Union Maids: Interview with Producers Julia Reichert and Jim Klein

There's sometimes a tendency to ignore the role that women both as workers and as wives of union men have played in helping to build the labor movement as early as 1830 for women textile workers in Lowell Massachusetts struck against wage cuts they proclaimed as our fathers resisted unto blood the lordly avarice of the British ministry. So we their daughters never wear the yoke which has been prepared for us. These girls march through the streets of Lowell singing Oh isn't it a pity that such a pretty girl as I should be sent to the factory to pine away and die. Oh I cannot be a slave for I'm so fond of Liberty I 75 years later in one thousand nine 20000 shirtwaist makers mostly women struck for three months against intolerable conditions in New York City sweatshops. Most of these girls were Jewish immigrants. They raised their right arms and took the old Jewish oath. If I turn traitor to the cause I now pledge made this hand wither from the arm I now raise. In the 1930s other women stepped forward to take their place as leaders in the struggle to

organize unions. Union made a new film produced by feminist filmmakers Julia Reichert and James Klein has the story of three such women. Kate so via And Stella today on Mother Jones We'll hear excerpts from union maids. Kate Sylvia and Stella telling some of the highlights of their organizing experiences along with the women stories will have comments by the filmmakers why they made the film what they learned from the process and how it affected them personally. Well the 30s has always been to us sort of interesting time because we always hear a lot about the oppression and it's actually a time when most of the labor leaders around today were formed and we realize that we knew very little about it. And we happened to read a book called rank and file by Allison Allison's and it had stories of all sorts of rank and file union organizers who worked in the 30s. And it was really exciting. You know the women

particularly in the book were really. Right out there and very courageous and also had a lot to say both about being in use and also about being women. And so we looked and we found where they lived and such and talk to them and it was really through the experience of talking to them and hearing their own personal stories so we decided to make the film. How did the women respond when you first approached them with the idea of making a film about them in their lives. They agreed immediately I think because they feel it's important for younger people today to know something about the history of the 30s and they probably told their stories a lot over the years. And they also were aware that there's been a reawakening in the interest of women's history and so they will probably agree immediately to do it they were happy to do it. The women who tell their stories in union maids come from varied backgrounds but they share things in common. They all were born in the early part of the century. They reach their adulthood in the 1930s. More important they are three of

thousands of Americans who were active in the labor movement. They were militant fighters together with other workers they fought to gain control over their labor and their lives. Most of us don't know much about the early union days about how and why unions were formed or the strength and size of the union movement. It's a part of our history that has been lost to us or kept from us. In this program taken from the new film Union maids. Well we call that history the sit downs and the strikes. The struggles to form the CIO in the 1980s the work of the unemployed councils. We'll hear about the unique strength of women. But mainly we'll hear the very personal recollections of three people whose lives were part of creating this history. They were radicals of their times. Where did they get their ideas partly from experience as they went through as children. As a tall I was brought up on the farm once my older sister a younger sister and brother.

And it was a crime in Michigan. My folks rather poor. And I finished high school with my older sister. And if you didn't work he really didn't you know you didn't get to eat. We were growing healthy kids and my father used to say well if you don't want to just don't eat and the family said well we don't get that from my friends and I were to get that I'd be so far left at all socialist predation. And I remember my father. And when you grow up you have to be a speak up and go to rallies. And he said if you go to work and Benford Union showing it's no matter what kind of any union is better than none. And if there is an organ. And I think by. The end. Teacher the.

SAN at. The end. This is. The 1930s saw tremendous militancy and courage on the part of working people. This was before the time when bureaucrats handled Labour's relations with owners. Millions of working people took things into their own hand their weapons the strike the sit down their fists when necessary longshoreman started the San Francisco General Strike. Auto workers sat down for days in Flint Michigan. And in Chicago the Republic Steel strike was climaxed by the infamous Memorial Day Massacre. But the most significant development in this

period was the struggle to form the CIO. Katie from Iowa. Sylvia from Louisiana. And thank you for Michigan. They are from rural area with their families to try to find a job. And. It was the onset of the Great Depression. Three young women were drawn to the great city of the Midwest Chicago. Back to.

Grab you by the hair. Say. Oh. Shit. Where we were when you first got sick I would think I was just.

You know it's like another world you know it's like imagine what people feel like when they go to the mall. That's the way I felt at all. You know I was brought up in a small village and had been to Kalamazoo but never anything this large was rather overwhelming. You know very very much impressed in one way that scratched the sidewalk to see if the grass would grow here now the story you're the youngest of the three women still appears shy and reflective. She has four grown children and now works in an office. She and her daughter were at once the oldest and youngest members of the Chicago women's liberation Union. How old were you. About 17. Since the 7th did you go to work right away. I try to get a job working in the stockyards and the suggestion I go there because I've had experience and I paid more money you know than most places at that time I guess it was thirty seven and a half cents an hour for women. Fifty two cents for men it was a 15 10 hour differential. I decided that I had to go to work I came here to go to work.

