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[WPT theme] I could express that best with the statement made to me by a newsman from a Chicago newspaper whom I had met outside during the smoking period and his remark as the judges came out for rendering a decision and um my friend of the Chicago press turned around and whispered to me. He said: look at, look, look at their faces. Guilty as hell. A hero, a court martial, and a fight to restore honor in the case of Lieutenant Colonel Harry Fleming is our cover story. The mysteries of love, research and the Golden Fleece are the subject of our second story. We'll have a report on man's closest look so far at the secrets of Venus. We'll meet author, teacher and food critic Herbert Kubly Frank's fearless forecast turns white. The feds fight against dangerous toys, and a point of view from Superior. Hi I'm Jeff Clark. Welcome to the December edition of Wisconsin magazine. Guilty as Hell. That's what the Army called Lieutenant Colonel Harry Fleming after a court martial him for collaboration

with the enemy as a prisoner of the North Koreans. Fleming came home to a hero's welcome in Racine Wisconsin in the fall of 1953. By the summer of 54 he was in solitary confinement at Fort Sheridan Illinois. Later to be stripped of his rank and privileges, honor and dignity. I was furious when I saw my friend in the condition that he'd been put in for 90 days. And and when I saw what had occurred to him. And to see this man reduced to the whipped dog that he was that day that I went down and found him in solitary confinement. I was angered, of course. And I never lost that all through the trial. We had a young man in the camp on the North Koreans that was very badly wounded. He had a leg that was practically shot off and no medical attention at all. And gangrene had set in. And the doctor said if- if- if his leg isn't amputated why

he's gonna die. So I went to camp commander and told him that they should get a doctor in there and amputate this boy's leg. That the American doctor said so. And finally he said no they couldn't do anything like that. I said well if you furnish us with the necessary things that are needed for an amputation my doctor will do it. The American doctor will do it. He said OK we'll do that. So he he gave us uh a butcher knife and the thing it looked like a hacksaw and some kind of a medicine that put the man partially unconscious and he the doctor amputated the leg. The man lived and the man had all the courage that any man ever had. They decided they'd move the camp so they put us on the road again in the late late spring. It was still snow on the ground. And this boy just couldn't make it with his crutches and as weak as he was anything else although he was coming along beautifully. And he lagged

behind. And one of the guards killed him. Harry Fleming came to Racine in the summer of 1948. He was a Major in the US Army who acted as adviser to the local Reserve Army units in Racine. From the summer of 48 until early fall in 1950 Harry and Gladys Fleming spent their time making friends and becoming active members of the community in Racine. Then the army cut orders for Harry and sent him to help the Allies in Korea. Gladys stayed behind to wait for his return. Within three months Harry found himself held captive by the North Koreans. He was a POW for three and a half torturous years. And as I said I don't remember what the incident was that got me in the hole. It could be any one of a million things, ah sassing a guard or anything at all. Anyway the fact remains that they put me in the hole. And uh it was about six feet deep and not wide enough

or long enough to stretch out and you could sit down with your chin up or chin up under your knees. And I was there for several days. I don't know how long. And ah as I say it was in the in a place where they had the guard company was there and I guess they thought it was just a lark that they'd use the hole that I was in as a latrine and they did for several days. I don't remember coming out of it. I was unconscious when I came out. When Harry returned to Racine in 1953 he was a physical wreck but his spirits were high. He and three other POW's for Racine were given a royal welcome, treated to a parade, and on their way to the memories of most people's minds. But then something happened that made Harry Fleming a national figure. The army brought charges against him for collaboration with the enemy as a prisoner of war. When Harry came home he thought his troubles were over. They were just beginning. I had gotten word from a friend on the local paper that Fleming was not at where I thought he was. But was at

Fort Sheridan in confinement. And when I heard that I went down to Fort Sheridan and had great difficulty getting to see him. And when I finally saw him I could hardly believe what had happened to him in the time that he had been held at Fort Sheridan. He'd been a prisoner of the Koreans and the Chinese for over three years and they had never really broken his spirit. But the 90 days or so that he had been held by his own government had really broken the man and he was whipped and he was willing to do whatever the army was going to do to him. And I saw a man [unclear] or something around 100 pounds with a post-Korean prisoner look. He certainly was on the rocks. His counsel was there and I was told that he was the property of the government and

the public were to be excluded from anything that would happen public way until the trial which is going to be three days later. There wasn't much that could be said outside of watching a prisoner lay in bed and withering and crying for help. After I read the article in the paper I contacted Fort Sheridan and some of my counterparts in the judge advocates core there. And so they set up a meeting for me and Harry and I talked to him and it became apparent very after a very short time that he was indeed in need of help. He had an appointed defense counsel who was probably very very capable a very able man. He made no bones about the fact however that he was from the Army's civil branch. He had told Harry that he thought he was guilty but he would he would defend him to the

best of his ability. This bothered Harry and I guess it would bother anyone to have your defense counsel start out by telling you they thought you were guilty. So I asked Harry if if I could be of any help to him. And he was looking for help. He didn't turn down any help. Harry got into trouble because of some propaganda broadcast he made for the North Koreans during his first 18 months of captivity. The camp commander of the Korean camp commander took me one time about oh a mile from where we were to over to the caves and there were about 13 or 14 prisoners American prisoners in there that were from the Seventh Division. And they were living in this cave that was wet and mud and water dripping on them, they were soaking wet and had been there for days.

