Wisconsin Week; 210

Tonight's production of Wisconsin week is made possible in part by a in our pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal corporation providing reliable natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries for nearly 40 years. No. Welcome I'm just north of Milwaukee. And I'm Kara Larson in Madison sitting in for Dave Iverson tonight on Wisconsin week welfare reform the governor's partial veto yesterday if you will gubernatorial fires probable candidate Tom Loftus is here and a vote to boot. Roxy from the Madison campus gay issues inflamed that debate and students on the Marquette campus don't like the restrictions imposed on them by their Catholic elders. Joe will have that story later on in the program. But first a look at a summary of the week's news Joe.

Thank you Carol. Late this week Congressman Les Aspin blasted the Bush administration for raising false hopes for defense cuts has been made a major speech in Washington Thursday saying talk of spending cuts in the 180 billion dollar range is just that talk as BN says actual spending reductions are far from being reality. For the first time in nearly 20 years the UW administration some in the full 20 400 member faculty for a vote this week they cast ballots calling on the regions to ban the Reserve Officer Training Corps from campus unless the ROTC stop discriminating against homosexuals. We'll have more on that later. County judge this week found there is enough evidence to bind a state lawmaker son over for trial on murder charges. Nineteen year old Chad Goetz of Juneau is accused of killing his mother with an arrow in an out of court settlement announced Tuesday the Milwaukee Journal agreed it made a mistake in firing Diane do the journal fire do from her job as newsroom secretary because of her anti-abortion activism. Do accepted an undisclosed financial settlement. After

negotiations broke down Governor Thompson was forced to decide how the Milwaukee Sorge district will charge suburbs for their part of costly sewer improvements. Thompson had to decide whether suburbs would pay based on property values or usage. Fired UW Madison football coach Don Morton has been offered a new job with the University this week as the athletic director of facilities he maintains his one hundred twenty thousand dollar annual salary and this week the regents voted on a salary cap of one hundred thirty five thousand dollars for the new athletic director. Governor Thompson Thursday gutted a Dane County Welfare plan authored by his arch rival Speaker Tom Loftus. The Loftus plan is an alternative to AFDC it would have cost about a quarter of a million dollars. Part of the plan called for no penalties on outside earnings. Thompson did approve a similar but less costly program for Oneida County. Back to Carol in Madison with more on this. We asked Governor Tommy Thompson to be with us for this discussion but he could not make it today with us is Democratic speaker of the House Representative Tom Loftus and probable very probable

challenger to Tommy Thompson in the upcoming gubernatorial race. Just how do you see Thompson's partial veto did he in a sense or did he not kill your reform package. Well I think he's being disingenuous with the phrase partial veto I think the impact of that is to kill the proposal which is unfortunate. We could have been the state in the nation that showed how to eliminate AFDC. It's a program that is anti family anti work and I think now a Republican program. You talk about NAFTA obviously anti-family and I were in your test pilot program. Children's income security supplement this is fairly new. This would be a package if I can review very quickly that would take all the benefits AFDC and lump them into a monthly wage that would not be affected by outside or you know under this program a woman would have to leave AFDC work in the private sector. However unlike AFDC she would be able to keep those wages. We would supplement those wages by a small amount for daycare costs. Then she would be able to

keep child support that was forthcoming. Unlike AFDC where she can only keep the first 50 dollars. So we just supplement the work and supplement the child support her income doubles our costs are cut in half. Sounds like I discovered penicillin. If however it's because the current program is so absurd if you work in the private sector on AFDC you know you're taxed at a 100 percent tax rate. So people are not encouraged Well if it were not encouraged is economically irrational to work the system it can no longer be fixed. It is it is a horse and buggy and I'm talking about a jet. In many respects the gov is wedded to this old idea he is a general fighting the last war the last war you lost. But Governor Thompson says that your jet is going to cost a lot more money than FDIC. That's wrong. It is impossible to cost more because under our federal waiver we can spend more. Secondly we only spend public dollars subsidizing or

supplementing work. And parental support. By definition our costs are about half of what they are. Furthermore it's a program where you have to leave AFDC you can't be on welfare. To transition. From poverty. Then the supplement melts away as your income goes up. So it is truly a transition from poverty. Now the kicker is that lack of health insurance is a barrier to getting off AFDC now. In this program we extend health insurance for one year with the eligibility of the people for this particular program to hire Is that what we know they out with they they we take the current FTC caseload. We go through and we say to those who now work even though it's irrational we have about 14 percent of the caseload work prior to the 100 percent tax on work that was put in AFDC by Reagan in 1990. We had the highest percentage of workers in the country about

