Wisconsin Week; 334

Wisconsin week is made possible in part by a grant from a NRA pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal corporation. This year marks the beginning of a in our pipeline company's fifth decade of providing natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries. I'm Frederick around here in Milwaukee sitting in this week for Joe Smith and I'm Dave Iverson in Madison here's what we'll cover on tonight's Wisconsin leap the legislature's joint Finance Committee wrestled with both the state budget and our old friend property tax relief all week. We'll have an update. Also tonight what will pending civil rights legislation mean for employers and employees in Wisconsin. And we'll wrap things up with some observations about why the legislature's quest for property tax relief tends to resemble Don Quixote tilting at windmills. Those discussions and a summary of the week's news all on tonight's Wisconsin week. This week the legislature's joint Finance Committee spent the day hashing out the state budget including dealing with

such items as increases in the sales income and business taxes. And the proposal for a special lottery to finance a new Milwaukee Brewer stadium is picking up steam at the Capitol. Many lawmakers saying it's a great idea. And the state senate this week passed a measure that prohibits employers from hiring replacement workers during a strike. The bill now goes to the assembly. Wisconsin can expect one thousand new jobs over the next five years. Land's End this week decided to locate its new telecommunications center in the county city. The new center should be taking phone orders for the 1992 holiday shopping season. Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin announced this week it would not accept federal dollars that would. It's a budget by more than 20 percent. I mean some 40000 patients may not be served. Planned Parenthood chose to forego federal funds and exchange for continuing to counsel patients on abortion. And in Taylor County the county has declared an economic disaster due to a slump in dairy prices. Two other counties in Wisconsin have also made

such declarations. They're seeking federal funds. Property taxes in Wisconsin on how to hold the line is a big issue for residents here. This week the legislature's budget writing committee took up proposals on the school levy. Art Hackett has been covering the joint Finance Committee this week and continues his series on the state budget. With tonight's look at property taxes we know it raising taxes to cut taxes doesn't work. So this was the week when special interest groups took to the airwaves urging voters to take a stand on property taxes. Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce said we stand by your governor involved people who care about education know we can't just throw money at the problem. That's why Governor Thompson has proposed a no tax increase budget with reforms that improve educational quality. It's time to say no to tax increases. Thompson would control property taxes with a tax credit funded with lottery money limits on salary arbitration for teachers and cost controls which would limit

increases in the rate of school spending to the rate of inflation. These spending limits can be overridden at any time by a voter referendum. The voters will always have the final say this time. Let's take control of property taxes and we will get another group including the state's teachers union had their own radio ad. They said the governor's budget would force school boards to raise property taxes. They urged sending a different message to the legislature. The campaign for tax fairness believes we should fix Wisconsin's tax system starting with the biggest sore spot the property tax. Your senators Gary George and Josey an esky are on the legislature's joint finance committee that makes key decisions on your taxes. Tell them you want property tax relief. Telling the rich should pay their fair share. I just got started. In the other direction. You know. This is this is the man behind the plan the teachers support and state senator Joseph

Leon a Republican from one package Leon proposes what is called a foundation plan for schools which take the biggest bite out of property tax revenues. This would limit the property tax levy to $6 and 50 cents per thousand. It now averages over seventeen. The state would guarantee enough additional money to provide forty seven hundred dollars per pupil a so-called foundation of state support. The price tag for this over two billion dollars over the next two years to pay for that Leon would raise the state sales tax of a penny and it would remove sales tax exemptions that have been given over the years to dozens of services everything from lawyers to lobbyists to interior decorators to dance instructors. Over the next two years this would raise over one and a half billion dollars in additional sales tax revenue. Just one day thank you. Wednesday morning Leon's plan won approval from a subgroup of the legislature's