So he is a woman who projects great pride in her white Afro crowns an energetic face. Today Sylvia is still an active organizer. She headed the Angela Davis and Wounded Knee defense committees in her city. And I went the nearest thing to where I lived was a laundry called Great Western laundry and all black women and poor whites worked in this laundry. And I decided to go find jobs so I went one morning in the mail and hired everybody and he called me up and he said you have to have a job before in the laundry. I said no he said we'll be hiring experienced help so you don't have to wait. There was a broom factory right close to where we live and they were in the slums of the West say Kate is nearing 70 years old. She's white haired barely five feet tall and she appears frail but when she recalls her girlhood in the coal fields her voice strengthened her hand sweep the air with great power. She looks us straight in the eye with a fierce steady gaze. At these times it's easy to picture her as a young woman.

And my sister said Katie when you go to look for a job. I was 15 I think. Don't say you tell them you're 16 so I came to the factory to Mrs Howard our guys are 16 years you're too young. Sorry I'm back home the next morning I went back. Because I know no one wants to go you know I didn't know any other place to go I didn't know the city. And he called me up and he said goodnight tell you yesterday we're not hiring anybody any experience of us in a case like that the next one I came back again the next day I went to the macaroni factory and they said how old are you. I said I'm 17. You're too young and he looked at me and I guess he said that I hired anyway that Ronnie and he called me and he said listen I'm going to hire you but if you don't do that work I will have no compunction about firing out fire you just like that. They had a bent upon the office and the women's and we'd wait and I'd have to have the steel wrapped up in those newspaper and bad experience so I raised my hand. She said Where did you work hard on the farm.

But you didn't work in any stock. No I didn't but I could do it. She's OK. She looked me up and I said you know I was 17 weeks and so forth and she says no I start tomorrow morning. That's what happened I went to work in the cook room. How did you feel about the work at first. Well up I'll tell you why because it was very monotonous. You start to stop you know stood up in one place and just stay there and then you are told You can't talk and you didn't talk quite margaritas. And friendly sort of person and I try to talk and I think you want to keep your job. You don't talk you just do your work. I don't know what that heard about it over the bar blacks may have had an adult life I don't know. But I got a job at Byron black and they put me to work in the department that made many dispensaries and apathetic supports and I hadn't the least idea of what the step was really made of all

the you don't know what they were you know I had no idea what it was. And I doubt if either. We're back talking about the women in the office for a shocking thing that's what I was working on. I'm up. And I was just working my self to death just going so fast and there were poor women working on two would shake up the sheets I would take out the small pieces and shake them sheets and I mean the Powells and pillow slips and the other woman would make up the tickets you know and bag up the things that did not have to go through the mangle to the wife and blacks to different times of the whites and blacks the different kinds of work and make different kinds of pay. Also it was already 1930 when British things began to get very very bad. So they call a meeting of all the Carmody He's an assistant barmaid at which the new superintendent announced that due to the economic situation there will be a

layoff of possibly 50 percent of the employees and no mercy is to be shown to anyone. Now each of you knows who is the fastest worker and the best worker in your department and therefore it is up to you to pick out who is to stay and who is to be laid off. Does anybody have anything to say and I thank them. My gosh Katie and your customer sponsibility zapper of your radical you can't but that I double back and just keep your mouth shut and be a coward. So I left my hand. After that. I protest and everybody voted yes shock. So they decided they were going to hire a boss and they hired a white woman and she was going and I said Now I don't know how we can work you know

we've been here two years three years and they have to have a foreign lady. Then it certainly seems to me that one of us should be the Foley he's going to bring somebody in off the street who doesn't know the work here we've been here doing it. So I think that that we should just not the law got to give them what should we do. I submit. Just stop working and then when I comes up we'll tell him that we don't want God to be for a lady when I'm going to work under. So we shut down the mangoes and this time when I came up the stairs we didn't put them back on. So people with some pride. What's going on what's up. So when I work I want to talk to you don't talk to me. Start the mags are not this time. So he came over and we got in around him and we told him that we were going to work with the phone lady now he could put on the table that had been some shake I would never take one of us to be there for a lady. And the police came and had it been like today I suppose somebody would have been killed because we fought the police so I

wrote an article to the daily work telling them what they were going to do and I asked them to send me I think about half a dozen or seven or eight topics whatever it was. So I cut out the articles I bought to send text and as I went from one place to another I would stick this article that I had written I also put one up in my own department. So by the time I got back from going to a phone number I would be partners. When I came to my own department it was better. Somebody had shut off the machinery at the electrics which was at the end you know and one of the women was standing up on a table. Nobody was working. And one woman but up there reading the article listen to besmirch my proudest gifts was printed in the newspaper. And that's a bad. Yes somebody cares. Isn't that wonderful.

