Stephen Hurley contends never took place. Any allegation of a racial epithet was, that was made the next day by a person who I believe had kicked my client down a flight of stairs and beat him up. What was the nature of the injuries to your client? He was he was bruised. The allegations that a Fiji member called a black man a n***r are newsworthy because of what happened last May. Fiji held its annual Fiji Island party with this caricature in the front yard. [crowd chatting] Following student protests, the university's dean of students suspended the Fiji status as a campus

organization. The fraternity was taken off suspension this fall after Fiji members had attended racial sensitivity workshops. Workshops that took place just four days before the incident at the ZBT house. The co-president of UW Madison's Black Student Union, Geneva Brown described some Fiji's as irritated that they had to attend the workshops. Some of them talked about how when they walked around with the Fiji hat or their Fiji shirt how people view their negatively. When the people who participate in workshops said now you understand what it's like for us. You can take your shirt off and you become a regular person but for us we can't take off our skin. The first Fiji incident was not the first time blacks have taken offense at the actions of a Madison fraternity. The Kappa Sigma house held what was known as an around the world party in 1986. One of the stops, Harlem. Kappa Sigma President Ted Jansen.

There was wall with graffiti on it, like it, it looked more like an alleyway um Then there's ah like a stoop with people sitting on it dressed in with black face paint and wigs. There's also white people there dressed up and that they served watermelon punch. Are you surprised that someone took offense at that? No I don't think so. Now looking back at it I can understand why someone thought it was racially insensitive. At the time because it was there that stereotype was being treated the same as any other stereotype. I don't think any one side is wrong. At this week's board of regents meeting, Regent Camilla Hudson of Mellen called for education of the majority in an effort to solve troubles of minorities. When they throw a racial slur people from the community throw racial slurs out a car window at a student going down the street We can't educate everybody because not everybody wants to be educated but there must be some thinking that we

have to go in this direction also. The University of Wisconsin in Madison ranks near the bottom in terms of its percentage of minority students. It is a circular problem. Fewer black students make it less attractive to black students. Black Student Union Co-President Charles Holley says, that may be a bigger problem than the racial slurs. For many minorities it's hard to find something to do unless you want to be white. You can, you know know a lot of white people seem to think that myself as a black man, I'm no more than a white person with different color skin. It's not true. Yet greater numbers in and of themselves are not the goal of the new program UW President Kenneth Shaw proposed on Thursday. Shaw's proposal includes free tuition for minority students with at least a C plus average, an effort to improve the campus environment for minorities and an emphasis on racial issues in the curriculum. But at a press conference this morning, Shaw pointed out that this would not necessarily mean more minority students would enroll. Rather he hopes that those here, would actually graduate.

Our purpose is not to increase numbers as much as it is to provide good education and I don't want to oversell anybody. Shaw's proposal especially the free tuition program, is likely to draw considerable debate. He still thinks he can sell people on the plan. It depends on when you want to pay the money. Do you want to pay them pay it while they're in school and going to college? Do you want to make those guarantees then or do you want to pay it in terms of diminished productivity in the workforce, in terms of welfare, in terms of other examples of social disorganization. And in turn, of the way I would explain it is simply that. This is a prudent investment. In addition to selling legislators and the public on the wisdom of Shaw's proposal, the university must also convince some angry students it's dealing strongly with the Fiji [Phi G] incident. An independent investigation is now under way. In the meantime, the fraternity has been temporarily suspended as a campus organization and the fraternity itself

has suspended the members involved in the incident. In a prepared statement, Fiji [Phi G] called the incident quote "abhorrence to our members". Fiji's [Phi G] officers have declined to be interviewed for this segment. Art Hackett produced our report. Joining me now to talk about this topic further are Charles Holley, who is co- President of the Black Student Union at the Union University of Wisconsin and Reuben Harpole who is with Community Outreach and Urban Development for University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. You can also participate in our dialogue right now on the topic of racism. You can give us the your thoughts and questions on this matter. You'll see the number on your screen and we would invite you to call in at this time. Mr. Holley let me begin with you, I think this incident at the fraternity has really galvanized a lot of thought and concern about this issue. To what extent though was it just an isolated incident of a couple of maybe drunk students who got out of hand? Or to what extent does that really represent a significant problem within the university community? Well I think it's a clear because of the protests last spring and a lot of things we've been saying