And they let me talk to them. And then they took me away. The deal I made was that they would get those men out of the caves if I would make a broadcast and I wouldn't do it. And every day he'd take me back to the same men. And where there were 14 yesterday there'd be maybe 12 today and I still wouldn't make the broadcast. And he'd bring me back again. Finally when I got down there were what 4? 6? 6 left. I finally made the broadcast. The rest of [unclear] just died. They took them out. Yeah six and they took, put these six in my in my compound where I was a senior officer and every one of them at my court martial were witnesses for the defense. I think that the army was overreacting to this unknown factor known as brainwashing. To me that was the attitude that I saw in the way they

approached this case and it seemed from beginning to end they were going to make an example of Harry. The charges were very weak. Some of them were ludicrous. The first charge that they brought I thought would set the tenor of the entire trial. He was charged with stamping out of the foot of a corporal when they were first loaded on the trucks when they'd been captured. The Army brought the corporal in, he was sworn in, he testified, he didn't remember anything about it. The trial was something I had never seen before. It was dramatic. I remember on one occasion they stripped Fleming to the waist and showed his wounds to those who were gathered and about the only noise you could hear were the clicking of the needles as the wives of officers who were permitted to go to the trial as was the public knitting as

they thought well there but for the grace of God is Joe. I felt the Army was under terrible pressure if you remember at that time. McCarthy was alleging all so many things against the Army trying to show that they were weak on communism. And I didn't realize that at the time. But as I look back or look back years ago it was obvious to me that the army had to react someway to the situation and what they did was I felt at that time was pick somebody to prove that they were hard on their own. Harry Fleming was found guilty on September 22nd 1954. He was sentenced to be stripped of rank and privileges and dismissed from the Army. Well the entire attitude of the court, the questions, the

manner in which the prosecution was presented, everything about the court martial indicated that we were all going through the motions and Colonel Fleming was going to get it and he did. I could express that best with the statement made to me by a newsman from a Chicago newspaper whom I had met outside during the smoking period and his remark as the judges came out for rendering a decision. And my friend of the Chicago press turned around and whispered to me. He said: look at, look, look at their faces. Guilty as hell. Now that came from a press [unclear]. That was the verdict. Guilty as hell. I've sat on a general court myself many many times and I know that the attitude of a court martial is that the man would not be brought to trial if

he were not guilty. That was always my attitude when I sat on the court. And I could see that reaction among the officers who were sitting in judgment. Harry Fleming appealed his conviction. But in 1957 he was dismissed from the Army after his final appeal failed. In poor health and without work Harry and Gladys Fleming moved to Florida and began a new life. When I came out of the Army on my... What? 60th? 50th birthday I had a new life. I had to I had to make some beans and bread that was for sure because you don't save very much money in the army. And we came to Florida and I was fortunate in getting a business where there was a little bit of money involved and I would have had with that. I forgot about the rest of it. And I think it's been like that all the way along. I look back and I think well it would be nice if such and such a thing hadn't of happened but it has happened.

And I've got to face it. So we'll go on from there. We had a good life. We never sat around and felt sorry for ourselves one bit. We were too busy and too occupied to do that. I don't think it's made us bitter. I don't think it's made too much difference in our lives. I think that the thing I felt most of all was his lack of medical benefits because he had many things all through these years. Various I guess about five or six serious operations which could be traced back to the difficult difficulties that he had under as a POW that were the basic causes of these troubles. And that to me has always been rankled more than anything else the fact that he these were caused by that POW time. Yet we got no compensation for it and we were busy earning a living and it wasn't hard to start all over 50 years of age and and earn a living. And then we had to pay all

these medical expenses ourselves with no help. And while it didn't make me bitter it certainly made me feel that it was a very unjust treatment. People forgot about Harry Fleming. But then a new movement to help him began in the 1970s. President Carter's attitude towards clemency was a big factor I think that got everybody thinking who was interested in Fleming. It actually started out with Ralph Trower the newspaper man a columnist in Racine. We were around when the Harry Fleming trial took place in 1954. And at the time that [unclear] and I talked President Carter seemed to be pardoning everybody in sight. You know those who had gone to Canada, deserters, and people who have been let out of the army for various reasons and so we got to wondering you know all these years there's been nothing out of Fleming we've wondered would he make another try so I said well I will call him and see. Trower kept writing columns calling for clemency for Harry Fleming.