Just look at this rate as you know and if you read the article really somebody is not interested and as somebody who cares what happens to us the woman who was the personnel director was from some Eastern college she had that particular kind of an accent and she said Catherine. We have a feeling that you're very happy here and we think it's best that we sever all connections. Here is your pay. So I was fired. This woman was on the floor below and this is where they made the hot dogs. She would have to push them either and then whatever happened she pushed or put something in the machine was going to chopper and I just cut her finger tips you know. And this friend of ours Petey was working there. She says she said something that I watched how could they do that they should have safety guards and all these you know because we talked about safety also. There should be safety guards so this shouldn't happen. And. At that time people

lost fingers and limbs and got no compensation because I wasn't workman's compensation there was not unemployment compensation so we talked about all these kind of things of course that was rather revolutionary in those days. Well that night a bunch of us got together and we wrote out. A leaflet on this and came out with certain demands and asked the women the next day that not to operate those machines until the company was sure of us that they would be safe guards. And I don't know if the details may be hazy but I think what happened is we did get to work the next day and gave these out. Or left him around in the washrooms and had a like a sit down. Everybody stopped working the whole planet heard about it but they hear these buncha women actually organize and stuck together and they spend about PV and others who are inside got other women together women who work there a long time or other and you know and very well right up the foreman as they are sworn said. You know and polish whatever English you know you

know I was like thanks so much. A few years later I received a telephone call from the young woman who was my closest friend. And she says Katie danced. She said man that man. She says we are in the union were on strike and I'm having it I said. This. Week next.

Week. I'd like to hear about how the NFL was structured what kind of people would belong to it. And then after that why was you wanted something different from. Where the concept was organizing crafts and to improve the conditions and the pay of the craft workers. Like for example what would that be where you worked. Well it would be possibly the skilled boners you know all of the electricians. Plug the plumbers carpenters I know of and there weren't that many of them and they didn't have their own yet have their own do you. Right but they were separate and they're actually separate units altogether with many women in those unions. None at all. There were no electrician women there were no crap at all bail altogether male right and one of the things you know that people should know about if a ballot that time are set in the area the stockyards

they're actually controlled by the meatpackers. That's where C armors of arsons and for them to have given in to the idea of organizing the unorganized and threaten their position and their party. First of all they would have to give up the cushy jobs people who are officials here on the bureaucracy and secondly they really have to go out and you know work for improving conditions so for them that the meat packers home owners are owned. The union lock stock and barrel here know we would just that given they would be taking away their profits and fact this was confirmed later on when we did organize the CIO and their organized goons actually goons Stivers to shoot at March or March and others bend down ahead of the stock hammers and beat him up with a baseball bat and his farm home. Not only routes more than once in a long way so do you think that even the more skilled workers and more long range have an interest in working together with the less skilled workers.

Now they found that out. They sure did because when they needed support they got it from the UN or from them. Probably rest of the workers in the shop because it didn't make sense to set up the carpenters wanted to improve their lot even if they were strong enough and went on strike for the electrical workers electricians to be working and everybody else. Right. That's you know that's ABC nowadays but at that time it was we can't oppose this whole idea of. Instead of having this kind of organization vertical They have a horizontal organization National Organization for the everybody would be organized in one local. I've got a guy working on the assembly line where we took the birds. We call them but you know the shop it isn't all the knots about the carburetor and we have a double line going so I said then it came easy to me I could always use my hands and it was no problem but it was a white woman to get her name out of the house like she was a young Polish woman who said you

know you've been so nice to me come I'm going to buy a tree. They were trying to organize a plan and. I was getting together with these other people young folk by the way they were wrong or 25 you know we were getting together and saying you know the CIA was taking place and the organizing and the sit down and flam the steel workers or the automobile workers we want to organize too while we got out of the floods. Secular the model I was talking to said we were having this meeting this first meeting in a school hall a public being the first public meeting of members turn out we didn't have room to put the people in what was the impact them when the CIO actually was formed. The impact was that there was this tremendous for mountain fever amongst many workers industrial workers. The fever caught on people who had a feeling and a sense that maybe there should be organized and things should be much better. So he kept there. You know when. I sat in on the meeting they

would just have an organizing drive and everybody was getting upset I didn't get an invite I signed today because you know they want to say what do you mean is it any good when you get are you going to have to pay union dues out of your money if you don't have them you know have been union dues and they can't get these disgusting people trying to sell them you know and then I say yeah anything but. The workers are telling them. So I held up my hand and this guy recognized the actors and I said you know. At the rate you're going and what I'm hearing here tonight you just mean you know if these people here the ones are trying to get the people to sign a card John they just and not me cause they're not selling Union. They are laying the word because certainly. Nobody has it not is you need to do for the workers will get to we will do is it where are we going to fight for more wages better working

conditions we're going to fight they had grievances about something in the war for all we're going to fight straight off then aren't we going to sign a new contract again and I said Well no these people here must not know about this this was essential that international reps they met as if. He said I. Was there and I was really elected stood that night and I think I side with about five members that their first night look at me you know working on the Senate Miley you know with your muses the bullies let's get together. Not if you want our way to them to tell you about the do you gotta talk to the workers in the shop with you you got to build you a union gotta make it strong but it all fit together. Don't be long you get shorter hours. Better working conditions vacations with pay to get to the part that simple so I better explain just why I got to ride on the union Vane good if you wait for the boss to

rage if they will all be awaiting till judgement day will all be buried in the heavens thinking it'll be the wrong both and now you know you're on the page about the boss but it ain't you. Speed up the work go to the bank you may be down and out but you ain't beaten you can count on me. Talk it over. Speak your mind. Decide to do something about it may persuade some Bardem to go to a meeting then act like a fool but you can always tell us to go about the fact you got a yeller street around and down the back you tell them how to get along eat Ahmadi take out a blind man's cup. But most of the work and you go hard it goes down and up and you off starvation wages to go to the boss and the boss would yell before a good day at the all and no it wasn't a big deal or not it like they think you got your union. I looked out the window on the bottom of the sea

but I've found them pickets and they all agree the bad slave driver better be to dry heat. Now boy you come to the hardest time the bottle try to bust a picket line he'll call out a pollie. The National Guard thought it a crime to have a union card they'll arrange a meeting. They'll hit you on the head they'll call every one of your damn read un patriotic yap and sabotaging national defense. But out at Ford Here's what the founding out of here's what we found out about our trauma years down and better living here is probably found that if you don't let red baiting break up and if you don't let you down and if you don't let vigilantes open if you don't let me tell you what I mean take it easy but take it. But the most exciting meetings were those that were called at the shop gates and on

any particular issue or an election. Get out these flyers and the amounts of there would be this meeting and then they would show up. You guys would show up with a loud speaker system and walk out of your department. Your right to do it right. Betty white or whatever you know you're wearing uniforms. I had the workers would come out and I would just search the faces of workers black white men and women that's when the women really got to know about the union. And the speakers who would speak and it would be a half hour lunch time. It never was just a half hour lunch time but we got powerful enough. We took an hour or more. The company did say they couldn't. What ways is whatever show their strength. That's one way. Right there on an issue like that or something came up during contract time etc.. They did that and then. If something happened in our department. I have to just clear lieutenants that says that it is

right and left all over the place and if the mood on the kill floor pull the tape the whole damn place will close up with the first ones to stop. Or many times they were the most militant the most radical. They knew they had power. You know they really did. And once they stop the killing of the Al you know that's the first step the whole shebang would close up. Some of them. And she said those people were most exactly like hosted by right. So the hardest jobs the reason the black people are most militant there's because they saw the writing I was with him with the union. I don't give a shit what happened to the white workers. All I was interested in was black workers now. You could take nonwhite with them. All right with me black workers. Somebody comes dashing back in my department and says to me you know you fire that woman. And she was on the shop. I said why. And she said she's out there fighting to

get a black man in the tomb. I say come on you know I was she bob about whether like me. So I'd leave my department. Then I said. She said yeah you don't have. To make and they will find him. So the workers in the shop were angry with her in the Tula done because they said that they would not work in that department if they brought a black guy in there. So then all the union officials get together and we decide that that's our right if they don't want to work then let them go. They can just get out. We didn't say it like that stronger. And we said to get the hell off on that a little higher just like I'm leaving going around the next corner on high as many workers as we need in here. So we went back and we told them if you don't want to work with the guy then leave. Well they finally hired the guy and nobody left. They did not quit.

And about three months later the guy was due to. The white workers at the beginning find it difficult to accept what he says he feels. There was always this tremendous discrimination when I drive. But that wasn't the union because they work together. You know they worked alongside their own published for instance there was one guy Hackney overcame a union organizers. I'll never forget he went to a meeting and spoke before department of women and so speaking Polish. Wow. The same process if you have these from Rugby Union child murder and that. You can't go any place unless you go back. And that it was important this one woman who was fighting for this black man to get his tool room. I've never heard or never believed that such a thing could happen. And I found that the people working together fighting together for the same things the only way you can get anything. Can the sun.

Now. Keep. Our feet on our can make. The unions in this migration through the workers much overrun and beat our trainer and laminate one force on earth is weaker than the people striking the young man takes out the. The seat I am. Allowed to take. The. The cheap now out. You may hate the solidarity Yes but there were problems too. Beneath the surface there was tremendous inequality for black people and for women in general the unions were not

willing to fight for the changes necessary to ensure women and black social equality and the basic relationship of man woman family and work the source of women's oppression was basically unquestioned. These problems served to weaken the movement's strength for the very many women who did join in but then the how they ever came out to meetings. Why was that. All those poor and work all day then they come home and have to take care of the house or you have a man's job. I mean this is the way it was what part of the few of us who were active in the union were not married didn't have families you know there are very few women who were actually married had children who were active in the very few that you only had so many hours in the day that was a lot of this and to use among the women you know and they had this business where they would take you know your regular car out of the way when you came back to work and they would put you in another car. Then you have to take this card out and write your excuse on it and then take it

to the foreman and give it to him but he would you know this was what we said. These women don't work in seven days we want to. Meet you know it was during the war and they. That work doesn't end when they leave here they had to go home and wash and I will never know what a woman does when she gets off on the job and working seven days a week they don't have a minute and we did to make those women sign those cards when they come in here so we to all women you just put on the card. Just hi. Just how do you get at me when you work in seven days a week and then working 24 hours a day really because you want to only need then you just you and it's my style. And they took those cards away and it was a real success to them in my society in general and then by the radicals themselves. Well I think that it was sort of preordained and quote you know that the men would have all the leading leading roles. This is what

happened and the few women who aspired to be leaders have to put it that way. Don't come by ABC. A lot of other gaffes and I remember when for a short time I had a district position in Chicago but I wasn't allowed in the inner circles you see because I was too much of a proletarian or outspoken whatever it was and so I had a corner of a desk where the top officials would go out and have lunch together and they never invited me. I was just a membership secretary. Come to think of it. And so it was the time for me to go to lunch. I have a good mind to put this to America first. And one day the argument the district organizer called me and he said Katherine is very unbecoming for a person who is a district

functionaries district functionary to go and have lunch with Denard first I thought to myself Go ahead. What is are some workers movement or what is it. And we have to work side by side with me and I'm not saying that they have no place. They do you know and we have to but we have to struggle sometimes against them because it will recognize it and sometimes there is jealousy you know you can't do this. And it's proven that we could do it. Tell me what do you think of unions today in general. Well in general they are correct. You think they're not serving working people. You know they're serving not leadership. How do you feel about the large AFLCIO yesterday. Well I think that there are quite a bit like they was at that time I think that they have not organized and organized I think they've become conservative very conservative. There's tremendous about a white

collar workers that should be organized and this is not their major concern. I think the union should also become involved in things outside the unions the nater type things you know consumer ecology etc. to a greater degree. In the 1930s like today not all working people could find a job. Unemployment was a fact of life unemployed councils were formed to help people fight for the means to survive. There is no such thing as any federal government there are only small private charities to take care of people. And particularly among

blacks. Day after day people would be the victims. First of all they had a hard time finding any kind of a job that paid anything anyway and now they were the first to be unemployed. I mean to be jobless and they couldn't pay their rent and and there are very few people out in the streets and there was an eviction on 13th Street and the people had called the Southside headquarters of the unemployed Council the priest had arrested hundreds of people truckload after truckload trying to put this one family back in. By the time we got to the house the police came out from everywhere you know. And one of them with a spade a detective with a solid abstract got got up on the top of the steps and egghead was a big touring cars in those days and he was so big and so mean and he says the first son of a British step but the foot on the step he said

is going to have their head tracker RAF. So I suppose not Katie. Is seriously is your 8 year old. So I expect marching up the steps. And back started up the steps. The young white public goes along with me and then suddenly I see a young negro man and his wife on each side of us to their ever querulous Great out the steps. And we walked right up to this detective with this started out back then went past him and came to the house and put our backs up against the girl and then the door I bury with their heels and then the whole number of police carriage came and the people came out of their houses. And I guess the man

must have been a lieutenant the police or something in the area and he was he says. He says I'm tired of this. Let's call it quits ahead with that. If I tell you what we're going to do I'm going to past my head. And a man were to be there. He said I'm going to get past my head for a collection. And every policeman here has to put some money in their head and I want as many of your people as passably can put in your can in there and then he passed it had around him and you and every man guard over it he said. You have your damn rant and I don't want to hear another word not go ahead. Open that door so we were back then were most the people who were involved in working class right and helping working class people attain their rights for most people like that radicals are socialists most of them or most were dedicated or heads or sympathies in that direction.

When you first heard this kind of ideas what would you feel very positively because it made a lot of sense you know and I think that they provided insights on their head. But the only way you could really take our system and society is through a social society. And we did a lot of social society. Well basically this is a social society would mean that their maids that the means of production would be owned by them and that their fruits of their labor would be divided on a more equitable basis that was there there wouldn't be this tremendous disparity. But there wouldn't be hunger but there would be different scales of education for children. To me socialism would mean that the greatest amount of stage show should be in the people themselves that the people decide to live in that when the when the women's movement first came along.

What did you think about it. Fabulous right. Yeah. I became part of it. Form became part of the group through some young women who invited me and another friend of mine. You know the oldsters in this group. Long time overdue. And participated to whatever degree I could. My thought was just great. You were in a consciousness raising group right. It's great you work with the women's movement. Why do you have any. If you find any difficulties personally. Yes I did I had my own problems have a certain impatience you know with some young women who I feel can't relate to working women. When you come from an area or an economic. Base where you have choices you know that you can't relate to people that who don't have you know what I'm trying to say is women who have you can

do anything they want to do you know who can live a very simple I've broken liver. You have traveled all over and with the money because basically what I'm saying is you need economic equality and independence to be able to do the kind of things you want to do and and women who have to work. For a living. In the factories or in homes and offices have a whole different concept of life and you know what is needed and required. And he feels a sense that you feel to some degree that women in the women's movement you know didn't really understand effort with. Iraq. Well I think they were they had lived long enough or had the same problems I did have the same experiences you know on the other hand I think that many of these women have done a tremendous amount of of revolutionary work. Open up all sorts of ideas and concepts I have to have them for some very appreciative and grateful.

You really have an amazing life and I wonder if you've ever regretted becoming a radical. Having the life you did know and there have been times when some members of my family especially in the recent years in my old age were not now be in good health anymore. Who said. We had open your big mouth. Not with your intelligence you could have been something. But where you're now. You're nothing. That's what you are. You're just nothing. And then I say well that's YOUR we have looking at it but it isn't my way. I have no regrets. I have no regrets whatsoever. I feel that there is purpose in my life. And there were very difficult times. But I am proud to say. That I survived a fraction of the whole participated

through tremendous movements by the union the black liberation movement the women's liberation movement. The last would be of course I hope. There are ones with the union of company thing and the devil in the race of the Union. When I'm eatin it was cold and when the boys come around ground zero they say we can't. See the way you think they can. Me neither Yeah.

I mean do you believe their union made through the pictures of company companies. And I think she will get their way. When you better pay your car to the National Guard in this case they tell me they can get a I think a they can tell you. Oh yeah. After seeing the film I spoke with the filmmakers Julia Reichert and James Klein.

I was a little hard hard to believe actually that we went ahead and made this film from their lives they were really excited and I think it gave them the sense I mean I'm sure you can imagine if if you were an older person and us all may feel about you that it would be the sense would be that your life is going to continue even after you're gone and that you're experiencing some of the things you've learned are going to continue to be experienced by people. So that I think it's just it's just management a whole lot of them. You mention that you came across a book by Stalin and rank and file. This is a book of biographies right. And the only three women actually in the book out of 50 stories were the three women in the film. Stella Sylvia and Kate I'm aware. From previous conversations with you that some of the women and some of the other people in the book don't use their real names. What is what is this indicator they still under some harassment.

Well as a matter of fact Stella it's not a real name and my understanding of partly why she doesn't wish to use her real name in the case of film this film is that she was during the 152 she had to go underground because she was a radical She was a communist and you know during the McCarthy period and which was true for a lot of commies at that time they had to change their identities and maybe go under pseudonyms for years which happened to her and she still is worth being an organizer today she still she doesn't want her. Her real name to be No. Another thing which I thought we did I wish we could have the film but we didn't find out to later is it Katie the oldest of the women what is foreign born she was born in Croatia and she was also a member of the Communist Party during the 30s and 40s and she was arrested under the McCarran act during the 50s. She was used to go underground was arrested on the McCarren Act which was an anti-communist act and is still on parole is on lifetime parole under that act and was almost deported they had to fight really hard for years not to be deported back to U.S. labia.