continue to continually throughout the semester that racism is a problem here. You take [unclear] for instance. Regardless of whether it was just a drunken incident or not. The gentlemen had just completed racial sensitivity training, four days before this incident. So they come to somebody's house. They physically abuse them in their own house, call them Nigger, Kike, Hymie whatever you want to call it. For something like that to happen is no sooner than four days after they completed their training is just, I can't explain it. So to your view, it's it's indicative of something that really cuts across the university. Oh definitely, I think it's a whole university problem not just a fraternity problem, not just a Fiji problem but a university problem. What's the mood right now of black students on campus, is it one of anger, is it one of resignation? What's the feeling? Well I think in the past it's been a resignation. Ah a type of idea well we're so isolated maybe it just happens to me and not to anyone else. But the further we get along this a lot more people realize it happens to all of us, you know. Ah when some

body or throw something. Has that happened to you? Oh yes, plenty of times and we starting to, like you said, galvanized black students and galvanized a lot of the minority students, Hispanics, Native Americans. A lot of white students who agree there's a problem here also. Reuben Harpole how about at University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, different kind of community a much larger black population than the city of Madison. What's been the reaction over there to this incident? And what kinds of problems does it offer you as a university person concerned about getting a higher black population in the university system? Well quite simply. I'm in touch with the number of black students who planned to matriculate at some college. And what the reaction has been, is that more and more black students are saying they're planning to attend black predominately black colleges throughout the country, Howard or Nicolet [?], AT [?] and so forth. Because they're really tired of trying to play a game of trying to be a little black white

student and actually be dominated by the culture of whites in the community. All right, let's stop with that thought and go right to our phone lines now and see if we can get some questions from around the state. We have a caller on the line now from Fon du Lac Wisconsin, go ahead please you're on the air. Number one, at the Univeristy of Wisconsin Board Mr. Davis who is a good friend of the President, of the Board of the University of Wisconsin. And he is a true representative of the minority. Are you speaking of Errol Davis? I recognize that that makes everybody even [unclear]

OK excuse me sir, do you have a question that you'd like to address? I got a question. All right, go ahead please. The question is, do Univerity of Wisconsin recognize the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He was referring first to Errol Davis, a prominent black businessman in Madison who's who's on the University of Wisconsin Board of Regents in a question about the Civil Rights Act. Not sure I understand the specifics of the question but Charles you have an observation on that. Well not necessarily on the Civil Rights Act, but I do know one thing, the university has established goals towards affirmative action for minority students and have never come close, even to I think to reach half of that goal. The statistics this week were pretty alarming in that they showed that the UW has the worst minority enrollment of any school in the Big 10. Reuben Harpole. I was going to say that the problem is not on minority students or the fact that Earl Davis achieved a great height of the President of the Wisconsin Power and Light and I'm very proud of that personally. And in fact he's a Board Regent. The problem is on

the administration here, the faculty, the president and others. And what has been their response to a group of students who are trying to grow up and to become mature. And they're clearly showing a defect in their personalities in terms of not being able to get along with people of different culture. And we're in a world economy. You talk about minorities but we're not in the minorities. We're in the majority, if you look at the world population. Whites are in the minority. I'd like to come back and talk about your views of university administration in a moment because the university president did put forth some significant policy statements this week. But before we get to that let's take another call right away from LaCrosse, Wisconsin. Go ahead please, you're on the air. Yes. I'm an Army officer signed up in the area and I'm a graduate of the University of Wisconsin system. And I'm looking at the problems that exist in Madison. But you know, you said educate the students. How about educating the parents of those students. I mean the recent news

out of the shoot[?] of Milwaukee, is the most segregated city in the nation. All right. To combat the problem at the university system, we need to educate I think, the surrounding communities and the parents right down even at elementary level. A question right up your alley Reuben Harpole. You work in community outreach. What about educating people older and younger than those of college age? Yea that's that's a very complicated situation because how can you educate adults. You know they have. How can you? Yea they have this inside of them. I mean is that too much to do about. What you can do, is change behavior. You can't really change attitudes. And that's why Howard Forbes is proposing a school district, so that black can have control over the education process about you. Having are you going to average one. Former employment secretary under Governor Earl. Right. And having our youth come out with an averaged point average D is really not helping anyone.