People in Racine kept after the army and the government with petitions. Congressman Les Aspin took an interest. And Alan [Gramsa?] now a federal judge filed new briefs. In September 1978 the renewed efforts paid off. The Army review board ruled Harry flowing should be given an honorable discharge from the Army and his rank and privileges restored. I think I can speak for most of the people in Racine in saying it makes us feel very good. It broke my personal losing streak at 134 causes I supported which went nowhere. I've had a lot of reaction from people some of whom remember Harry and some of whom don't. Justice finally has been done. And the Flemings? They have a love affair for the people of Racine. We're both deeply deeply for grateful Deeply grateful for all that they did and we're just waiting for the opportunity to visit Racine and meet them face to

face just as many of them as we can so that we can thank them for being the kind of people they are. First of all we love them all. And from the things that they have done for me over the many many years that this has been going on I'll forever have my heart full of gratitude to them. I could name maybe a thousand names of people who worked really worked for me and I thank them all. And I hope that in the few months ahead that we'll be able to get up there and talk with them and get together with them. I would live in Racine. I'd go back there and live if I could. The doctors tell me I need a warm climate. And that's the only reason I'm not back there. I... It's a wonderful city. It's a wonderful community. And unfortunately I have to live down here.

It's really something. Harry and Gladys Fleming will come home to Wisconsin when the weather turns warm. They'll be returning to a welcome that no one can take away. Three years ago Senator William Proxmire's first Golden Fleece Award felled an 84,000 dollar grant given to UW psychologist Elaine Hatfield for her research on the subject of love. A book based on that research has just come out in spite of a press release fired off with a Fleece award that said: Not even the National Science Foundation can argue that falling in love is a science. If they even if they get the answer I wouldn't want to know. I thought the great thing about love is its mystery. and the fact that scientists have an evaluated way to measured it. You know maybe something would be left to the poets the songwriters. If we all think about our own lives you can debate intellectually and say should there be such research? Does it destroy the mystery of love? But when you start talking to another

person about them and I say OK look at your own life and think of the times love has made you absolutely miserable and when you just didn't know what to do I think that then we start to see by reflecting on our own experiences ah yes there's a lot you can learn. And in my life I certainly have gotten very different ideas about what men I like and women just by living. And it's sort of nice to transmit that to other people. Well the poets and the songwriters and Lord knows the movies have had a go at the subject of love and haven't done much to clear up the mystery. So the social scientists decided to give it a try. Three years ago Elaine and G William Walster went ahead with a book on love. Undaunted by the loss of an $84,000 grant dropped after getting Senator William Proxmire's first

Golden Fleece Award with a colorful press release. People magazine called Senator Proxmire a fiscal nit picker and suggested that the Walster's marriage reflected their know how on the subject of love. And the University of Wisconsin Senate censured the senator. Today the book is out, the Walsters are divorced, and the senator hasn't changed his mind about the study although he admits there is something people can learn about love. Well it's interesting. I think they can but the people who are who gone over this particular study that we sited that by and large the peer groups have agreed that it's almost worthless. Well I think that's something that people that [unclear] look at love can judge. How do you judge if something's any good. I can think of three ways. One. People that are doing active scientific work in the field. Do they think the theory is a good one and that their answers are knowledge of humans. Probably that's not something that it's easy for people to judge. Are the questions that are asked

interesting? That anyone can judge and so consider some of the things that that we've talked about like how do you meet someone say you're a divorcee and you have to hire a babysitter to take care of your children. How do you meet someone to love again? Or questions I get from others. My daughter is in love with this terrible man. He beats, he takes dope. But she still adores him. Why? What can you do? How can you break it up? Or if you go to any Alcoholics Anonymous meeting you see people sitting around saying what's wrong I just don't feel the same way about my wife. I feel kind of neutral to her is that normal. Well you can say oh that's a beautiful mystery and we wish it not to explore that most people I know are interested in those questions. Elaine Hatfield as she's known since her divorce says that people have such an abiding interest in the subject of love that even after three years the specter of the Golden Fleece returns with a visit from the senator.

