Wisconsin Week; 113

Oh. Tonight's production of Wisconsin week is made possible in part by our pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal garb aeration providing reliable natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries. For nearly 40 years. No. Welcome I'm Joe Smith in Milwaukee and I'm Dave Iverson in Madison. Coming up on tonight's Wisconsin League the latest on Chippewa fishing rights. It's a topic that's become so controversial that the statists thought up a handy solution money in order to avoid angry confrontations between India and fierce spear fishermen and white protesters buy out the

tribes pay the chip not the fish. We'll hear from both sides of the controversy later tonight. Now Joe has tonight's first discussion topic and a summary of the week's news. Joe thank state money made the news in Wisconsin. HOW WILL ARNETT How will spend it and how will squander it. Eleven Wisconsin sites are now vying for state approved greyhound dog tracks but no dog and pony show here yet. Horse racing promoters missed the application deadline on Tuesday. If you are making minimum wage you may be up for a raise soon from three thirty five an hour to 365. The first jump in eight years but if Governor Thompson has his way only workers on the job for at least two months get the increase in a more benevolent gesture. Governor Thompson announced a low income housing initiative for renters and first time homebuyers $50000000 has been set aside for his plan. Have you ever had more money than you knew what to do with. The state may be faced with that luxury. There will be ninety two point nine million dollars in surplus at the end of the current budget. The

question is how would we use it for properly property relief. And goodbye Madison Hello Washington state senator Susan Engle Lider was selected Wednesday by George Bush to head the Small Business Administration. And now on to our first topic at hand today George Bush took the oath of office as the nation's 40 first president and called for a new spirit of activism and of service to others. Reiterating his campaign for a kinder and gentler nation. Bush remembered the homeless the elderly and the poor. His inaugural address included motherless children and single mothers and drug addicts. As you as Bush takes office what advice will he need to help solve the problems for people outside the influence mainstream. Joining me from Madison is Louise true back executive director for the center of public representation here in Milwaukee. Sharon Metz executive director of the Lutheran human relations Association of America. Ms Metz is the former Democratic state representative and Dr. Walter Farrow a professor of educational policy and Community Studies at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee.

Well the Republicans have had a whooping they have a celebration in Washington well this is an electronic letter of advice from the other side I welcome all of you. Sure let me start with you your organization is out to combat racism and sexism in all forms in church and in society in general. The new president is he able is he going to be able to do any of that the things that you're out for. I think the first thing that he has to do is prove that he's credible. It's like someone buying a new store putting up a new awning putting up new windows and painting it and that looks fine and people get excited about the new store in town and get inside and find out it's the same old stuff inside. I think he has to prove that what he says he's going to do and it is not just a facade. Today was his grand opening. All right the ribbon was cut. Dr. feral your main concern I think is education. He wants to be considered to be the education president. From what you've seen today from what you've read today is he going to be able to do it.

Well I think there's a window of opportunity is there Joe. And what he has to do is put flesh on the educational bones that he's out lamp of the country and he has promulgated just last week. Educational choice in public schools. He needs to flesh that out. Who's going to be accountable for what. What would be the reigns of that show us. Is it reasonable to do public school teachers are going to be protected in this new educational scenario. So those things we need to do is to make specific because what he has now some broad outlines to sound good to everybody and has very little to disagree with because there's nothing you can get or really get a handle. Louise can you disagree with what you heard President Bush say today I mean he's he's actually extending his hand out to the nation and it's a steward ship of sorts he says he wants he wants it to be a kind or a kinder and gentler nation. From what you've read and heard today is that is that what you say. Well I'm concerned about the tax situation because he has a huge budget deficit which he has greatly alarmed the American people about. And he's taken a very