Let me ask you this question. Let me ask you the question about what University President Kenneth Shaw has proposed this week which is a fairly radical departure from the things that have been proposed before, which is saying minority students have a C plus average or better and meet certain income guidelines will get free tuition at the University of Wisconsin. Good idea on the right track? I think it's a very radical idea as you said. My only problem with that is this, when you talk about admitting 200 or 300 students tuition free, I'm not sure how much the legislature is going to go along with it. Essentially it lets the university off the hook saying, hey we try to do something and puts the blame on somebody else if it doesn't work. University California systems had this for all of their students period for years, so that's not really that big. I'm glad he's bringing those fresh ideas to the Midwest here. Secondly, it's not free because there are plenty blacks who are lying in cemetery graves in in Milwaukee, who have paid taxes over the years and really have their children and their offsprings have not really benefited from the university structure and even looking at it now it's really a shame that the largest population of blacks in Milwaukee have not really benefited

from this university here in the state of Wisconsin. Let's take another call from up in northern Wisconsin tonight, a caller on the line from Tomahawk. Go ahead please you're on the air. Yes my son just accepted at Madison and I'm very upset about this. He was raised up here and he's going to be thrust down there and he's never had any hate for any racial, you know, persons. Everyone is equal to him. And I don't know if I should send him there. Hmmm Hmm, all right. All right. Interesting question. All you have to do is tell your son to be himself. That's what I'd like to say that to the black students and to the other whites, be yourself because you can't be anyone else. And therefore, this is the world and this generation's going to have to deal with this. Because let me tell you, the entire world is watching to see how blacks and whites in the United States are. Charles, would you encourage that student from Tomahawk Wisconsin to come here and second part of my question would you urge a younger brother or sister of yours to come to this university?

I would urge that student to come here. I think that if if he's the type of person as she says he is and he doesn't have any prejudices or any tendencies toward discrimination, then he'll be one of the people we need here. OK. My best advice I can give to you about your son, is to tell your son like Mr Harpole said, to be yourself. When he comes to, he's going to get an education not only book wise but socially and he needs to develop and to become a man and if he's going to be a man, he'll stick by his guns. All right, now what about the black student from Chicago as you are from or from Milwaukee or from Madison wherever, should that student come here or should they head to a more urban kind of environment where black students may not have the same kind of problems they appear to have. Right now, at this very moment, I would tell a student, No don't come here. Don't come to UW Madison? That's a pretty damning statement. Well I tell you. People are really upset about walking the street, getting called names and basically being treated like this in 1951.This is 1921. This is 1870.

See people or adults are watching the reaction of the administrators and the faculty up here. We haven't heard very much from them. Now there was a different response at Dartmouth, when the right went in and shattered the shanty's. They stopped. That was over an apartheid demonstration. They stopped to school to discuss racism. You know stuff that. Does that need to happen here? Would you like to see a real teach-in so to speak about this topic. Yes because there are two sides to people. There's a human side and then there's the cognitive side. Let me ask you let me ask you Mr. Harpole the same question I asked Charles. Would you do you want your son or daughter to come to UW Madison? Do you, I mean you're really caught in the middle here, are you not? You're trying to recruit black students here and yet you're gotta feel some of what Charles Holley just said. Well. See there's a balance here to University Wisconsin. There not all like those students who participated. So I wouldn't have I have I would have no hesitation since fact [?] I plan to go back and recruit harder, in fact there's. Yes we're going to encourage more minorities students to come up here. They have a right to be here.

All right we will see what happens. Thank you Reuben Harpole and Charles Holley, thank you very much for coming tonight. Sorry we did not have time to take more of your calls but we will continue I'm sure with this discussion at another time.[music] Still to come in the Magazine, take a trip to Wisconsin's Avoca Prairie remnant of what Wisconsin looked like when the first settlers arrived, a place where time stands still. For the past week Governor Tommy Thompson has been in the Far East on a mission to drum up increased foreign trade. The governor has taken seriously his role as the state's spokesman and salesman. His Asian venture is a follow up to a European trip he made earlier this year. It's all part of an ongoing effort to make Wisconsin, a state that is involved in the

international economy. And that's the subject of our next background report. After that we will focus on some other topics but this report is called Wisconsin Worldwide reported by Carol Larson. [music] When you look at it closely Wisconsin has it all, everything you need for a successful business. Energy, a willing and cooperative workforce. You have to be an innovator. You have to be out there selling yourself, selling products, selling your state, selling your region. We have to learn to compete not only with Michigan but the high tech states, the sun belt states but also the far Eastern countries and in the European countries. That's where the markets are and we have to make sure that we're part of that or we're going to get left behind. Before leaving for Asia last week an optimistic Governor Tommy Thompson declared himself number one salesman, using his position to open doors in foreign countries, trying to sell the state to anyone who would consider doing business with Wisconsin. Take a look at Wisconsin and see for yourself. The advantages of

