Main Street, Wyoming Classics; 109; Petroglyphs with George Horse Capture

Petroglyphs or rock carvings and art left by people that lived or traveled here before recorded history. You find them in remote places all over Wyoming off the beaten path and largely inaccessible to the everyday traveler. Their significance and their authorship is often debated but they are fascinating to look at. Murals of humans animals and mysterious shapes elaborately in the nuclei designed and decorated. George Horst captured a grove on earth with ties to the Wind River Indian Reservation took us to a petroglyphs side and talked about the technique of the artists the history that we know and the spiritual importance of the art work. The sites are largely unregulated and so they are subject to theft and vandalism and the natural wear of weather when in the last 10 years a new danger has emerged. Drought and fire suppression. A hot fire in a canyon where art is often located can change the rock chemistry and further damage the art. The U.S. Bureau of Land Management is taking steps to mitigate the fire danger but they don't know where all the rock art is. If you do call the BLM at 3 0 7 3 4 7 5 1 5

4. Now let's meet George Horst capture the. Drama. Will you go out. With us today is George or scepter George is a grove Indian from the reservation in Montana. For years George was curator of the plains Indian museum with the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. George let's get some definitions out of the way first. Tell me what is a petroglyphs and what's a pictograph What's the difference between the two. The true gifts are these. I'm the method the way that in a

via a certain type and that's when it cut into the material rock or sandstone or something in whatever design takes and picture grafters painted on the outside. The term pictograph can be used in a number of materials you know pictograph on paper or on hide on stone but a PetroChina. Is only on rock. George which of the two petroglyphs or pictographs you find most often at welding sites most of them around here are petroglyphs cut into the Rock and in some instances cut into the rockers. Entirely descriptive because these drugs some of these raw sheer form of varnish the materials the minerals in the rock when exposed to weather and sun form varnish on the outside of Earth's environment. And when you break through that varnish the lighter material shows through and

this the light against the dark forms the image. And that's the petrol. So it's not a half inch you know or something it's just shallow. One where the petroglyphs of Dinwiddie created and we have a. Well a long time ago by Indians. That much I know. I've studied these forever and I've studied them down in California as well. In the deserts and I try to keep up on the literature. And for this outing we got the latest the latest book. And I've become skeptical over the years about other things that are being written about them and they're very descriptive. They describe a type of design. And it shows you know an interior Phil sale like these. And that's because the inside has designs in and then and then they say well this design can be seen at a certain

date in this configuration. So they say Oh at last something solid. Then the next line is of course it curves in all other ages and all other sides as well. So if you get all of these various descriptions for archaic proto historic or earlier archaic archaic historic. Late historic It all becomes a big jumble. At first it looks like they got to do fine but if you read between the lines they don't really. Someday they guess they're 3000 years old or older some 180 some 15 16 hundred. And sometimes you can tell if you're on this rock with and you can see some that were done long time ago because the process continued. The varnish got darker and darker and darker. Now there's no contrast you can see the Petrova under there but it's the same color as the rock So

these we know are very old and not the same. Panel in the same area. So you could see another one on top or to one side and it's of a different hue. And then you can see the lighter one. So relatively You can you know one is early one is middle and one is very old. And there are certain styles that you can look at that you can you know are very old and some. Some are very strange. I've heard dates anywhere from 180 to 1980 for the creation of the petroglyphs have been witty. Do you have any comment on that you have any sense of exactly when these were put on the rock on the anyway that I am prone to these I think as in being blocks. And these are all the early days. Thousands hundreds and maybe thousands of years old. And that to me that the color you could tell a little bit about the color

and the style. But that's you know that's not exclusive It could very well be some other time. I mean in one sense it doesn't matter. The way there. The reason why they're here I think are the most important thing. And also what they represent not only at the time of how there would be immunity and people today that that's important. Well let's start with what they're doing today but what they would have done to the people who actually put them in the rock in the first place. Well the government wherever I read about I read some historian around the apologist and I don't really believe most of that stuff. Often if you come out to the country like this and you look around and you've seen things before. And if you try to put yourself in their place I think you can come pretty close. This is a magnificent place very beautiful. And if I had a choice I think

I would I would want to live here in the summer. And and in them days they didn't have all the scientific explanations for for everything around them. And they were very close. To their maker to the one above and to provide a rationale for all of these things that happened. And for strength. So they had a close association with their religious beliefs and therefore this religion permeated their culture. And in seven days a week. So they prayed a lot. They prayed aloud for for good fortune and hunting and. Good health and things. The non-troll that that they would manifest this in some way. And I think that's basically the motivation behind the spiritual because they're spiritual. I think a lot of them are for hunting because a lot of them are by water.

