Wyoming Chronicle; Interview with Senator Alan K. Simpson and Wife

We're talking to and Simpson of Codie and at her insistence she's brought her spouse Senator Alan. Simpson. Next on Wyoming Chronicle. Well. A couple of years ago I started making some trips up to Cody Wyoming to the whole of London and Simpson to talk to them about his family his upbringing his life and his career in Wyoming legislature in the U.S. Senate and after. I think you said a couple of times Senator that we were doing this in anticipation of your dying but as we worked on this year and I did. I just didn't really mean that. But what we've talked and talked so much I think I'm going to die before the vote so that's really tough. That was never the plan or the No. And in fact one of the things that we're here to talk about today is really all the things that you are all involved in since your career ended. Back in Washington back in the in the middle 1990s because you're still very active both of you and doing a lot of things. So let's let's start right into that. The kinds of activities and issues that you're involved in I can

start the list but I'd I'd rather the two of you did it since I'm really here to interview and Simpsonville start with themselves. So you want to know what we're involved in right now. You bet. Well right now my biggest project is to raise funds for the sleeping giant ski area in Cody. First of all it was to get it going. And now it is operating in now we need to raise funds to sustain it. But we are also working on a marvelous project. With your recreation coalition to involve the all the outdoor sports. And make sure that they're funded we're looking into developing a coalition and interested in getting donors to contribute. One time. Big contribution hopefully. And then we will work to match these funds. For. Nordic skiing and bicycling and wild horse projects. I just have males but the ice really big time is a big projects are. Lots of things some

of that I will have forgotten but all the winter recreation too because Cody has so much to for sure and we want people to know that I get him there in the winter. I think there's a lot of there's an assumption that when someone's had a fairly long career in Washington of course you have a real estate career in Washington as well that they don't really come home. They stay back there they become lobbyist consultants all that sort of thing. You folks of course went to Harvard for a while. So I bet you there were a few people who were surprised even though you always said you would that you were coming back to Codie which you have. Well our boys were did not go to school Washington and were in college by the time we went to Washington. I got it was 16. And they all live in Cody Wyoming so why would we want to live anywhere else. Sure. But she's very active in mental health to the very active when talking about the Pocatello story. Well as you were saying that I think of the as the great Senator Clark I believe it was

a very well known news person stopped in Pocatello and called. Those were the days that the operator called and said I said to Clark has retired and I know he's from Pocatello could I get his number. She said they never come back to Pocatello and he would come if column just about what you just spoke about. But we had always planned to come back and Al's father came back and Livingston came back and Malcolm came back now and came back. This is a wonderful state who would not want to come back here. Well and even from the roost in Cody you're very active in things that are not just local. You're very active locally with the museum as well and the Art Museum in Wyoming what university there. Well I was on the board of the University of Wyoming for 30 years now emeritus but. I was the one who came up with the idea the art will be built and did all my fundraising in Washington with lobbyists who did business in Miami and eventually they named Our made me laugh. On that is been the project probably

closest to my heart. Your husband Senator from Wyoming. Yes and you do a lot of coal. This is an oil business. I mean remember oh yes we'll help you right. I was merciless. But people did return my calls and I didn't mention. That I was Mary Dauphin's. Sure sure. I'm going to I'm going to use that to kind of swing to a serious area there that you've actually worked on both before and after your time in the Senate and that is the influence of fundraising and money raising for politicians who have to raise money for their campaigns and things. It's it's going on for Gore almost all the time and you kind of campaign against that. I I'll get hell for it again. But I've I've got I don't know if you have a supportive spouse or an amiable companion and wonderful children. But let me tell you. I think that Supreme Court decision on campaign finance is is going to come back and haunt people. How they can describe a corporation as an individual that and I think most Republicans seem

very thrilled that corporations now can throw in unlimited cash for getting that unions can throw in unlimited cash. And the worst part is that happened with Craig Thomson or Craig Thomas our dear pal past. He was in his campaign said that ad came up he didn't know anything about. And it said that Craig Thomas was this or that or favor this and that and it was and he said Who are these people we are going to see you're going to see not one of those they're going to it's going to disrupt your campaign you're going to suddenly dig up something maybe you're trying to finesse sure not hide. But maybe you don't want to talk all day about a red hot issue. So you talk about hope it goes away and suddenly an ad comes disrupts your whole campaign disrupts everything you're doing. And I don't see how it can. But I was on a thing called Americans for campaign reform with Bill Bradley former senator Warren Rudman Republican Bradley a Democrat and Bob Kerrey a Democrat and all were trying to do is say. We think we need to go to some

federal financing of House and Senate and presidential races have to put in five bucks a gallon. Got to show that you've had a lot of five guys come your way before you get the financing. It's a good bill. I tell you it's an uphill struggle now with let's say a court decision say it's just to get back to where we were even a year ago now was going to be a struggle and that's even further when you go to actual public financing going to be and it would have cost about a billion eight do what we were thinking of doing. And meanwhile if you don't do that you've got earmarks that cost you know 80 90 billion. And that's what earmarks are directly the result of campaign contributions gone awry. It's time to pay up. So and Simpson you would have seen this firsthand the amount of time. That a politician a legislator has to put into campaigning and raising money. And. You know I guess I'd I'd like to get your view on that too. I mean. As opposed to the business of governing of legislating. There is a great deal of that work that just goes into raising money.

