Spectrum Hawaii; Molokai; Interview with Filmmakers: Carroll Ballard, Director & Hiro Narita, Cinematographer

The following program is a production of KHET in Honolulu, Hawaii, Public Television. Spectrum is made possible in part by a grant from the Hawaii State Foundation on Culture and the Arts, and by the people of Chevron in Hawaii, with assistance from the Kalualoi Corporation. [Hawaiian folk music] [Host] Thirty-five miles off the coast of the 12th largest city in America lies Molokai.

The island of Molokai, where outdoor living is common practice, where history remembers its children. It is an island of abundant resources, of a rich soil which sustains thriving livestock, prosperous fields, and warm citizens. [Slow music continues] Its slower tempo and closer hospitality gives one time to acquire a point of view.

[Speaker] Molokai is a very unique place. It's different from the other islands. If I question somebody, why do you call Molokai the friendly island? And somebody told me, maybe by now, you should [?notice it is true?]. It is a friendly island. Up to today, I could say we are living up to that tradition. [Host] The friendly tradition of Molokai. A small island where neighbors are well-acquainted. Where greetings are often shared. [Speaker] There's a cheerful good morning, every morning. You know, what are you doing, how are you? No, I don't suppose the rest of the world is too concerned about that. But we are, very much so. [Host] And a helping hand is frequently offered. [Speaker] What are you doing? Oh, I'm going to Kaunakakai. Could I get something for you? I have the car going. They don't have a car. Oh, could you pick me up some onions or whatever. Sure, gladly you'll do

that. That's the way we get along. [Host] One of the many ways we get along is by song. Troubles and cares dissolve in the tempo of a Molokai melody. Here, the [?Kakai?] Trio sing a song of Molokai. [Music] [Host] Molokai was once known as a place of knowledge

and retreat. Here, kings were educated, restless souls could find spiritual solace in isolated sanctuaries. [Speaker] On Molokai, you're really concerned with being a human being. Molokai has always been a center of learning, and, I think, traditionally, I should say, among the Hawaii people. And that's the attractiveness and the beauty of Molokai. [Molokai music] [Speaker] I don't know if a teacher is appreciated today as much as we were appreciated back in the 30s and 40s. I think, with all due respect to TV, I think some

children may be not spending enough time on their homework and perhaps they are not motivated enough like our children were. They lived in the country, where they had so few extras in life that they did their homework. [Host] Marie Place is a Hawaiian who has remained faithful to the traditional learning of Molokai. The Hawaiian belief that the body is sacred has led Marie Place to encourage natural healing. She meditates in prayer, in addition to skillfully blending local herbs in order to treat the elements of her family and friends. [Place] I do it all on my children first. I go to the hospital. They always ask me, "Gee, I haven't seen your children's record. You know, what happened? What do you do with them when they are babies? When they are a child. You say, they have cold, all sorts of things." I say, "I'll take care of them."

[Host] Her effective treatments and loving methods have attracted the attention of foreign visitors, who now attend her demonstrations. [Place] Well, they say really enjoy it and because they don't even know about these herbs. They thought it was just a plain weed that is in your garden. I said, "No. Not all of them." But, again, they have to know how to prepare and what it's for. [Host] Marie Place has honored requests to share her knowledge with local high schools, where many students have remembered their family lessons in this healing art. She encourages such family traditions. [Place] That's what I know -- is what my mother taught me. And that's what I carry on with my children. I know, with my generation, like myself, I can say I will carry on as long as I live.

[Host] Molokai's symbol, the Kukui tree, is easily discernible along hillsides by its light green color. [Mendonca] The hills, the mountains are covered with the Kukui tree. It is very symbolic of Molokoi. [Host] Mary Mendonca enjoys wearing a necklace made from Kukui nuts for identity. [Mendonca] And we use that--the senior citizens use this a lot when we travel from the Islands because it tells them who we are. Now, the Kukui tree, you must know by now, is a very valuable name to the Hawaiian. [birds chirping] [Host] On the east end of Molokai, there is a sacred grove of Kukui trees that harbors a mysterious past. Buried here is Lanikaula, the famed kahuna,

whose spiritual power was so formidable the chieftains sought his favor. Other kahunas were drawn to Molokai, giving it an awesome reputation. Being a center of mysterious power provided Molokai with protection and peace. [Speaker] A lot of the peace that Molokai had during Hawaiian history was a result of the fact that all the kings, in a way they were in awe of Molokai. They formed marital alliances with Molokai, so they all had family over here, so was no alienation. It's been called the mysterious island. [Drum and chant] [Host] A Hawaiian chant echoes in the distance. An act of gratitude is being performed, a song of thanks for the

silent clouds, the filmy mist, and the gentle winds that carry the scent of mili and lehua, far across the rolling hills. It is chanted by Rachel [?Kamakana?] and performed by the Hula Halau O Molokai. [Drum and chant continues] [Host] It is a chant that praises the ocean

as well. Here on the north end of Molokai, the oceans waves wash up on the shores of a very special settlement. [Speaker] My grandfather had a sampan that we used to ride over to the north shore of the island. That's where they planted Taro. And he had a contract to deliver that poi to the settlement, the Kalaupapa settlement. Everyone on Molokai soon learned about the Kalaupapa settlement. Here, a restricted community of lepers were to live out their lives, neglected. Until one day, a change came. [Speaker] I have seen how, [inaudible] shall we say, my father was, come from the mainland and live on Molokai after so long, they just love it. They are one of us after that. They're not afraid or ashamed to say what's bothering them.