budget writing joint Finance Committee. It was chaired by assembly Democrat Joe Winick This is this is a tax shift we cut property taxes but as I said there's no free lunch we've got to do something if we don't do something I'm predicting a property tax revolt in the state because we now people are four billion dollars a year in property taxes. But the sub committee vote was only five to three. SENATOR GARY George said the tax increases were too great and I think by raising a billion dollars in taxes we could very well drive away business from the state. We could very easily I think compromise our current economic position which allows a start to new budget with over 100 million dollars in the bank with the surplus. Senator Charles qualis said Leon's plan wasn't focused on those who need tax relief. But I just think we planned this it was too costly to get at the issue that we need to get out which is homeowners and farmers. As of Friday Senator Leon's plan had been changed a little but it was still

alive. Property taxes would be a little bit higher about 50 cents per each thousand dollars of value. Also attorneys apparently would get their sales tax exemption back. The prediction was if a vote were taken Leon's plan would get 10 votes before the 16 member joint Finance Committee. But as of 4 o'clock on Friday no vote had been taken. It turned into a contest of wills between joint finances co-chairs Sen. Gary George one of Leon's plan killed and was stalling in the hopes that would happen. Representative Barbara Linton wanted a chance to vote for Leons plan. I think that in the end we're going to see a very good package come out of the Finance Committee that's going to be very good for the people of this state. And I'm looking forward to that end result. If the blame is probably on anybody maybe it's on me I'm the one that they would like to see change their vote and I'm the one that's holding solid. Right that's where things were as of late this afternoon at the state capitol and we're joined now for an

update by two people who are playing an influential role in this Senator Joe Leon whose plan you've just been hearing about and state senator Chuck quality who has concerns about the plan has ideas of his own. Senator Lee on your plan has been a bit like the proverbial cat with nine lives this week it keeps Is it alive is dead is that alive as of this hour. Are you alive. We are alive do. And are you well and healthy. Is that is your plan going to make it through joint finance and on to the floor of the assembly. I think it is. We are very healthy right now. Time seems to be holding very well for my plan and I think it's because the alternatives to resolve the plant property tax dragon or the increasing property tax problem are very hard to come by that are any better. My plan is comprehensive. It's very bold it's got diversity will certainly help because it really is like these three M.K. legged milking stool where you have to have cost controls. You have to be concerned about educational quality and you have to obviously lower the tax to sell property tax relief. It has all of those elements and I think that's why it's alive and well and healthy.

All right. Chuck you are somebody who has had some sense of wanting to provide an alternative the Jolyon just has hasn't arisen yet. What don't you like about the Leon plan is that the sales tax increase that that place is too much of a burden on poor people. Well that's part of it. But first of all I want to commend Julianne for taking some leadership on this issue and being willing to differ with this governor and actually making a very serious attempt on this issue and I think that he should be given credit for that. And I support him in that endeavor. However I do believe the plan is too expensive we can do all of the three things that Joleon said and we can do it for about half the money if we would simply target our relief to homeowners and farmers who are the people who really need relief and then we wouldn't need those very large sales tax increases but also we would need some of the other increases which Joe has had to put in his plan because he's really had to go to every nook and cranny of the tax code to find money for the plan and we can do it much less expensively and get the same result. All right so so you're saying this plan provides too much help to those who really don't need it businesses and others.

Well a good example is that the business community has come out very vociferously against this plan and that's because they apparently And obviously do not need property tax relief they've already gotten the Yemini exemption line or energy aligning and the manufacturing machinery and equipment in our state is exempted from property tax unlike many other states. OK. Because of that and other reasons. Business really doesn't want nor have they asked for property tax relief nor should we give it to out-of-state people on condos on Lake Geneva in Door County. If we would target our relief to homeowners and farmers and not the Wisconsin Center in Milwaukee or park mall or inner concourse or in Madison we could get this really for a much lower price tag and I think that deals with the issue that's facing most legislators and giving them the most problem and that is the level of tax increase which is quite enormous under this plan. My second concern is that in the long run I'm afraid Joe's plan is not good for education. In fact the cost controls that he's put into the budget are even more stringent than the governors. And if we were learned anything as we went around the state as a joint Finance Committee we learned that the school districts and educators were very concerned that the governor's budget really hurts education and I think both for Joe and for

