Spectrum Hawaii; Scenes from Sandalwood Mountains; Interview with John Dominis Holt

The following program is a production of HGT in Honolulu Hawaii Public Television. The following program is made possible by grants from the state foundation on culture and the arts and Chevron USA in Hawaii. At. Least. Two. Hundred years ago with abundant sandalwood this fragrant Tembo was traded to the Chinese helping to open up trade relations between China and Hawaii. Today Chinese children nostalgically kahawai eat the salmon with now. Prominent in the center. It is Chinatown. The.

Sights. And sounds are culturally unique. Many aspects of Chinese tradition however are not as conspicuous. Douglas Chong of the Hawaii Chinese History Center. Divides us with a view into this fascinating and colorful culture. The first Chinese came to Hawaii probably around 1789. The majority of them came as single cabin boys boys working on the ships in the waiting ships and jumped ship made away their home. Then around the 1820s there were some Chinese who began experimenting with sugar because the area that they came from a song was very native to sugar. Wasn't until the 1850s that the sugar plantations really began it and 15 years many of the Chinese that came as single laborers worked in these plantations and eventually moved off went back to China went on to the west coast then around the 1870s. There was

another generation of powerful Cantonese people beginning with China who came in the 1850s on one of the ships. He eventually married into royalty became an advisor to one of the Hawaiian kings and brought brought out his own plantation. He went back to China to an area and recruited hundreds and hundreds of sun laborers who came into Hawaii to work on the different plantations. Many of them got off of the plantations after their period of contract and went into cultivation of rice. At that time much of the land that was not in sugar was in Cairo and much of the land was stolen swamp Chinese went into the swamp areas and drained and started to cultivate the Jolson area is made up of nine different Duzer some areas and this district is located right across the river

from Hong Kong. Above all call around 60 to 70 percent of the Chinese come from the Joels own district. The. Family structure as it is today in Hawaii. Is really an offshoot of the ancient Chinese family which really define the role. Of the press of the nation to the. Letter that was brought over and teach in. China than before. And throughout. The whole generation. China. Always. Got in. Families just for. The most important. Area. And. Social. Customs connected with. Family. Practice. Still going to be quite a bit of religious practices while practicing remembering one's ancestors numbering them and then welcoming guy.

Or pay respects to a young baby. All of this is part of the family structure. So the festivals and the customs all tied back to the values of piety love and respect for one's elders and parents religion plays a meaningful role in supporting and sustaining family bonds. Dwayne pang a taoist master tells us how the Chinese approach their religions the religious practices in Hawaii practiced by the Chinese community falls mainly onto Taoism the national religion of China. What you see now in Hawaii is usually practiced mainly by the elderly Chinese and the recent immigrants. Also Chinese Buddhism was introduced into Hawaii about a quarter of a century already and the younger generations tend to believe more of the Christian religion mainly because of their lack of knowledge of language and culture and traditions.

But in the household you see all three practices of each religion be done together in harmony and understanding. This is the walk on the temple founded about 60 years ago by the god society which is a society which has actors and musicians enshrined in the altar's walk on the patron deity while Kong is the patron saint of the Chinese actors and musicians and also to protect our children. We also shine on the altar is Bob the treasure of heaven. A lot of people faithful. Well Andy you want to be more I practice in alchemy and was noted for his Chinese medicine. This temple is structured in the old Hawaii style of a house it's upstairs and trying to alter the temple and the society hall and downstairs where members can live freely and get assistance. The ritual that will be performed today is called and giving Thanksgiving for the end of the Chinese year because of a Taoist ritual called Sing by the soul which

invokes the Pollstar. This ritual dates back to antiquity of about 2000 years where they have a bushel with rice and a scissors. Like. A ruler and a. Chinese measure. It weighs man's goodness and badness. And what we're doing today is pray for the forgiveness of our sins. Master will bless. This Taoist ritual consist of offering up incense and Boki the spirits. All were reading the documents telling up today's event and purpose. After that then we will bring down in meditation a ritual dance the seven stars the be dipper to grant us blessings and bestow us whatever wishes or desires you have. And after that they will be offering libations of the tea and whiskey and which the community or the temple has prepared. The conclusion of this ritual Today will consist of the sacrificing or