doing business in our state. [music] This videotape presentation will be shown to business leaders in Asia, showing them just where in the world we are, as well as the more attractive aspects of living and working here.[music] It's the same persuasion that's been used in Europe by Wisconsin's representative there. We're going out and trying to develop leads. Dieter [last name?] is the director of Wisconsin's Trade Office in Europe, persuading European companies who are thinking of doing business in the United States that Wisconsin is the place to go. When you try to recruit a company to your area, you're competing with other states, 50 altogether, 27 of those are here in Europe. It is not so fight for each company on a specific level, it has to be business wise, get to a region. The Wisconsin office is located in Frankfurt West Germany, one of Europe's economic

capitals. Wisconsin's European office was opened in 1984 and cost about $300,000 a year. At first, Broiler [?] thought it would take perhaps two years to develop enough leads to make a sale. The staff however has enjoyed quick success due in part says Broiler to luck. But you make your own luck many times. That's the feeling I'm getting as we're working very hard, very strong and have been getting the rewards. The rewards have translated into 11 European companies who have built branch offices or factories in the state of Wisconsin, in Mequon, Marinette, Hayward and other places. Mostly small businesses, but like the one in Deerfield expected to grow. Interpane is a West German firm that makes insulating coatings for Windows. Coatings that keep the cold out and the heat in or vice versa depending on the season or climate.

Oh, we get a lot of upfront information about Wisconsin. When you travel around in the United, the United States is big. And to find a little bit more out about the market and someone. So we've got a lot of information from these people over there first. Swiss-born Kurt Roofenock set up and now runs Interpane's plant in Deerfield. He convinced his superiors of the potential market here and to make the big leap to building a factory across the Atlantic. States from Minnesota to Virginia courted Interpane, trying to lure the plant to their backyards. But Wisconsin won out. And the people here are really helpful. They helped me to set up meetings with business people here, to find out how is the business climate, salaries. And about taxes. Though contrary to expectations,

Wisconsin taxes were not considered that steep. Not compared to European standards. For me, it was not the final decision, the tax situation. Even a tax could be a little bit lower for corporate. But at the time, for me it was a more important to look at the markets, to see where is the market. Where is my market access and how close I am that I could create my whole market here. Especially the 60 pound chamber in the back there was quite difficult to get over here. With most U.S window makers working in northern Wisconsin and several large cities nearby, Interpane got its market in central location and Wisconsin got one more in a growing number of foreign firms to profit from which could in the future multiply. One billion dollars of sales

is extrapolates into 3,000 jobs. Now if you can sell 3 billion dollars, we got 9,000 new jobs in Wisconsin. The governor thinks big. The international office has yet to help create 3000 new jobs but the European experience is considered a success. Interpane, for instance started out with four employees and now has 65, an increase sweetened by the fact that for each new job, about 20 other jobs are created in support industries. And if we can continue to expand our markets, we'll help intercultural sector, we'll help the small business sector. We need to get more business people in Wisconsin that are involved in manufacturing to look at international trade and to sell their products. If we can continue to sell, we'll create jobs and make this a better place to live. Wisconsin workers are conscientious, skilled and reliable. This is a workforce which is truly exceptional.

Wisconsin has begun to do what it can to encourage international trade and business investment. The state can present videotapes or visits with the governor and help guide foreign companies through the morass of necessary legal and bureaucratic paperwork. But the state cannot offer financial incentives. It is up to the cities and towns like Deerfield to arrange land loans, special financing or utility deals which they often do, again with state encouragement. Whether a foreign company decides to locate or trade in Wisconsin however, does not always depend on markets or financing or business factors. Cultural factors can make or break a foreign business deal. And that is perhaps one of the more important tasks handled by the trade office. Making sure the differences between Americans and Europeans do not cause misunderstandings or offense. Here the approach needs to be European,very formal. Actually aiming at the decision making level of a company which is managing level.

