Wisconsin Week; 114

Oh. Tonight's production of Wisconsin week is made possible in part by a n our pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal corporation providing reliable natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries for nearly 40 years. I. Welcome I'm Joe Smith in Milwaukee and I'm Dave Iverson in Madison on tonight's Wisconsin league. The battle over gun control. Two weeks ago in Madison a troubled woman killed a former lover and then herself. One week later in California a man gunned down five schoolchildren with a semiautomatic rifle on tonight's Wisconsin we will debate whether it's

time for tougher gun control laws. Also this evening another emotional topic abortion. Then finally a review of the governor's state of the state message. First though this summary of the week's news Joe. Thanks Dave. Just what is the state of our state according to Governor Thompson who delivered his State of the state message Wednesday. Wisconsin is prospering economically. The governor is calling for a war on drugs. Additional incentives to promote state child care programs free college education for top grads a 4 million dollar upgrade at Mitchell International Airport in Milwaukee and two million dollars to develop the Southport marina in an ocean. But the Democrats were disappointed he didn't mention anything about property tax relief or state surplus. The Assembly approved an increase of 30 cents an hour upping the minimum wage to 365. An alternative plan by both Democrats and Republicans is in the works to head off a veto by Governor Thompson over in the Senate they voted to hold a statewide referendum in 1090 on the mandatory use of auto seat belts. Police in Milwaukee considering consider arson a strong possibility in a fire that swept through off campus housing Thursday

killing on market University sophomore and leaving eight other students homeless and pro-life and pro-choice advocates rallied across the state to mark the 16th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion. Recently the Supreme Court decided to consider a Missouri case in which that state declared human life begins at conception. There is discussion across the country and here in Wisconsin that the high court will overturn Roe versus Wade. Their original decision legalizing abortion. Joining me from Madison sever Austin who is the executive director of Planned Parenthood Association of Wisconsin incorporated. And here in Milwaukee Barbara Lyons executive director of Wisconsin Right to Life and welcome to both of you. I'll start with you Barbara. Do you think the Supreme Court will overturn Roe versus Wade. I think there's a good chance of that might occur. Certainly we're very happy that the Supreme Court decided to hear the Missouri case because it will set new ground rules we believe for abortion in the United States. I think that it's very speculative to think that they might make a sweeping reversal of Roe versus Wade although we were

all surprised by the very sweeping decision they made in 1973 creating abortion on demand for the full months of pregnancy and essentially obliterating the laws of 50 states in order to do that. Sever your opinion what do you think do you think that the Supreme Court is going to overturn that decision. I don't think they will I think that the Supreme Court is just as concerned about public opinion and the chaos that that would create as anyone. I think they can read the public opinion polls. And I while I think there may be some modification the law I do not think they'll overturn Roe. The surgeon general contends that if it is overturned it's opening Pandora's box and you're going to have 50 problems rather than one you agree with that. Well I think certainly there will be some degree is of chaos as there was when we had the 1973 ruling but we've had chaos as a result of other decisions. For example the Dred Scott decision. You know things such as the civil war in which we had no plan for what we were going to do with blacks once we need them free. So I think that there are solutions that we can come up with that might be chaotic for a time but I think that one of the key things is that we're going to have to be very

supportive of women in crisis pregnancy and we have been putting plans into effect to great more greatly assist those women we are helping them now but we think that more help will be on the line your organization is so strongly against abortion and shouldn't really be should they be providing that service of counseling and sex education now. Well we are providing that service right now and that is the point I was making was that we are going to be extending those services in the future because we feel that that should the court decision be returned overturned we will need that support for women we have it right now we need it right now but when you leave more than 70 if that decision is overturned and some abortions become illegal who's going to be prosecuted here is it going to be the women the doctors or the father who agrees that abortion should be made. Well the state statutes are very confused. Women are not going to be prosecuted the doctors would be according to current statutes. So we would need a major change in the statute which of course we would work for. But there's the

