Nancy Finken Interviews; Aviation, Recycling efforts in private businesses, rural Kansas Hospital struggles, Senator Bob Dole on resolution, growing grapes in Kansas,

[NANCY FINKEN]: Consumers who want to know more about the quality of US airlines may be able to use the data from Wichita State. The Institute for Aviation Research has developed a rating scale. It was authored by Brent Bowen and Jackie Luedtke. [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: "We've narrowed it down to 19 factors... from, like 89 factors is what we first started out with, of different aspects of quantifiable data, for... the quality of the airlines. We assigned a two-factor analysis and...discussion with 65 experts in the field, from the FAA, Department of Transportation, from the different airlines themselves. We assigned a weighting band to each of these factors, so that each factor is not- they're not all equal. Some factors are more important than others and that sort of thing. But we've narrowed it down to 19 factors, from baggage complaints, oversales, the age of the aircraft, number of aircraft. We also included financial

data, such from Moody's, basically, that and on-time, different aspects like that. [NANCY FINKEN]: Is there anything like this already out there, any airline quality rating? [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: No, the ones that had been done previously have been from the consumer perspective. So, for instance, one consumer survey that we compared with ours was done with 4400 fliers and their perspective of quality on the airlines. But then that is just, as I said, specifically the qualitative aspect, where we're looking for quantifiable numbers that we could get on a regular basis every month, so that ours can be done quickly. For instance, where you can't get the consumer surveys of like 4400 every month, you had to- maybe every couple years could get that, but ours we can get on a timely basis, and so that ours then are more responsive

to the environment, of what's happening in the environment. Like if something changes, then ours will reflect that more. So this is actually the first survey of this type to be done. [NANCY FINKEN]: Luedtke says one of the factors that has a high weight is safety. [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: Number of accidents -- now, it does figure fairly high. It has a high weight assigned to it, so it is an important factor. And of course, also on our weights we have positive or negative signs assigned to each of these. So that for instance, the on-time factor is usually a positive factor. People usually think 'well, if you're on time, then that's good.' Uh...The pilot deviations and the number of accidents are also high-weighted, but they're a negative factor, so of course we're not seeing this well. So it does figure highly into the rating itself. [NANCY FINKEN]: Luedtke says a change in federal regulation opened more data to the public, which allowed the Wichita State University rating rating to be put together much easier and with more accuracy. [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: About a couple years ago is when the, I think the Department of Transportation

had mandated that regular data be made available to consumers. And so previously, before that time, you could not get all of the information that we had used. But now it's available, but most consumers, again, are not going to want to take the time to rank all of our factors and decide which factors are most important. So, we saw this as an opportunity then to, and a need, as I said, to combine all of the factors and make it available to consumers. [NANCY FINKEN]: So it has been pretty easy for you to get your hands on some of the data from each of the airlines to put together the report or the scale? [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: Well, not specifically from the airlines, but they report several of the factors to the Department of Transportation. So that is one of our sources. We also use the NTSB, the National Transportation... trying to think what that stands for- [NANCY FINKEN]: Safety Board? [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: Yes, right, the Safety Board. And we also have

databases of our own here at the institute for the average age of the fleet and the number of aircraft and that sort of thing. And of course our financial ratios that we've used from Moody's, is- that's more so available. It's- the data itself is not specifically available from each of the airlines. And that was part of our criteria, is that it be regularly available monthly. And so, the factors that we couldn't get easily that way, we had to leave out at this time. [NANCY FINKEN]: Luedtke says this first rating was based on figures used for January of this year. She says in the next several months, more and more reports will come out, and trends will develop. She says that's what she hopes airlines and consumers look at, not just one month-to-month basis, but what's going on year-to-year. [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: The airlines can look at this and use our data regularly, if they determine it's... We think it's a good source for them to monitor themselves. our first one is just like for this month of January of 1991, so it's a- just a specific point in time. And course, we're wanting to look at it over a period of time

as we go through each month and then through each quarter and then for the year. So, it's important to look for the quality over a period of time and not just one specific date. So the ones at the, like the end of the scale, they would be able to look and there may be specific reasons why they're there, which may automatically correct themselves, say in the next month or two. Or if there's a reason why they are at the end of the scale other than that, then-then maybe they need to be looking and-and... determine how they can improve their quality rating. [NANCY FINKEN]: Using the new airline quality rating developed at Wichita State's National Institute for Aviation Research, Luedtke lists the top ten major U.S. airlines, according to figures used for January of 1991. [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: Right now, we've got American as number one, Delta number two, and then it goes down the list. Southwest, United, US Air,

Pan Am, Northwest, Continental, TWA, and America West. [NANCY FINKEN]: Because there are so many factors that went into deciding the rating, do you think that people may develop a false sense of security, that 'okay I'm going to fly American because they're number one', that they would expect to get the kind of consumer service they're looking for in so many different areas? Obviously they can't be batting a thousand every time. [JACKIE LUEDTKE]: Specifically, we're not saying that, just because they're at the- maybe a certain airline's at the bottom of the list, that they are bad. That's not what we're saying at all, because of the top 10 major airlines, I wouldn't have any problem flying any of those. We're just showing basically, some of them may be having trouble within a certain month because of a promotion they had done, and then maybe it backfired. Or if they are consistently -- I think that's a key word -- at the bottom, then... the

consumer might be aware of that, that they are, maybe, having financial problems, or other aspects of quality that might not be quite as good as the top-rated airline. [NANCY FINKEN]: "Jackie Luedtke" is the business manager at the Institute for Aviation Research at Wichita State. The airline rankings will come out each month, and will be available to the public at a fee that's yet to be decided. In Hutchinson, I'm Nancy Finken. ***** [CLAUDE SCHEELER]: There seems to be, at the present time, a concern about compost -- which is our yard clippings -- because they're consuming about 20 percent of the volume in the landfills that's being collected to date, and that will continue, of course, through your growing season. The other two that are of particular interest and creating a lot of conversation, at the present time, are plastics and tires. We're all very conscious of the bottles and the aluminum and the paper, but those are halfway being resolved at the present time. The top of the priority list would be

tires, composting, and plastics. [JAY HUBER]: How big of a problem do you think there is in Kansas, of this issue? [CLAUDE SCHEELER]: Well, I don't think there's any problem with the public sector. I'm finding the last couple weeks that the youth and the education departments in schools and universities are quite conscious of preserving the earth and our environment. Probably our biggest concern is that government and industry are not keeping up with the public sector." [JAY HUBER]: And why would that be? [CLAUDE SCHEELER]: "More economics than anything else, because you just don't all of a sudden realize how you're going to dispose of old tires. You don't quite know how to get rid of all the plastics that we are using, not only in the drinks and the soft drink industry, but all the facial lotions, et cetera, that you buy at the drugstore that, uh,

plastic. So- then there's about 7 different types of plastic, and the closest plastic plant for recycling plastics this day and age is back in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. So, Dell & Storage have done an excellent job of, of accepting the milk jugs, the water jugs, et cetera. But I'm not really sure where they're disposing of it. But those 3 items are-are... are the priority." [JAY HUBER]: My information says you are to act as a statewide clearing house on information for the recycling and the waste reduction products. Do you find much interest in communities around the state for recycling? [CLAUDE SCHEELER]: "Oh, the interest is just outstanding. I've talked, statewide, to people who are starting recycling programs, not only on the city level, but in scout level, in youth groups level. And it's very gratifying to know that the public is willing to take the lead and then do something to stop the

wasteful filling of our solid waste landfills. [JAY HUBER]: What do you think should be on that list? [CLAUDE SCHEELER]: Well, anything that is utilized. Now we know that the aluminum is being pretty well taken care of, because there is money there, and that's, as I stated earlier, the economics tend to develop how fast the program will move. So aluminum isn't too big a concern. The plastic jugs are bulky, unless you treat them a certain way and clean them up, they are of concern. The tires are of concern. However, by action of Senate Bill 310 in the 1990 session legislature, there was an excise tax put on each new tire sold in the state of Kansas at 50 cents. So there is, uh, an amount of money that has been collected in the last- within the last year, to start making some grants and doing things that will determine that the tires can be handled and quit putting them in landfills.

But as of today, they cannot put them into the landfill. The landfills can still accept them, and there've been some counties that are accepting the tires, but there are also some counties that are trying to pay some people to come get them and recycle them. So, again, I still dwell on the tires, the plastic, and the compost at this stage. [JAY HUBER]: Some states have some recycling laws. For example, in Oregon, you put down a five cent deposit on a pop can. Do you think something like that would help our cause here? [CLAUDE SCHEELER]: Well, I attended a house committee hearing several weeks ago, on House Bill 2471. And the committee heard a number of pros and cons regarding that effect. I think, probably, you're going to see some action on it, but not at this session of the legislature. The Soft Drink Association and the beer wholesalers claim now that they're utilizing about 65 percent of recycled glass in the containers, and they're afraid that if you put a deposit on it, that will probably eliminate people bringing 'em in to them so they can recycle them, to be looking at it more from the money aspects of it. But I'm sure that there's going to be something passed in the 1992 session of the legislature."

[JAY HUBER]: And what do you think are the biggest hurdles that communities and the state face when coming up with and carrying out these recycling plans? [CLAUDE SCHEELER]: Well, probably the biggest hurdle is right here in this office and in our governing legislature. Because we do need to get some statutes enacted that will give us some authority to work with all these citizens who are formulated recycling groups, and to be able give grants to cities and counties, and maybe even some private enterprise, whereby we can go ahead and design and accept the material that can be recycled instead of putting it into solid waste landfill. [JAY HUBER]: Claude Scheeler is the statewide recycling coordinator. Chiquita Cornelius, with the Business and

Industries Recycling Program, says Kansans are good recyclers, but could use more local markets. [CHIQUITA CORNELIUS]: Well, unfortunately we're lacking in the direct markets, being located in the state of Kansas. Most of the materials that are collected throughout the state must either go through some kind of first-stage processing and then shipped on to the markets, or, in some instances, just go direct from the centers to the marketplace. [JAY HUBER]: What kinds, mainly, are there in our state? [CHIQUITA CORNELIUS]: We have some end uses in the area of paper, we have some cellulose insulation plants, and then we have another company that -- they're in Hutchinson -- that use some of the paper products to- or the paper collected to turn into an additional product. But for the most part, the-like glass... all must go to the glass plants that are outside the state. The bulk of that's going into Oklahoma. The aluminum cans all, of course, go to the

major aluminum companies, and those plants are outside of the state. [JAY HUBER]: As a member of the public, it would come to my mind, I would ask: 'Well, what pays right now to recycle? What's going prices for items such as aluminum? [CHIQUITA CORNELIUS]: The aluminum can, of course, is still the one that can generate the most revenue for programs, or for the centers, the for-profit centers for an individual. There's so-still, in some areas, the ability to pay a small amount for glass. Office papers, in particular high-grade papers like computer paper, and some of your other office papers, they'll have markets that can generate some kind of revenue for returning of material. But I think that the thing that I'm seeing the public realize, I think that we must continue to foster, is that the real reasons for recycling are not going to be the revenue generated from those materials. We're going to have to understand the

tremendous energy savings... savings of those natural resources for future generations. And continuing to keep those stabilized calls for disposal of our waste by reducing the amount that goes in these landfills, when in fact, all these materials can be re-used, and there's no point to fill up our landfills and in the future see higher costs to have to re-site or locate new landfills. [JAY HUBER]: Chiquita Cornelius is with the Business and Industries Recycling Program in Topeka. They publish a listing of recycling centers in Kansas. In Hutchinson, I'm Jay Huber. ***** [NANCY FINKEN]: Many rural hospitals in Kansas have an uphill climb. Attracting and maintaining physicians and other skilled medical personnel, justifying the purchase of high tech equipment, and making ends meet with a declining and aging population base are all parts of the reasons why rural hospitals must come up with creative strategies to keep

their doors open with quality care. With that in mind, seven rural hospitals have formed a nonprofit cooperative called Med-Op. Hospitals share their strengths and their needs in an attempt to keep costs down. Organized by Halstead Hospital, Med-Op charges a membership fee, right now set at $200 per month. And with that membership, Med-Op will attempt to fill the gaps rural hospitals face. The fee could go up or down, depending on how many hospitals are involved. Co-op members, in addition to Halstead Hospital, are Logan County Hospital in Oakley, Plainville Rural Hospital, Gove County Hospital at Quinter, Comanche County Hospital in Coldwater, Hodgeman County Health Center in Jetmore, and Spearville District Hospital. Larry Smith, Director of Staff Development at Halstead Hospital, says he's been working on forming the collaborative for a couple of years. Halstead, even though it's in a town of just under 2,000 people, doesn't have the same problems as other rural areas. Halstead has 35 specialty doctors and a 178-bed hospital. What it

needs, though, are people to fill those beds. [LARRY SMITH]: "We have to get referrals from the rural areas. Well, not-not necessarily from the r-rural areas but we need to get referrals from everywhere, and the rural areas are important to us. So we've always worked in those areas, trying to help the hospitals and the clinics as best as we can, in hopes of getting the referrals from them." [NANCY FINKEN]: Smith says Med-Op will address at least nine basic areas. [LARRY SMITH]: "Coordinated communications. Number 2 is physician recruitment, and number 3 is physician and staff retention services. In other words, 'if you got 'em, let's keep 'em'. [laughs] Docs and-and the professional staff. Management services. Now... Now also understand that a lot of these things will be shared resources. Doesn't mean that Hurst or Halstead are going to do all of this.

For the management services,we may find a nurse in Oakley, Kansas, that is capable of doing something that we-we can use her expertise. You see what I'm saying?" [NANCY FINKEN]: "Yes." [LARRY SMITH]: "Yeah, okay. Practice management... that's generally helping the clinics, the doctors and physicians' clinics. Management of their practice if they need help in those areas. Networker communications... and those already set up meetings and share ideas and so forth. Education resources, this is a pretty important- CME, which is Continued Medical Information, in-service needs. Right now, especially in the northwest area of the state, those people usually have to come clear back into Salina or well, Wichita, in order to get the education that they need. We hope - in fact, are setting- in the process now of setting up where we can go there. We can take some people out there and hold CMEs in in their local areas, which will save time and money and hopefully do the same thing. Shared resources, which we've talked about that just-

this will develop to the extent of each member's involvement. The services available in this area are limited, depending on how far and how fast they wanna go. [NANCY FINKEN]: So if someone in Oakley has services that someone in Spearville may need, then they can share between themselves? It doesn't have to be that you and Halstead are going to do all of this? [LARRY SMITH]: That's correct. No, we won't do it. We'll coordinate it, and because we probably have more resources than some of the other hospitals, we may... we may do some things that they can't do or can't afford to do. But no, it's a shared resource. We may find that we have good opportunities to... Maybe-maybe we have a...a tech, a radiology tech in Oakley, Kansas or Spearville, or Plainview- er, Plainville,

that can really hold some meetings for us throughout the state. You see what I'm saying? So we would use them." [NANCY FINKEN]: Smith says there's no guarantee or stipulation that member hospitals refer patients to Halstead for specialty care, but naturally, that's what Halstead is counting on. At Logan County Hospital, Administrator Rod Bates says they have 22 beds for acute care, 10 for skilled nursing, and some apartments for the elderly, in assisted and independent living. [ROD BATES]: "Some of our strengths are the fact that we're-we're now able to operate 5 different levels of care under one administration and one roof, and we know how to do that. We've done it for some period of time now. We have other different types of programs - 'Meals on Wheels', we run a transportation service out of a hospital... We have a social services office, which provides several areas, which are not normally found in the very small hospitals. Those are some of our strengths. Some of our needs are physician recruitment; we need more physicians. We can use some specialized services and we could certainly use help with purchasing - simply because of our size; we can't purchase in-in quantities." [NANCY FINKEN]: Bates said Logan County Hospital joined the cooperative for economic reasons. [ROD BATES]: We're not facing closing immediately, but we are, as most all rural hospitals are, very concerned about the future. With the declining population base in western

Kansas, with the what I feel is very unfair practices, paying rural hospitals, and particularly rural hospitals in the Midwest, less to take care of Medicare patients than other hospitals in other parts of the country. We're at a great disadvantage. [NANCY FINKEN]: Rod Bates is the administrator of Logan County Hospital, a member of the Med-Op cooperative. Gary Tiller is the hospital administrator for both Spearville and Jetmore. He says they hope to save money in the cooperative. [GARY TILLER]: "Well, for one thing in western Kansas, we have a difficult time getting educational programs locally for our professional employees. Through this kind of a situation, we can utilize the resources of all the hospitals, and many times the expertise in those hospitals to provide some of these education programs more locally. Thereby saving a lot of expense for the hospitals to send people, typically to Salina or Hutch or somewhere, to-to gain

the required educational activities that they need to have to maintain a license. Another example would be to- sharing of the cost of certain supplies. Many times we're required to buy a case of something and we wouldn't use a case of something in two years. But if we can share a half a case with another hospital in the co-op, then it certainly reduces the risk we have of supplies and drugs and things like that outdating, and obviously raising the expense for a lot of us. [NANCY FINKEN]: Tiller says he hopes more and more rural hospitals in Kansas will join the cooperative. He anticipates northwest Kansas will soon be be joining. [GARY TILLER]: We'll look at it in a year. As a cooperative, obviously people put their money in and the-their money stays there except for what the-y'know, expenses we incur in the running of the co-op. It'll be very difficult to tell in the interim. We can-we can quote several things anecdotally that we have been able to show savings on for various items in several hospitals. But the proof in the pudding comes at the end of the year, when you-when you look at the bottom line and see if there's any kind of actual dollar return to the hospital, on top of the savings that they've had. And each hospital will have to judge for itself, at that time, as to whether or not it's worth its time to-to remain a member."

[NANCY FINKEN]: Gary Tiller is the Hospital Administrator for Spearville and Jetmore Hospital. Seven rural Kansas hospitals have joined the cooperative, in order to help keep costs down and revenues higher. It's coordinated by Halstead Hospital. The name of the non-profit co-op is called MedOp. In Hutchinson, I'm Nancy Finken. ***** [CHIP WHEELAN]: Well, we did have a negative experience after the first cap was imposed by the legislature in 1986. What happened was, we had 2 different Supreme Court decisions, one which said you can't single out healthcare providers, like physicians and hospitals, and treat them differently under the tort laws. Nor can you cap awards in

Kansas. Now that was surprisingly turned around by a subsequent decision that was much later. That did cause some confusion in the meantime and even resulted in a campaign to amend the Kansas constitution, which was then- then became unnecessary, because the court basically reversed its attitude on the question of caps and upheld a 1987 law as well as a 1988 amendment. And so 1988 is the year when Kansas enacted its constitutionally recognized cap on non-economic damages. [NANCY FINKEN]: When we talk about putting caps on damages, the obvious thing that some people say is it will keep malpractice rates for physicians from going up, it will help them predict better how much to figure for lawsuits. And do you think that by President

Bush's initiative, if states go along with it, that we will see any further, long-term limits or stabilization of malpractice rates, if it becomes more widespread? [CHIP WHEELAN]: I would certainly say so. Of course, in Kansas, we've had very favorable experience subsequent to the enactment of the tort reforms in 1988. And many other states have had a similar experience, but the $250,000 cap on non-economic damages is usually at the cornerstone of a package of tort reforms. But please keep in mind that the Bush proposal does include a number of other very meritorious tort reforms that can be- I think you could argue that some of the others are just as effective as a $250,000 cap on non-economic damages. A good example is the collateral source offset, which basically says that, if I have enjoyed the benefits of

commercial insurance to cover my surgery or other medical care that resulted from, or became necessary as a result of injuries as a result of someone else's negligence, then there's an offset for that. In other words, I cannot be paid cash for something that my insurance company has already paid for. Now that can have substantial impact on the losses experienced by companies that insure people for their their liability exposure. Another thing that we favor that has not yet been enacted in Kansas is a system of periodic payments of future damages. And what that means essentially is that if, for example, I was awarded $250,000 for pain and suffering experienced, and this is, you know, in addition to my actual damages, the court could order that, based upon my age, that those payments be paid to me in installments

over the next 20 or 25 years, perhaps. And what that means is that the liability insurer can take exceptionally less money than the amount awarded in damages and purchase an annuity. The annuity then pays the plaintiff, the injured person, over that longer period of time but at a substantial savings to the liability insurer. So there's some genuine benefit to be derived, in terms of avoiding lawsuits to insurers, who would then convert that to higher premiums otherwise. [NANCY FINKEN]: Those last two points that you brought up, avoiding so-called 'double payment', and then this last one, encouraging awards to be given over a period of time. Are both outlined in the Bush plan? [CHIP WHEELAN]: Yes. [NANCY FINKEN]: The idea of encouraging the change in payment process - has that been discussed in Kansas at length?" [CHIP WHEELAN]: Yes, indeed.

It was part of our package of proposals to the 1988 legislature, and it was the one feature of that package that was not enacted. What happened is there were drastically different house and senate versions of what we call 'Periodic Payments Bill'. And when that went to conference committee, they got into something that is extremely complex, and never could reach agreement on all the technical details. So that's something that, that we would encourage in Kansas. But you know, when we've had such favorable experience, as result of those things we have done, and I need to emphasize that the legislature deserves the credit, although the medical treatment society did play an active role. But, what they have done for us is, in addition to the tort reforms, they've allowed us to start our own, physician-owned mutual insurance company, and they've also changed some the laws governing the amount of insurance that physicians must carry. And when you combine those factors with the

tort reforms, and look at a 25 percent reduction in -- average reduction, I should emphasize -- in premium costs to healthcare providers, followed by a period of very favorable stability, it's kind of hard to get people excited about another tort reform. And so I think that's the only reason that we've not actively pursued structured payments. It's simply, you know, in clinical terms, it's kind of hard to go to the trough too many times. [NANCY FINKEN]: But when we look at a federally sponsored program or one that the president has outlined, it does take some of the pressure off the state groups. [CHIP WHEELAN]: Well, I think what would happen is the president's proposal, if enacted by Congress, would then require Kansas to actively pursue a structured payment system, which we would certainly endorse, and in fact, we could offer a couple of bill drafts for consideration right away. So we would encourage that. I think the bigger question, though, is whether or not the

federal government should be imposing requirements on states as to governance over the states' tort systems. And that brings us to a really different level of controversy, because it's real easy to see the benefit of tort reform. Both in terms of loss avoidance by the insurance industry, which converts to stable or lower premiums for the purchasers of liability insurance, with the fact that, that you know, combined in that context, the fact that physicians frequently practice what is called 'defensive medicine'. In other words, they run a lot of unnecessary tests, and I hate to say it so bluntly, but just to protect themselves from the very distinct possibility of being held liable for not running the test. So by enacting tort reforms, he addressed both the problem of defensive

medicine, running up unnecessary costs to the consumer of health insurance or health care services that combined with lower premiums for physicians and other healthcare providers. And there's a lot of merit to that. And very few people would argue for very long against that. Yet a lot of people would argue that tort laws have been the common law domain of the individual states for as long as we've been a United States of America, and that it has always been considered inappropriate for the federal government to pass laws that would then intrude upon the states' tort system domain. [NANCY FINKEN]: Chip Wheelan, Director of Public Affairs for the Kansas Medical Society. President Bush will send his malpractice plan to Congress this week. The initiative includes some tort reform already in place in Kansas, such as a maximum limit of $250,000 on non-economic damage

awards, and the elimination of a rule under which patients can sometimes collect twice: once from their own insurance and once from their liable healthcare provider. In Hutchinson, I'm Nancy Finken. ***** [NANCY FINKEN]: The Soviets want American grain. U.S. farmers, including Kansas wheat producers, want and need a market. But it's not that simple. The 1990 Farm Bill requires export grain credits be given only when countries have the ability to repay the debt. The Soviet Union may not be a good risk for the $1.5 billion credit they're asking for. President Bush has been reluctant to ok the credits, but Congress is pushing hard. Senator Bob Dole says it's true, the credits to the Soviets could be risky, but it's a very complex issue. He says it almost boils down to foreign policy, rather than ag policy. [BOB DOLE]: I think we have more than enough votes to pass. The resolution that we've been working with Republicans and Democrats, there's a lot of foreign policy involved in this. Many people say, "Why

don't you just go ahead and give some word- give the administration some cover on the export credit guarantees?" But it's fairly difficult, because many of us feel that we need to emphasize our differences with the central government, the Soviet Union, with reference to the politics. And we also want to continue to put pressure on Gorbachev and other central government leaders, and we would like to have more exchange and more trade and more aid, but directly with republics in the Soviet Union. So I think we've got most everything worked out. We hope to take it up now, Tuesday afternoon. And we believe this will give the president, who I think wants to be helpful, and Secretary Mattis, who I know wants to be helpful, some cover of- and in fact- in the face of a 1990 provision which said that, that we can't extend credit unless they meet certain credit-worthy goals. So we believe we've

got it worked out, we hope so. We'd like to get a big vote; we'll find out next Tuesday. [NANCY FINKEN]: Between now and next Tuesday, Senator Dole says there has to be evidence being brought up that says the Soviets can repay their debt. [BOB DOLE]: Well, that's the big $64 question. That's the one that's got the president in a box, because the law says, unless they can pay it back, you don't extend the credit guarantee. And if you- you make your best judgment, I suppose you wouldn't be violating the law, but that's why they would like us to spell out, in this resolution, precisely what we mean by, you know, what standards you look. You look at the payments and past business transactions the Soviets have already paid back. You look at their assets, how much total they have on hand. You look at the impact. If we don't do it, no other countries do. So we believe that what they'd like to have is $1.5 billion in credit guarantees. I doubt they'll get that much. But if they got that much, and they bought 4 million tonnes of wheat, it could have a market impact of 20 or

25 cents a bushel. And keep in mind that if, if in fact we did - say we went the full amount, $1.5 billion in credit guarantees, and they paid back the money, and we did get this much of a market bump, a market increase, it would save about $800 million in deficiency payments. You'd include not only wheat, but corn and any other commodity covered by deficiency payments. So you'd have a, a big savings to the government if all this worked out as we hope it would work out, where the Soviets get the credit, they repay the credit, market price goes up. That means deficiency payments are smaller, the U.S. taxpayers save $800 million. And we also eliminate this big burden on the market by shipping a lot of corn and grain and maybe other commodities to the Soviet Union. [NANCY FINKEN]: Senator Dole says their history with repayment of the United States grain credits is good. [BOB DOLE]: Repayment rate has been perfect. I mean, they've always repaid. They've got an - there's an interest payment due in July of $31 million for the last

million dollar in credit guarantees, so we'll find out what happens then. But what we've tried to do is set forth in our resolution, the ability they have to service the current debt, and we're gonna look at, "Are they paying off other governments?" Somebody tells us they're not paying off a railroad loan in Finland or something, we're checking that out. Their repayment performance on previous debt, that's been very good. Their national assets, what- how much gold do they have, what other assets do they have, market retention, including an assessment of whether the absence of U.S. credit guarantees would jeopardize important foreign markets as far as the Soviets were concerned and we're concerned. So we're trying to sort of spell out what we didn't do in the 1990 Farm Bill, what the administration should look for in making their judgment. And then we, we say if they meet these criteria, we ought to go ahead and approve the sale. [NANCY FINKEN]: Senator Dole says the resolution to be considered next week

is non-binding. It doesn't change the law of the 1990 Farm Bill, but it would give the administration a clarification on Congress's intent pertaining to grain credits. Dole says, again, it's as much to help U.S. ag economy as it is to help foreign relations. [BOB DOLE]: If we don't do this, let's say we turn this down and say no to the Russians, and the Soviets and Gorbachev in particular. They've been very helpful in the Gulf Crisis. This weekend, for the first time, the foreign minister of Russia, Bessmertnykh, is visiting in Israel. First time since Israel's been in existence, they've had a Russian foreign minister. They're willing to help us in the peace process, so we don't want to kick them in the teeth. And I think that's the- that's one thing, even though the Baltic states, we've had the Baltic leaders in town, I met with them, it's fine for them to come in and say 'we shouldn't do this, we shouldn't do this'. But even they don't want Gorbachev to fail at this point. So we've got to be reasonable, and it's not- so if what we've got here is a resolution, it's because it's probably more a foreign policy than ag policy.

[NANCY FINKEN]: Senator Bob Dole talking to Kansas journalists about the big issue of $1.5 billion in grain credits to the Soviets. Senator Dole says Congress will take up the issue next Tuesday, with the Senate looking at a regular [inaudible], would encourage the Bush administration to give the Soviets the guaranteed credits. The Soviet Union, if those credits are granted, is sure to get a lot of Kansas wheat. In Hutchinson, I'm Nancy Finken. ***** [CAROL WILLIAMS]: Unlike most bills they pass in legislature which can appear on 1 to 2 sides of paper, this bill ended up being 57 pages long, so this is more like a book rather than a bill. And there are just - I can't remember exactly how many sections there were, I think there were 64 sections to the bill. And every one of those sections has some kind of a change that would affect the way this agency operates, or those people who are under the jurisdiction of either the Campaign Finance Act, the lobbying laws, or the conflict of interest statutes. If you want to know what I consider to be the most important parts, the number one most

important portion of this bill, I think, would be investigative subpoena power, which, after years and years of requesting the legislature to allow this agency to have a subpoena power that was during its investigative stage, this year, that actually happened in the legislature. So as far as this commission goes, the most important thing in the bill to it is the fact that the agency now has investigative subpoena power. [NANCY FINKEN]: Tell me about the number of members of the commission. Sometimes we hear about being understaffed for the duties that they're charged with. Is there any hope that this will help grow the numbers in the commission? [CAROL LEHMAN]: Well, there are six commission members and such, they had nine members of the commission that we as a staff answer to. And there's quite a few changes, even in their eligibility departments, and those are not necessarily good. But we are allowed, at the present time, to have a staff of six, and we are understaffed. With all the work that we have to do, and we are mandated to do, there's just no way we can do an adequate job with six staff members. What does happen with this bill is allows this agency, for the first time, to become a C-fund agency. We have been, since 1974, funded entirely through the state's general fund. And this bill would enable the commission to require political action committees to pay a registration fee once a year, it would require lobbyists to pay a registration fee once a year, and it would require candidates who run for statewide legislative county, first-class city races to make a registration fee each time they file for office. The potential here would generate a minimum, in a

non-election year, of around $46,000 to a maximum $130,000 in a year where there's an election of the majority of these people running for office. So with that C-fund being set up, the potential there is for more staffing for the agency. That is on the assumption that the legislature allows us to be additional fees for the agency and doesn't just go in and touch on state-general fund appropriations by the exact amount that we're getting in the cities. But I mean, I am hopeful that we will be allowed to be paid some of these dollars we get in fees to enhance the programs the commission administers, to do more informational, educational-type work with the public, as well as those under the jurisdiction of the agency, and to allow us to computerize more so we can do more statistical analysis with the data we collect, and also to allow us to have more staff so that we can carry out our mandates in a more timely and appropriate fashion. So the money is really necessary, and also one of the big important

expenditures we'll be accruing next year is we will, for the first time ever, be bringing all of the people who run for elective county office under the jurisdiction of the Campaign Finance Act in the 1992 election. Which means, within the state of Kansas, that will be at least another 2,600 people who are going to have to abide by the laws. And these people, currently, are not even aware of our agency or what these laws are. So our main goal in 1992 is to educate them. So a lot of funding is going to go in making publications available to them. So that's mailing that to them, going out and visiting with them, doing a seminar-type setting to help educate them on the laws and some of the do's and don'ts, so that they don't inadvertently violate the laws because they aren't aware of what the new requirements are. So it really- the funding, I think, in 1992 is going to be to help educate all of these new people that are brought underneath the

Campaign Finance Act. [NANCY FINKEN]: You mentioned earlier that some of the requirements for the commissioners, that their eligibility requirements have changed. How will they change if this bill is enacted? [CAROL WILLIAMS]: The senate placed some very restrictive eligibility requirements on commission members. It was that body's feeling that, if a individual has ever in their life served in a capacity of the chairman, vice-chairman, or treasurer for any county-central committee, which is a party committee that exists in all of the counties or the state party or a district committee, that they would never be able to serve on the commission. They also placed restrictions that, if you've ever been a candidate for any partisan office in the state of Kansas, you cannot serve on the commission for 5 years. Nor can you, while you're on the commission, ever endorse a candidate, nor can you ever solicit funds for a candidate. They're also make-placed restrictions on people serving on the commission who fall for any reason under the purview of any of the acts that are administered by this agency. What that does is eliminate five of our current commissioners because Congressman - former Congressman "Lewman?" 27 years ago served as the, I think, Chairman of the 4th Congressional District. By virtue of that, he would not be able to serve on this commission. We had a commission meeting yesterday, and the commissioners thought that these requirements were too stringent. They certainly had no problem with maybe a

5-year cooling off period. But their concern was to say that you could not serve if you had, at any time in your life, been in one of these offices. They thought it was going a bit far. That does mean we lose 5 commissioners. The concern also is that there is nothing really wrong with having an individual serve on this body who has a basic working knowledge or understanding of government. They don't see that that's wrong. In fact, they were even concerned yesterday that, if you were to bring in individuals who have no knowledge whatsoever of the political process or government, that their understanding of what the requirements would be to serve on this commission and keep trying to deal with the kinds of issues that we deal with, that might be, y'know, to their detriment." [NANCY FINKEN]: But certainly you can understand a system without having been a candidate? [CAROL WILLIAMS]: "Yes. Absolutely right, absolutely right. And all I am saying is if you've listened to some of the opinions that they had yesterday. The only concern I have here within the agency is that they made some strict eligibility requirements last year when they instituted this new nine-member commission. It took several other appointees going through - 17 or 18 people that they were trying to put on here, before they could finally find somebody qualified. And then this year to add these further restrictions. My fear is that, when

July 1 rolls around, if the governor signs this bill, we have less than four members who can serve on the commission. We cannot even have a meeting unless we have a quorum of five. Then when we have five present, all five must vote unanimously. I could see us potentially not being able to meet as a body for several months because the appointment authority will not be able to find people who are qualified to serve. Of course, to me, that's a concern because we have ongoing audits ongoing... different things that we're working with that we do need to make and then send an approval for that are going to have to come to a standstill, until such time as we have a commission that is at least numbering five or more so that we can meet each month. [NANCY FINKEN]: So, is that enough reason to encourage Mrs. Finney to veto? [CAROL WILLIAMS]: No, no. I do not think so. I mean, if we have to put things on hold, then we put things on hold. I definitely think, with as much work that went into this bill as did occur this year, and both committees worked diligently, especially the House. They spent 11 weeks working on this bill. And when you consider that the select commission on ethics that was established last summer spent over 90 hours working on the basic premise for the- which this bill is based, I definitely think that is something that we can find. The good provisions in the bill certainly outweigh those that may have problems

now or in the, the future. [NANCY FINKEN]: Carol Williams is the Executive Director of the Kansas Public Disclosure Commission, talking about how her agency could be affected by an ethics bill Governor Finney may sign this week. In Hutchinson, I'm Nancy Finken. ***** [MALE SPEAKER]: It's the staffing patterns, and the number of staff. ***** [NANCY FINKEN]: Villarizza Winery, the brainchild of Dr. Rizza, is hanging in the balance, of sorts, as a public offering has begun. About $2.5 million in units of limited partnership interest is being sold to finance the building of the commercial winery. The

winery would handle the entire process of making wine from grapes - everything from fermentation to bottling. A restaurant and vineyard would also be on site. Patrons could taste the wine, tour the winery, and have, dinner all right there. The stock is being offered to Kansans only through about May 15. State law now allows commercial wineries, where wine can be tasted on site, sold to wholesalers and to retailers, as well as directly to customers. The only glitch for the Rizzas is that the winery has to be located in a county where liquor by the drink is allowed. Halstead and Harvey County is dry, so Rizza has chosen Reno County, specifically near the intersection of K-96 and K-17 in south Hutchinson to locate the winery. Dr. Rizza and his wife grew up in Savannah, Georgia, and after 9 years as a Navy doctor, and 11 years at the Halstead Clinic, Dr. Rizza opened his own family practice on the outskirts of Halstead. The field surrounding the Rizza home and office don't contain fields of wheat or any other familiar sight to Kansans; instead, there are

grapevines. [ROBERT RIZZA]: We had this 40 acres of land, and we did the usual things that you do with land in Kansas. And we realize that that was really not very profitable. We looked for alternative crops, even turned to raising brome grass specifically for the seed. And the first year we did that, it was fantastic. We had the seed company come in, strip the seed off the brome, we got a very good price for it, and then what was left we cut and baled for hay and we did alright. The second year we had another fantastic crop; it was beautiful, beautiful crop of brome. Called the seed company, they had no demand for brome seed in that year, they didn't want to buy it at all. So we cut it for hay and we sold it, paid taxes on the land and fertilized it, et cetera, et cetera. And that year, on the 40 acres we showed a profit of $200. So we decided it was time to look for other things.

Now, being from the South we thought about like pecan trees, but our soil here in this area is a little bit too tight for that. So we kept looking, and then one day we came up with a bright idea of grapes. And so we turned to the books and started doing some reading. And we were astounded to find the history had a- Kansas had a fantastic history of grape growing. [NANCY FINKEN]: It may seem amazing to think of grapes growing in Kansas, when one usually associates vineyards with Europe and California. But Rizza says Kansas has what it takes to grow grapes, at least if the vineyard manager has done his homework. [ROBERT RIZZA]: Grapes are intertwined with the history of man. Just about as far back as there's recorded history of man, there's history of grapes and wine. And the grapevine is a absolutely remarkable plant. My feeling has always been that grapevine has

two main drives: one is to grow and survive, and two is to produce grapes. Now the only absolute pre-requisite to growing grapes is that the soil must have drainage. They do not, as the term is used, they do not like 'wet feet'. So if you have a hard pan in the soil, 6, 8 feet down, that will trap and hold water, they will not do well. You have to have good surface drainage, horizontal drainage, and you have to have good vertical percolation of water through the soil. Other than that, you can grow grapes in any kind of land. You can grow grapes profitably on land that is too poor to grow anything else. And that's why, like in Europe, grapes are often grown

on hillsides. [NANCY FINKEN]: It takes a patient person to grow grapes. The first 2 to 3 years, the grapes must be cut off the vine. Ideally, a vine should be at least 6 years old before a harvest is done, and that builds a strong plant that will give grapes for 50 to 75 years. Rizza says the first grapes he planted were in 1978 and have been mature now since 1984. The second planting was in 1982, and again he planted more 4 years later. Almost all of the 14 acres have mature vines now. Rizza says, from the studying they had done, he was confident those first 3 acres would do well and grow, but he didn't expect to wind up with 14 acres. [ROBERT RIZZA]: Not long after we got involved with the vineyard, we realized that, in order for this state to have a viable grape industry, there had to be a marketplace. And that essentially the only viable marketplace with grapes grown in

Kansas would have to be wineries. [NANCY FINKEN]: So, what to do with millions and millions of grapes and no market? Well, Rizza says he hopes that changes soon because now, [ROBERT RIZZA]: We just sit here and look at them wither on the vine and almost cry. [laughs] Because a well-run vineyard will produce anywhere from 4 to 5 tons of grapes per acre. And in this part of the country, the average price at a winery for grapes is about $300 a ton. So at 4 to 5 tonnes, you're looking at a gross income of $1200 to $1500 an acre for grapes. It beats wheat. [NANCY FINKEN]: Rizza sees grapes as an alternative crop for Kansas farmers. But like any crop, though, farmers will need a place to sell the crop. [ROBERT RIZZA]: If we can get some wineries going in Kansas, then we'll have a

marketplace, and this is one of the things that we hope to do. And that is, when we get the winery up and running, we will be looking for people to grow grapes for us. I envision... I envision a whole process. The possibility of what can happen, and that is if we can put our winery in, it's like taking a pond and dropping a pebble in it. And you create a ripple that goes around, where the stone impacted the water. And around that winery, we will get hopefully a circle of grape growers. It is then my hope after a few years, one or more of these grape growers on the periphery will have enough adventure in his heart that he will say, 'why should I grow grapes and sell them to that winery,

when I can take my grapes and make wine and sell it?' And if we can do that, then we drop another pebble in the pond. And we get ripples around it, and subsequently we get ripples around another pebble, until finally, maybe we can cover the state with ripples and have grape growing taking place all over the state. My ultimate aim -- whether it would ever happen in my lifetime or not makes no difference -- but my ultimate aim is to get us back in the future to where we were in the past. And if we can go back having 9,000 acres of vineyards in this state, and produce a quarter of a million gallons of wine, I would be very content. [NANCY FINKEN]: 90 percent of the wine in the United States is made in California, but Rizza says Kansas is losing money because he believes Kansans would support Kansas products. That's not to say Villarizza will be able to compete with Gallo,

but a small chunk of that California wine market, he says, could be shared with Kansas. Rizza hopes to be making wine this August, or at least by next summer. In Hutchinson, I'm... [AUDIO CUTS OUT]