myself. Our bottom line is that we want education to be helped in this and not hurt. All right. Jolyon. You've had to juggle as a senator qualis suggests between a lot of competing interests even within the joint Finance Committee there are competing interests we've heard about the difference between the two co-chairs. How do you accommodate all of that how are you going to put something through that has some real meat to the bone. When you have to place so many political games. Well as you know David it's difficult the art of politics obviously is compromise but but my plan still has a great deal of meat on it. We've replaced some of those nooks and crannies of revenues that Chuck qual has talked about. We have removed the legal services from the sales tax that I would have originally put on the list because there are times when people absolutely need to attorney services that they wish they didn't have to pay for. And I think there are some merit for taking it out. We've taken the sales tax on trade ins of automobiles. Another one I think that hits the average family. But my plan still has hundreds of millions of dollars of

Lord property tax by using the sales tax base and certainly to get enough votes for any plan in the legislature you have to satisfy the combination of rural interests and urban interests. But the general overall interest of Chuck wollen Jolyon and throughout this legislature is educational quality. All right. We are we should probably all remind ourselves at this point that this is of course just the first step in the process. If this makes it through joint finance then it's on to the assembly and then it's on to the Senate and then it's on to the governor's desk. What are the odds that you're going to make it through not only this first hurdle but the three hurdles that follow. The problem that I see with Joe's plan is that already. Even though we are not through the first stages that already every time his plan gets cut back eliminating some of these taxes the amount of property tax relief goes down and I think at some point there's going to have to be a major decision made whether in joint finance or in one of the assembly or Senate decision making processes. But we'll have to decide can we afford this plan or should we go to a targeted approach where we can tax less and still provide the same relief for homeowners. Can we target relief

to maybe the first $50000 on a home or farm and make sure that those 50000 dollars are not taxed for schools. That's very appealing for many people in the Assembly and in the Senate as well. And we may get to that stage. But I think still Joe should be commended for what he's done. Some of us have some problems with what he's done but I think that the fact that he has been willing to depart from the governor which really does not have a good budget for education or for property taxes is important. I really just said one thing the governor's plan he calls it a no tax increases budget. It's a major tax increase budget for property tax. All right let's let's wrap up with a thought about the governor. Senator Leon you have taken a senator pala suggest a different point of view than that than the governor of your party. He has threatened to veto your plan so is this much ado about nothing in the end. If the governor is able to simply get out his red pen. No not at all. Governor Thompson would like to resolve the property tax problem as the chief executive of the state presented a budget he can't put forth a tax increase that doesn't have bipartisan support it has to start with bipartisan support. And my plan is no longer the ileum plan it's a strong

bipartisan plan. Governor Thompson likes the controls. He likes what's in there on the foundation concept because of the educational quality statewide. Certainly he's nervous about the revenue increases. I believe if a bipartisan legislature passes a broad based property tax relief plan that works that retains relief and is good for education the governor ultimately will like it. All right last quick thought from either of you. You'll work on into the night in the weekend if necessary as I understand it will you have a vote on this by the end of the weekend. Out to the floor after that. Well it may come before the end of the week and it's possible it could come Monday. I would hope that we would try to wrap up our action here today but quite honestly the governor and certain other people have kind of delayed action at this stage and I hope I think Senator Liane deserves a vote on his plan whatever happens to it he deserves a vote and I hope it comes today. All right Chuck Holland Jolyon have a nice evening. Thank you. With the

end the debate was down and dirty in Washington this week as lawmakers worked up a vote on a federal civil rights bill. Finally the House passed a version of the bill that would allow minority women and disabled workers to sue employers for discrimination. It's likely a Senate compromise version will be up for debate. But the basic tenet of any 1991 civil rights bill would move discrimination remedies from mediation to litigation. James Hall is the Milwaukee chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People chair of legal redress. He also is the Wisconsin delegate to the National American Civil Liberties Union joins us here in Milwaukee. James boken is vice president of government relations for Wisconsin Manufacturers and commerce and Mr. Boeken joins us from the state capitol Welcome to both of you. Let me start with you Mr. Hall. Do we really need a 1991 civil rights bill.