You have to go through the ritual of getting contact, maintaining contact and then bring up businesses and you don't just knock on the door. open and say here I am from Wisconsin. This is my product. You want it. For me, it was important to listen to the people here to try to find the right way to run the company, like a European company but sales, sides is American way. So you adjusted, they adjusted. Right. But we still go through an adjustment.[laugh] Adjustment can be profitable where governments once worried about foreign investment on U.S. soil, they now try to encourage business from across the oceans to locate here. A way of expanding our own borders and keeping the profits at home. So it's just a win win win situation. And that's what it's all about. Let's get in. Let's sell ourselves, sell our products, sell the great state of Wisconsin and let other people

know how great we have it here. When you look at it, Wisconsin really does have it all. If you would like to comment on this week's program, write The Wisconsin Magazine, 821 University Avenue Madison Wisconsin 5 3 7 0 6. As Congress and the president wrestle with the budget deficit in Washington only one item is not up for discussion or reduction, Social Security. Cutting Social Security is taboo. And yet the Social Security fund faces a real dilemma. There are simply fewer and fewer workers to support more and more retirees. A growing problem for our aging society. One solution offered by presidential candidate Pat Robertson is simple. Have more children. But there are other solutions and that is what we are going to focus now on our next segment. That is the topic of tonight's closer look report. We call our story the ties that bind. Produced by Linda Friend.

[family talking in background] Dinner at 81 year old Clarence Nielsen's home is a family affair. Nielsen is retired and has been widowed for four years. During his 45 year marriage, Nielson and his wife Rhoda contributed five children to the enormous baby boom generation. A generation of some 80 million, that as it ages will become a kind of population timebomb. We don't solve any problems by pretending these numbers aren't going to hit us. They are going to hit us, they're there. We already knew now what these numbers will look like because the people who are already alive. Democratic Congressman James Moody of Milwaukee is chairman of an advisory committee for a group called Americans for Generational Equity or AGE. Moody's group is concerned that paying for the Social Security and medical benefits of a retired baby boom generation will be a huge tax burden for the young, especially given the ever lengthening lifespan. We're now talking about people living a quarter of their life in retirement.

Which is a new phenomenon. It brings economic issues into play as well as quality of life issues into play. And I think there's a growing recognition in the United States that we have to make some adjustments to to to allow for this. Some adjustments in the Social Security system have already been made. In 1983, Congress approved taxing some benefits paid to well-off retirees. Clarence Nelson has been depending on Social Security checks since his retirement. But his son, Alan and daughter-in-law Cindy, are less sure of what they can depend on. That's something that a person can't count on. No responsible individual today, I don't believe could consider that as something in the bank that's going to be collected later. We're going to have to start socking it away and socking it away now, you know. If not you know we'll be in the poor house. But it's rough and you know, the outlook as far as my children go too. They're not going

to have a red cent. The problem for Alan and Cindy's kids will be money and numbers. The baby boomers have produced a baby bust generation. That means there will be fewer and fewer workers to support tomorrow's retirees. When Social Security began in the 1930s, there were 16 workers to support each retiree. Today there are only 3 and by the year 2010, there will be only 2. But experts think solutions can be found if the generations can avoid conflict. The signposts leading us towards an aging society all seem to be suggesting that the only paths are paths that involve conflicts between age groups. Robert Binstock is a former director of the White House Task Force on Older Americans. He spoke at a conference on our aging society last month in Madison. Binstock thinks baby boomers often don't realize that Social Security deductions in their paychecks

go to support current retirees not to support their own future retirement. The Social Security tax is not a contribution. That it's a tax on them going to someone else and there is no jar or a drawer in Washington with their name on it with this money accumulating and drawing interest. And their feeling is why wouldn't Congress walk in someday and do away with this. They saw in 1983, that Congress could sit down and do a whole bunch of things with Social Security that people were saying for 50 years couldn't be done. Binstock believes we may have to forgo automatic Social Security payments if we are to keep our children from being taxed into poverty. He suggests giving Social Security only to those who really need the income regardless of age. Even the magic age of 65. I can't at least from my values and from my observation, I can't

see any reason why people should automatically become eligible for public goods just by having a birthday. [laughter] I know when I get older I am going to say, oh look at all my money going to taxes. But I think it is a really good cause. Practically alI of our paycheck will going to be going towards Social Security and taxes. We're not going to have any money to live on. So I think I think your attitude may change if that's what actually happens. This fall's aging conference in Madison included discussion groups where old and young shared ideas about aging. Public concern seems to be growing that if solutions are not hammered out now, the hardships for future generations will be severe. Congressman Moody. The Japanese save almost four times as much on a percentage basis as their income as we do. They're one of the most productive societies. That's that's an obvious relationship which is cause and effect. The Japanese also spend relatively little of their savings on the military. We spend a huge amount of our savings on military.