And. More animals would be kind of in a closing section and we've tested that out and we see the same components time after time where there's better with it. It was a kind of prayers recognition of. The spirits. Probably some coming in version. Some and dreams and this is kind of a person if it came with them. It's not true that when when you're 5 do something. I know that the head is most important because this is where we talk and we smell and we eat. So it's very important part. And then if you look at the heads of these things that's also where everything takes place. Many of them have auras around them are power lines coming out on the sides and that's all you know kind of a universal thing but we see a lot of them.

I'm sure someone some would say they have on space helmets. But there's there's only certain things and linear drawings can you can do in your drawings to get an idea across. So you have to a lot of these things of course are an abstract. So you have to and what that might mean if you were drawing it how would you tell that story. You know like often. When they draw power. It's jagged lines and playing and sometimes it comes out of the eyes and it goes this way and that's about the only really way you could draw power. And they come out here and we see some coming out of the neck area. You could see there's reading out then we see others with divided in half. And I think that's. That's natural for many people because all of us have at least two major parts. Some you

see the skeletal figure. And that's also natural you see the ribs. But if I was if I was drawing when I draw the draw of the body. Do container space and you could do this in dotted lines cross-hatching a number of ways. And then you'd have to divide that to make it is static. These things are balanced and aesthetic. Beautiful patterns. Yes there is artwork there. You know all of the regular standards for art that people use today. Only DS has that kind of. Imaginative supernatural element to it. I sense that you don't have a lot of respect for the academic petroglyphs and such but I read in one of them that the petroglyphs that we see a Dinwiddie or a cold interior line style. Can you tell me what that is and what it means and is it very significant. Well I'm sure didn't take a big leap of imagination to come up with that name. These figures have interior lines and then again

if you think you know if you drying them you would draw the body. And you would have to divide the space up. You'd have to do something or you have a circle or a goose egg or something so it's not a troll. Maybe maybe these things are abstract renditions of a certain kind of fiber. Remember these are kind of spiritual in nature and they're abstract. I think many of the figures that have wings. It could mean a number of things but a lot of Indian clothing. May have been fringed so that could be one part of it. I think more likely this person this idea could move between worlds or dimensions. And this was the mode only mode would be to fly. So this was a representation that this person could in fact fly.

Of course even today we see a lot of bird imagery in Indian traditional dress and some of the dances that they do. Oh yeah. That's right an eagle is very important in the cultures of others. And then there's many with three fingers. And I thought if I was doing a hard job and I wonder show that this was. Human being. How would I do it. I wouldn't I wouldn't put one on one finger because that that's that's not an outfit looks like a stick. It might be an animal or something. R V for victory or something. But three I think would be enough to tell that this is a creature a has more than one finger so. Rather than do five three would be and three would tell a story in this kind of work. There's a lot of work.

Yeah that's right of course some of them have eight. So that's another very down the tubes though the history remains rather uncertain there many of the incidentally that feel these sites have a special sacred quality. Could you give me some idea of what the special spiritual significance of these sites might be to a contemporary Indian. I feel very close to these things because I think it's. In our country. Union people moved around a lot they live from the earth. We didn't build pyramids and we didn't build cities we didn't have them. So you know you love the country you try to leave it like it is. Generally but there is these are one of the few rare physical evidence is that our people was here and their hands create in theirs their minds created this. So for a physical. Or you can

touch and feel the same spot then and the same spot. That our people stood three thousand years ago or 4000 years ago. These are the few places that we know with absolute certainty they were. And when you get there and you see this in this magic figure with power. And just just to stand there. And to touch them. You know kind of a leap across the years a connection an affirmation of filling a renewal all of these things happened at the site. And in today's world there. They have. When when people. Indian people. Become doctors they're nooner for religion. There are a number of ways they do it. One right down here on this reservation. The sun dances. They do this and.

Another one way people going vision quests and mountains for four days and four nights. There's also another way and one of these ways to sleep at these petroglyphs site. To fast there. Because we know in this world there are certain places where the powers I think. Focus and become more intense. And in the union world I think petrol reciters some of these that are defined identified and as that feeling of sacredness or spirituality is that apparently Indian feeling. In other words can somebody from a tribe in South Dakota come to Wyoming and feel strongly about the did what he cited as a shorty off there would be a reservation. I believe so but I think I think all the people realize that this is the legacy that was passed to us and a direct physical visual legacy.