I certainly do what the answer is. I can go with it. I remember seeing how making calls in his first campaign raising funds and that was always the toughest thing to do. And the access of people who had been big contributors. That's just a state of the art. Well and in fact that is what contributors expect they expect at least that people who were targeted in your campaign believe in you but they also want you to believe in them. So. There is no easy answer. Well let's let's just look at the period when you were back in Washington and serving in the Senate and how it has or hasn't changed from that time. I mean you left you know in the early 90s when there was a bit of what they called the Gingrich revolution taking place in the house. And a lot of that had come over to the Senate as well. And it seems as if the ability to work across the aisle and accept the kind of diverse views is diminished. But I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth. You talk about how you think things have changed.

Well it's a tremendous difference. We had social events with colleagues. There were some giants in the Senate when I was there at least in my mind. Others maybe not but. Russell long as Jack Javitz scoop Jackson. Abe Ribicoff there were some people who were Mark Hatfield who Magnuson. I mean there was there was a partial and and and. And you worked with them. There was there was a core jollity. Kennedy Kennedy came there with that. You know the same year that was and David one ahead of him in seniority said don't forget that kid. I'm ahead of you. And so Dad when I went to the Senate and said you know get to know Kennedy we didn't agree on things but I enjoyed the kid and he calls his parents as much pain as you cause your mother. And we laughed. But I did get to know him became a great friend and there was a reason he never violated his word with me once.

I don't care about his life or what he did. But nowadays it's just it instead of saying this is stupid and idiotic and boneheaded. It's now this person is stupid and idiotic and blah and boneheaded a big difference between calling the issue a pile of something and calling the person the pilot something. And that's the difference. Now it's all personal and boy Nalen and it is unsavory to say the least. There's another change you've talked to me about before too and that was you describe coming to the Senate. It was kind of a dark chamber. And then the lights went out and we when we say lights we mean these guys the lights we were talking about television. And how that changed the personality and the way in which people communicated with each other. Well here's one for you brother. The name Newt Gingrich. George Bush this last one that George Bush. Violated his pledge because he could get a package which called for structural reform two year budgeting getting the entitlements under control and he said look it's going to be suicide if I do that.

So you Republicans have to stick the House and Senate Republicans stuck. We voted in the in the Senate. It was 62 to something. It went to the House and Newt got up and said you know and he voted against it and urged others to vote against it and they said what are you doing. You were out there and you agreed. He said well I did well I was part of the group. Now I'm voting as an individual and you go look at the roll call vote. Here's Newt Gingrich and Pete Stark. And I mean all the liberals and conservatives are me and Howard Berman and Barney Frank all voting together to cremate George Bush. No that's not my idea of politics. Now people don't like that when I bring it up. Go look at the roll call vote. And go look at the clip in the American experience on PBS of Newt Gingrich saying when I was in there I was for it as a group but now I'm voting as a person which just took everybody by gasping surprise and we lost

everything we lost everything we wouldn't even be talking about now. I talked to a number of friends of yours and colleagues of yours from those days Jim Baker and your friend the historian David McCullough as well and they've talked about. Hoping for. A return to the kind of civility that existed. And I don't I mean we know there was fireworks it wasn't all. You know my esteemed friend and all that sort of thing. There was there was some real tough talk but. I guess they're talking about a different way of dealing with people in a different frame of mind among politicians in office. You want to talk about that a little bit. What was it certainly seems to me that when so many of the house movers came over young and feisty That certainly changed the tone the cinders had been a more seasoned disciplined group and. That. Really was a very distinct change that I felt. And this would have been in the late 80s and 90s. As that shift began. Spouses two spouses and they never saw the spouses then when the House members had been used to leaving their spouses at home when they came to the Senate for a six year term

they still did. And so the social interaction diminished. And know it's even more so now it's fewer and fewer spouses come because of the workload and why be in Washington if your husband is leaving for the weekend. And going back to the States you might as well stay there you wouldn't see him anyway. But you know that's actually an interesting point you raise. I think this has come up in our conversations as well that. Part of what made for those collegial relationships and that ability to work through differences and problems was that you all knew each other in a much deeper way as couples as families. And I guess that isn't as true anymore and certainly traveling together was the most importantly to get to know other couples of the nonpartisan issues that that's where we developed our friendships with the other side of the aisle. And you're talking about traveling on hunting trips trips and starting things. Well you know they were called any time you went. They were called a junket. So you have