Usually when he comes to a football game I'll get a call from a TV station like next week 60 Minutes is coming here and they'll have a little clip in which he says something and announces the research and I'm supposed to go down and say I'm not either incompetent. [Proxmire talking with people in the background] [Proxmire talking with people in the background] Either as public relations or public service the Golden Fleece has captured the imagination of his constituents. Well I was very concerned about the tremendous waste that I saw on all sides and we got some terrific examples of this. So we had a contest amongst our staff as what we would call this and we decided to call it the Golden Fleece Award for the most outrageous example of wasteful spending during the preceding month throughout the federal government. And believe me we've had lots and lots of candidates. News releases dispatched with the awards are clearly written and sometimes satirical often lyrical

language. Proxmire honed in on this direct style in his first award. So National Science Foundation get out of the love racket leave that to Elizabeth Barrett Browning and Irving Berlin. Here if anywhere Alexander Pope was right when he observed if ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise. But the senator takes the Golden Fleece Awards very seriously. We don't just take a catchy title and give them a fleece. We go into great detail is that what they're going to do with it. And what the justification is for it. What the people who are studying these this kind of thing in another section of the country think of it we checked with people at Harvard to check with people at the University of California. We checked with with many other university experts and other people on the outside to get their views. And our conclusion was that on the basis of everything we've seen it was something that just could not be justified. I would have any objection at all if people wanted to study this or anything else with private money but not with the taxpayers money.

I know you suggested that Playboy fund research on love but the problem you get into is when if private agencies were willing to fund that sort of thing and they're really not that's that's just passing the buck is that they push for certain kinds of results often. And I think Playboy's definition of where marriage and family should go is not necessarily the definition that we might want to come out with. And I think that you want independent studies on love and marriage. You don't want them funded by agencies with some sort of axe to grind. Proxmire is chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee which keeps an eye on the National Science Foundation and space agency among other research agencies. I have a responsibility to check and criticized and challenge their spending if I don't do it nobody does it. And those little $10,000 $50,000 a $100,000 expenditures add up and by dramatizing that disregard now people feel that taxpayers money doesn't count. It's fountain pen money somehow.

Some people feel that this is generated an anti university, anti intellectual kind of mood or supports that sort of feeling. Do you think it does? No and I'm really really surprised at the reaction in the university. I was censored by the University of Wisconsin faculty for instance on that very first award we gave. Now I think it's ridiculous for universities to feel that they can't be challenged. They ought to believe in freedom of speech and freedom of criticism and after all it's the taxpayers money we're talking about. We're not talking about an individual spending money anyway. We're talking about taking from the generality of the people and spending that money. And I think they should be challenged to defend it. And if the if we're wrong I think people will understand that. These are articulate people they're intelligent, well-educated people who can express themselves. I'm sure that any institution including University of Wisconsin there's more discussion of love and sex by both sessions by young men and young women and faculty and so forth then there is of any other subject. What's the question your students ask you most often. Most of the women are tied up in

relationships where they're suffering and they tend to code it as: Why do I fall in love with men that are cruel to me. That's the most common question. What's wrong that I can't like someone who is nice to me and keep picking out a really cruel man. The problem men have and I think it's cuz they're just starting to sort of enter into an era of men's liberation is all of their girlfriends say you're so closed, you don't express your feelings and emotions. Tell me what you're thinking or learn to express your feelings. And then they say that they do but they instead of expressing I love you or I'm going to be a big success they say I'm really frightened that I can't keep up with the other fellows and really I'm not very confident about my own sexuality or something. And the women get really repulsed and so they the men say they're encouraged to be open and then when they are they really get slapped down and they'll not do it again cuz it's too painful. What do you hope that the book does ultimately down the line. What

I'd like to see are people thinking more rationally about romantic love. I think for the first time we recognize how important intimacy is and this has become both an incredible research area and incredible Area of personal concern. Hatfield points out that she has worked on National Science Foundation panels herself and says the grant procedure is tough. First a committee of experts screens out 85 percent of the requests. This is followed by a review by the Ethics Committee. Finally it goes to a third committee that reviews all the areas one against another. That procedure which is called peer review sounds better to me than Senator Proxmire saying my buddy so and so Schwartz who happens to be a political scientist doesn't like your proposal. That seems not such a great procedure. How do you feel when you got the Golden Fleece Award? Well you know I know how I'm supposed to feel and I know how I do feel. How I think the

tour people feel as if you're going to make a contribution to society you're always going to stand a little bit outside of society and everybody gets criticized and that's what life is like. In fact though I think all of us are babies and it hurts our feelings when anybody says they don't like our stuff. And so I guess I'm as much baby as anyone else. But Proxmire maintains his investigations are thorough going and defends his investment in that by pointing to cuts in government spending. The first year we made a review of what the effect of the Golden Fleece Awards had been. In two thirds of the cases the programs were either discontinued entirely or sharply cut back. So we feel that we've saved millions of dollars at a minimal cost in staff time to the to the American people. So we think it's well worthwhile. When you get the kind of study LEAA did for instance. Law Enforcement Assistance Administration. They spent $27,000 to find out why inmates want to escape from jail.