25 percent. We take that group and we say you get a job even a part time job. And you'll be much better off than you are on welfare. So you're adding incentives here adding incentives but only a very rational incentive you get to keep your wages. Do you see the partial veto as a challenge against the program or a challenge against you well it's a political veto and I think it's quite petty and the governor's part. Obviously this is a Democrat proposing a radical alternative to welfare based on work and parental support. So we're working we're close to the race. You're on statewide television right now do you want to take a chance on. Well how close can I come to announce without announcing I want to come that you I'm pretty close to a fundraiser last night and but you don't take a chance right now. I am going to Iowa I will be a candidate for governor in the future and I will announce in the future and this this debate this view of a new idea versus his his

really fealty to this old idea is going to be a central part of the campaign. This is going to be an issue. And what we'll watch for the future. Thank you. As we heard earlier in the news the UW faculty this week voted to oust the ROTC program from the Madison campus unless it stops discriminating against gays. One former cadet at UW Stevens Point quit ROTC on that campus two weeks ago because it bans homosexuals. Nineteen year old Christa Richie's defection was coincidental to this week's vote it came when she was filling out an application for a full scholarship at Stevens Point. Krista joins us from Madison. Krista Tell me about filling out that application what happened.

They asked me all these personal questions and then they came up to the question are you homosexual. And it didn't faze me at first but then when I really thought about it I didn't understand why they asked me. I didn't think it was relevant. You are not lesbian yet you were offended by the question do you think other cadets feel the same way. I'm not sure if they feel the same way some of them do and some of them don't. Is your one action going to make any difference do you think. I think it already has because I think it makes made people aware of how the military acts. And what do you think the difference is. I think the difference is that people are going to realize that whether it's whether discrimination is against gay people or your color or your religion the discrimination is not right. What have people at Stevens Point told you have they tried to convince you to go ahead fill out the form get your college education it's going to be paid for what are they told you. Some people think that giving up the scholarship was a little much but a lot of people are behind me and saying that if you stand up for your values that's what's most important and what will happen to you now is your

college career now on hold. No while I'll get through. Somehow get through with the help of my parents OK are there other scholarships open to you. Not right now. What were you intrigued with ROTC to begin with. The military science classes looked interesting and so I started and it just became more interesting to me. And. There was more doors open to me. What's going to be the fallout from this are others going to follow your lead. Do you think I'm really not sure I know something. It's more in people's minds now. But I'm not sure if they're if they'll follow. All right. Your message then to the officials at the university and to those with Razzi. What do you want to say to them. I really think that discrimination is not something that should be allowed in the country because the country was founded on freedom and these people want to volunteer for the country and yet the country puts them in jail for their sexual orientation I just don't like it. Krista rich I thank you very much for being with us. Thank you. Now Carol has more on the razzi issue Carol.

Joining us for this discussion is Gordon Baldwin UW Madison a law professor representing ROTC and Joseph elder UW Madison professor of sociology and co-chair of the faculty against discrimination. Mr. Baldwin leading off of Christie's comments about the outside community. We're right down the street in Madison from the city the county and the state offices where the authorities have to see to it that this kind of policy would be illegal in the outer community in the community outside of Madison doesn't this make it difficult if not ironic for you to defend our viewers know there's no difficulty defending it. The program that we're involved in is perfectly legal the federal courts of appeal the federal law supersedes state law. Now the only issue that was presented to the faculty last week was. What to do about a policy that the regents the faculty senate the chancellor nearly all the policymakers in Wisconsin have opposed. The only question is What do you do about it. And I

thought that the policy of announcing a cancellation of the contract at this point was foolish shooting yourself in the foot. Ill advised you misguided but financially in every sense. First as Krista points out members of the armed services may not be homosexual they cannot be enlisted or commissioned some service is asked as a preliminary question. The Navy for example does not ask midshipman potential midshipman about their sexual preferences The Army general is doing the tearing. But the rules are quite clear and they have they've withstood constitutional attack the question is What does one do about it. The values it seems to me overcome the disadvantages. We have four hundred forty students receiving ROTC instruction in this campus 50 of them happened to be registered at Market and at the Milwaukee School of Engineering. One hundred fifty five are on full tuition scholarships. These are graded by the national government. So we have a lot of advantages to having them on campus as Mr. Baldwin has pointed out. We shouldn't be federal meddling with federal policy. Mr. Elder how do you feel