One thing the the truth of them was during the 50s during the McCarthy period they were really come down upon very hard and they just had a really rough time and a lot of what had happened before was lost in the public eye. I think they were really excited the people who date to hear about like what happened back then in seeing the film part of the strength of it. In addition to the stories of the women lives in the actual footage and the photographs that you have that remarkably back up the stories I was struck by how often the footage and the story went together. Talk a little bit about how you how you went about getting that. Yeah actually some of the footage we found for the first time actually does in fact illustrate the exact stories that women are talking about. For instance when Katie talks at one point about a person who was shot by the police and she talks about a big funeral and demonstration that was held because of it and and the spirit of solidarity there the person shot was black in the fact that both blacks and whites were there in the streets of Chicago in massive numbers

and in a real sense of solidarity. And we actually found the actual newsreel footage of that that funeral and shots of the people driving by in the banners of the time and as Katie talks about it you know above it everything fits to the point where she says street cars could I could almost not get through the crowd they'd only barely crawl through. And we have a shot of a speaker just being totally held up by the mom on the street as so many people you know just they're together in terms of getting the footage. Joy you went to Washington for about four weeks all together really broken up over other times to find their cover for this region talk about that. Yeah I went once with sharing overcome once with Barbara tusk both of whom live in Dayton and it was really amazing and interesting to do just that. It was hard actually to stick to the subject of the thirties because we find so much other stuff that we just wanted to read look about we're learning so much you know about that about the whole time we got most of our footage from the National Archives which is in Washington. We got some from various unions Steelworkers the

Amalgamated clothing workers particularly the UAE. I can't remember what all but we got footage from a number of unions and from some individuals too. But one thing which was we had a real stroke of luck and that was that you know in times past that in the movie theaters they used to have news reels every week to view FOX Movietone or the path A or whatever you know newsreel every week. So it's all that stuff is miles of footage of the past. One of those was the universal newsreel. And it's been completely like away in vaults ever since the 40s. It just so happened that the Universal gave its whole collection to the archives to be put into public domain. And it the card catalogs had just been completed about a month before Sheri and I got there. So we were among the first people ever to get access to that footage in fact you couldn't that was you couldn't they didn't have copies for us to see. We had all of the footage from card catalogs we had it would have lots more footage in other words and we needed and it be almost like it's like a treasure you know we order the stuff and then four months later we get a package in the mail and here would be and we didn't know what was really what we get we just read these card catalogs well strike

well demonstration Okay so we'll take it you know. And so actually a whole lot of the footage in the film is is very very rare and has never been seen before. And another thing that's in the film is a lot of still photographs. And those are really amazing to get we all kinds of people gave us old photographs in the collections and particularly the three women themselves they had like all the union cards that they had had and they had pictures of themselves being organizers in the 30s and they had like still leaflets from from demonstrations you know and from events and like like like Stella for instance had a copy of the actual leaflet when they called the first meeting to organize a party packing house workers. And we used that in the film and it was really exciting to see that kind of stuff. Also in a funny way gives us a sense of continuity because here in the movement in Dayton we do so you know we organize mass media who organize demonstrations we call people we do educational events and there are that there was all this stuff in the 30s type written with all the mistakes

and you know it it just felt like it felt really wonderful to see that that part of the past. Right. The other thing about that was just to see like the photograph to see the age of the people at the time and I always imagine like people organizing a 30s being like you know like middle aged people and you know like. Well middle aged people at least and it's not true most most of the people who organize the used up were in their late teens and early twenties just like say the movement of the 60s. It was a real useful movement and it was people who were young who who did not have anything established who were still ready to go out there and really make the changes they were willing to say well even if I lose my job which is something that happened over and over again I'm going to go out and I'm going to fight to get a union going to fight for workers to have some control. In fact one of the things that I felt personally strong about was the very issue of the women losing their jobs. It seemed like each time they would do something in the area of organizing at least in the beginning

they'd lose their job. And yet they seem to keep going. And I was I had a feeling that there was a lot of strength there but and I'm wondering you know was it the group that they were with or were these particularly individually strong women that they seemed to be able to keep going in spite of a lot of economic hardship and also harassment. You know I think it's probably both those things you meant to mention. They did have in a sense a collective support. You know in each and each planet and all over the city there were groups of radicals organized together mostly there mostly in the coming out party at the time. But even people who weren't you know did have collective support is kind of like we have today. But I think another thing really comes out of their backgrounds that they came from really from poverty and they understood you know the total lack of power that the average working person had and they were they dedicated their lives to changing their situation. And so the end they had a sense of dedication that I think is hard for us to imagine you know because of our own backgrounds you know they they had a sense they were going to change the world and that they were right and that they were just as was on their side. You know they said and they were they

were very clear about it. It was almost were just very very clear I think that's where they are where their strength comes from. The other thing too is that like. Back then before there were unions at all. It's very clear this comes out to I mean seeing in scenes in the old footage how much the companies the big companies were totally threatened by the idea of an organized labor force. They just absolutely didn't want to. They'd send goons out they'd send cops out National Guard everything they could they'd fire people. And it made it difficult to organize for sure but it made it clear I think with the where the class lines were you know maybe a little clearer than it is today in that they have bureaucratic unions and kind of the nine city governments and that sort of thing I think the class lines were drawn more and more obviously back then in doing the film. The music is also incredibly important. And I was wondering what went into the choices of the music. Well the first thing is that we wanted to have music that that was from the

