Main Street, Wyoming; 620; S.C. On Education

Mainstreet Wyoming is made possible by Kennicott energy company proud to be a part of Wyoming's future in coal and uranium industries which includes exploration mining and production. And the Wyoming Council for the Humanities enriching lives of Wyoming people through the study of Wyoming history values and ideas. This document will affect Wyoming for years to come. If the Supreme Court's ruling on our state's educational system. Join us on Main Street Wyoming to hear the key players discuss the impact and meaning of this ruling on the lives of our children and our communities. Welcome to Main Street Wyoming. I'm Deborah Hammons. On November 8th the Wyoming

State Supreme Court finally handed down their decision regarding the funding of our state's educational system. There have been many discussions about it since then but one of the more interesting ones happened in Casper. It was called interpreting the decision. The key players there were the lawyers involved school board members educational system people and youre going to be able to hear them firsthand and decide for yourself what exactly does the Supreme Court's ruling mean to all of us and to our children. Welcome to you all is very gratifying to see this kind of a turn out and b interests expressed in this issue. It is a big win for us for all of us. We have with us today the three of the attorneys involved in the lawsuit have Schachner attorney for the Wyoming Education Association read off the discussion. He explained the ruling and described the issue of the state courts have been involved with since the 1960s. The fact is where we were isn't really critical is where we go. And I think we need to

see how we envision what this decision says and I think the decision is a very strong and clear mandate. I know it's 50 some pages but I think the reason it was is that they try to give us exploration background and clarity such that we would know the direction that we're going. And frankly there's probably more detail in it than you usually get from a Supreme Court in some of these areas. I know that when you're dealing with it on a legislative side and you're saying so what the heck do they mean here. It's frustrating but under a traditional situation this is far more extensive and comprehensive than most of these kinds of decisions that have existed elsewhere. A proper education requires appropriate curriculum and core curriculum core skills advanced placement courses and rapidly changing computer technology small schools and small class sizes. These and other editio of educational opportunity must be afforded regardless of school size or location. That's one fundamental concept is that local wealth is not the way you're going to pay for a basic education program. Rather it needs to be a function of the wealth of the state as a whole. Number

two the court in very strong terms enunciated a constitutional right to education for all students in Wyoming regardless of where they live regardless of the assessed valuation. And essentially for the way I see it made the fundamental principle that whatever it takes to deliver an education to that student if they're rural or remote and it takes extra money then that extra money should be there for whatever it takes. Or if they have extraordinary costs in their community it should go there. But whatever it takes that education should be delivered. The legislature must state and describe what a proper education is for a Wyoming child. The Constitution requires it be the best that we can do. Throughout the decision talks about a quality or a high quality or the best education. I mean people take sign soundbites and at one point the people have argued well when they said best is that a comparative superlative or what is that. It doesn't matter if you

read the whole thing in context. The entire structure is it has a high quality education that allows our students to go out there and compete so that our students can go and be wherever they need to be and function in a modern day world. A quality education will include ample appropriate provision for at risk students special problems students talented to do nothing in this opinion and my view requires you to give exactly equal dollars for every student. Matter of fact I think that would violate the opinion you give the dollars it cost to put the program out. I want to talk a little bit about the issue. Other issues that have come up one is local control. How does local control fit into this system a quality education will include integrated substantially uniform substantive curriculum decided by the legislature through the State Superintendent of Public Instruction and the State Board of Education with input from local school boards.

And I think there's a misunderstanding of what the court is saying in this area. The court expressly said that the responsibility for education belongs to the state and it's the state's job to define what's the proper education and then to find it. If you read the opinion carefully you'll see that the court in italics said there is a local role to be played which is that the local school districts implement that structure. It also in italics says that the legislature in deciding what is the education you're supposed to do so with consultation with the school districts and the state board in the capital construction area what the court basically said is that our current system of building buildings and repairing buildings based on local assessed valuation does not meet the Constitution. Some of us have trouble letting go of what it was. So we think like it was and the fact is it will not and cannot be that way anymore. And whether you agree or do not agree that it should be changed it's not going to stay the