about messing around with the financial support of the UAW when the scholarships run hundred fifty five students and sort of a question at what price do you sell your principles. I think if there were a grant offered to the study center for the Study of oncology Here's two million dollars to study cancer but none of your faculty who are gay or lesbian can study it. If you turned out flat So you're saying there's no difference between departments we had it. What's the good for one is good for the other right and this is a policy which the faculty here in NC back in 1979. The regents enunciate again in 1987 it's been perfectly clear to the Defense Department that that our campus is opposed to discrimination of this sort. If I think there been any indication by the Defense Department or by the local Razzi that they were beginning to be concerned about the fact that they were in violation of a principle which many of us feel very deeply about one can be a little more sympathetic but there's really been no evidence of any change. Last December there was a report commissioned by the Defense Department. The main

substance of which was that they could see no reason why the Defense Department could not hire lesbians and gays. And the response. Recently was we will ignore it we will ask the group study it again. So you're thinking a faculty should kick the federal government from little Madison faculty should get together and kick the federal government I think at some point we have to say the clock is starting. We are serious about our commitment to nondiscrimination. The provision which we are recommending to the regents in the course they're free to do with it whatever they want is that we start the clock now. We say that if I may add one thousand nine hundred three. Discrimination hasn't ended at that time. We are requesting that the regents terminated contracts with Razzi. So there still are a number of years in which the defense or we could indicate some sensitivity on this issue. Mr. Bolden what Mr. Elder is saying is that we should set an example. I think there's a big price for example if for example we said that we were going to terminate a football program in 1993 unless things drastically improved improved. It is very unlikely that our recruiting would be very successful. We are recruiting for scholarship winners in the

ROTC programs from all over the country. If they feel that the program is not going to continue after 1993 they're not going to come here. Secondly we're competing for officers of the armed forces who would like to come and teach here are nominated to teach here. There are 21 of them fine quality officers aren't going to volunteer for Madison's campus in this they feel they're welcomed and will be welcomed after 1993. I think running the clock is very foolish of this ticket. What about the Board of Regents. I mean we're we're hashing over an issue which is going to end up at the top level of Van Hise hall when the regents vote on it. Mr. Elder you've been vindicated by the vote by the faculty but if it gets up to the to the top floor of an high is what's going to happen. They in a sense have taken a very strong and unambiguous moral position in 1907 the region said. That discrimination on the grounds of sexual preference is not acceptable in any of the polling has come out and said no we're not going to get well and unlikely we're going to take Razzi off camera. They they are caught in something of a

quandary they've made a moral pronouncement. There is a sector of the campus that is defying them. You know how do they respond to it. Are they willing to say well all right we'll let one group discriminate the rest of it out. Or will they say at some point this is in Congress that they have a section especially our federal government that's in violation of such a basic principle of fair play. We really have to announce that at some point. We won't allow them to continue. Mr. Bowman just a point of is this affecting only Madison if the regents vote to really of course have contracts with the armed forces primarily with the Army for most of the state college system so it would affect everybody. Presumably the regions would act consistently I don't think it's a compromise of moral principles. Joe was suggested that we wait till 1993 Well that's a compromise. I'm just suggesting a little bit further compromising to taking advantage of the opportunities that are given to a great many students. Crystal you have listened to this discussion. Do you have any final note on the compromise that they're talking about.

I think I think that right now this compromise is good but with 15 percent of the students point campus being gay that there's no right to discriminate against 15 percent of the people. Up until 1993 we're going to be hearing more about this probably sooner than that. Thank you all for being with us. While the UAW deals with the controversy over discrimination of homosexuals in the ROTC a private Catholic University here in Milwaukee is mired in its own controversies. Marquette University has come under fire in recent weeks over the termination of a faculty member who allegedly allowed a pro-abortion ad into the student newspaper. Administration officials subsequently refused to distribute another student publication that carried a condom ad. In addition Marquette officials cracked down on two student groups telling them to comply with the university's anti-abortion and homosexual rights position or disband. Professor demagogue fears all of this puts Mark Katz academic standing in question. And Administrator Francis Lazarus

defends market reminding critics that it is after all a Jesuit university Welcome to both. Let me start first of all with you professor. Are you overstating the case is academic freedom really at issue here. Well in many areas we have splendid academic freedom I took credit it's worth 18 years ago to believe in the Book of them were afraid of my practice to thoroughly in the teen years. I think these recent things are very unfortunate I think they're embarrassing to us all around the country I just had a call from Newsweek magazine they're interested in it it's not good publicity. But I think something good may come out of it. I think the real problem at market is a lack of communication between administration and the greater community for example. All of these statements that have been made with regard to the issues you mentioned in your introduction relate to Catholic doctrine. We have at Marquette one of the majors the only gets in the United States and in North America worth a hundred yards from the administration and they haven't consulted with us. And I feel what might come out of this before they begin to pronounce on what is Catholic doctrine and what it implies and obviously other universities see it Catholic see it differently. I think that what we hope we will get in the future is much better communication and