burning of sacrificial paper offerings which are in the form of a Chinese imperial robe. Boots and hats which we believe that the beauties of nature will be able to have a new set of clothing for the years to come. This will all be done outside of the rate at which the cultivation of the church will be off. We do become a taoist master in tales years of training and education. A similar type of perseverance is required to become a good calligrapher. Tom has been practicing calligraphy for years. The time. I. Have started reading. While writing some 5000 years ago. Is. A means of communication. And. Line up. To begin with the times. Carders. Tauriel. The signs of practicer. Many.

Thousand years ago. I was. On. The first card the means dragon. And the second one is flying. It means that. We look for it to be as active as a flying dragon. Chinese calligraphy. Was. A means of communication throughout the centuries. Although we had different dialects in different provinces. The current is. The same and is written the same way today. They are course silos of Chinese. In practice. The first one this time is five. The second one is a little in some way. And then the. Third group is the walking. Type of calligraphy and the last one is the wire which is used

or soothed and taught. The Chinese Su has been used primarily as a instrument of authentification of documents. It continues to be used to be in. China and Japan. They. Needed. To cash a check. You cannot be for. Today. Soooo engraving is also an art form. Which encompasses 4000 years of history. It's considered the highest form of art in China surpassing calligraphy. Stephen kau also a calligrapher. Is four. Thousand year old steel engraving. By teaching cell. Composition takes up the most time. This is where art. Engraving itself is mean. It. Can be done in a few hours. You have a good composition. One must have balance of yin and

yang. Which is substantiality and emptiness. Those characters must stand upright and most importantly the spirit must set right and floor. Seals were originally made out of metal. Today to. Read. Soapstone. All. The. Qualities as soon as it was all knowledge of Chinese characters. Secondly one must never call mind. Posture. And proper breathing. Thirty one must have a sense of continuity with the past. When I'm in grave. With this totally sound body or. My ego. Disappears. And. Some kind of. Creative spirit. Which moves my head. I think is important for me to spread this or. To show people that there is something bigger than just your ordinary daily life and can be found in ordinary things in a stone. But. In Chinese culture for myself and for the people

who study Chinese culture. It gives them an opportunity. To be one with nature. Fine Art in ordinary things. For this it offers much more. United Chinese press is the only Chinese language paper published in Hawaii. It began operations more than 30 years ago and is presently located in one of the most Chinese cultural Plaza. I of course. So I assume there are three staffs involved in publishing this paper. First I see a news item from local flooring sources. Then I rewrite it to translate them before editing. Next I send the edited copies to Mr. Harding. Who says that I. Finally play to send to. Mr Shit who prints the paper.

The United Chinese press functions primarily as an information source. Important news from the state and local government agencies should be known by our citizens. However. Such information is in English. Therefore this Chinese language newspaper is essential for those Chinese immigrants who are not fluent in English. Our newspaper also performs a great service for the Chinese themselves. Overseas Chinese speak various dialects because they came from different regions in China. So where a group of Chinese are together although they may not understand one another through speech they may not read the same written form and understand it. Chinese music dates back to 3000 B.C.. Today

it is performed at Folk Festival with. Religious ceremonies. And theatrical production. A favorite style of music among the Chinese in Hawaii is Cantonese Opera. Here performed by the rowlocks music. This will shoeman call Yang chin. It was foreign Hoppe's call. In Chinese to call it. I hope this will stick back for coupal sixteenth century. I will pay this woman. About 40 years. This is childish to string while you call a fool. I have been playing these

40 years. This is a Chinese food court. Wanna see you. Nice. What's the deal. It is 2000 years old but I've been doing this for 16 years. This is Mandarin. Chinese new school club. Now. We like to play a small part of some. Celestial images is. A contemporary dance company.

That participates in the Department of Education's. School's program. Donna Ching dying as the company's founder and director. Began dancing when I was very young. And. I always enjoyed things change. As I grew older. I began to feel that. Dance was a part of my whole life and I let go of it. It was night. Time. Is. A part of my life. And so I went back just. To learn more about my art. I read the different aspects of my Chinese heritage. So. My Masters of Fine Arts degree. I decided to a Chinese cultures. Originally I started on the Phoenix dance. And as I did my research I realized there were. Four great mythical creatures of the Chinese haven't. And. It was very. Exciting

to study this and to you know many. Animals. That are very much. In China and. Also were. Going to people. In. Different cultures. So as I started monkeys more. Chinese have and. I found that I needed a story line to tie everything together. And that's how the. King came. Through the Monkey King. Actually brought. You right into. My down. Needed. Story. Altogether. This. Tale starts with monkey tumbling into. And. From an ancient fear of the time. Monkey brings to life supernatural creatures. The Chinese had been. The first one is a dragon that comes to life. And his. EMPEROR. And their son is the.

Key. And. Everyone. Is the unicorn. Brings good. Man. Long. Life happiness. And the last is the tortoise. Longevity in. Contemporary Dance uses many techniques from the past. The lion dance is a martial art form that is inspired by a centuries old technique time in the development of go for can be traced back to about 3000 or 4000 years in China. The basic philosophy behind it is that internal and external internal is to develop one's inner strength or CI and

external is of development of using the. Line dancing with a golf club requires a student to practice at least three years a basic minimum. But the basic foundation for the strength and ability to do the London. Dancing can be traced back of all this. Two hundred sixteen hundred years but the pong dynasty in Honolulu history of about 100 years records.

Line dancing. There are two types of line dancing one is called goes sings see or the awakened line which goes from club play and what one is called A C C or D auspicious line which temple played and the blind represents the spirit and the capability of expelling all evil influence in the brain. Good luck. So we usually perform it at weddings and birthdays and the celebrations where we we're sharing a happy occasion. The lion dance is an integral part of Chinese celebrations because it brings good luck and chases away evil spirits. Toyland Chang author of a book on Chinese festivals talks about the significance of festivals among the Chinese. There are many festivals celebrated by the Chinese. Why. Because it's a part of their heritage. It's a time for the families to get together. The Chinese love to celebrate Chinese love to get together and they love to eat good food and

to remember their ancestors and give thanks for the nice things that had happened during the year. A very popular event is the Autumn Moon Festival. Celebrated on the 15th of the eighth. Month. Traditionally. Families and friends gather to admire them. While drinking tea. And. Cake. This is a moon cake. It has around shaped like the moon. And it's very popular among the Chinese people as well as other ethnic groups. People have learned to like this news in Hawaii. This cake is made all year round. But. During the Moon Festival they meet them with. Various fillings within the cake. There is an egg yolk. They. Are easy. And. Bright. And when. The cake is cut. It shows a round egg yolk. It. Looks like the moon. The most important festival in Hawaii is a Chinese New Year's

celebration. It's important because it heralds the coming of spring. It's not like Christmas which comes in the dead of winter but Chinese New Year is the beginning of a new. Period. Among the traditions associated with Chinese New Year is the cultivation of Narcissus flowers. And Locke is in Chinatown to buy narcissus bulbs that have been imported from China. All that come from food can. Produce the best flowers they have the best scent and beautiful color and they have a better fragrance than the ones that are imported from the mainland. And they say that the helps that come from fear can last longer than the bulbs that come from the building. The timing element is important because the Chinese believe that if it's blooming before a couple of days before Chinese New Year it's very good luck. And if it blooms on New Year's Eve that's even better. Two ways of cultivating

Narcissus. One way is to set the. Bulb itself in a bowl and. Brace it with rocks. And this method is the straight method and the other way is to carve half of the ball and then your shoots will be seen. This is called the Crab style. Rather plays a major role in cultivating Narcissus flowers. It needs a lot of sun. And here in Hawaii we have very good weather. And it takes. 21 to 20 days for cultivating this fall. And with more sun the blossoms seem to be stronger. The Chinese in Hawaii cultivate narcissist because it's a symbol of good luck. There's a story of a man who found some flowers by the riverside and he sold them and

he made a fortune. And I myself cultivate Narcissus. Because. My mom did it way back when she was alive. And I think that the tradition should be the five. An important part in the Chinese New Year celebration is extending greetings to your friends. These are all extending good wishes. During New Years. Children look forward to receiving. Many packets things call PC or home. They're given by the grown ups 2 children for good luck. Originally the Chinese. Wrapped the money in just this piece of square red. Paper. This is. The result. Eventually during World War Two this envelope was involved so that eliminated the complicated folding. Today. One could go down to Chinatown and purchase these fancy envelopes or home while they are in many

designs they may have birds and Dragons or flowers. During the New Year's celebration. Children serve to the grownups. And when they do they receive receive. This is a part of their training and filial piety for showing their respect to the elders. When they serve the to the grown ups bits of candied fruits or vegetables. In other words are put into the cup and serve to wish them a sweet life. Although the Chinese in the way have assimilated Western ways it is important for the young to appreciate Chinese for this in. A way to achieve. Peace. The younger generation. Appreciate. The Chinese preserve customs and traditions that have existed for centuries. In Hawaii. As they say satinwood mountains. Many of these customs of practice today. Family bonds religion ancient

crafts. Music dance and philosophy. Maintaining the unique traditions and nature of the Chinese to make a lasting contribution to the art and culture of. The preceding program has been made possible by grants from Shevonne USA

in Hawaii and the state foundation on culture and the arts. The following program is a production of HGT in Honolulu Hawaii

Public Television. The following program is made possible by grants from the state foundation on culture and the arts and Chevon USA in Hawaii. Today. On spectrum. Second if you send me know Jane Markham can get an interview with noted to what you are. John dominance and. The descendant of ancient Riaan chieftains from the island of Hawaii and Maui. Mr. Howard is publisher of the top gallant press in Honolulu. Skewes.

Good evening and welcome again to spectrum. Thank you for joining us from time to time. We invite here on spectrum. Ladies or gentlemen who have been prominent contributors to the culture and arts of the Hawaiian community. And today our special guest is John Dominic Holt who faces his. Hawaiian. Racial heritage. The old chiefs are the islands of Mali. And the big island he is currently the publisher of topgallant press. He has received part of his higher education at George Washington University and at Columbia University on the mainland. He is an author who has researched and written on topics relevant to the 19th century Hawaiian history and has read papers before such groups as a Hawaiian historical society a Bishop Museum and a daughter of Hawaii. In addition to his essays and title on being Hawaiian and monarchy in Hawaii he has also written a dramatized biography of Queen Kalani known as famous are the flowers. John if you don't mind my calling you that. Welcome

to you and don't mind at all. Nice to have you do we we met actually only once before and it's just so fascinating on the August precincts of the Bishop Museum which is a good place to me. Absolutely. You have a famous name John domus And I think I asked you at that time when we first met. Is there any relationship between you and the name with little Colonie that name has caused me a great deal of involved. It's involved me in a lot of inquiries through the years especially recently worked with the restaurant. And what with the Queen my great great grandfather Robert Holt who came here in the 1820s was married his first wife was a Miss Agnes Jones. And she was the sister of Mrs. Captain Dominic. She was Mary Jo. And they were the daughters of a Boston merchant and my great great grandfather's first wife died. And after that he came out here sort of looking for something

new to do and he came out here at the prompting of Captain dominance who said there are some interesting things happening out there you know. Go go go for it. And he did. And so the two families are very very close. And when he married for the second time a part Hawaiian lady the daughter of his partner James Robinson. He named his children within the context of the Owen Jones and dominance families. His older son became John Donvan his whole first in his second some game James Robinson. Third son Owen Jones hold Owen Jones have been the name of his original father so that's how that works. And the family was always close and govern and dominance and my grand father and his brothers always consider themselves first cousins and your family began as Rangers actually this goes way back now as Rangers and you own land between McCain and why he won.

Well actually Robert Holt was a ship builder he was a businessman. He acquired labs because of his marriage to a high ranking woman and and his sons then went into ranching and 1850s and 60s Makaha was one one area which was ranch and the other was why here was Holy Mother and why Lucia. And my great grandfather and his brothers and then my grandfather and his brothers and my father to some extent of his generation were all caught up in that web of ranching with his cattle cattle and then horses cattle first horses later they bred race horses and carriage horses imported them from Kentucky. The old K.A. Bazy used to be called a caterer breed the caterer strain and they raised them very successfully here. And sold them to many people in Hawaii is carriage horses. What happened though after this.

What was the year when we were here this was about 1860 to about 1910 1920 an active life tragic event ended about 1920 and then it gave way to agriculture sugar and sugar while on a plantation was extremely successful. They absorb the whole lines and use them in their sugar growing efforts and very successfully and then Makaha eventually won plantation looked you know with a with a very keen eye. That's the neighboring Valley and ultimately talk the family into into leasing and then selling their account. It must've been John a wonderful time and perhaps you could tell us a little bit when in your youth how you remember those days and something actually you had some saddening experiences and some of the changes that had happened. Well very saddening. I think that they were always mixed with great joy and excitement and Makow to us was it wasn't just a place it was a state of mind. I mean it

was a glorious thing that existed. I could I connected with my legs and geranium ways because the rays pick Akis grew profusely over the old outhouses you know there were just huge bushes produce thousands of flowers. So when people left a mark of a weekend and they got on the trains when they stopped at all when they stopped by that was oh you've been to the hopes of Makaha they could tell immediately because of the days the very romantic life very unreal almost a fantasy existence is pleasant. It was very pleasant. It was it was it was a world of high fashion and high manners beautiful speech people were charming they were well-read. I mean you must think royalty came here from the world over and visited away and eventually they went to these different country places which are owned by Hawaiians by the winds and other people. And and they brought great culture and they brought style

to Hawaii. Something happened though John at some point in their early years and you decided to leave Hawaii one thing the family lost its Ladd's get to sell them lose them they lost its wealth they lost its They lost their job they became centered. They lost their you know the Makaha the ranches around which the life revolved. That was shocking and very shocking. And in my generation as a teenager you know things are pretty well wiped out for my father. My mother of course who came from Maui came from a sugar growing family the Baileys on my way. This was still intact economically but I was fragmented hurt and confused and I wondered who the hell I was. What was happening. And I really wanted to go away and get lost in the multitudes of America. And when did you find. Well I found a very interesting place that reflected what I'd read in Frank

Noras and then in you know in Upton Sinclair and what I'd read in the novels of William Deane howl's and and certainly in her in ofat Pharrell you know the ME and in what your sister Carrie what's his name. But what was that to you. What was that was to me I was identifying with people away from here I was identifying with a literary literary creation that sort of relieved me from having to be concerned with my own environment my own past my own background in other words I could shed the pain and the and the concern for my position in a way and what had happen here and be lost in in inAmerica the multitudes of nights to walk amongst them to look at but my enjoyment came from reading American writers you lead a very

romantic early life and then suddenly you were catapulted into this industrial empire going back to the east coast certainly wanting to see the sea the capital of the United States. You went to Columbia University and around all of that eastern sea coast you had a lot of industry. How did that affect you. I loved New York. I just felt again you see I was escaping my roots I was escaping the problems of way the breakdown the Hawaiians the loss of monarchy the loss of our own personal fortune the loss of lands. I was getting away from that and losing myself in a new cultural experience. What did you do in New York that was so varied. I did everything I H.M.S. trained me to begin with all those wonderful restaurants you know the little ones in the village and up on the east side. And then then I really don't deeply into the culture that I went to opera all the time. Standing room only one dollar place right back of the what is it called the the dress.

And I went to doctors over to Columbia I immersed myself in that world. Margaret Mead Ari Shapiro Ruth Benedict all these wonderful people. The Countess Alexa Tolstoy Tolstoy's daughter you know 62 inches tall shades of my great grandmother on a Ghobadi and these wonderful Russians and I identified with them I learned Russian French or German to some extent and I just became immersed in life in New York and of course you studied anthropology at the time then you but you came back to Hawaii. Why did you come back after having all this excitement on the mainland. Well I had this excitement we went abroad after the war in 1950s and and and I just thought you know was too. There were two there were two possibilities one is to go and live in England and London I suppose and the other was to come home and I decided to come home. And when I came home I fell in love with Hawaiian plots with no

foliage with the eggs exotic looking things that grew here and it grew so well I'd only now knew them as interior plants or as plants and glass houses and a botanical garden. But here they were growing naturally and I just fell in love with Hawaiian floral philodendron and Heliconia. And my mother encouraged me of course. We had a place in my multivalue at the time which was rather large and she encouraged me to go out and buy plants and plant them and to use fertilizers compost and what have you. And something this garden sprung up and I thought oh my god I've been running away from all of this. I kept of course I was drinking heavily and having a great time you know sort of losing myself once again getting lost from the pressures you see a culture of Hawaii of Hawaii and having lost all that before and being influenced by the mainland. And then you became a landscape architect as the result of falling in love. I went and tried

San Francisco for a year and it didn't work. So I came back and I became a landscape architect and had really plunged heavily into the into planting plants and into growing plants and planting people people's gardens. And I loved it. But then you became what. Of course you are today and then the publisher of topgallant present when you're the first publisher you're your company. Yes yes. My wife that and I started it. We began it. We both like books and she'd done what I'd done she'd gone to New York too to find herself to discover itself did she. Yes she did. She did. But you came home and made peace with her. I am. We've been living happily ever after. And I have a wonderful book published in the U.S. and India which we both liked. She's a Radclyffe product you know Rob to be a very heady and intellectual. OK. Why did why did you want to own a publishing company. Because we thought that there were there were pieces of writing here that

really needed exposure. There were people working here or in the subject of a way whose whose value. I mean the university press can't do everything. I mean they're limited in what they can do. And it's it's it's plausible see what they choose to do. So we thought we'd take the things that maybe they didn't like and we've taken some other things that I'm sure they would have liked. And I think we developed a very successful publishing. We've got 43 44 titles. We're doing a biography of of Howard Hitchcock The Painter. Very good when written by his daughter Helen. And with beautiful photographs of his paintings accumulated by his granddaughter June me and it's going to be a very fun book. I'm doing another book on Hawaiian feathers. Topgallant will do we're doing up and coming up soon. Coming up this year we're doing a novel written by Doris Kohno which is called Her RWY a child of away. A beautiful novel

about a write about growing up Japanese on the Hamacher coast is very different from Mildrid very Armas. All I am asking for is my body. It's very different. It's a charming memoir you might say. What is the criteria that you set for topgallant. It doesn't have to be a specific type of subject matter that you will publish. Well we were interested first of all the books that are concerned about her we have a certain quality you would have some literary cool and then if we can't find those books here then we are interested in getting works from other parts of Polynesia. So someone has a manuscript they'd like to approach you or they can just call you and send it. Send one of the books that you wrote it was called Monarchie in Hawaii in that you discussed the relationship between the calculus and the come of him as you know a very funny story about Princess Ruth.

I wonder if you can relate that well there was no lost love lost between these two families one of them has inherited the problem early inherited from my grandfather and great grandfather was the break the man. Who was hereditarily. You know he was with colonial pool when we met. When I was well established as the only local. So they consider themselves as the absolute be the ruling family and when they pooped out died off. I don't think they could stand the idea of another family you know taking the throne let alone somebody like David Glocke how you see whom they did not particularly like. He was very much in the court scene but he was always just a functionary. He was never looked at as a possible heir to the throne while the rumpus was Queen Emma. But when Commander of fifth was dying and there was this specter You see he was losing mithral. We all gather in the palace in his bedroom as a matter of fact

and he offered the throne to benice power he bishop and at one time he had been Botros info. She said Oh no not me. I could never be queen of English very highly. And of course she spoke awhile as well. And she turned to the prince's route. She said My cousin is closer to the throne than. The king fell into a dead silence and everyone of course their jaws dropped you see because Ruth was not really considered material to the throne except in terms of lineage and geology. And why would she not. Well because she was rough. She was I mean she was she was a character. I mean she you know she would slap people if she felt like she would. And she was always dragging people to court and she was not considered Anyhow good material for the show. When the silence got uncomfortable she cleared her throat from a corner of the room and.

And in this booming voice she said she turned to her brother who was dying and said it's quite all right. You're right. I've sat and she pointed to the throne room and she said I've sat in that chair before. It isn't a get off. Both literally and Mandaeans and through me. Yes she was very funny. She had another ancestor you see that was different from her her half brothers who was with him. I thought her father was a pire our mother was a violent of course. You have been called the first man to talk about the Renaissance the Hawaiian renaissance here and I think it might be interesting to talk a little bit about that now. How do you see. How do you define one last chance here and why temperance. One reason why the current renaissance begins with Hawaiians looking at themselves in a historic historic context. I think that we take it for granted all through the years that you know terrible things happen from the moment cook Captain Cook

arrived in through no fault of his or anybody's just happened. And that that continue to happen all the way down. Juan's loss. It would be losing losing losing. Many people dying and and the culture died certainly. And I think the Renaissance begins with our accepting that these these terrible things happen. And I was looking at the possibilities of some of the possibilities of what happened and doing something about it. And I think that that the Hawaiian renaissance is nothing more than Hawaiians saying to themselves look terrible things happen. We want to look at them. I know a lot many of us in jail many of us are living marginalized and non-locally in my mind although many of us are very in very bad health and many of us are doing poorly in school. But let's look at it and do something about it. I think the Renaissance is nothing more than something is being done about it. Do you think it's successful. I think it is very successful in the sense that it has awakened in many Hawaiians the sense of

the need to change. I think I think we are now sort of looking at ourselves sort of feeling joyful about our advantages as a people are advantages culturally and the position we occupy the islands of this beautiful place was first ours. And what we established we as a culture as a way of life has affected everybody that has come to her way. What the governor calls the aloha spirit what many of us go the spirit of the Hawaiian way of life Hawaiian ethos however you wish to describe it it is it is fundamentally an Aboriginal Hawaiian thing. You know it strikes me as is we're talking that there must be a dichotomy within yourself here. You were born and reared in Hawaii with all the descendants you have McLeans of Forth and yet you've been educated and trained and influenced by the West. How does that all work. How do you put that all

together. It used to be a very unhappy mixture in me in the past because I didn't know what to do about it. I mean all that stuff has been resolved I think because I really enjoy being being not being a kind of citizen of the world and yet being very much a product of Hawaii of this space. I mean I enjoy reading Proust you know very much. I went through a period of identified very closely with Russian writers but just skin to gain the untold story. And you know immersing myself in their culture in there and certainly in that fiction because these people wrote and then of course I've been periods when I felt very close to the English writers and the English culture. And and I enjoy the feeling at home saying Proust and reading Proust that complicated elaborate magnificent novel. And I can relate so much of what happens improves to Hawaii in a

microcosmic way in a small way. You see we have the same kind of world the same almost the same cast of characters. Do you think though that the average Hawaiian born here can maintain their own culture and their own ideals and traditions in this 20th century society has been influenced so much by industry and high technology. I don't think we can go back and black practice religion to practice when Captain Cook arrived to use hey I was a priest who use human sacrifice I think it's possible human sacrifice alone is impossible. But I think that we can understand something about the old religion and use I use elements in the old religion and I feel very calm. I'm very calm when I go into a hey you know I was never comfortable but now I'm comfortable because I accept the reality of it having been a temple. Do you believe in the mana of the land. I feel the spirit. I very much do.

I really do I feel the mana in rocks I feel about trees I feel them in places you go up one valley each little gully has its name and you know why it was named name that you feel a very close relationship to it when you can connect. By virtue of the name by virtue of even little bits of history that took place there that you know of through chance through Mollo. So you feel that the Hawaiians today can resolve this within themselves and live comfortably and still maintain their traditions. I think Hawaiians are Hawaiians in many ways and I think they maintain that. I think Hawaiians have a high degree of s.p I think VSP comes from the old culture. I think Hawaiians are natural born mystics who take an hour winds do into the dark and immediately they get color means goose pimples chicken skin chicken skin. Your skin is OK color it's a white. And this is because of this ancient way of relating yourself to the unseen sea. I think the Hawaiian understanding a Cosmic Universal was great tremendous.

In a minute or two that we have left. You mentioned there are three bright items in the future for Hawaii. One you said was a nucleus of high culture exciting people and active business I wonder if you could just touch on those points. There's the whole South Pacific has been a sort of um untouched place culturally painting Gauguin maybe imagined it just follow but in painting in music I think great music Scoville's guys probably see soap operas and I think it's great books to be written from what music specifically what music I think. I think people who write symphonic music to write operas opera particularly because it is the environment and its history lends itself to grand opera. How about exciting people. What do you see in that. Oh I think great. I think this is the most beautiful place in the world in terms of land in terms of its air in terms of you know the magic of its physicality. And I think some of the most beautiful people in the world if you just I mean you can see the excitement of going out on a sento any place to see this.

This is spectrum. It's not a part of of local people you know looking so gorgeous. I mean it's wonderful the skin color the eyes everything. It's really amazing that you take a society we're living in here with such vast ethnic difference and yet it's all working. Of course are differences and changes and so forth but it's all it's working. It works beautifully. Yeah how about high in business. Well I hope High-Tech comes here. I really do because I think it's a very good industry and it's here to stay. Let's face it we cannot erase it from the universe. And if that's going to be hijacked let's have some of it. It makes a lot of money which we need. We are not into pure socialism yet we still need capitalist dollars and if we're going to produce capitalist dollars let's get them in an ice cream way and I Dexie's me. And I think that our people here they say that our people don't know mathematics that we're not close enough to the mathematical

tradition of Europe. So people have even gone so far as to say that and I doubt it. I think there are already people here who are working in high technology who show real sort of skill and talent in mathematics. You as a publisher now. What do you see in literature coming up in the next few years. Do you see fine scholars and I think we need a little more time for really really first rate novels for really complicated sort of you know Saul Bellow type novels Bernard Melillo type. Well took the Jewish culture a long time to sort of reach the part where it could produce a Saul Bellow over in America and in Malibu and the other George Roth and others and I think we're moving in that direction here. I've talked to some the young people who write poetry who write little short bitsy pieces they haven't learned yet how to plow into big heavy hard pieces of work that they're going to. John you seem to be a very happy man. I am very happy. I have every reason in the world to be

happy. I have a wonderful wife. I have a very comfortable house and I love this place and I love living in Hawaii. Being here I should be happy. I should have my head examined. John Diamond thank you so much for being our guest today has been delightful having a chance to chat with you and sharing some of your experiences back out with our friends at home. You're entirely welcome. It's been a delight. Thank you. John Dominic has been our special guest today and lecturer author and publisher I want to thank you very much for joining us today on spectrum. I hope that you didn't lighten and enjoyed some of our conversation with John. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you again next time around. Aloha. A. Man

that. The preceding program has been made possible by grants from Chevron USA in Hawaii and the state foundation on culture and the arts.