Yes we do. We need it. Specifically because of the Supreme Court in 1989 during the 1989 term. Issued a number of opinions which took away many of the rights and remedies that had been available to victims of employment discrimination race and sex and so forth for a number of years. The court just wiped out decades of advancement in that area and when the civil rights legislation would do is to rescore many of those rights and remedies and most of the remedies that this bill would restore have to do with damages sought in court. And I cracked. Well some of that. That's one aspect of it but it it's more comprehensive than that. Some of them are procedural. Some are substantive. By that I mean some relate to such things as

when you can bring in the procedures you have to go to to bring a claim. The forms you can bring a claim some relate to substantive issues. I mean so it's not just damages that's one aspect of it but it also relates to procedures for bringing claims and you would maintain that that all of this is unnecessary here in Wisconsin but there there is discrimination going on. Let me make a point about that. I think that in Wisconsin it's interesting that there is much opposition to the to this and I just lation I think that is one way of viewing it is when we look at the numbers the statistics in Wisconsin in Milwaukee and in our state obviously the largest minority population is in our state is in Milwaukee. The point is when we look at the unemployment statistics I believe that Milwaukee ranks among the high in the Milwaukee metro area ranks among the highest in the

country in terms of minority unemployment it's double digit unemployment. The point is. Rather than opposing this type of legislation I would think that the spirit in our state would be a far sighted perspective meaning one of recognizing the need for advancement and so forth in the areas of minority unemployment and in the end in the case of minorities being promoted to upper management and better positions. Because just to make a point because the fact of unemployment translates into many of the social ills that are affecting our community and which further translates into large amounts of state resources necessary to cure those. So. I think with or without this decision I mean the legislation the view I think in the Milwaukee metro area and in our state would be one of trying to promote the you know promote

what this legislation is about. Let me ask James Booker in Wisconsin Manufacturers and commerce is opposed to a State Civil Rights Bill what about the federal civil rights. Well obviously discrimination shouldn't be tolerated in the workplace or anywhere else. But that's not what this bill is about what this bill would do is institute a strict quota system. Essentially employers would have to adhere to a strict quota system in order to avoid the possibility of being of having a discrimination suit brought against them to the extent that there will be. Percentage of protected classes that are represented in their workforce doesn't conform to their percentage in the general population. So I think that it's the it's the procedural elements of this bill that Mr. Hall referred to that are most troublesome to us because it really goes beyond simply trying to wipe out discrimination and sets up some artificial some artificial determinations of what constitutes discrimination. Now the Democrats have said that they specifically have written out any measure of quotas you don't buy that it's

because the business of ensuring that employers attempt to ensure that employers have within their workforce a percent a proper percentage of individuals who fall into these protected classes because that is the central feature of the bill is really no way they can right out of the bill. The need for a for hiring quotas in order to avoid being prosecuted under the bill are and avoid a lawsuit under the bill excuse me. What's wrong with hiring quotas. Well I think that there are clearly artificial They don't take into account the way the workforce of the availability of individuals that perhaps fall into these of protecting protected classes their skills that they bring to the employer the place of employment whether or not you can find enough people who have the qualifications to do the jobs. And I think we have to we have to maintain some flexibility in that regard or we're never going to be able to compete effectively in a world economy. Here's how you're shaking your head this is not quotas. I think it's clear that it's not quotas. This is

what happened. The purpose of the bill is to ensure is not to set up hiring quoters the purposes of the bill is to make sure that minorities and women are treated fairly in the workplace and are not discriminated against Now the first bill that was proposed in the House did not while it restores these rights and remedies it did not specifically say it's not a quota bill and it didn't specify that it's now the bill that passed the other day. The fish amendment specifically states that it is not a quota bill and in fact makes quotas unlawful. Those in the civil rights community also oppose quotas. This is not a claim James Polk and what happens if this federal bill is instituted. Well I think you'll see an increase and in some cases frivolous litigation launched against employers because in part the bill doesn't even require you to identify specific instances of discriminatory practices. You just allege that all of the things that an employer does are discriminatory.