The Department of Agriculture spent $47,000 to find out how long it takes to cook breakfast. You know they got TMUs or time measurement units of 1/30th of a second measuring how long it takes to crack an egg and so on. And those are just a few of many utterly ridiculous kinds of studies and some of them very costly. The new Senate office building the Hart addition. Now we need to we need needed that like a hole in the head. It was utterly ridiculous for Congress to spend as much as they're spending. And so the colorful senator from Wisconsin will continue to hand out his Golden Fleece Awards. Psychologist Elaine Hatfield will continue her studies on the subject of love. People in the media will keep reminding both of that first award. After all, love is a provocative subject. The loss of small research grants isn't likely to generate much hot debate or resistance from the academics. Elaine Hatfield says educators might grumble about the heavy hand of government but they won't leap into the political arena afraid to forfeit some other

important research. Our technology story concerns a flight to Venus. Admittedly that's a little off the beaten track for Wisconsin Magazine but the success of the Pioneer Venus program depends partially on an experiment created here in Wisconsin. Magazine's John Powell has this report. This is the Orbiter Space probe. It was launched last May. I's on its way and it will go around the planet Venus on a large elliptical orbit. It will look at the planet. The second space probe, the second spacecraft is really a series of probes you see four of them here a large complex one. And three smaller ones which will be released into the Venusian atmosphere and will descend all the way to the bottom. This looks at the planet from the outside. This one really looks at the planet from

the inside. And we're particularly interested in this one because the equipment which was built at University of Wisconsin is on these three small probes. Within the next two days. scientists at the University of Wisconsin and around the world will have the results of man's closest look at the planet Venus. Venus is the closest planet to Earth yet we don't know much about it because of its thick cloud cover. Scientists believe the clouds conceal a lifeless waterless intensely hot world. NASA has launched two space probes designed to unlock some of the mystery surrounding Venus. It's a complex project. The first probe, the Orbiter, will circle and take photographs of the planet for eight months. The second the multi-probe will send scientific instruments into the atmosphere. One of the experiments aboard the multi-pronged was designed and built by a team of University of Wisconsin scientists under the direction of Verner Suomi director of the Space Science and Meteorology Center.

Our main concern is to learn how planet's weather and climate operates as a system. You need to know what makes the climate act as it does. In a manner of speaking. We need to know where the planet's thermostat is why it does what it does. It's pretty clear I think that this has to be treated on a global scale. And having a chance at some other planets gives us a way to test some of the notions we have that might be applied to the earth. It should not be misunderstood that we need to do this in order to understand the Earth because if we had no other planets we would have to do it all with the earth only. But having these other planets gives us a different set of conditions. So if are equations work well on the earth they should work well on the other planets too. This may seem like a lot of trouble to go through to get an interplanetary weather report and it is. The UW portion of the project will measure temperature as the probes descend

through the atmosphere. The device itself may be the Solar System's toughest most expensive thermometer. It has to withstand temperatures hot enough to melt lead, cost nearly a million dollars, and took 3 years to make. I would say this is probably the most difficult space piece of equipment that we manufactured and this high temperature is the reason for it. You have a model of it. Yes I have the two pieces here. This is the part which fits inside one of these little probes and probably gives you some scale of how big it is. But the business end of the instrument is this little device which I'm sure you cannot see. The little tiny temperature detector on this side and on this side and you see windows on it. These windows are actually diamond because they allow both heat and light to come through. And as this enters the Venusian atmosphere it flips about the rate

which I'm indicating here. And these measurements are telling me back to earth and in December when the whole affair goes on we will then calculate these things to give the amount of absorption and radiation as the probe descends through the atmosphere. The UW experiment is one of many aboard the multi-probe. During the last 20 minutes of the probe's multi-million mile flight an enormous amount of information will be transmitted back to Earth. Scientists will spend months perhaps years studying that data but say they don't know at this point whether or not the project will have any practical payoff. The program as a whole as I understand it cost about 200 million dollars. That's a large amount of money. It's equivelant to about a hundred mile days of superhighway. Whether or not we benefit we will just have to wait and see. Scientists aren't promising dramatic results from Pioneer Venus. But the flights could

help them understand the greenhouse effect which makes Venus so hot. That's important for the people on this planet. Increasing amounts of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere are creating a greenhouse effect here. Herbert Kubly is one of Wisconsin's most prominent and prolific living authors. But what is he known for in his home state? His ability to identify a pecan pate, the secret of a green salad or a superior salmon. Certianly never expected to achieve any distinction for eating. It seems rather plebian way to establish a reputation. But a lady in Michigan recently wrote me a letter she wanted to know how heavy I was. Eating is incidental to Herbert Kubly. He's a playwright, award winning author of fiction and nonfiction, and a teacher. He's been a journalist and music editor. But much to his surprise he's gained recognition in his home state through his column in The Milwaukee Journal's Insight section Dining Out.