strong position reaffirmed yesterday on no taxes of any type. And I think there's a major goal of cutting entitlement programs which are keeping the elderly. Many working class and poor families out of thinking absolutely into the true underclass. And I don't see how he is going to be able to put this all together. Surveyor to showup survey shows that the American people support Medicare support Social Security support health insurance for all. And yet they also seem to support no tax increases. Well you can't have both can you. No and I well I'm very fearful of is that he will figure out some skillful perhaps guileful way of cutting entitlements and basic support programs for the elderly and the poor and working class family. I hear what I'm hearing from you is that you're not too trustful uglier take a slightly different perspective of the he's going to find some skillful and gaffa way to raise taxes because Rich dumb when his budget director has been on Capitol Hill for the last two days they have to gingerly around

the tax issue. They know that they need more revenues. And I think George Bush took a strong. Political tactic in Syria no taxes due in the election. But he knows he's going to have to raise additional revenues. Other places Well I'm not so certain of that. I think that he Darman have an opportunity to open up some some cracks and he closed up. And so I think this may show that they are really out to hit some of the major entitlement programs. And all this talk about green the elderly and the unfairness of the elderly getting too much money and transfers to poor and children may be just a way of cutting back all programs in order to balance the deficit and not raise taxes. Surely you think that's going to happen. Well I think he has to read the public. And one of the surveys done just yesterday shows that the American public eight years ago was very pro military and wanted more defense spending and less on Human Services. And that has shifted. That has shifted dramatically. And so George Bush may find out that he has to listen to the people and

cut the military and look at human services from from what you said today it sounds as though he has listened a little bit. He was very sympathetic to the plight of a lot of American people that perhaps a lot of people didn't see in the Reagan administration. Yes I certainly share that view and I don't think George Bush should buy his personal philosophy or buy his past political actions when he's been in the political situation to make a decision will be a Reagan clone. I don't feel that at all. And I think he's looking for the signals from the American population to let him move into raising additional revenue would do. Whether you call them revenue in and statements or whatever and my reading of Diamond's testimony on Capitol Hill what he was searching for an opening and I don't think that they will go out of the programs as viciously as some might if I say anything today that is going to come back to haunt him in the ways. Well I'm not certain about that I can't speak to that but I do feel that the

smoothness with which he's handling it indicates he is reading the polls too and realize the public to support these entitlement programs and I think it is imperative for people to speak up now and to say look we realize there are hard tradeoffs but we're willing to make them. If you present them in a fair and open way and I think this is the opportunity in the next year in particular people are going on for the last eight years that have an interesting I think that he is calling for more volunteers and more activism and it's going to be interesting if that's supposed to replace government programs and the private institutions churches. So forth are supposed to pick up the slack. They've already done that almost to their capacity in the last eight years. So if he is setting a tone for volunteers and that's fine but to supplant programs that the government ought to be behind that's a different thing. So we don't know what that message is all about. I agree with that. Oh you jockeying for position that don't think that he's going to go up in total minutes. I think his basic personal philosophy is one that will allow him to do what's

necessary. I think you'll do a bit more creatively. Somewhat like double tops on this berm here. It was time we know of his previous legislative days but he's been able to pull together a cross-section of support out throughout the state in the last two or three years. Just a little bit of time left let me ask you know I'll start with you Sharon. Let me ask you what piece of advice would you like to send right now to the new president. The Southern Cone in this country for a new spirit a new spirit of cooperation and not a spirit of hate. This country and the state have become spirited and it's up to George Bush to lead us out of that crisis. Still that is reaching out to a broad cross section of this country by disappointment with the slow clap of the level and also communicate his commitment to fairness by speaking out vigorously against racial slights throughout the years. I think you should speak very carefully with Congress and spend a lot of time in discussions with the leaders who've just been elected the congressman and senators.