you had to show and I would go to the people I always say here I'm going to China what am I going to do. I'm going to go to Taiwan and meet the Governor Mike Sullivan. We're going to work on trade really go on into the interior. We're going to go with a bunch of Democrats Republic and going with me and pay him her all her own all her way. I'm paying that. But still it was called a junket. And unfortunately when I think it was three or four years ago I think 64 percent of the House Republicans said proud. Proudly I don't have a passport. Well I tell you again if you don't have a passport and know what the hell's going on in the rest of the world this country is in deep trouble. This is this is not the USA anymore. It's a classical world things is not world government or the U.N. running Wyoming. It's not that. It's just knowledge. And I mentioned to you before that for us the junkets were not as effective as the Aspen Institute goods which were not federally funded they were

privately funded. And we stayed in one place. And. Had sanctions the wives participated in. And then we'd spend time in the afternoon and evening together. Those were great bonding experiences. When you look at Washington today we've got you know a pretty ambitious administration came in with a whole new set of agendas just as the Bush administration before them had. And ran into kind of a wall certainly on health care reform which was an issue that. Both parties I think aspired to deal with but can't seem to come anywhere near agreeing. I guess I'd ask you to take a little thought about a couple of these big issues like health care reform. Do you see any way for something like that to happen or should it not happen. Well that will happen because you have a Democratic president and a Democratic House Democratic Senate who promised under God's oath that they would produce a health care bill years ago. You're too young to remember there was a labor bill passed Humphrey-Hawkins. It was nothing it was a sparrow belch but it was a

labor bill trying to get rid of Taft-Hartley which was the one they hated. So they always said we'd passed the labor bill but it was nothing. They will pass something and it will be nothing. However they will split up. They will get into some splitting up and that'll work. But the tragedy of it all and one minute I saw it is that they set a deadline. We're going to have this by December 1st. You can't do that to a legislature or two judges. You cannot set a deadline. And they did. And of course they have not met any of them. So I think you're going to see them split up. They're going to be I mean pre-existing conditions are going to be this or that or there will be something with regard to whatever and what they'll split up something and come up with something there won't be any question that they will walk away this session without saying we did a health care bill. And do you think any Republicans are likely to cross that. I think they will because they will break it up into something that's palatable because now he has no choice because this and don't forget this new guy he isn't really there because he's a great Republican. In fact he's a pro-choice Catholic

we're going to talk about that. The most shocking thing you know my not. They were people that the Democrats and the Republicans this is the American people rising which is great because American the American people are smarter than their politicians and they always have been. Massachusetts should not thrill anybody but it should thrill everybody. Because it shows the American people are tired of this guff from both sides tired of not dealing with the tough issues of entitlements. And Social Security. I mean ladies and gentlemen that's only one way to save Social Security either raise the payroll tax and reduce the benefits or do something to affluence test the benefits. There you go. You're saying things that I know your party in power right now would probably not agree with. Everyone is afraid of Democrats too. And don't forget that commission vote was 53 votes to set it up. Very bipartisan. And. What when this thing airs. I'll be involved in

things in that area again. Well let's talk a little bit about some of these third rail issues that people do have to stay away from social issues are obviously a there's an interesting contrast between different kinds of conservatism. There's the kind of Edmund Burke and even libertarian conservatism where it's minimal government keep your hands off people's lives. But there are social conservatives now to kind of reach in and want to use the government to kind of correct the way people live as they see it. You were pro-choice. I think that's a pretty unusual position for a Republican these days. I assume there's been no wavering on that. No but let and describe what she helped me with when people ask you I know that was the toughest decision ever made for me. It was very simple. I'm opposed to abortion but I also believe women should have a choice. I don't believe government should be in it at all. I know there's no one who is pushing for abortions. We haven't adopted grandchild. And. There is no way that

government should be involved in that. In my opinion. Well I wasn't and that influenced me. But she helped me when she said I'll just tell people no plans for abortion who held for abortion it's terrible but it's a deeply intimate and personal decision. I've often said and I don't think men legislators should even vote on the issue. I was going to ask who smokes people that always check I said Do I need to check with you if I get a vasectomy. I mean I don't believe I do. I mean this is nuts and and it destroys our party. These social issues. And don't forget how we just won the governorship of Virginia and New Jersey. And the senator in Massachusetts. Guess what. They didn't get cornered in the issue of abortion or cornered in the issue of homosexuals or gays or lesbians. That's not for Ashmont. We're all we're all God's children. What is this about. So what's fascinating to me to see that they all three were elected and all three of them because they they didn't get tangled up in

