Main Street, Wyoming; 605; Gerry Spence

Main Street Wyoming is made possible by Kennicott energy company proud to be a part of Wyoming's future in the coal and uranium industries which includes exploration mining and production. And the Wyoming Council for the Humanities enriching the lives of Wyoming people through their study of Wyoming history values and ideas. Called by many America's greatest trial lawyer Gerry Spence is truly Wyoming's native son. Born in Laramie raised in Sheridan and educated at the University of Wyoming. Gerry Spence learned his trade in the courtrooms and mountains of our state. Join us on Main Street Wyoming to discover the past and future. The man behind the headlines, Gerry Spence. Welcome to Main Street Wyoming. I'm Deborah Hammond and my guest on today's program is

Gerry Spence. Most of us know him through his work in the court room, his television appearances all one of his many bestselling books, but he's come to Riverton to talk to students and share his photography. He's changed immeasurably from those days when he served as Fremont County prosecutor. Gerry can you describe for me what you were like in the 50s in the early 60s when you lived in Riverton and you were the county prosecutor. You know I've asked a lot of people that I mean what was I like. You know people don't want to tell me. And say well I only you know if you really want to know Jerry, should we really answer that question for you, what you were really like. I was young. I still had pimples. (DH) "You say that a lot in your book, you say the pimply faced". Yeah I was 20, I was 23 years old when I came here I was the youngest attorney in the state and became the youngest prosecutor in the state and I, and I know I wasn't ummm, the community was a very this

community was a very tolerant place for me to come. I mean they were patient with me and they made room for me. And I can remember people saying well he's a son of bitch, but he's our son of a bitch. I was ummm brash arrogant, ummm egocentric egotistical. ummm Confused I was hurt. Things that happen in my life that had hurt me as a child and as a more as a young, young man. I was ummm, but I was angry. And so who was? I was somebody with all

was in all of those ways. Trying very hard to be acceptable. To people. When I when I found it very difficult to be acceptable to myself. (DH) "You talk about that about trying to be in the country club set and trying to appeal to all these different things and yet you were doing all of these, these kind of brash things especially towards the towards the end of that period of time as you entered the 60's. You know what I think is interesting though is that you chose to remain in Wyoming. I've always said that people can't get too cuffed up in this state because there's always someone from their past who remembers them back when and I think what's interesting is that you've been very open about your life at that time. Why did you stay in Wyoming you could have gone someplace else where you know only the people in Riverton would have known this about you?" Well, I think it's a, it's a salmon that was coming down the stream. And you grab the salmon and say, How come you stay in the stream you went to the ocean but you always come back

up the same stream. Why do you do that? And the salmon I would say because this is my stream. This is where I grew up. This is where I feel comfortable. This is who I am. I am a salmon belongs in this stream. (DH) "In this time and age when everybody seems to move so much that's interesting that you've made that choice. In your book, Gunning for Justice which is so out of biographical, you describe. Growing up in Sheridan about hunting with your father and then you use that consistently as a metaphor for your experiences in the courtroom. Can you describe that for me what it was like when you were growing up and in hunting with your dad?" Well I grew up as a. As a kind of savage little boy. Ummm, I think if you were to lay out the genes that we, that we really have, you know there aren't any television genes in there. There

aren't any book genes in there. There aren't any really agricultural genes in there or manufacturing genes or hardly any of those things there. The whole. Genetics from the beginning of time back three and a half four and a half million years up until this time which covers just the tiniest bit of history just that much. But all of the rest, is a history of hunters and gatherers. And I grew up hunting and gathering. I grew up as a as a boy who if you asked me what my father did although he had a job I would have said well he's a hunter. He hunts and he fishes. That's what he does. And if you asked me what my mother did I would say she was a camp tender. She kept care of the camp. She took care of the camp and she gathered the

cherries and the currants and the gooseberries and the wild raspberries. And ummm, she preserved them and she took care of the meat that my father brought home. And so if you were to look at me as a child I grew up, I lived all summer in a tent. (DH) "If you told the reason for that I mean that's the other side of your parents. You have this idea of this savage upbringing, that your parents believe so strongly in education. Can you share why you were in the tent in the summer?" Yes, I was in the tent and in the summer because. Because in those Depression days we did everything that we could to survive and that included to rent out my room in the summertime to tourists. So I slept in the tent, felt quite natural for me to sleep in the tent, I can remember and then, then I would come in and in the daytime and and ummm do the laundry and for the

room that was rented out 50 cents a night pressed the sheets, hang the sheets up, first of course wash them and hang them up and then we brought them in and pressed them with those old old cast iron irons that we heated on the stove. So and that money went into the college fund. Jerry's college fund so he could get an education. (DH) "When you describe these things what pieces of that do you think are still in you, that make you who you are today?" Every one of them are in me, just like every experience that you had is in you. We are what we have done and what we've experienced and it's all there. (DH) "Do you think those experiences would be different had you grown up someplace other than Wyoming how much of it is you know our way of life in Wyoming?" Some of it would have been quite different. Ummm, you know what

we, we should be so aware of this as we raise our children about their primary experiences. The primary experiences are those foundational experiences against which the child and later the adult, foundation against which the child related the adult tests everything and values evaluates everything. And so you need to have important real, here the word real primary experiences. A primary experience for me would have been to stand out at night with my mother learning the constellations of the stars, not watching a television program. It would be have learned how to make a fire with flint steel not how somebody some comedian might entertain me on television. It was to dress out a deer uhhh, that had been killed. It was

to know that if I wounded a deer that it was a crime, the worst crime a man could commit almost was to wound an animal and not get the animal, not to let it waste to let it suffer. The primary experiences of fishing and understanding where fish lie in the stream and how to catch them and how to eat them fresh in the pan, so they, so fresh they would curl in the pan, those are primary experiences that I had as a child and what how much different those are than the primary experiences that we give our children now when they see. silly little things on television we think are ok like Sesame Street. Little little things that are yakking at them. That's a primary experience for a lot of children isn't real. They can't touch it can't smell it they can't deal with it. The worst ones of course are the ones of violence and emptiness. Even the emptiness is worse than

violence itself. I mean the programs that we watch endlessly, on television which are utterly totally empty of anything except canned laughter. (DH) "You leave it and I have, you have evenings like that every once in a while with people and you go away and you said well it was like chewing gum. You know there is no nourishment nothing for me to think about the next day there is just were there and you went through the motions and and you know that's one of the things that's interesting to me in Wyoming is that, that we have these elemental things that you've described you know those basic life forces. But there is such a need for thought, for ideas, for development for contact with other people. You know we have such isolation. Ummm, obviously". (GS) "No, wait a minute" (DH) "No, you don't agree with that" (GS) "No". (DH) "What do you think? You don't think there's a basic need for some people to" Yeah I think that we all believe that we have a need because we're so isolated that we have a need to touch the mainstream. But I don't know, the mainstream is muddy.

And the mainstream is murky and it's it's full of toxins. The mainstream is not like a clear stream in Wyoming. And I don't think we need to touch the mainstream. I think we need to know that it's out there but we have this huge fear of being provincial of being insular. And why not be provincial. And why not be insular. I've always been proud that I was provincial and insular. (DH) "Well don't you think and I didn't mean to connect with the mainstream. I mean, just connect with another human being who has thoughts that your challenged". I had that, I had a big problem here in Riverton on that basis, I thought, I had a very difficult time because I had a I had a hard time finding people that I could communicate with. That doesn't mean that they weren't here it means I had a hard time finding them. I can remember the story of Job in the Bible you know when

when God came to job and he said, "Job gather up my people". Job said well who are they. Who are your people. How will I know them and God said, "they will make themselves know unto you". And so in Riverton I used to think well they will make themselves known unto to me. And there were some that did. There were indeed some who did. And not, I'm not talking about God's people I'm talking about people with whom I could be compatible with whom I could be compatible people who who could understand, and that I could understand that we had something in common and mostly in the area of creativity. Could I read a poem to somebody that would appreciate it, could I show them a painting that I had just done, without them asking me what does it

mean. (DM) "You've led right into the other part of what I wanted to find out about Gerry Spence and that is, there are the elements of you know, you didn't wear your buckskin jacket today but but you certainly still look Western. And so that that personifies for many people. Wyoming, our Western way of live". Well I thought I would treat you, because you know everybody gets to I wear my best buckskin jacket everywhere and I said Imogene what should I wear today? and she said why don't you treat your old friends and wear something other than your buckskin. (DH) "It looks wonderful, I think this should be your new uniform have a number of these. It looks terrific, but, but the other side of you which is definitely not I can see why you had trouble finding anyone that you could, you could talk to is your openness, which I think, I mean I think that Wyoming is very closed, ummm quiet, you don't reveal feelings, you're in

control, ummm you know you're a self made man, you don't show emotions". That's kind of right that's kind of you know you that's kind of the old frontier attitude. We don't, we don't talk about our feelings we don't, we don't let anybody know that we heard we know tell anybody that we're afraid, we aren't we're not aren't afraid of nothing and we aren't afraid of no man we aren't afraid of anything and we don't we don't have any of these. A man never cries, he never feels any, never lets anybody know that he's got any pain, he never knows never lets anybody know that he is vulnerable. Never lets anybody know he loves, and feels and cares. (DH)"And that from my understanding is a enormous part of your success in the court room and in other places this openness this willingness to show your own weaknesses you've even described it. You know tell the jury the weakness of the case. Be Simple be straightforward tell them about your own

inadequacies and that you come across a sound strong. It's interesting. How did how did this come about?". I don't know. It came about, it came about by I think something that most folks know about. Most of us in our lives have had pain. And ummm, I mean pain comes in all kinds of brands. There's all kinds of there's as many brands of pain as there are breakfast foods on the on the shelves in the store. So we've all had it. The question is what do you do with it. I mean when you have pain what do you do with it. Do you, do you feel it or don't you. If you don't feel it and deny it then something happens to you. What happens to you. You

deprive yourself of some of your life because you grow from pain. Do you, are you afraid? that's painful. Do you admit it and deal with your fear. Or do you hide it and and ummm, pretend that it's not there. My pain was too painful for me to hide, pain was too painful for me to, my pain and I'm sure my pain wasn't any more painful than yours or anybody else's. But my pain was too painful to hide or to ignore. I had only way I could deal with it was to lay it out to look at it and to acknowledge it and somehow if I could just deal with it and acknowledge it. Something magical happened. It seemed to go away. It might come back. It always came back.

But each time it came back, it came back with less force less power. It was like a nasty little dog. You ever had a nasty little dog nipping at your heels and if you run from it it continues to nip at your heelys as heels as you go down the street. But if you turn to the nasty little dog and face it the dog shy's away. And I discovered that along the way and I dealt with it mostly that way. (DH)"This dealing with it and and in essence helping it make you successful in the courtroom it is who you are. Ummm, there are people in Wyoming. There are people in the legal community who basically don't trust you. Ummm, and you've written that that you are the real one and that many of them are the actors.

What do you say to people who say that you're like an illegal weapon that shouldn't be allowed into a court room you know that you use magic and that you know you know". (GS) One time I had a, I had a well known lawyer in Cheyenne. Who's still alive by the way, I understand, I hope he hears this. Came to a fed,we were in federal court court and he'd study me, he'd watched me and come to my cases and inquired of me and worried about me and talk to other lawyers and tried cases about me and all the rest, watch me in court rooms. Because he had this case against. So we came into court and he went to the judge, the federal judge, Judge Heraj Raj from Denver. And moved the judge, to order Gerry Spence, not to hypnotize the jury but he was serious, he believed that I was hypnotizing juries and he said there is only one way that a man can be a successful, continuous continuously successful as you are and that is if you are hypnotizing them.

And have you noticed judge that he has a pencil in his hand sometimes and he has this rythmatic way of talking and he takes his pencil and moves it back and forth and the jury watches the pencil and the first thing you know the jury is hypnotized and I want you to order him not to hypnotize the jury anymore. So the judge said. "Mr. Spence are you hypnotizing juries, do you confess?" he said. I said, "I confess judge". He Laughed, He Laughed, He Laughed he said. "I order you Mr. Spence not to waive your pencil in front of the jury anymore". And so I didn't wave the pencil anymore and the lawyer lost his case, the other one. But the reason that he lost his case was because he gave me all of his power. You see when he began to worry about what I was and what I did he

gave me his power. Didn't he? He gave it to me when he began to worry about me. And ummm I've tried mostly to keep my own power. And and in answer to your question of what do I say to these people who say that, I keep my power by losing theirs. (DH) "When I think about and and I was struck during one of your most recent books was how to win every argument" (GS)"How to argue and win every time". (DH) "Thank you, I'm sorry. Ummm, Hows it doing? That's what I thought boy, that it's an interesting world though that you live in, in terms of the lawyers". Ummm. (GS)"Do read the New York times?" No I don't. Well it would cost five and a half bucks here if you buy it in Wyoming, it costs five hundred and fifty,

five dollars and 50 cents in Jackson to get a damn copy of The New York Sunday Times. If you were reading the New York Sunday Times you would see that that particular book has been on the bestseller list for 18 weeks. It has sold. About four hundred and thirty thousand copies in hardcover and still its going strong. It has been purchased in 23 foreign nations. (DH) "Well and I was thinking about that. What I have read about is that I mean you know that could be up there with Dale Carnegie. I mean in terms of something that a tool that everyone". (GS) "or Dale Carnegie could be up there it" (DH) "with you". There's an example of Jerry Spence that's still (DH)"alive and well inside this person, oh shoot".

Well there's no way to easily segue from that ummm, particular ego. To your other thing that you do. I know that you mentioned painting, but you have photography that you do and it's magnificent. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I know, I've noticed that you do, ummm do black and white, you do a lot of the words for when do you go out and and take pictures. ?inaudible? But I'm glad I brought it over this morning. And I take pictures when they ever see what I want to take pictures but photography is a marvelous way to learn to look. I mean I look I've been looking at your set here as we've sat here and look at the contrast of black and white set the contrast between the blacks and the whites and the intermediate grays that make patterns and that's how we see things and between the patterns the colors the

shades not color shades. Create your face. Mind you it's my thing and we couldn't see the finger without it different with without the different shades that give it form. So it teaches you to see and it gives you a new appreciation because we walk usually walk through a woods and don't see anything. We know we've walked through the woods. We really haven't seen it. The sun comes up in the morning and most of us are in bed and we don't see the marvelous marvelous contrasts shades nature of light and the dancing of the light and forms that are created. One of my favorites of course is the is what light does aspens the beautiful light aspens and barked aspens in the sunlight so that one side will be absolutely simmering shimmering right in the other side will be almost dark and to

see the lines through the forest of Aspen after Aspen with the with the sun touching and skipping others almost like it does with you and me and the sunshine of life. It touches some of us and some of its business and we wonder why. You live with such gusto everything you do is more than the rest of us. It's seen that you're at a stage in your life now that that's different. You could officially retire. You've got your you're loving you know you've got your children your good friends your lovely home you forgot my grandchildren your grandchildren. You could simply enjoy those things take your pictures. What do you think you want. What. What do you want. Because you say I know part of the commitment to life is using all of your time. What do you think the future holds. Well I don't know if I knew I might be frightened. I

might run from it if I knew the knowledge of it might spoil the joy of the experience when I meet it. I have played most of my life like top class here at the college. This morning somebody asked me the same question when are you going to retire. And I said. Well when I retire what would you think I should do. Well he said maybe you should take a white rafting trip down the road. I said What else should I do. I mean after I've done that what else should. Seems to me this class that I had some advice for them. I don't want to ever work every day of their lives. I'm not working now or you know we're having too much fun and I'm afraid you know at that time we were fine.

I can't thank you enough for coming by this morning and I look forward with relish to see what the rest of your life brings me to. Thank you for joining us from Main Street. Why mainstreet Wyoming is made possible by Kennicott energy company. Proud to be a part of Wyoming's future in the coal and uranium industries which includes exploration mining and production and the Wyoming Council for the

Humanities enriching the lives of Wyoming people through the study of Wyoming history values and ideas.