And most of them many of whom are Democrats and see if we can get some more of a bipartisan policy on some of these key social concerns. All right and we will find out what happens shortly. Thank you all very much for being with us thank you. Every spring for the last several years we have witnessed angry confrontations over the topic of treaty rights. Those 19th century treaties that guarantee certain hunting and fishing rights to the various Chippewa tribes now along comes Attorney General John Hannah away with an intriguing idea. A buyout put an end to the controversy by writing the

tribes of Czech attorney general Han away joins us now along with Mr. Walt said Mr. Burr said joins us tonight from Milwaukee. He is a red Cliffe Chippewa who opposes the buyout idea which original head of wait let me begin by asking you this you came up with what would seem like an appealing idea first to the mole Lake Chippewa band 10 and a half million dollars to one of the poorest Indian communities in this state. They said no which makes it sound like this isn't going to be a problem that money at least can easily solve and I think to some extent that's true I think we are talking in terms of attitudes to some extent. But let me say I mean you referred to this as a buyout. Number of occasions and I prefer to look at it differently. You know Mr. P.C. might not agree with this but it's a leasing as far as I'm concerned if I were to buy your home I would generally take the position and I think you would get it back after the sale or after I was done occupying it. If I was to lease your home I would get occupancy. You would

maintain ownership and when I was done using You're all done possessing it if you will you get it back. So in other words we're talking about here and I think unfortunately there's a misconception and it is worked as to the disadvantage of all parties concerned. By continually referring to this is a buyout So you'd rather look at it as a temporary leasing kind of agreement don't do this for a while and will pay you a certain amount weld the Chippewa Tribe has made it very clear that they will not frankly discuss any type of permanent buyout. Is there concern that they make a decision now it's going to affect their grandchildren great grandchildren and they do believe under the circumstances that their great grandchildren should have the choice themselves well present you've heard of the attorney general's point which is that this is not a permanent buyout we're not talking about abrogating treaty rights we're talking about something that is a temporary lease out if you will for a for a period of years. What's your response to that vision of this agreement.

Well if you look at the agreement or the proposal people said no to in fact that wasn't a lease at all. It suggest indeed that they get out of the litigation and that they forego any of the past damages that they have been protected under by the treaties. The attorney general and the governor I think have come up with a new strategy the first strategy is to try and convince the public here in Wisconsin that we're not talk they're trying to sell the buyout as a lease so that's the first strategy. So spin control is in the past right now. The attorney general said as a reason for the proposed agreement is that it would protect the natural resources it would. Indeed it would do that but it would protect it from the Lake Superior Chippewa from exercising any kind of code management control over those resell your point of view is that this is a this is a guarantee for all time and whether we're talking 10 years or longer the right to do that is more important than a check for ten million dollars in a case of them all like it's essential because what we're talking about now not we're not talking just talking about about the

state of Wisconsin having to declare martial law every spring which is their solution to this fundamental change in resource management and in Wisconsin what we're talking about is control over natural resources and the state knows that fully well right. Let's talk about the why behind this. Because you can make an argument that most of the scientific evidence is. It doesn't look necessarily like terrible damage has been done to the environment. If you accept that that that assessment and let me ask you first if you do but but but does that doesn't that argue for the fact of you know why bother. I mean really why do we need to do this. Well I do accept that assessment at this point in time. But we have to recognize under the interim agreements that exist that the Chippewa are entitled and have agreed to take just 20 percent of the total allowable catch. And we're finding that now is affecting the resources acknowledging of course that non-Indians are taking a substantial amount of the fish oil and if you take off and

indeed take far for more oh absolutely no question about it what's at stake here I think that's the question. And I do believe the natural resources are at stake. I think the property owner of the property rights of Northern landowners are at stake. It was I tell you when I was there that the legal rights of the chip was at state state tribal relations is at stake. And to some extent this state's tradition for a state of laws and not violence is at stake. So are you but you are but you would reject the idea that this is essentially an attempt to buy the peace. Will it is an attempt obviously to keep the peace and provide peace in the north. Oh there's no question about that by it. I don't know they have some coin and their coin is that they've they've got these but really quite recognized rights. We have some coin because we feel that we can give them something that would help their economic situation and indeed do away with the 80 percent unemployment the body of water said let me ask you this because a convincing argument can also be made that this is you know we're on the eve of the 1990s and the days of hunting and gathering are over I mean