same. So then we can either make it good and great or we can make a terrible. And that's our choice. I think the project is to work together to make it the best that we can make it. Better. Attorney for the original plaintiffs in the lawsuit spoke I believe this case is clear. I believe it is unequivocal. I believe it is definity that quality education will include small school small class size low teacher student ratios textbooks low personal computer student ratios. Some of the values that pertain in our in our rural agrarian school districts small classes small class sizes small student teacher ratios. Perhaps a more focused community interest in the welfare of the kids in the schools and I believe that historically the system as it has developed legislatively has taken away those very values from kids who live in our larger districts. The fact of the

matter is that Wyoming is no longer a state in which the people who live here are basically rural and agrarian 70 percent of our people and 70 percent of our kids now live in communities which are defined by the Bureau of the census as urban areas. And in those urban areas we are beginning albeit we may be rural by by the standards of most people in this country. These districts are beginning to experience and have many of the problems that are endemic in inner urban schools and in urban areas and all you have to do is ask the superintendent from Casper or Green River or Cheyenne about some of the kinds of problems that they have. And the bottom line in this case as I see it is that if small classes and small class sizes and small student teacher ratios are truly important educational values which are inner to the benefit of kids then those values are as important to kids in urban areas like greener and Rock Springs

as they are in and in rural areas like Lusk or Meeteetse or elsewhere. And if that's the value to which we aspire as a society and a culture that's a value that we should assure to every kid in the state of Wyoming. The legislature must first design the best educational system a legislature must then take the necessary action to bind that back. All other financial considerations must hold until education is funded. If we accept adequacy if we accept mediocrity if we accept some minimalist approach to the quality of the educational opportunity that we deliver to our kids we will have begun to erode over the course of time. The whole notion of a constitutional democracy and the idea of self-determination and I suggest to you that if we aren't vigilant to the idea that education among all the interest to compete for public money

is more important than anything else we will have begun to signal the demise of this Nobelist of human experiments a constitutional democracy based on self-determination and inevitably maybe a hundred years maybe 500 and maybe a thousand but inevitably the question is not if but when the Republic will fall. That's what education is all about. It's not an abstract idea. It deals with the most basic human instinct which is self-preservation. That's what I think this case stands for. Attorney Kurban charitable no prospect I represented 22 of the smaller school districts in this litigation the state finance basket of quality educational goods and services available to all school age you must be nearly identical from district to district.

Guess I foresee the other things as long as they're legislators here to look at these problems that part of it is to is to really find the workable way that you have a sense a in a sense and in an educational basket that can be provided is as far as my clients are concerned. In a small rural setting and how much does that basket have to look like the educational basket in the large urban districts. And then secondly if you set the let's say that you set the educational basket is is the best that you can provide to that to that lowest or least district then everything that goes beyond that is is an enhancement to that part of the difficulty that I see. Part of the challenge that I see is is a method by which the legislature is going have to devise to permit that type of enhancement to take care of some of these things. I think that is a a a probably a particularly difficult issue that is going to have to be dealt with. They count of states that have gone through school funding

litigation is something in excess of 35 states. So a variety of types of costing formulas have been attempted in other states. And obviously if there were one simple one we would simply write forward in the mail and call it up and get it and use it. But but it doesn't exist that way and it is going to have to be created and it's going to have to be created by the input from the citizens of the state of Wyoming from the educational community and obviously working with the legislature to come up with this type of formula supporting an opportunity for a complete proper quality education is the legislators paramount priority competing priorities not of constitutional magnitude are secondary a path indicated that even quite frankly I found that opinion to be flawless and in and you know I think the court's unequivocal unequivocal about what it's saying. I guess I just something just keeps telling me that that for the court to say that all other

funding obligations must yield to education is a difficult concept. Politically the adversary portion of this matter is is essentially over and the time now is to find the means and the the willpower and the courage to do what is necessary to provide the type of education to the students of the state of Wyoming that not only we all know and believe in our hearts and minds that those children are entitled to have but also now that the court has said is the constitutional obligation of this state and it is at the core of this state's reason for being a reason for having a constitution is to educate those children at the conclusion of the exploration of the Supreme Court's ruling a panel of those affected by the decision.