But there are also a large number of nonunion. White people that also feel this you know the very respect they can and many of them I think also know that there is power here. And I think I'm always impressed by that because sometimes in this in this world you know there is such a void between the two groups to see to see that. They look at some of these things in a same way it is very heartening and the courage of what some people look at these sites and the first thing they think of is tourism. They want to bring people in who would come simply out of curiosity with the sense of the sacred or anything like that. What do you feel the impact of that might be on sites such as Dinwiddie. Well I think of thing if you think about it they'll recognize that it is a good med in some cases. I don't think that would make any difference. You know if it's sacred. Well good more tourists will come. You know like that there's many places in Europe that way or people there of course and so now they

think that hot dog stands in center. I believe that you know that the unemployment is 5 percent on most reservations so it's a very poor they have tax obese persay and they're looking for various ways to ease that burden. And one of the ways is developing and tourism. But I have never heard people say let's develop a sacred site so we can bring tours and as usual the white people and they can do it on Indian Country Indian land so they do it on sacred sites that are off the reservation and out of our control. So like the medicine wheel is a good example. And so they want to widen the road and bring in people. And just like kids. Like Europe you know a miracle is bring and let more people come and look and. Inducing. I think

generally praying is a very personal thing. We still go up to that medicine wheel and pray. And we have ceremonies in and you can do that with a bunch of tourists taking a picture. And if they want to develop things like that you know go somewhere else and you know we don't we don't have many of these sites. Most of the land is taken from us. Leave that part alone. Have some respect. You're a Dinwiddie and even more so in the southwest at some of the other saucy sites petroglyphs thought of there being the feast and marred by them bulls here then would either sell the petroglyphs with their eyes shot out. Is there anything to be done about that. The greatest protection for Petrobras as far as I can tell as anonymity nobody knows are there. And you can appreciate him as much. As many can read but that unfortunately is the way it is.

And the reason why these are fans and the reason why this land is restricted is to see these things and if you want to share them with the world pretty soon we're going to have no brush here no no petroglyphs nothing. We'll share it to death. And somewhere we have to make that choice. In To me there's not really a choice. You know if you can restrict it and save it for ten thousand years from now. What about weathering a lot of petroglyphs are carved in sandstone which tends to wither easily in the heavy wind or rain or snow. Does anything to prevent them from simply disappearing over time. I think again I had to keep saying white people but you know you didn't have many of the values that we take for granted are European in nature. And they think everything has to be saved you have to know everything but you don't have to know everything and there's many things you shouldn't know and only special knowledge

for certain people. I believe that in this same way that everything shouldn't be saved. There are things in this world that I mean to to recycle. To go back into the earth. And these are one and they'll last as long as are supposed to. And then they'll go and there's where stopping and I'm sure you can casement plastic or something but that. By the time they're ready to go something else will happen to take their place. There always has been snow and that's right. We had it. I worked in the museum once that had one of these petroglyphs. Designs cut out. And they brought it in a museum and put it on display and it ended fingernail apart and begin to separate and it just broke apart about a year. And ironically if you will on a cliff I have no doubt in my mind it would still be intact.

In just the atmosphere the environment change and it just broke apart. Are there any particular aspects of any of the sites here in Wyoming. Legend Rock Castle Garden didn't win. But you. Pay particularly close attention to is be distinctive to these sites. Like any other picture. They're all they're all distinctive. Here you have the greet the great panels. And Legend rock you have there. More of an ethnographic over could see animals rabbits in Buffalo or elk cougar all of these things plus the spiritual figures. And Castle Rock You see the planes influence coming in here. We have these gigantic shields. I mean it's all even if people made it today it would be very impressive. But because it was made so long ago and they still survive and they're way out in the nowhere just makes it such and such a treat. And there's a lot of them here

and we reassure and try to protect them and if not hide them something and do something. Just don't let things go on. Because every year that I come back I see more damage. But I know there are a number of sites that are not advertised even in terms that are kept fairly secret. You talk a little bit about successions other things that would come after petroglyphs if it actually were a way other people are making petroglyphs. I don't I don't know but that's the way with humans. You know that if you go on. Significant things go on. You just are not born at this minute and this is the most perfect. You know there was a perfect thing. Before and after we've passed they'll be perfect thing. So all of this is a long chain of life that goes on. And is beautiful. One way to protect ancient petroglyphs is secrecy. As George Horace Kaptur has pointed out we

purposefully on identifying the location of the panels on standing in front of. Another way is education. We want people to understand that these are more than just pre-Colombian artifacts. For some people for Indian people they have a special spiritual vitality. We need to respect that. This has been Main Street Wyoming. Thanks for joining us. Just a little time with street thick stream clouds piled up like coal oil robot as wide as the sea. A big crow with it a little kids and they're all on me. Down the road. Means the same thing. Let's chance roo baggy clothes on wheels won't you will you get your feet down Main Street. Powder River to the Wind River is from Oregon Trail the dino

cold whose Hill do you go Meigs on that you d train rolling for. Male bugs bed with blood shed. BIG MOE the moose stands where when the. Real bug here going to tug the line the way Indian the buffalo. By. No. Means. The same she whistlin with radio be black cow bell plus the belly of the beast down the Main Street. The. Ancient people scratch art into the rocks of Wyoming. Today those petroglyphs open a window on the distant past. Join us

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