isn't it more important to get some significant economic development to the poorest of the poor in our state rather than worrying about being able to spear a few musky. Well there is and there is no doubt that the poorest of the poor need help but I don't think that they need to trade rights in order to do that if you look at the proposal that's exactly what they're proposing the strong arm economic terrorism as Jackson talked about it during his campaign. No other group of people are being asked to give up their rights in order to get health and social services. This data with guidance and its leadership currently and in the past has abdicated their responsibility for economic. Stability for northern Wisconsin and for adequate health and social care up there. What do the four scouting Pottawatomie have to get up give up in order to get decent educational services in Crandon school district for the challenge Mr Hanoi is a kind of trade to give up something and we'll help you out on the other hand. Well with this agreement provided that the help we've been providing them by way of

job creation initiatives would be over and above any entitlements that they would have used by the federal or state government. If you don't mind your doing it this federal government currently is spending about 30 million dollars a year for for a Native Americans in the States. This doesn't have anything to do with that this isn't top indeed of that little lets you know you're not you're finding that it's either one else in the state just one hand away let's look at the agreement the proposal suggests 75 percent for economic development but the actual proposal goes to the Department of development in order for Mole lake to get any of that money they have to write a proposal to the state of Wisconsin paternalism at its worst. Then let me it's written Exxon could write a proposal to cure that money that is sensibly you're giving to the to the people more like your poor just as long as they say that they will hire more members. Let me agree. Let me I'm going to secure that you can have it develop and you're not going to create an island of affluence in a place where the people have rejected them

and failed to address that issue for decades and decades. Let me suggest a somewhat which will sound facetious but it's not meant to entirely be alternative and that is this. Why not provide the tribes with the economic development that I think most people on either side of this dispute would say is necessary. And then as an alternative to buy the peace if you will simply give every Anglo fisherman in northern Wisconsin a musky. I mean isn't this in the end part of what this is about this sort of jealousy that a lot of white fishermen feel oh there's no question about that. I would agree I don't think that that would be a solution at all. I think there's two things working here in a purist on both sides of this issue. I prefer to think of myself as being in the middle of that. The non-Indian feels that indeed the Indian's idea of management of the natural resources is no management at all. And that's wrong and I would say that right up front. The Indian believes however that the state's regulation of natural resources is only for the sportsman and indeed for no other reason and that also is wrong. So

the purists on both sides of this issue in my opinion are wrong. What we're trying to do and we're looking for a workable solution if there is another solution. We'd sure like to hear it all right and I don't want to live in the moment we have remaining both if you would please suggest some middle ground. Percent what would you like to see to bring to a kind of conclusion of this perennial issue which we have debated now for many years. A couple of things need to happen the state of Wisconsin needs to articulate a policy which which acknowledges the fundamental change in natural resource management if it takes to lead the people will follow instead of just declaring martial law secondly if there continue to argue and allow the frost to continue by the sportsman in northern Wisconsin and other folks when they're allowing to happen what needs to happen is to have an assessment of natural resources of the entire state of Wisconsin so that we can figure out what kind of impacts really are the treaty rights having But let's all look at the paper mail let's look at how come there's over 100 Lakes now being listed by the DNR as as being under British that.