And I think that that's unfortunate. All right James broken thank you very much for Madison and quickly to you what happens if it if it is not instituted. I think if it's not instituted it sends a very negative message in terms of the promotion of affirmative hiring for minorities and women and hiring opportunities for minorities and women in this country and it is expected to be taken up in the U.S. Senate. Thanks very much and James Polk in Madison thank you. Tonight we return to the topic of property tax relief and why the legislature has such a painful time dealing with this issue we're going to get the observations now of two reporters from the state capital Dick Wheeler who has covered this process more times than he likes to remember. And Mike Archer who I believe is covering this for the first time at the state capitol that high honor and distinct privilege belongs to him.

Let's talk about why this is so painful Dick it's never a pretty sight. How come it's it's such a difficult thing this issue for the legislature to resolve. The issue is is local control which is property tax versus state control which is a state tax or a general sales tax. If the legislature tries to stop raising the property tax they must take away some of that local control. There are more vocally elected officials and there are state officials. And that makes it extremely difficult and it tends to ruffle a few feathers in the city fathers who think that they are the ones who know best for their own areas. You want your area goes ahead and does its own property tax they do things for their area. It's called communities of interest and they've done it for decades. What about the the lobbying part of this. I suspect that there have been lobbyists scurrying up and down those hallowed halls all day long and all week long they can actually balance the state budget with the amount of fees that the hobbyists are collecting this week.

That's correct. And Mike Brooks you wrote this morning that the Giuliani plan I think was like the proverbial Phoenix arising out of the ashes. And there are a lot of metaphors you can you can toss it at this one though none of it I guess is poetry in motion. But what's going to happen with the plan is it is the Phoenix are going to keep rising or not. I think it is I think it's gaining momentum. And. Representative Joe when it came from her own I. Have been horse trading for the last 24 hours in order to assure that they keep gathering votes and. Maintain the votes on the joint Finance Committee that they have for this. And they have been given parts of the plan. Back to conservatives in order to assure their votes. And they're gaining momentum. In the in the in all the years that you've watched this process is this the closest that it's come in terms of doing something meaningful in property tax relief are we closer than

than before in your memory. Well. I tend to disagree with Mike I don't think we're that close at all. The fact of matter is the governor's going to veto it if there's a general tax increase. So it's going to take 66 votes not 50 in the assembly and 17 in the Senate to pass it it's going to take 66 in the Senate. It's going to take. 22 in the House and the Senate. They ain't there folks it's not going to happen. This is a great idea and the the whole thing is comes down to a situation they don't have enough money to do what they want to do. And they can't raise taxes just a little bit. They're going to you know the idea is to go for the big shot and doing the big shot is going to happen right now and the governor will veto it. And so it makes great press. It gives Mike a chance to do his thing with words which he's very good at. It gives me a chance to make some money off of my clients. And when it's all said and done more will be said and done and for property tax relief.

You're saying that the voters in the end won't be the ones who will profit in the way the lobbyists and reporters may. Mike what what about what Dick says about the governor's veto pen in the end that's that big vote that counts how much will the specter of that veto I guess affect what happens over this next month. I see Democrats determined to do. Property tax relief. And put that on the governor's desk. And make him veto that and make him suffer the consequences. Of property tax increases over the next two years. And I think if it's not the Leon plan that that passes through the legislature it could well be the qual a plan. And that. That has some wiggle room for the governor. That plan could possibly be funded without a sales tax or an income tax increase. So the governor could then keep his promise to not.

Have a general tax increase and sign that bill. All right well we'll have to see where it goes from here we will leave it to you both have a pleasant evening I suspect you'll be there for a while at least we know it's June at the legislature you're both in your shirtsleeves an air conditioned building so have a have a pleasant if not cool evening. If we learn Mike our thanks very much. That wraps up tonight's edition of Wisconsin week. I'm Dave Iverson Thanks for joining us tonight. Goodnight have a good weekend. It was guns and weak is made possible in part by a grant from a DNR pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal corporation. This year marks the beginning of our pipeline company's fifth decade of providing natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries.