Main Street, Wyoming; 312; Understanding the New Western Art

Mainstream Wyoming is made possible in part by grants from Kennicott energy. Proud to be a part of Wyoming's future in the uranium exploration mining and production industry and by a Wyoming Council for the Humanities enriching lives of Wyoming people through the study of Wyoming history values and ideas. Welcome to Main Street Wyoming. I'm Jeff O'Hara. Walking any art gallery in the Rocky Mountain West today and you'll see paintings that remind you of the pioneering 19th century work of Frederick Remington Thomas Moran Audubon and painters like them. The subjects are often familiar. There's wildlife there are cowboys noble Indians. Often there are mountains that remind you of the Tetons. Today on Main Street we're going to talk to Sam got the director of the Nicolaides art museum in Casper. We're going to talk about that 19th century style of art and its practitioners today. As well as some people who are doing a more contemporary form of Western art such as you see behind me here.

That. You've hung your share of traditional Western art. Charlie rustles the Frederick Remington's the Thomas Maryanne's. What do you think explains the popularity of that are still with Western audiences today. I think the appeal comes from it comes on a couple of different levels. I think there's first of all a historical Up-Hill an interest in actually seeing things as they were in the West as represented by someone who was there. I recall the history lessons in school and and getting the history book at school and flipping through and

looking for the pictures first because that for me that seemed to communicate the most significant aspects of what things were like way back when and I think that's a big part of the appeal of Western art for people now is to see images and scenes painted by someone who actually visited those sites and was there I think I think that's primary. Hill Peter has said that many of those artists who worked in the late 19th century in the West were doing a lot more than just working as artists they were anthropologists and historians preserving dying cultures that wouldn't be here within a few years. The Indians the buffalo hunters the rendezvous. What do you think of the value of that. That's absolutely true in fact many of the early expeditions had an expedition for example hired artist photographer to go along to make pictorial images that were were really seen as records as historical documents as anthropological records of people and the landscape was like at the time. So that's that's absolutely true.

We also have a lot of contemporary artists who are still working in the style of Remington or some of the older 19th century painters in traditional Western art forms with those same subjects. How do you explain the popularity of that art. No I don't have any doubt that about the popular appeal of that kind of art that's found such a broad market in the country. You know it certainly has its place. There are people who are technically and artistically very accomplished in that area and there's no doubt that that that draws people in and that they like to see that kind of thing. On the other hand you know I live in Wyoming and have lived in Wyoming for four years now and Montana for a longer time. And I don't live that. Mythic Western life that is represented in much of that work it's not my immediate experience of the West. I certainly won't deny that that's the experience that many people have in the West. But there are other aspects of living in the West that again

people like Snyder and other contemporary artists are addressing in much the same way that Remington address issues pertinent to his time museum directors like Sam gap more often have to balance the two poles of Western art painting displays of traditional art and one part of the gallery while the work of artists like Bill Snyder or elsewhere. One wonders whether viewers can appreciate both. I don't like to frame things exactly in terms of opposition art. There's lots of possibilities are lots of ways to do art. There are lots of subjects out there and I'm the kind of enthusiastic about some of the new art because it's approaching subjects and using techniques that have been neglected and the cowboy Art Association and the sort of art that people expect to see with the West. I think it needs to be broadened. Remington and Russell in a lot of the artists in the art association are terrific. That's fantastic work but there's lots of other things to see and there's lots of other ways to do it.

Where do you think those expectations come from what people expect to see in Western art. Well I think we're really looking at the east coast perception and Frederic Remington was a new York artist and other sort of work that he did. Got illest got into a book illustrations was widely circulated and came to be thought of as the art of the west just as the sort of landscape painting of Albert Biersch staff and Thomas Moran which most of it's on the East Coast right now really established an idea of the West for the east and they got stuck. They didn't know that there were other things that were happening out here regionally that there were other subjects besides those subjects. By those attack by those artists. So I think the real narrowness is back east. They don't understand that there's a lot of interesting things happening here. Do you feel about say the Wyoming audience I mean would they be more likely to come to an exhibit of hills niter or a Frederick Remington traveling exhibit. Oh everyone wants to see what they're comfortable with. Anywhere you know and then you were very familiar with this and you say Frederick Remington OK I'm at home it's like sliding into a warm

bath. Bill Snyder is a challenge shitz. Deliberately so. And then you have to sort of look and puzzle and think about it. And he's provoking the audience he's pushing it. Part of the experience of hill Sneider show is to be challenged perhaps a little bit angered and somewhat irritated as well as stopping and maybe thinking about what he's showing us. He'll Snyder is a different kind of cowboy artist from Texas one who certainly has a different way of seeing things. An exhibit of Snyder's work was hanging at the Nicolay some when we visited with Sam gabbler. I think my favorite piece in this show is one called The Dog Creek mare and hills Hills is a Texan and he talks with the son of a small Texas town and comes from a long line of Texas cattle man and he's also a poet and a musician and I think many of his pieces. This is an older piece particularly from that time have an aspect of poetry or narrative in it in a direct way that I think is very nice.

And so the story or the narrative behind that piece involves a group of cowboys in Miles City Montana who worked for the bucking horse sale there just sort of a big selling rodeo animals and miles and hills was an artist in residence in my city at the time and knew these cowboys and was familiar with them. And a woman who ran that operation I can't think of her name right now. Told him a story of several cowboys who pursued a particularly attractive and wild mare that resided around an area called Dog Creek and for several years the Cowboys tried to capture this man and she became something of an obsession with down the idea of owning this man really took primacy in airlines to the point that one of the cowboys became angry that he couldn't capture the horse and took his hunting rifle out and shot her dad. And which of course relates to many of the other pieces Hills has made about ownership of the land ownership of things. What it means to own

things and how you can own something without do something without changing something else. When you have an exhibit by a contemporary artist like say hill Snyder. Do you find you have to explain to audiences what they're looking at. Well you know again that comes to education and so with that piece we had hills write down the text of that story that we posted next to the piece and then on the piece. So we have on the wall next to the piece the story of the Dog Creek mare and then on a piece of self is are the words to a poem or a song that feels wrong. And so the interested gallery viewer you know has every opportunity to to see that in and appreciate what that piece is about the shot going through the guitar with the blot on the wall. Sort of poetic or the ending of music or poetry in the death of that. And then on top of the black form grave for the horse on a space that's it's barren and dismal on one side and green and lush On the other side.

You know there are implicit and somewhat simple symbolisms there that I think the interested person could could derive Byer by reading the poem on a piece and reading the text on the wall. Of course there are some people that come in and look at that same walk and you know that I'd love to stand there all day and and talk about the piece with anybody who would like to talk about. And we do that sometimes but I think there's certainly a real opportunity for someone to pick up some of the meaning of that piece. Oh I suppose that happens every so often. I mean I've talked to a few people that have come in here and then the general response is What's this. I didn't expect to see this here. And then they go on to something that they're a little more familiar with. But. That's that's not. That's common across the country. I mean there's nothing sort of special here about the Wyoming audience or the Wyoming experience or just come back from New York City. Saw some challenging modern art there. And quite often the people that are going through they're sort of saying oh I'm sophisticated. And also these

big white paintings here must be mean something. But. There is some challenge to I think you and there were responses not much different out here. I don't buy this provincialism. You know we don't see as much of this sort of thing here. That's why it's the nick is great because it's showing us some new things. And I'll be intrigued. I think they're building. I think we're kind of building a. New new set of expectations. Wyoming and the more experimental artist to get hired Kathy Shuki to run the children's Discovery Center at the Nicholas Cherokee's installations as she calls them are exhibited throughout the Rocky Mountain West. Almost all my installations. The. Main thing that. I'm. Driving from is about the every day and our every day and how. We react to when we do laundry when we react to our time that we have getting errands done making it something to eat for dinner. And when someone comes up and says you know what is this what explains to me they're not thinking they're not

looking. There. Are some block there that they have to step over themselves by me answering me isn't going to do that. And so actually I start asking them questions and. Then. Usually it takes off from there. So it is kind of a little ironic twist when they ask. How do you feel when people come up to you at one of your installations and say. What does it mean. Well usually. The reactions I get. Are from. From women my work is a lot about women's lives and they want to talk to me. They want to tell me stories and the stories are usually. Related. To the work. Very. Everyday occurrences. That usually you wouldn't think about as important enough to talk about. And so that's really exciting for me. I do get the other people that you know do say you know what is this. What is that all about. Most people I think they feel that are approaching me and saying it directly to me.

But you can sense that they're walking in and going. What's going on and walking out. Is there. Are there different. Shows say rooms in the art world. In other words. The room where the people go to see. A Remington canvas and the room where they go to see Kathy shrinky installations. You know those. Inhabited by different people. Probably. Like. Installation souvenirs of a day in Jackson. They can I refer to that case in. The gallery I showed him shows where Jackson Hole calls contemporary art. For Jackson it definitely is for Jackson Hall. So many galleries of Western art. So the people going to that that. Particular gallery art West. I think most of them are going to see something a little different than in the other galleries that are showing. And. And that particular piece is about souvenirs of every day but it's a Silverchair shop. But yeah I.

Made this work for Jackson knowing that Jackson is a tourist area and about the souvenirs but yet I'm showing in a gallery. So the objects become art because they're in a gallery. But yet I was making them as a souvenir. Do people in Wyoming and in the region need a kind of education to appreciate this or. They're. OK when you. Break it down to creativity. There's creativity thinking about the work and looking man and creativity and making it. And I'm one of the people that believes that you can feel not just born creative and that's it. How wonderful a gifted child. I think you work on it just as if you're a football player you work on. Your. Technique on football. And so I think that people need to be educated in a sense where they're teaching themselves and to train themselves to see different artwork and to learn with it and not just start to just react and say I like this and don't if you like it you're standing next to me and if you don't you're walking out the door. And I think it takes time. And.

So that's where the education comes in. There's the artist who works with isolation and does it for him or herself doesn't think at all about the audience and what they might react. To the art. In your case though you were very concerned with the audience and how they're going to react. I don't think so. I think that right now make it an object to hang on the wall. For someone to view and say. Boy they really know how to mix the paints extraordinarily well or. Get the shadow perfectly so that's so realistic. That's not interesting me in my work right now. So. When I. Work on my works. The audience coming to see it I want them to feel real part of it. They can hate it. That doesn't bother me. For someone to come and react is what's exciting to me. So sometimes I have them do different. How do you think people are reacting to your art. When you see them doing an installation here in Wyoming.

The people that are coming to the openings are different than the people that are coming afterwards. Without me being there. So the people that are coming I think feel more comfortable doing an installation art contemporary art in Wyoming for the people afterwards that come up. Some of them tell me weeks later after seeing them for days that they went and saw my show and then I think they wait to hear what I have to say and I usually instead of explaining I mean to say you know I'm really glad I'm Or wasn't it humorous or far did you know. Did you think about this or that when you saw it. I try not to pinpoint people. I think that some people are nervous that there's maybe even more to it. Than there really is or that they're afraid to just get it all and they're afraid to ask and you know my work is about questions. And. And. So I think I'm a little scared to approach me sometimes. Is that insecurity particular to Wyoming. In Philadelphia too.

I bet you'd find in Philadelphia to just be you know working here for the last two years so I'm concentrating on thinking. What's the difference between an audience in New York and audience in Wyoming. What I mean is what do people here bring to an exhibit. In Wyoming. The people that come have a lot of space around them. They live in a state where it's not very populated and if. They can. They. Have stories to tell me about themselves that have a lot to do with their own lives in their own space and they can react to it in L.A. when I had a piece up. People were just. Kind of astonished that day. That it was a whole different way of looking at life. They're constantly busy their time frame in their days different. And. It was interesting to see the difference. I think there are people who might think that the art world has sort of raised the head of the audience. Do you think there's a problem with education is a big issue. I think it becomes more of a necessity and more of an issue with contemporary art than

it does with art that is more accessible. Know we certainly try to show a mixed bag of things things that are immediately assessable things that are more challenging. But as an educational institution the way we do certainly feel an obligation to provide whatever kinds of materials or information is necessary for someone to at least get a toll up on whatever it is we're showing. Is there a place in the art world for so-called Western art artists either by the Remingtons or the calendar or imitative of them. Is that useful to you or anyone else in the contemporary world. It's. Important to have it. Around. It's important to have it shown. It's it's part of our history. We need to see it. We need to do it. We need to be educated by it and know what was happening and what were they were thinking about when they were painting it and where they were. Personally I don't think that

I'm going to be making that type of art and I'm going back to it. But I'll use that as a reference to continue my work. Art has definitely evolved from the days when you entered a gallery expecting to find a two dimensional canvas even if it were abstract. No one would have to explain to you that this was art. As we see in Cathy Sharky's work in the art world today concept is often as important as craft. But when you mention the issue of conceptual and concept I think that's the whole thing. I think that is the direction we're moving from images that were primarily pictorial or represented things from from the real world to images or constructs that are primarily concept based. For instance the drawn by hills of the double image of the map of the United States I think it's called without. Hide your hair is technically not

technically that wasn't a challenging piece. I mean it's a very simple outline drawing but the idea is very interesting the idea of United States is upheld as something you don't ask for something and explore. And then the dotted lines that look like those those kinds of beefs that sort of divide up parceled out sort of those whole that whole set of issues about owning the land about Manifest Destiny about about dividing the land. Those are concepts that are interesting to me that are more interesting to me than say an artist's ability to draw or paint a tree with a high level of technical skill. It's really there are artists that are technically accomplished that that also address concepts and ideas. It's not an either or kind of thing. But with regard to your question about where we're headed I think I think concept is becoming has become more important and will continue to become an important aspect of what was with in

Remington and Calvin all those people too. I hope to be challenging them to the point that it's a real cycle where. A compliment would be. Great. Laughs. One of my works and I start asking questions to themselves or talking to their partner about the piece afterwards and. Referring back to themselves in their own lives. And to me that's very exciting. Isn't it. The attitude of some artist that you know I I do my work comes from within. I present it. It's there it's hung in an exhibit. People just have to get it. I'm not going to come in and give you a lecture to go with it. Yeah that that attitude certainly exists with some artists but you know just like any other kind of person there's a range of attitude. I mean some artists feel that way very strongly and some artists love to talk about their work and love to have other people talk about their work. There's a range. Does the audience have to be dragged in the direction of the contemporary artists like Bill Snyder kicking

and screaming. Yeah I don't know. I don't know about dragging people kicking and screaming into contemporary art. We did a show I think it was last year of an artist from pal John Gere is all juxtaposes scenes of contemporary life again scenes from a late Renaissance painter Caravaggio and those work concept heavy images that there there were many concept an idea oriented things that one could talk about when looking at the panes but they're also technically extremely accomplished and beautiful people would come to that and they'd see John's technical abilities and the physical pain of the beauty of the physical painting and they would be drawn into that. And then they could talk about concept and and things and so in that situation you're not dragging people kicking and screaming to. Whereas with Mills's work where at least in some of the later pieces that have become simplified I believe that's done on his part in an

effort to focus attention more clearly on concept rather than on you know wow look how well I can draw you. Let's let's think about this. I danced. That is a little more difficult. My experience though is that as we have our opportunities to talk about a piece with people or to produce a brochure or to have them do a dozen tour with a level of an appreciation and the level of acceptance increases dramatically. I think people are pre-open I think they bring up a whole suitcase full of preconceptions to the gallery but sometimes they need to leave at the door. And these include preconceptions that art has to be hard in order for me to like it and don't get hard. And maybe they could replace that with art. Art should have an intriguing idea. Give me something to think about. Main.

Street. Wyoming is made possible in part by grants from Kennicott energy. Proud to be a part of Wyoming's future in the uranium exploration mining and production industry. And by the Wyoming Council for the Humanities in ridging lives of Wyoming people through the study of Wyoming history values and ideas