If we're going to make those choices then we're going to have to pay the price. Moody believes America needs to increase the overall size of its economic pie in order to support its older citizens. And if we do not do it soon, he warns the slicing of the pie will become a critical political issue. Yes something has to give but one has to give is got to be handled with fairness and equality. This is the reason we need to look ahead, we need to be future oriented. We cannot make public policy based on just today. Retired University of Wisconsin-Madison Professor Margaret Munroe organized the Aging conference to develop new ideas for a multigenerational society. The whole, ah, intergenerational relationship pattern is going to change as we have three generations and fourth generation families. Small children can very well grow up in families that have not only grandparents but maybe great grandparents. Many people will retire to

the responsibility for their parents or their grandparents. And if we are to remain a humane civilized society, we're going to be taking this into account well in advance. You know it's kind of like a big circle you know we're all in it together. I mean I'll put anything I had into education because that's the future of the world, I think you know I'm older now so all I'm going to do is get older causes or I'm young now and I'm not going give to anything that's older. You know because we're all so related. Interaction with younger people is the most important thing I can do to keep up with the world. You sit down with an older person and through speaking with them, you learn alot from them, you know. This connection between generations may actually help in new and unexpected ways as family structures change with the times. You're home early tonight. Clarence Nielsen has another daughter Carla and

his home is now a three generational family. When Carla Nielsen Fenton joined the growing ranks of single working parents, Clarence Nielsen was able to help her cope financially. Well right after the divorce I did have my own apartment and I was getting along fine except at the time I was on waitress salary and I just barely made enough, you know as far as rent and food. Carla Fenton moved back into her childhood home with her daughter Ana. The money she saved paid for more education and she is now an architectural drafts person. The living situation that we have right now with with my father it works out really well because um he helps out quite a bit with the cost of the um no day care involved which is you know a great savings on my end. And her presence helps keep Nielson out of a nursing home and at home with family. But there is an even greater benefit. When Ana comes home and there is someone

here, you know at the house and with dad also watching her. She tends to get the same kind of ideas and feelings that I raised I was raised with. [background] Generational connections not generational conflict, may guide us to solutions that will help us all. We're a family. We have to treat the young and the old and each end of the spectrum is part of that family and we can't ignore one or the other. It's not a question of conflict. It's a question recognizing that there's a connection that goes all the way through. Linda Friend produced that last report. Time now for our regular wrap up of the week's events. It was a week that saw Governor Thompson journey to the Far East as part of his trade mission. A week also where charges of racism in a new university plan to improve minority enrollments made the headlines. And also in the news this week the so called LearnFare program. The legislature has its doubts about it. The

administration wants to move ahead. Joining me now as always to talk about those stories Dick Wheeler and Charlie Sykes. Let's talk about LearnFare. First of all it's really been in the news quite a bit. It's the program which says if you want to receive welfare the kids have got to stay in school and it's really been a fight up at the Capitol this week about whether it should proceed or not. It has been a fight. They've got a three tier war going on. They've got a governor who authored a bill to allow a legislative committee to suspend the rule arguing now that the committee doesn't have the authority to suspend the rule that he wants to pass. That's a mouthful but that's what it amounts to. They've got a program that's basically considered a Democratic proposal and the other state that was enacted by a Republican governor who used his veto to expand it to cover more things than they wanted. And you've got a Democratic Health and Social Services secretary under a Republican governor who is arguing with a Democratic legislature about what ought to be done. Yeah. Well Charlie what about the view in Milwaukee in all this because Milwaukee Public Schools have been worried about the impact of

all of these dropped out kids who are going to have to head back to the schools if their families are going to keep getting welfare benefits. Well that was one of the most interesting things about the whole story I think is the complaint immediately from the Milwaukee public school administration that this would cause tremendous administrative problems because as many as 5000 students might come back to the Milwaukee public schools which is really striking because you would normally think that the problem would be the concern about where those 5000 students are. I think that what it did was the one good thing that LearnFare has done perhaps is to put MPS's feet to the fire. They have failed so abysmally, Milwaukee Public School, in the field so abysmally in addressing this problem of dropouts among minority and poor students. I mean that is the key to the cycle of poverty and they've done virtually nothing about it. But interesting, a number of black legislators and including Marsha Coggs testified this week that LearnFare was a lousy idea.