It just became very popular and I were talking [unclear] [background talking] I'm sorry what? [unclear] and there was no question of an anonymous review. At work usually with two or three guests who order different entres...[audio cuts off] maximum coverage of the menu. Someone will order [unclear] things I like most and I don't get it. I never mentioned it. How do you evaluate something like a pate? How I enjoy it [unclear] I know [audio cuts off] parsley [unclear] and some black pepper. [unclear] duck livers could [unclear] be combination of the two. So he has

...send things back in restaurants? I hate to do that. I mean the spectacle of doing that. They don't know who I am. That doesn't matter but um, those creates a situation which I'm uncomfortable in. But I have done it. A good review from Kubly means customers. A bad review can be disastrous. His column elicits a lot of mail sometimes from the restaurant's loyal clientele. I was obviously wrong. But I usually speak of the fact that I've had some drinks. How do people react when you reveal yourself at the end of a meal? Oh very strangely. I mean, some people just fall apart. Waitresses will collapse in tears. On the other hand I would much rather be known for what I think are most serious works. Do you cook? God, no.

I sometimes... vexed by the fact among certain circles [mumbles] reputation in Wisconsin was based on that. Calls for meeting people frequently I meet people cocktail parties or who when I was with you Mr. Kubly oh you're really Mr Kubly and so glad to meet you. I read everything you write and then I think oh this is fine, a higher degree of literacy than I anticipated. And they'll say I look for you every Sunday in the Journal. [laughs] That happens quite often. Kubly is a cosmopolitan fellow and his writing has been based primarily on his life in the big and exciting cities of the world. But he's been drawn back in recent years to his ancestral home in tiny New Glarus, Wisconsin where he writes now on the family farm. Would he have written if he'd never left home? I don't know that. I suppose so. Faulkner stayed at home.

Flannery O'Connor. But I on the other hand I feel the writer has to ah... leave his roots. And in my case come back to them. So I like to be outdoors. That is fine but the other disadvantage of course is getting involved in farm things like today. You know all hell broke loose this morning. I hadn't here for two weeks and all these things that were needed attention. This isn't always that way but it's sort of the prevailing atmosphere. I think that's one of the of the um one of the prices you pay for making this choice living here. You're not in San Francisco or in New York is that you have to provide your own stimulation. sort of hack it alone and then you really do have to occasionally go off someplace and recharge the batteries. Racine, Wisconsin may not be Paris or Rome but his writing seminars at the University of Wisconsin

Parkside appeared to engross and sometimes excite the professor and Herbert Kubly. So I think we will just break into some discussion of this. The idea of this is a really quite stunning. He was making a list and then his thoughts of assets, liabilities It was when Kubly returned to the tranquility of Wisconsin. That he was approached by what he describes as a solemn group of Milwaukee Journal editors. They said they want me to do this column. And I said You gotta be kidding. Impossible I know nothing about that. You know I could experience books and theatre. Films even. Music. Art. Anything. Not food. [mumbles] [continues to mumble]. Do you ever give restaurants a second

chance? Yes. You know one of them that I did do was [Steel Pages?] in Madison. That first The first experience there was so devastating that um a lot of people wrote me. [mumbles] You know, you were so cruel. It's a good restaurant. I went back. It was really a very little better the second time. Service and the appearance of food are important to review. While I think it's very important in this looks very very nice.Yes, isn't that lovely. I don't know... attractive. I think it is ketchup. Why don't we taste it? First guess is ketchup. As the leisurely round down, Herbert Kubly had some other thoughts on food. [mumbles] for instance, you go to northern Wisconsin, you know that is considered an American [unclear]. And I think that's very dull. But then there are a lot of awfully good things

[mumbles] I wouldn't [mumbles] Herbert Kubly has a new book coming out based on his experience in Switzerland, a tie to his cultural and ethnic New Glarus roots. Fearless Frank Seacrest [?] braved some stormy weather this month to make his usual trek to Devils Lake. What he found out when he got there proved his string of good luck had run out. Well wasn't this just a beautiful idea. I mean look how enjoyable it is here now. Thirty mile an hour winds, a foot wave the wind in the trees. The scud scraping the [audio cuts out] Beautiful place I love it. In any case the two things that amaze me about all of this is you know. The first thing is the fact that well but it can change so much in such a short period of time just one month.

And I guess the other thing that amazes me is that I set this foolish precedent about you know walking in the water. Well let's get at it. Well OK so it's December right? And what did everybody think about in December? Well of course snow. But there hasn't been all that much right? And I thought not being the dumb head where am I going to find snow? A ski slope of course. Jim there's just one question I have to ask you and that is what are the ideal conditions in weather for skiers or for somebody in the ski business? I think the ideal weather conditions are for temperatures somewhere

between 15 and 25 degrees. Of course a nice sunny day is the ultimate. Those type of conditions give the skiers the best best lightness. Gives us the best temperatures to groom snow and to keep it in good shape. And what about snowfall? I mean when do you like the snow? How deep? What type of snow? We'll take all we get. That's a good response I like that. No, natural snow is always a godsend. We love it. It's a... We can do a lot with it as far as mixing it with man-made snow and getting a good base for skiers to ski on. What are the probably the worst conditions that you can have during a snow season? The worst conditions would be a wet snowfall.