Wisconsin statutes basically need a great deal of change. OK what's on the books right now Barbara. Well right now there is a law on the books that says that abortion is a felony and a crime in Wisconsin except when the mother's life is in danger. That particular statute is an operative right now because of the 1973 ruling. But certainly if the Missouri decision were upheld the Missouri Missouri law were upheld just as it stands it certainly would create an opportunity to go into court to try to enforce that statute would it not also create an opportunity for those states that do legalized abortion those states become havens for women who want to have abortions. Certainly that's going to be a problem but also it's Rover's as Wade is overturned it would provide the opportunity to create a federal statute which would govern all of the states in the country and then we would not have that problem but isn't part of the decision here to return it to the states and let the states make their own decision. Not necessarily true. It would depend on what the Supreme Court would rule if they would just allow the Missouri decision to stand certainly would invite states to be able to have an opportunity to make abortion illegal but it would also provide the opportunity for the federal government to step in and pass a federal statute that would be governing off of

the states. What kind of defenses are going to be in place and sever maybe you can answer this. As far as Planned Parenthood is concerned what kind of lobbying efforts are you going to be making. I think what we plan to do is to show that the vast majority of the public and certainly in Wisconsin we know this to be the case support maintaining Roe v. Wade. A Harris poll done this week shows an increase in the number of Americans it supported. I think that we need to make that clear. I think those people who have been quiet about their support for Choice need to stand up now and I we're starting to get phone calls saying what can I do this really has gone further than I ever expected so I think we will be mobilizing people. We already are I think the tactics being used now by the demonstrators are irritating people I think that that that's turning around and will be publicizing all of that will certainly be working with people in Wisconsin with the legislature in case this happens. But I think that generally the American public is very very supportive of keeping our right to choice for women whatever one's personal opinion. That is how we feel as a nation.

Barbara you're getting on people's nerves so to the point where they they wish you would go away and. Believe what soever considers to be the majority of women who would like to keep Roe versus Wade. Well first of all I would strongly disagree with several public opinion polls we conducted a very scientific poll in the state of Wisconsin just a little over a year ago and that showed that 60 percent of the residents of the state of Wisconsin were favored restrictions on abortion except in cases where the mother's life was in danger or cases of rape or incest which which cost is probably about two percent of the abortions performed in this state. I think that the we see the momentum turning in our direction. I don't agree that the Supreme Court is going to look at public opinion polls I think that they're going to look at the legal basis upon which the decision was was based. And I think they're going to find fault with it and that will be the basis for overturning Roe versus Wade. As far as demonstrations are concerned there are very many groups that are out there that are involved in different activities. Wisconsin Right to Life is the largest and oldest pro-life organization in the state. And we have a long long history of working within the legal system to create change and we feel we're being fair successful in doing that.

And for Planned Parenthood along with those defenses and along with the people that you mobilize. Do you agree that that public sentiment doesn't doesn't matter in this in this case. Well I think it does I think there's a there's a mess with the Supreme Court is immune from from reading public opinion polls or being concerned about the impact of their decisions on the nation and on people on individuals. I think they I think they listen to that. I think it's important to say if I may that we're talking about a million and a half women a year here who are choosing abortion and they always have before it was legal they will again if it's illegal. I think the concern should be with the health of women and with the safety of women. We know what happened before it was legal. We know how many died we know how many were injured. We're talking about real women here who have made a choice. And I would hate to see a return to that situation. Barbara do you agree that that's probably what would happen if abortions did become illegal that people would be going out of state or even within state but the the old the back alley way. Well certainly some of that would be true but I think that the back alley abortions and that type

of thing has been grossly overexaggerated. I agree with sever that we have 1.5 million women having abortions but it also means that 1.5 million children have had their lives ended by abortion and that's really the key crucial issue here. If there were not a child involved who would care and who would be you know out working to stop abortion if there were not a child involved. And I think we have to look at some of the emotional damage to women as a result of abortion also we work with those women we know that the pain that they have suffered the choice they have made was something they did perhaps in a state of panic at a time when they were very vulnerable at a time when their support system fell apart because people were hostile to that woman. And I think that there are many positive things we can do to create a better environment for women in crisis pregnancy center. Do you agree that that organizations pro pro-choice organizations are not as organized as pro-life organizations in that you've got some catching up to do in the organization front that they've got. Well we're the difficulty is we're not single issue people working in this field there are many many things we advocate for prenatal care for quality care for children for early