the emotional treatise. Thank you. Please do. It is interesting to me. I'm sure the comforting thing is that we've seen what's happened with the extremes of both sides. We've also seen an election proved people are tired of that. And so as Al's father used to say the teacher board of life goes up the PTA or board of life goes. Do we have to learn the hard way all the time. So hopefully the country is learning but I know when when you announced that you weren't going to run again in 1995 you said yeah things get extreme on either side. They just do that all these things fill in the center. When is that going to happen. It will happen because of this vote in Massachusetts. That's a good indicator. This is like the crafting of the Arctic ice cap. To a politician. Let me tell you I can I just kind of wish I coulda been in the caucuses the next week. Democrats and Republicans saying Holy smokes they really

don't like us both and they really want us to get off our butts and do something sir and to do something is not to get rid of fraud waste and abuse and foreign aid. That's a spiral Belchers. Nothing in there to get money that's less than 1 percent it's social security the entitlements and Medicare. And until you get in there and dig and slay sacred cows this is a disaster because we sort of see that with Obama's freeze what it really freezes is so little because the big entitlement programs go out and try and you know I don't know how you feel about this but do you think we're heading over a precipice with all the kind of deficit spending we're doing. Well I live for the moment was a big horn County rable he said Alan you people in Codi. Were always on credit. We've paid cash grateful and she trained me after seven years we paid off all our debt. And if you if you can't if you can't imagine your own life as

to what the national life is the Chinese people are waiting like vultures on the edge of the cliff that they've got all our Treasury bills and they're just saying well keep doing what you're doing and we'll be right here to gather up the pieces. So landfills all over the world. You know you get unlimited spending doesn't work. Empires fall. It happens. Was the night. The good thing is we're showing fingers now that here's the revenue and here's the expenditure. And no one is questioning the figure and it's billions hundreds of billions apart trillions apart. Well I get stop me. Hit me. Well I mean again have the willingness to take on those kinds of issues though which is sadly lacking I think in Washington these days are pretty gun shy about it. I think it will take place and very soon. OK. Let's talk a little bit more then about about the kinds of activities that you all are still involved in. I just feel I have to emphasize again if anybody thought that we were doing the kind of

definitive piece on Senator Simpson and Simpson's lives we don't think so for a minute. There's still a lot going on so I know some of the things you're involved in a campaign for literacy or for reading writing excuse me that you've been involved with Senator former Senator Bob Kerrey. Of course your work with Bill Bradley on campaign finance reform. There was tort reform while you were involved in some efforts in that area. Yes. My sense of talking about the authorities for some course yeah. And I Gerry Spence and I agree Mahoney started the sweller. Mike started the Wyoming trial lawyers association. They. Dad what do you do. I said I changed my mind. Do you think Gerry Spence still has some words of advice for you on that too. I love the guy. He's a piece of work. And we have had you can hear those of one of the best or. What did he have now. I tried to have. Well where were we. You know you've been very lucky to have and since and beside you a lot of you because she she puts

the zipper on the mouth every now and then. I've been through that experience walking with you at one point when she stepped in and this goes into that whole other area that was part of your very public career and statements about the media. I could not have ever succeeded in life without this woman because. I think I'm must sure of this. We've been married a few years and I said why did we wait that time. You know I kind of proposed in a clumsy way and she bit and then we waited a year. Why did we wait that year. And she said Well I'll tell you why. I thought you were a lush. Or you might be a wash. You really love to suck up the suds and smoke a cigarette. And I didn't want to be married to anybody like them. So what a wonderful thing to say. A wonderful man. He he was good raw material. Well you know that that whole thing though the way you dealt with the media which loved you initially and then some of the bumps that you had with him.

And Simpson you watched all of that unfold and you watched that happen to you but you pulled him back a couple of times so he was getting into the game. He just kept getting in D-3 knee deep or I said something I've never said to him before. Never said since. You just have to shut up because you've gone too far. You be so admired here. What are you doing you're just kicking yourself in the leg. Well you know we're we're out of time and you just said that so we don't even have to ask Senator Simpson for another comment. Just kidding. No. Good. Yes. I want to thank you both. I mean we've had a tremendous access that you've offered us for all your distrust of the media. I don't just trust. First Amendment belongs to me. OK. That's all I felt. You know I. That I'm supposed to say sleight time and this is when they say I'm just supposed to say silent Wallingham or me I don't stay home I hammer them. OK. He just believes it has to go both ways. I do. I do. I was invited back. Indeed we have. CHARLIE ROSE Yes. Charlie last week gave him a big hug.

But the old saying everywhere. Never get in a fight with anyone who I in the barrel I couldn't before I lost it. Thank you very much for being with us and I'm just going to say to the folks at home a Wyoming Chronicle you can access this on Wyoming PBS dot org. Do you want to see back shows or if you need to review this one to see if we told the truth all through it again. Thank you both very much for being with us. And folks come back to Wyoming. Did you like working. Well pleasure.