Probably that was preceded with a little bit of sleet and then it continues to snow and doesn't slow up to try to keep the streets passable for traffic with the sleet underneath to keep get the sleet off of the streets. And then keep the snow plowed in addition to that. So if I want to make the ideal storm for you it would be sleet first and then snow like crazy so it would build up so fast you couldn't keep track of it and then bring the wind in and drift. Drift it all over the place so you'd get buried in your trucks. That would be the worst condition. I don't think I'll do it to you but it would be fascinating to see your response. And you say it's going to be mild or average type winter? I would make that prediction. And what has Frank been telling you all along? And so now we come to the part where we look at what the weather's going to be like for the rest of the winter. And to do that I talked to Reid Bryson a professor in charge of climatology at the University

and he's very happy you know with forecasts that the turnout for November was mild rainy in the West Coast and not much snow and worked out that way. And what did he say about December and January? Well I'll tell you. First of all as far as Wisconsin is concerned it looks like a pretty mild December and January. And the storm tracks it seems are going to be a Alberta type flows that go across the Canadian border and they bring us a little snow but remember not much and they keep us with the mild temperatures and then brief cooling periods. And in January it looks like the storm track will be up the East Coast which means of course that New England will have a lot of snow and probably cold temperatures but it will leave Wisconsin mild again and probably the West Coast relatively dry. Well if we're going to have a mild winter that's fine but if you want to check it out why don't you come back and see us in January and then you'll know for sure if I'm right. Dangerous Toys are a threat to children. But in the wake of the government's regulation of the toy

industry they can also be dangerous to the financial well-being of small toy companies. At least that's what Magazine found out when we took a look at how effective the government has been in making toys safer for kids. Do you see that roofing nail on the end? The only function of that nail is to hold the mop head on but it's hidden and it sets a terrible hazard. This was banned almost [unclear] Something like this doesn't have to be subjected to very many physical tests. You can tell by looking at it. Dangerous toys like these are taken off the market by government agencies. Julia Dolphin works for the consumer products division of the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture. It's analogous to the federal government's Consumer Product Safety Commission. Julie had showed us some other toys she has helped ban such as a set of wooden blocks colored with lead based paint, stuffed animals with dangerously protruding wires, a baby rattle that

obviously could endanger any infant. And a toy truck capable of amputating a finger or toe due to a design defect. It's a responsibility Julia says is necessary because children are special consumers. When it comes to toys you're dealing with a special consumer who really isn't able to protect himself perhaps as well as you or I. We have the freedom of choice and to decide for ourselves if we wish to use something knowing what the hazards are but it's hard to label something for a 3 year old who can't read. So we probably take a much closer look and are more particular about subjecting an article for a baby or for a child. To to banning procedures. There's little doubt that regulation of the toy industry has made toys safer for children to play with. But actions of the Consumer Products Safety Commission have forced small manufacturers out of business. A case in point the Marlin Toy Company here in Horicon. The toy

in question: the flutter ball or the birdie ball. [unclear] explains. We had a little plastic pellets in here that would create a nice little sound and motion when the toy was being used. Well, they had decided that should a child possibly ingest those pellets it would be harmful. So we received a notice telling us to do something about it which we did. We removed the pellets at great cost to us. You recalled all those. We recalled yes we had to recall yes which was very very costly. So we removed the pallets. Complied with their request. Put it back on the market and then came the banning erroneous banning. What did the banning on the second banning say? that was... It said th flutter or birdie ball without pellets. And you see originally with flutter ball and birdie ball with pellets. So wthat created a great deal of trouble for us. We had to recall. We lost our Christmas sales and it was just

horrendous. A lot of small toy companies like Mrs. Maloney's went out of business at the hands of the Consumer Product Safety Commission during its early years of regulation of the toy industry. And the man behind Duncan yo-yos Flambeau Products President Bill Sauey says it's a problem caused by too much governmental interference. The case of the Marlin Toy Company... is a serious sad case. It's a case where again lack of mature judgment on the part of the Safety Commission jumped in thought they were serving the best interests of the public and therefore stopped or banned the toy. Now this is a problem that we have to deal with government regulatory agencies that I have no concern at all with what's going to happen to a business. The only concern is to try to fulfill their regulations and then those regulations are at fault. The toy manufacturers say let us police our own industry by testing toys in an independent laboratory before they are marketed.