identification of pregnancy. I have 90000 patients in a system to run where the largest Planned Parenthood in the country and I have to worry about making sure that women coming into my clinics are getting quality care. Most of the anti-choice groups have one issue. They're not running a health care system and they're able to devote their their resources and their energy to one thing I cannot do that. So I think we're very well organized planned parenthood certainly is a very old organization in this country and we have many we have in Wisconsin we have a strong coalition by I certainly cannot spend my entire time on this I have to worry about the health care of all of our patients right on. Yes I would respond that we also are concerned about the health care of women we are at we do have efforts in place to effect that. Also we are not single issue because we're very concerned about handicapped incomes who are denied life saving medical treatment. We're also concerned about the elderly in the comment those who are having their lives ended by not feeding these individuals and we're concerned about the advent of euthanasia in this country.

All right on that note we'll leave it Barbara thank you sever. I thank you. In 1985 the handgun death death toll in this country was about 9000 in Great Britain the tally was exactly eight. The gun control debate is simmering once again in this country with a string of violent crimes both here and elsewhere across the nation. Joining me in Milwaukee tonight to talk about this is Jim Fenty who is a lobbyist with the National Rifle Association. And in Madison University of Wisconsin dean of students Mary rouse it was Mary Ross's sister Catherine who shot her former lover and then herself with a handgun just two weeks ago. Let me begin with asking you this question. In the

tumultuous emotions that must have followed this tragedy in your family were you also left with simply a feeling of anger that your sister could have had a gun and had access to a gun and committed both a murder and then committed suicide. Most certainly Dave. And what has been running through my mind these past few days is the right for every child and every adult to be safe in this nation and I've come to the conclusion that that basic right the right to be safe is threatened by the large numbers of weapons that are accessible and easily available especially the handguns and the military assault weapons. But your number that's familiar with the argument that is people who kill people not guns and that no amount of legislation despite the tragedies that occur is going to prevent that kind of occurrence in the future. I do not hold the instrument itself the gun

responsible for these tragedies with within my family or other families but I certainly think. Beer availability these tragedies happen more easily and therefore you know I conclude that we must have stricter controls. There are about 60 million guns or 60 million Americans who own guns now as I understand it. You've heard Mary rouse say that that makes us less safe. Your response. Well I don't believe so actually your estimate is rather lol. There's approximately 75 million handguns in this country and well over 200 million rifles and shotguns and each year another 10 million new guns are introduced into our society you're not making much of an argument for gun control. Well we've studied gun control and when I say we I mean our country the National Institute of Justice the Department of Justice and several universities and all of them have come up with the same finding. Gun control doesn't work. It's rather ludicrous to believe that when a person is going to go out and commit a crime such as murder or rape and be subject to

that penalty that they would be at all the heard or concerned by any type of gun control ordinance. But isn't part of the point that we're not talking simply about murder and rape but we're talking about people who are who commit suicide who are fatally injured in accidents and so forth as I understand the statistics only a very small percentage perhaps one in 100 people who are killed at the result of a handgun takes place because of self-defense totally inaccurate. When you're talking about suicide we might look at your pad. Where people are not only prohibited from having any type of firearm they're even prohibited from having edged weapons yet their suicide rate is twice that of the United States. Recently the National Rifle Association prepared a booklet which was to be distributed in the schools to help educate children for prevent some of these deaths. We're very very concerned a word I don't want this to turn into a debate over statistics but I should point out that according to the FBI there were twenty two thousand deaths as a result of guns in this country in 1986 only 200 were the result of a self-defense action.