sit down and talk with us before they pronounce from their separate disciplines of the classics or political science or journalism. So what is Catholic doctrine you have some fairly literate people on that subject that hasn't been happening I think that in the future we may actually become a better university because of this controversy. Do you think so Dr. Lazarus. Well I think that market can very well become a better university because of this controversy. And I certainly appreciate the expertise represented by Dr. McGuire and his colleagues in the department of theology they are indeed substantial experts and scholars in those fields. On the other hand you know what we're dealing with here is the integrity of the institution. And I think there might even be something to be said about about expertise in that area. But let me ask you why is this happening now. Mark it doesn't really get its self involved in a lot of controversy but it seems to be happening now is it because a new president is going to be coming in next fall and you want to clean house you want to get things in order. No Joy I can tell you quite quite firmly that that's not the case when when you're dealing with questions of institutional integrity and you have to react to

situations that come your way you very infrequently get a chance to determine the timing. The ad was a spontaneous action on the part of the of the students on the on the market Tribune and our response came as a result of that particular stimulus and not on on the basis of administrative initiative the same thing is true of the student. Is this a way to let people know we are a Catholic university and while a lot of people go to market not because it's Catholic but because it's a good school. But is this Is this your way of telling you look we are first and foremost a Catholic university. I think we can be a Catholic university and still be a thoroughly good university. I'm afraid what's happening in the Catholic schools is that some 25 years ago rich Catholics that not usually send their children for example to Georgetown market a day and they sent them as the Kennedys did to Harvard and Yale and so on. Then the schools cleaned up their act in the 60s and became thoroughly good universities and made splendid statements. I'm afraid what's happening recently is I see a retrenchment and it's also embarrassing because I see the

retrenchment going on and what I've been calling the pelvic issues of Catholicism which were never central to its source and origin. And it's extremely embarrassing to me to say that our moral seriousness seems to be marshaled and we go to such strong actions as firing the young woman from her job over those issues which are not central in the biblical origins of our faith. I just don't have the right to say that even though you work for the university I certainly have more freedom to say that and I think students have a right within their own integrity to put ads about discussions of issues like abortion or homosexuality or anything else. There are and there are gay support groups on campus why doesn't that fit in with other organizations why does that have to be kept separate. The only distinction Joe is between is the distinction between support and advocacy with respect to students who who are trying to offer support to people who are gay or with respect to people who are just trying to find out about this who are trying to get themselves educated about this. There is no difficulty whatsoever with that difficulty arises when the university is put in a position of seeming to be

whether it is or not and it certainly is not an advocate of those. Kinds of activities which are clearly and distinctly against church doctrine. It's there and only there where the where the university's interest as an institution and where our integrity and our right to practice our religious freedom as we see it emerging is in question. What do you think this is going to do to admissions. I don't know that it will make so much difference rather than doing any that we've been doing pretty well. But again that issue of what is clear Catholic teaching that precisely ought to be brought over to the theology department and what you people ought to be talking to is more often because that is not at all clear. You know the words. I don't think Catholic teaching required any of these activities at all. And I feel the integrity of the university is in our asserting that none of them were necessary. This is an unnecessary Tempest and it has done us no good. It's a serious point how do you how do you smooth things over how do you make how do you make a good while. Well the first thing we do is we agree where we disagree and Dr. Maguire and I will disagree on whether or not this is an area of clear church teaching I believe it is. We simply disagree on that.

There has been and I think will continue to be enjoy a good amount of debate and a substantial amount of dialogue among faculty administrators and students at the University specifically about the issues of academic freedom and its boundaries. Yeah but why can't the university just say you look we don't endorse these but you know you have the right to go ahead and have your groups or print what you like in the paper Georgetown for example would not allow an Eid to be in the paper saying you may get abortions at such and such an address for such a price. But they have decided that they will allow the students to say there's going to be a debate on the subject just like in a fundamental school where they don't allow drinking they wouldn't advertise beer but they should allow a discussion of the advantages and disadvantages. And as a matter of fact Joe Marquette had the students chosen to raise this issue in the context of debate as an editorial story as you know Tauriel piece or as a news story there would've been no difficulty with it. You know here it is and am and that's the difficulty because that's advocacy. I appreciate both of you spending some time with us thank you very much. That wraps up this edition of Wisconsin we have yourself a good weekend good weekend good eye care.

Goodnight Joe Dave Iverson will be back next time on Wisconsin away week. Have a good weekend. Tonight's production of Wisconsin week is made possible in part by a in our pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal corporation providing reliable natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries. For nearly 40 years.