This will save money for the consumer and the manufacturer. Now the Toy Manufacturers Association have devised their own plan and we were very strict and very stringent in our own standards. And I think we policed ourselves very very well. So I think in many cases they might have been overzealous. Now when the CPSC first came into being I, I was a terribly hard thing to happen to us because it didn't put us out of business. I would prefer to see an industry related type of agency that was supported by the industry and with government consent so that the industry could govern itself. When the government regulations come in they have so very little understanding of what manufacturing is all abou. The people that are in these agencies have very little understanding and so they end up learning an awful lot of the tremendous expense not only to the manufacturers not only to our tax cost but also to the cost of the

consumer and what they buy. Marlin Toy Company has gone in other directions due to their financial troubles with the CPSC bannings. They are now involved in the manufacture of electronic components for a variety of uses. But there may be a day in the future when Katherine Maloney is again in the toy business. Mrs. Maloney says however it won't be in the near future. With all its heartaches manufacturing toys is a lot of fun and my heart course is still in toys but I cannot see it because at this particular juncture I'm able to get back into toys. Marlin Toy sued the government and won. They are now waiting for Congress to appropriate the settlement money. But even though the government has made mistakes the people we talked to say the net result has been safer toys for kids. Safer roads and bridges are needed by Wisconsin's most northern city. That's Superior's point of view as Magazine's Andy Halper discovered this month. Superior Wisconsin is over my left shoulder. This wooden structure does little to bridge the

gap between it and its twin city Duluth Minnesota. Superior residents also feel somewhat disconnected from the rest of the state. I spoke with Mayor Bruce Hagan about this. Sperior is a city of about 33,000 people, it's the second largest city in the state of Wisconsin area square miles one wise. That's 45 square miles. We're the fifth largest port in the United States as far as tonnage of commodities is concerned and it's basically a working man's town. We have the only shipyard on the Lake Superior portion of the Great Lakes and it's basically a waterfront port city. The most recent or most common thing that's mention with regard to feeling neglected is the highway transportation system that connects us with let's say the rest of the state. Highway 53 is a two lane, I call it a road but it's a US highway. And it's two lane until you get to the Rice Lake or Haagen area. Basically what the problem is is the U.S. 53 or I-94 extension has been improved to a four lane

expressway to that point. So the last 70 miles are you know the old term 40 miles of bad road and it is. It's a it's in terrible shape. It's in dire need of improvement or reconstruction. And that we feel would connect us with the rest of the state. But roads are not Superior's only transportation problem. One of the two bridges that link the city with Duluth Minnesota is not what it should be. We have a new bridge a relatively new bridge called the Blatnik Bridge which carries approximately 25,000 vehicles per day at maximum. But it's receiving it more than its share of traffic. And there are problems with the bridge being closed or else impeded traffic due to the fact that there have been unreasonable amount of accidents on that bridge which has stopped the traffic and so forth. There's another bridge called the Arrowhead Bridge which is an antiquated wooden structure. Very interesting to look at but

not very functional. And it's a drawbridge type of affair where it has to open for the boats. It's outdated and structurally unsound and we are seeking federal assistance and state assistance through the states of Wisconsin and Minnesota to reconstruct the Arrowhead Bridge. That's a 60 million dollar project. Superior is the most northern city in Wisconsin. Its residents are somewhat sensitive to the view from the south. Sometimes in speaking to people from the southern part of the state we hear them say: where is Superior? and we'll say it's north most norther tip of Wisconsin on Lake Superior and they said well we've been up north all the way Wausaw or maybe Eau Claire or La Crosse and that to them sometimes is north but sometimes people don't realize or that we are part of the state of Wisconsin. We have sold the out houses and the igloos and we have electric lights and flush toilets so you know come on up and be welcomed. Just how fast and how safe your next trip to northwestern Wisconsin will be may well

depend on how many state and federal dollars are spent on Superior's transportation problems. At least that's Mayor Bruce Hagen's point of view. If you have an opinion you'd like us to know about right to Magazine 8 21 University Avenue Madison Wisconsin 5 3 7 0 6. I'm Jeff Clark. Join us January 4th for the next edition of Wisconsin Magazine. Well OK toward December right. And what does everybody think about in December? Well of course snow. But they haven't been all that much right. And I thought not being the dumb head where am I going to find snow? A ski slope of course. Jim there's just one question I have to ask you and that is what are the ideal conditions and weather for skiers or for somebody in the ski business? Well I think the ideal weather conditions are for temperatures somewhere between 15 and 25 degrees. I of course a nice sunny days the ultimate. Those type of conditions give the skiers the

best best lightness gives us the best temperatures to groom snow and to keep it in good shape. And what about snowfall? I mean when do you like the snow? How deep? What type of snow.? We'll take all we can get. That's a good response. I like that. No natural snow is always a godsend. We love it. It's we can do a lot with it as far as mixing it with. Then they just go on and get.