I'd like to jump in here again and I want to make my point over and over again and that is the right for all of us to feel safe as a parent. For me to think about sending my child to school in the morning and not knowing whether that child may return from school because someone who is mentally ill has picked up a weapon and sprayed the school yard and mowed down my own child this as well as other children for me as a parent of college students to not know whether one of my sons or daughters might be harmed by a gun. It's become very very scary. And that right to be safe which is fundamental to our social order is being threatened. But Jim offender I would argue I suspect Mr. offender let me go to you on this the guns in the end make us safer. Well I want to first contradict your statement as far as 200 deaths being self defense. That's totally inaccurate. And you must keep in mind that if a person buys a gun for self defense which is one of the most seldom used

reasons to buy a gun if they don't kill somebody with it does that mean the purchase was unsuccessful. Of course now we're just as concerned as Dean roust about the wrong people getting guns. But it's time to quit wasting our energies and quit wasting our monies. The NRA will spend tens of millions of dollars this year to try to keep this old buccaneer from having a shot shotgun taken away from him. Well I don't want to see something done that's effective but if I were telling us about the idea of friends not if your parents were Mr Fender if I might the kind of laws that you have fought so hard against like the Brady of and which was recently defeated don't have anything to do a duck hunting they have to do with things like a cooling off period of seven days. A bill by the way the Ronald Reagan the old cowboy himself supported so you're not just a party but it's a major piece of misinformation Reagan did not support the bill. And there were various flaws in this one of the flaws that we fought so hard against the Brady Bill is this. Let's take a walk if the bill had become effective and she would have

assigned one officer to approve or deny all applications. If Joe Smith would have made an application to purchase a gun and it would have been denied for some reason by an officer working for the department there would be no appeal possible. He would be night forever. This is one of the reasons that we fought it. Plus the with the cooling off period or the waiting period just doesn't work. The problem with it is that it's terribly expensive. We could spend millions of dollars that would otherwise put more law enforcement officers on the street. We're just doing some good. But why is this money would be so miserably to getting people like you and I because your country I don't know about the position and I won't presume to say for Chief sarnie what his position is but certainly many police chiefs across the country support gun control this is something that is not just the purview of the far left or right you're never going to let me jump in first of all I have no objection to responsible hunting whatsoever and I want to make that clear. The only useful purpose that handgun serves is to maim

or hurt other people. I have no use for handguns whatsoever and I come down on the side of law and order with the police chiefs and the sheriffs. Most of whom have gone on record in this country in favor of much more strict control of handguns. Guns are silent and accurate. Actually the National Association of Chiefs of Police was against the Brady Amendment. Many national police organizations fought alongside the NRA for its the feet and handguns are Jews primarily for killing. Let's try to find a gun is purchased primarily as a sporting weapon. It's used in part of shooting that used in hunting and many people who don't want to be murdered. Many people who don't want to be raped and mutilated in their home. Many people who are getting attacked right here in this city and where people are actually attacking their homes in broad daylight and hurting people are buying handguns for self defense. All right let's. And then let's return if we might to the topic of safety in the moment that we have remaining which is the note that

we began this discussion on. I'd like to ask you both this Finally how can we be more safe at home. Would a cooling off period for example Mary rouse be in your view of the Brady Amendment seven days make a real difference. I think it would make a real difference and I would have made a difference in your and I think it would have made a difference in my sister's case the tragic death of her friend I think it would make a difference and in most cases. So I support the Brady bill 100 percent. I also support more investigation of people who have applied to purchase these weapons. Mr. Fandy briefly if you would please your thoughts and how we can all be safe at home. Well certainly not through a waiting period that absolutely isn't going to work on the steps of the Capitol you can buy sex you can buy cocaine and heroin and you can buy guns. People just don't go to gun stores to buy guns. We could have total abolition of firearms in this country. There are so many of them there that the people who we don't want to get guns will always be able to get the Mr. offender a lobbyist for the NRA thanks very much for joining us

and Dean Mary thank you for coming to see you. Time now for our weekly roundtable we're going to take a look at the main event at the state capitol this week which was the state of the state address. Joining me to talk about that are WTMJ reporter Lynn Springer's who joins us this evening from Milwaukee was at the state capitol this week. And in Madison Robert Mack who was at the Capitol as well covering this for wy AC TV. Lynn let me begin with you on this. I think we were all struck those of us who watched the governor give this speech that this was a kind of different Tommy Thompson that we saw was someone who really was talking