period that would give the same sense as as the actual archival footage. And mostly where we use the music in fact it is with archival footage and the main music in the film is Pete Seeger in the Almanac Singers and they're in there singing labor organizing songs songs that were actually sung in the 30s were actually used to organize workers. And there's a spirit in the music you know like it's not like pop music recorded today doesn't have all the frequencies and everything but there's a spirit with it in the way they sing it which just expresses that same kind of dedication and feeling that was really important to them being successful for me. Yeah I think we usually use a lot of music in our films you know. And I think that's because partly as Jim says you know to give you give to flesh out you know what it felt like to be around in the 30s to give you a sense of spirit and so forth but also you know I think people watching a film need to have a little breather I guess from words and from dealing from absorbing on an intellectual level. And I think music provides can provide at least those kind of

pausing points in a film. And so I hope the music in this film works on all those levels. When you make a film you must become very personally involved in it. What were the things that that you learned personally what came out of this film for you. Well guys ally with into that. I think I'm I think the most dumb. I really I think it really has affected me very personally to get to know these women to know their sense of dedication and direction that had they haven't it hasn't. You know they're they're still they're old and they're still really on the same track in a way. They're still organizing they're still fighting back. And that was really inspiring to me. But another thing you know which I take away from it is the realization that it that a movement a you know a popular movement like the Labor movement of the 30s or like the Socialist Party is let's say it earlier than that can be squashed even in this country which as you know so much supposed democracy you know like during the 5th that's why I think this history has been lost to us to a large degree

of the of the 30s and 40s. And why working people today have no pretty much no understanding whatsoever of their radical heritage has a lot to do with the McCarthy period and the kind of changes that made in our consciousness. But I think that made anyone who was really it wasn't just it was an anti-communist movement but it has also was much broader than that. We got to the point. Where anyone who even had a somewhat progressive idea was considered it could be called a pinko or red and could be then discredited. Could lose their job and so forth I mean I remember reading newspapers all through the 50s and it's really clear that the country went through a very reactionary period at that time and the movement was completely squashed and that kind of thing could happen I guess. I wasn't aware of how large the movement had been in the 30s and 40s and then how effectively it was wiped out during the 50s. And there's a little parallel because even that the civil rights movement has really you know where's the civil Where's the you know really the black Milton movement today and the anti-war movement the thousands of people who were in the street then who were being

radicalized. I think the Nixon era had something to do with with with squashing that movement to fund some energy for yourself and what you're trying to do in seeing this. Because as a Socialist myself I look back at the at the women NMM who are organizing then and I see that they really had to put themselves into it day and night you know they work like 18 hours a day and then they come home and then they start doing their they were going to work off the job writing their leaflets having their meetings you know figuring out exactly what to do strategizing and the dedication that went into that in the spirit. And also you can see even though the movement itself was crushed the results of that movement even today with there being a strong union movement at least in 20 percent of the workforce and of course the other 80 percent really need to be organized but what was done I'm not ready to like throw away and say well it's too bad that's all I think conditions in this country are very different but workers if there hadn't been a movement and it gives me that the sense of dedication and feeling to know that when

I get to be 60 I'm going to be able to look back at what I'm doing and be very proud of it whether whether we go all the way and really change the society completely or whether we're still in the process of you know I really have to second that. I mean the idea that it's true I mean you know from what I said about the movement there's no question that that radicals all throughout I mean the more I've read about history the radicals have really played a decisive role in this country even though it again and again that role gets get suppressed right out of history. You know it still is true and the more I read the more I see that you and I take a lot of pride in that and I take a lot of sense of direction in the worth of my own life from that from knowing that. What about in the experiences of these women in particular. Do you find anything that you see as applicable either to your own work or maybe to the work that other women are doing. Well a lot of things probably but one thing I think stands out in fact particular since I've actually seen the film finished it hit me when I first saw it that these women

and women like them at that time would would respond to situations immediately. And you probably notice that in seeing the film if somebody you know had a they got their hand cut got got their fingers cut off on the job right if somebody was fired. You know when they should have been fired if somebody was discriminated against they responded immediately and they responded themselves they didn't leave it for the bureaucrats to respond. They were going ised on a rank and file level for people to respond themselves and take power into their own hands. And that's something again I think that's been forgotten but I think it's something that I'd want to remember in my own life to not sit back to always be thinking of you know when when are the times to respond and to actually go right out and do it and always also to think in terms of organizing you know large numbers of people the way they did too. They always thought in terms of organizing thousands and thousands of people which I think is another thing that I think a direction that I take.