Briefly share their reaction. Judy Catchpole wireman State Superintendent of Public Instruction during my campaign I met with a large group of students from lots of different towns in Wyoming and we had a discussion about opportunity to learn and it hasn't been equal in Wyoming. I see that the Superintendent of Public Instruction has two major responsibilities with this lawsuit. The first is to offer leadership in terms of providing technical support to the legislature in addition to providing technical support. I see one of my main responsibilities to provide leadership in providing to the legislature important input and an access to input from the experts from parents from business and community. We've spent a great deal of time in the last four to five years in each local

school district writing performance standards having massive discussions about what it is we want to graduate that walks across the stage at graduation from a high school in Wyoming to look like we've had massive discussions debates and we've moved far far ahead and we need to bring and have that access come to the legislature. I'm more convinced than ever that at this particular time we are more ready than ever to deal with this issue. And I feel very strongly if we can't fix this right and do it now and do it in Wyoming there's no hope for public education in this country. John Carmody superintendent Sweetwater County School District Number two the opinion states that we need to deal with what kids receive. And what kids take away from our schools or quality education will include a meaningful assessment of all students progress and core

curriculum and core skills regardless of whether those students intend to pursue college or vocational training. If we would look at the skills that every student needs to be successful. When they leave our high schools. And find those skills. If we find a way to assess whether students are leaving with those skills just presenting skills. Doesn't do what we need to do in our schools we need to be able to assess the skills and say yes kids are ready. We have this to show. Representative Jim Haggin Chairman House Education Committee. I guess I'm doing only one was still on the education committee that was there when we did it before 14 years ago and I still wonder if that system wouldn't still be really going really well if the state's version of SEST valuation is DAY TO DATE billions to drop to 6. Right now we're going to face a lot of problems. For instance I visited two schools a couple

of years ago. One school was small school could offer 49 opportunities in that school. The other one Kadazan the one the second day could offer 149 opportunities that was classes that a student could take in a high school. So we're going to have to decide what what's right there what do we do how are we going to see if we have to have this basket of educational opportunities. What do we do there. That's a situation that we're really going to have to face you can gloss it over with all the terms you want to use but it's one of the things we're going to have to decide. It's curious the committee has foreseen some of this for Cranston's a couple of years ago. The education committee's function to be able to set up a telecommunications council that we really looked to help us a lot on the having a different way of delivering classes to students around different parts of the state. But the plain truth is we have to face those issues. Accountability I interpret in there that we are going to have to set up a system of accountability. I might state education commission of the states thinks that this is the

second toughest opinion that they have received a Supreme Court do that was Kentucky I think this one here in Wyoming was the second of this. You know this is going to demand dramatic changes in the state. I kind of look forward to the battle. I really truly wish we'd got term limits into some. Daftari serves on Johnson County school board I guess my comments are going to be a little different than some of the other pupils. I have some visions and one of those is that we need a partnership now. All the sides need to. Join hands and go together and some of the things that I think we need to do is I would hope that when the package comes out K through three would. Have no more than 15 students in a classroom. For five and six that have no more than eight teenage students in a classroom. I think the studies show that. Both my parents were teachers. We need a stable source of funding minerals is not the way property taxes is not the

way. We need to look at our sales tax structure and. Go from there. And I guess no matter what we do we need to make sure. That the little kids are the winners not the big kids. Margo representing business in the state of Ohio. We probably make the final assessment when we either hire somebody or don't. And so maybe it's time that we got a little more involved in what's going on. People talk about a proper education and that every single individual will get it. I hope that that really happens. Some of those folks that trail to my office applying for those minimum wage jobs even have their degrees but they really can't can't change. They can do interviews to help me with inventory and they have to write down five cents and they can't figure out how to do it. They don't know where the desk is and when we talk about place value when you're counting inventory they can't do it. They simply can't do

it. These are people functioning everyday in the workplace. It's critical that we make our kids heads and shoulders above everybody else as they get ready to join that work force. I would encourage you also at the state level whatever the format gets to develop all this that we don't get more bureaucracy that the dollars really do flow down into the kids. Helen Cherny girl school where there is a little statement and I think it's in the back of the opinion and I think it was testimony from Jack HIVers there are no losers in this lawsuit. As a parent group that has advocated for children for years. We truly do not see any losers in this lawsuit. This lawsuit is. Is a way of ensuring that the children of Wyoming

get a quality and equal education. Senator Frank Krevin member of the Senate Appropriations Committee. I don't look upon it as something where some school district one and some school districts lost but that. The students in Wyoming potentially are the winners but they're the winners only if the legislature can show wisdom and vision no laughs wisdom and above all will I take care of all the will. It's seems to me it will be difficult for us to reach a consensus. The aspect of the decision which makes students winners is the opportunity that can be afforded it seems to me to all students and the opportunity to modernize to make it a place called

school revelent to a changing world a global economy. I believe that the schools have what I would term unfunded mandates as an example when there are huge costs related to things like court order placement and it seems to me that there are other social agencies that ought to take the lead and be the lead in certain social problems that the definition of education are not to the extremes to the extreme. The schools are assuming the social responsibilities that rightfully belong to other groups. It seems to me in the overall picture. That the schools have become all things to all people. And I believe we need to define a narrower responsibility that we can do very well. I believe also that the cutting edge of technology is required

and especially in a rural state like Wyoming. Thank you. Karen Maxfield teaches English at Laramie high school. One of the most exciting things to me as a teacher and having taught 28 years in public schools in Wyoming actually all of them in Laramie is to be sitting in a room like this and it's happened a couple of other times so far in my career but very late only in the last recent years with this kind of cross-section of people who are here working on the same problem together and sharing ideas and suddenly starting to form the partnerships we've been talking about and to start to share ideas like Frank Coverdell was talking about things that in the past years that I've been teaching when I first started weren't always happening and certainly as a teacher my job was often to go to my room do my job keep the door closed have very little interaction with anybody but those who I got along with in my hall that kind of thing and it's definitely a far different educational scene in Wyoming today.

Linda skateboarded I feel like the slums Yes they want to see design work. I don't look for two hundred more. Pages for. Testing. And. Learning something that may be. What we have now. Yes I just find myself hoping. That these communities they really will be willing to consider what it is like Congress is this is one of the things that. Schools like creating classrooms and having TV even if that's the best way. To. Take these I really feel like it's

following the pattern of provocation. Senator Charles Scott spoke about the court's ruling on the issue of local control and that is the antithesis of local control. And I think that would be a great mistake for this state. I'll give you two reasons for it. I've talked with people from states with centralized systems and there quite a few of them. I've talked with people ranging from North Carolina to Oregon and they tell me that's a disaster that stifles innovation that leads to a cookbook approach. And I think that's something we don't need. It goes contrary to everything that in modern management theory says where the people who have to implement the system should be responsible for designing it as well. The panel was asked about the timeline facing the state's legislature. The fact is that this particular session of the legislature has been

presented with the question that maybe legislatures in the past should have helped to solve. And there is. A lot of work. Actually less less than a year because it will begin probably the process really in March and it must be completed before the life of this legislature ends on January 3rd. Let's face the fact that with every passing day those kids who have been denied this quality of opportunity are suffering irreversible irreparable damage. The only way we get it solved and solve this thing expeditiously So again that needs to be addressed and to be addressed in an expeditious manner for the benefit of kids. And I think you know you implement what you can and if there are pieces that you structurally can do. I think the court will work with you. I think frankly the court's deadline was deliberately intended to say solve the problem and work on it. Now with due diligence and that's really I think the criteria is the legislature going at it with full bore guns the best they can do is

just going to say one thing when I hear how the kids have been damaged in this state still a parent's responsibility to educate their kids. All we give them the tools we've had really good schools in this state is a Bairds that fails their kids haven't been educated there's no court decision or anything else that's going to make any difference. It's still up to the parents to see that their kids educated. All we do is give them the tools we've given them the tools it's a court decision isn't going to make that much difference. The work before the legislature has been divided among the following subcommittees. The curriculum will be hampered by an education delivery system by the cooperations elections and political subdivisions can cross be handled by the Appropriations Committee and funding by the revenue. Today you've heard the key players who are affected by the ruling and who had something to do with it coming back. The important thing is that we continue to listen to one another and to find a means to educate our children to the best of our ability. Thanks to all of the participant in today's forum and thanks to you for joining us on Main Street where I am.

On. Main Street. Wyoming is made possible by Kennicott energy company proud to be a part of Wyoming's future in the coal and uranium industries which includes exploration mining and production and the Wyoming Council for the Humanities enriching lives of Wyoming people through the study of Wyoming history values and ideas