I mean. They're arguing that to reduce the benefits for a mother with a single teenage child because that teenage child will not go to the school is economic blackmail on the mother who has no opportunity. The original intent of LearnFare was to keep the pregnant and mother, teenage mothers in school so that they wouldn't get into a situation 15 years later where they've got a teenage child who is refusing to go to school when both are still on welfare. In that sense it's an intriguing idea. I mean it's not in a in a novel one is it not? It's both intriguing and novel and I think that what you saw this week is the fact that as Dick said this is kind of a Democratic idea and yet the Republicans have managed to sort of steal a march on it. And that it was Tommy Thompson and Betty Jo Nelson, who I think were most prominent in supporting this thing. Because let's face it, you know somebody is going to have to do something even talking about welfare reform for years. You're not going to have any welfare reform until you break that

cycle and you're not going to break that cycle until you get the kids back in school. And yet the most prominent Democrat at the state legislature, Tom Loftus is saying what? Well he is basically for these types of programs. He has argued for them for years when it was popular to argue for them and when it was not popular to argue for them. He has also opposed the procedure which is now being used to stop the rule. So and now he's in the strange position of having to support something that he opposed, in order to stop something that he wants. Yeah it's convoluted as the devil but it's you know it's situation normal, that's politics. It's typical of the lack of coherence and leadership on the part of both parties on the question of of dealing with any of these urban problems, with the problems of race you were talking about earlier. Neither party has had much of a game plan and this whole spaghetti soup that we have here is just just par for the course.

You've given me the obvious a transition line now into the into the topic of racism which we have been talking about this hour, a related kind of urban problem. What's been the views both at the Capitol and in the city of Milwaukee this week about the hubbub concern and anger that surfaced this week over the topic of racism and minority recruitment? Well there there at this point is not that much happening within the legislature. I don't think the legislators want to try to grapple with that octopus right now. I think they're just as happy that President Shaw is working on it. He sent up a couple of trial balloons to free education. The heavier recruitment. He sent up his trial balloons. Let's see who shoots or who salutes before too many legislators jump on that one because you can create yourself a monster that you can't control. Yeah I think it was interesting what Shaw's reaction was. I think that all university presidents in their hearts feel that any problem can be solved with some money. And the problem with the UW system is essentially two-fold. One is

that with the kind of black education that we're getting in our city like in Milwaukee we're talking about. So many blacks are ill prepared for university education in the first place and the free tuition doesn't solve that. And second of all, nobody seems to have talked about thus far, is that UW is a major research institution that does not really put a priority on paying attention to the teaching function, particularly in the first two years. A lot of those students will come here. They won't even see a professor. They're going to be they're going to get teaching assistants and so they naturally will fall between the cracks in an institution like UW. What President Shaw is saying of course is that that's precisely what he's trying to change now by putting the emphasis on not just beating the bushes and recruiting all as many students as you can find who are of a different color. But but getting good students who have a high academic average, who have a chance of success and trying to get students not only here but getting them to graduate. But a high high academic achievement in high

school Charlie teaches at UW Milwaukee and the average grade coming out of high school is a D for a black student. And President Shaw wants to give educations to anyone who gets a C plus. You're not going to have anybody qualify coming out of Milwaukee public schools if the average rate is a D. If this is not a problem that the UW as an institution is going to be able to solve. And I think that any of the teachers who have dealt with some of these problems and you have students in your classroom who are barely literate and who do have these D averages coming out of really mediocre schools, it's very difficult to deal with that by the time you get to the university level. In a sense it seems to me we've now come full circle in this seven minute conversation. In a sense, is this not an argument for Learnfare? Well I think I think that Learnfare is one of those ideas that has so many problems with it that the Democrats have pointed out. But I have yet to hear a better idea. All right, we'll leave it at that then. Dick Wheeler and Charlie Sykes thank you. It has been

a busy week, a controversial week and so we will end our program now with a look at something that is unhurried, a walking tour of a quiet place known as a Avoca Prairie about 50 miles west of Madison. Prairie's are popular these days, wildflowers and prairie grasses have found their way into suburban neighborhoods. But as Steve Jandacek reports there's nothing quite like the original. Our story is called Avoca Prairie produced by Steve Jandacek. Prairie is French for meadow. The name comes from French explorers who were the first