Mr. P.C. I'm afraid we'll have to leave it at that let me leave you with one last question Mr. Hattaway and that is this. Are we at significant risk again for violent contract confrontation in the north which if this resolution does not come about. That's difficult to answer I would like to say no I just simply don't know. I know what's gone on in the past and I suspect that it will continue in the future unfortunately and I'm talking about activities of a very very small minority a tiny few. But indeed I believe that's the stakes are very high and indeed do when when this state gets to the point as it will I think very shortly of changing the bag limits and walleye in the state of Wisconsin and its major northern lakes then I fear that the violence could even become greater. Done hand away and Madison will proceed in Milwaukee thanks both for joining us tonight. Well it's time now for our weekly roundtable discussion back our regulars in Madison are one Nowell

editor of The Progressive and here in Milwaukee political scientist John McAdams John is a professor of political science at Marquette University Welcome both. This a heated discussion. Is it fair to to ask the Chippewas to relinquish their rights too to the natural resources and to the end as Mr. Hattaway says lease. Is that fair. It's certainly fair if they're fairly compensated. And if there's an important public purpose in doing so I think there is an important public purpose social relations between whites and Indians in northern Wisconsin or sort of up an open sore a constant area of conflict. And it's really a very bad situation when I feel things are unequal. Yeah exactly. You know it's important to remember that having special privileges any minority group having special privileges is a source of social conflict. Those kinds of policies in fact encourage and perpetuate racism. The sooner we can in them in a way that's fair to the Indians the better.

I want to agree with that. No I categorically disagree I think it's grossly unfair. To try to take these rights away let's just put the thing in historical context the Europeans way. White people came to this continent stole the land from the Indians hunted them down slaughtered them devastated their culture finally gave them a pittance in compensation for that crime and now we're trying to steal that pathetic little legacy from them. You know in our tradition that there is in our tradition we have a long standing warning against selling out your birthright for a mess of pottage. Well that's what we're asking these tribes to. John you think that promises like this are obsolete. Indeed they were when these treaties were negotiated siddhis Indians were not considered U.S. citizens. Indians got U.S. citizenship only in 1924 they were considered subjects of sovereign nations not the United States of America or the United States dealt with these Indian nations much the way we deal with Canada or

Mexico. I think in fact this particular promise represents not some important right that we ought to vindicate but a historical anachronism again. I want to see the Indians fairly compensated. But I think it's terribly important to move toward a system. Equal rights for everybody. India should have neither special privileges nor any disability. I don't think you want to deal with that knowing that it's there it's never dealt with. Indians are sovereign nations with the most subject people as victims as conquered try. And it gave them this this really pathetically inadequate reward for the suffering we have inflicted on them and that we're trying to steal it from them. It's as simple as that. Before 1871 treaties with the Indians were treated just like treaties with any other foreign nation they had to be approved by the Senate. Yes we did deal with them as foreign nations. And I'm simply saying that less treat everybody the same or at least less work toward a system where everybody is treated the same perhaps in an ideal world that would be

true. And that's what we should work toward. Although getting from here to there can be somewhat complicated. All right gentlemen we're going to leave it at that. I thank you both for being with us today. Thanks. Finally some thoughts on a different topic of violence that once again dominated the week's headlines this time. Five children gunned down in Stockton California. All around us it seems there are the reverberations of shattered lives so we could go in Madison. A troubled woman killed a friend and then herself a year ago this week in Madison. Two people shot down in the Dane County Courthouse. Each of these violent acts share something besides a kind of numbing echo of one another. Each was committed by someone whose early life was filled with pain. Each year in Wisconsin there are about 30000 reported cases of

child abuse. And studies tell us that our prisons and mental institutions alike are already populated with the victims of tormented childhoods who knows what echoes of violence will follow today's victims. Later in life. Recent events will no doubt serve to refuel the debate over mental commitment laws but tougher laws alone may not make us safe at home. For that we must also look inside the home and at the lives of children. Today in Washington George Bush began his pursuit of a kinder gentler nation. A good way to begin might be to pay attention to children to listen to them now. Otherwise we may only hear the latter day echoes of a painful past. Goodnight Joe. Goodnight Dave. Thank you for joining us we'll see you next week. Tonight's production of Wisconsin week is made possible in part by our

pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal Garber aeration providing reliable natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries. For nearly 40 years.