much more about Democratic themes if you will than the traditional Republican business themes. It's interesting that you mention that because I talked with several Democratic lawmakers following the speech. That was the first point that everybody said he's sounding mighty democratic is any and is a matter of fact when you start hearing issues like the environment and daycare it's no surprise that perhaps Tommy Thompson stole some thunder from the Democrats in taking on those issues. The question now becomes whether Democrats will take on the Republican issue property tax relief. They said that was what that's what was missing from the speech this week. It's interesting the governor really didn't talk at all didn't even say the words Robert Mack property taxes. It's as if he didn't really want to get into those kinds of issues at all in this address. And that's really surprising especially as he mentioned property tax relief so much in 1988 in the state of the state rests and he's talked about the economy so much. I think there was a real split between social issues and economic issues where he talked about social issues and schools and and drugs. We've heard about programs that he wanted to propose for the next session. We talked about a drug

czar we talked about getting more parole not less parole no parole no probation three years minimum behind bars for people who are caught selling drugs on school grounds. But look at the economy we look back we looked at unemployment we looked at how well we're doing. There was a real split with social issues we looked ahead with economic issues we would be. Economic issues clearly must remain his strength so that he can really point to a strong record of achievement in that area and though he put forward that olive branch toward the Democrats and to social concerns is they not still going to to to emphasize Don't you think those economic things that have made him the most successful so far. Well I think at the halfway mark of his administration Governor Thompson is content that he has indeed made many many overtures toward the business community toward the property tax issue and perhaps he feels in the following two years he has some other issues that he wants to tackle but he already has a track record where economics How's that playing in Milwaukee What's your sense of the urban concerns to be addressed southeastern Wisconsin.

How is that how is that being experienced I guess in southeastern Wisconsin. Well certainly he did mention southeastern Wisconsin. There was mention of Mitchell International Airport some improvements there he talked about a two million dollar Marina project for the city of Kenosha Now that Chrysler is gone. But one of the things I heard from lawmakers here is specifics a specific urban agenda. How do we deal with problems that are unique onto the Milwaukee and Racine and Kenosha areas. Problems like juvenile crime problems like welfare. These are problems that are far greater here in the southeastern corner than they are in other parts of the state. They want to see specifics. Robert Will some of that be addressed next week in the budget address which is really much more of a laundry list of specifics than this sort of statement of symbols in the state of the state interest. You know I think we do have to differentiate between the two it's very much like judging a football game at halftime. This Friday evening because you're judging it before you hear the budget address and maybe the governor is an ace for a trump card for property tax and we just don't know it or maybe he doesn't he's working real hard this weekend. We just don't know and some of the specifics definitely we

can expect on retirement minimal wage these kinds of issues. You would typically expect in the budget to have this sneaking feeling that we'll be talking about those specifics next week in the weeks to come. Robert Mack in Madison thank you. Lynn Springer's in Milwaukee thanks very much. I'll be back with a comment in just a moment. Now that we have assess the state of the state some thoughts now on the state of the Capitol building in the capital city for the last six months work crews have been busy stripping away an 80 year layer of paint and veneer from the old assembly chamber along the way some unique artifacts have been uncovered. My favorite is the amount of gum scraped off of our lawmakers desk 20 pounds worth which of course prompts a new joke. Can a legislator vote and

chew gum at the same time. But as we scrape away the past. How about stripping off the progressive veneer that the capital city always likes to cloak around itself. Progressive Madison just got nine one one service this week. Only 18 years after it was first proposed. Green Bay on the other hand has had 9/11 since 1978 forward thinking it only took twenty seven years to get the four mile south beltline highway built. And now you've never seen a populous more giddy over a concrete. And then there's the convention center Frank Lloyd Wright first started this debate almost 50 years ago. Lacrosse in Milwaukee on the other hand just built them. The environment Well the Madison lakes aren't exactly a model of progressive ecological achievement are they. Somewhere it must be written that the more natural attributes your city has the less you do with them. Maybe it's time the capital city stripped off its glazed over self-congratulatory image and took a hard look at what's underneath and we might be able to do something more than just work our collective gongs and

accomplish dare I say it something progressive. Goodnight Joe. So Dave what city are you moving to now. Thank you for joining us for this edition of Wisconsin week I'm Joe Smith We'll see you next week. Tonight's production of Wisconsin week is made possible in part by our pipeline company a subsidiary of the coastal corporation providing reliable natural gas service to Wisconsin's homes businesses and industries. For nearly 40 years.