Europeans to see the meadows that once covered hundreds of millions of acres in the New World. This is Avoca Prairie in Iowa county, bordered on the north by the Wisconsin River and highway 133 to the south. Avoca Prairie goes nine hundred acres of native Wisconsin prairie grasses with names like Big Bluestem, Northern Dropseed and June grass. [music] Every week from April to September, the prairie comes alive with color, as 100 different prairie plants bloom, Gayfeather, Goldenrod Evening Primrose. Wildlife likes it here, among the flowers are bees, butterflies and other insects. Many birds including the Sandhill Crane visit the prairie. A marsh hawk flies low in search of dinner.

If Charles Kuralt were doing this story for the CBS Sunday Morning program, he might say something like, here there is no traffic, there are no crowds. Only the sounds that Mother Nature makes. For here in Avoca Prairie, one can find solitude without loneliness. What we have here is the largest prairie east of the Mississippi River. Mark Martin is with the State Department of Natural Resources. Avoca Prairie is a state wildlife area managed by the Bureau of Endangered Resources. There's only about 2,000 acres of prairie left in the state of the several million acres to start with and we're trying to preserve the prairies just for their beauty, for their genetic diversity, for the

rare plants that are in them. To preserve some of Wisconsin's natural heritage. In the days before state wildlife management, the prairie took care of itself. Prairie fires occurred naturally and prevented woody shrubs and trees from overtaking prairie plants. [music] Naturally fires were very common in the prairies and this past spring, we burned about 200 acres of Avoca out here to simulate natural conditions and then also to just kill back or top kill the willows that are invading the prairie. The Department of Natural Resources burns the prairie often. The roots of the prairie plants survive the fire and flourish in the ash rich soil. After a burning is when a lot of these plants this are was burnt right here in the middle of April and you can see the nice wild flower display that stimulated from the fire. Wisconsin naturalist John Muir noted the significance of the prairie fire when he wrote, Had There Been No Fire.

These fine prairies would have been covered by the heaviest forest. Burr Oak trees stand as sentries to the prairie. With its thick bark, the Burr Oak is the only tree that can survive a prairie fire. This year marks the 100th anniversary of the birth of Aldo Leopold, a man considered the father of wildlife management. Although Leopold would be at home here walking among the bees and butterflies taking notes. In the 1840s settlers arrived in Wisconsin. Avoca Prairie gives one the feeling of what Wisconsin must of looked like before the land was farmed more than a century ago. Vegetation like this is what the settlers found when they came to Wisconsin and the prairie is where what built the rich dark topsoil that we're using for corn fields and soybeans fields today. Under the plow and bulldozer, the prairie slowly

disappeared in much of Wisconsin. In Aldo Leopold's Sand County Almanac the author lamented the disappearance of the Cutleaf Silphium and wrote what a thousand acres of Silphiums looked like when they tickled the bellies of the buffalo is a question never again to be answered and perhaps not even asked. Leopold would be happy to know that the Silphium is back in bloom in parts of Wisconsin. In these fast paced stressful times we live in, it's nice to escape to Avoca Prairie every once in a while. Here there really is no traffic. There really are no crowds. Only the sounds that Mother Nature makes. Probably the only place in southern Wisconsin that I'm aware of where you can actually stand out here and seeing all natural landscaping as far as you can see here. It's all prairie and when you get away from the prairie, you're overlooking a wooded bluff of the Wisconsin River here. If Charles Kuralt were doing this story he might say something like Amen here I think.

Photographers Mike Eicher, Tom Turnquist and Frank Boll put our story together. I'm Dave Iverson thank you for joining us on this live edition of The Wisconsin Magazine. We'll see you a week from tonight. Good night We'll see you next time on The Wisconsin Magazine. You're shaking hands with history we're going down and you're stepping back into time. and most stars know will tell you, it's the ultimate In November of 1886, the Lucerne loaded with 12 hundred tons of iron ore and crew of nine, sailed into one of Lake Superior's infamous gales and wrecked in the shallow water off Long Island. Apparently none of her crew survived. Nine men were aboard and all nine were lost. We take a step back into shipwreck history when we visit two sunken ships in the Apostle Islands and examine efforts to

protect them from Treasure Hunters. Next time on the Wisconsin magazine.