[Host] One such gentleman who was not afraid to say what was bothering him was Father Damien, a Belgian priest who sacrificed his life in the service of his mission. Before dying, he had improved the lot of the Molokai lepers. And he built churches. St. Philomena was his base, but he also built Our Lady of Sorrows and St. Josephs. Many of the best preserved churches on Molokai are located near the Kapuaiwa Coconut Grove, which was planted by King Kamehameha V. These houses of worship contain a partly native Hawaiian membership, built on land provided by the Hawaiian Homes Commission. This distinguished mural, which frames the altar of the Grace Episcopal

Church in Ho'olehua, is the work of Jean Charlot. It depicts two angels in reverence before the flame of divinity. It was Jean Charlot's gift to Molokai. A carved sculpture of wood reveals older Hawaiian customs. This image of Hina represents the goddess most prominent in Molokai legend. [Speaker] Hina was the mother of Molokai or the guardian of Molokai. So when they refer to Molokai, that's the famous saying of the Hawaiians, "Moloka'i Nui A Hina." It means Molokai belongs to Hina. [Host] The Hina sculpture is but one example of Alapai Hanapi's work. His devotion to the principles of traditional Hawaiian and wood carving advance in step with his knowledge of ancient legend

and lore. [Hanapi] I take most of my ideas from ancient religion, legends. I felt like perpetuating some type of the Hawaiian culture, so I went into woodworking or wood carving, which is a traditional Hawaiian artform. [Host] Here, he carves a piece which he will enter in a major South Pacific exhibit in New Caledonia. It represents the Polynesian idea of creation, known to Alapai through the Kumulipo chant of creation. [Hanapi] I'm self-taught. I just go by feel. Sometimes, I don't see anything in the wood for a long time. When I do see it, I work it. Sometimes, I lose it and I go on to another piece of wood. But here, on Molokai, it's been really nice since we have our own land, you know. And everything is more more easy-easy now.

When we lived on Oahu, we had to pay rent, we had a certain lifestyle. Here we got all the lifestyle we need. We got a supermarket right out here on the ocean. We got a icebox up in here in the mountain. A lot of inspiration down here. [Host] Feeling cramped after hours of detailed work, Alapai turns to a natural solution. [Hanapi] The back get cramped a little bit. You stand up, shake it off, see some ripples out there, and go, "Oh! Mama, get the net! Get the net!" Bring the net, get the fish, you know. Mama scale them, clean them. [inaudible] Bring home the poi too! [laughs] Molokai is [inaudible] for fishing, you know. Plenty fish, good fishing areas. They always see you before you see them, so you gotta be real fast when you throw it in there. It's pretty casual, you know. Unless you really hungry. [Hanapi laughs] You see, there's all types of fishing. Throw net is one type. There's lay net. There's diving. Spear fishing.

Any kind. I'm not the best, you know. But just like everybody else here on Molokai, everybody does a little bit of everything. Little farming, little fishing, little hunting. You know, they have to in order to supplement their diet. [Speaker] Molokai's a place where, if you're not that lazy, you'll be able to survive. [Host] Contributing to the early survival of Hawaiians were fish ponds. Molokai once had the largest concentration of fish ponds in Hawaii. Most of these ancient ponds, enclosed by coral and stone walls, were ruined by silt and tidal activity. This is one of the exceptions, however. Maintained by the Hawaiian Academy of Knowledge, an alternative educational program, this pond is active. [Helm] We have a unique situation here. We have a fish pond, and what

students do is they go out and they catch the fingerlings, which are the pua, the mullet. And they'll stock them in cages that they built themselves. [Host] Working closely with the Department of Education and Kamehameha Schools, Adolf Helm supervises a variety of students between the ages of 15 and 18. [Helm] They come out in the morning and they spend their whole day here. We offer them a broad range of subjects, from Hawaiian language, to arts and crafts, to marine studies, to agriculture. And, of course, they have to learn their standard math and English. Our main objective, in terms of values here, is to make the person who goes to this school a better person. One, is to learn self respect. Two, is to learn to love the land base of this particular school, the

ocean and its people. Well, a lot of the kids on these kids on Molokai, a lot of people might have, especially in Hawaii, might have some misconceptions in terms of what kids on Molokai do. They don't necessarily do a lot of fishing. They don't necessarily do a lot of farming. Some of the kids down here, this is the first time that they are exposed to that kind of environment. Some of the programs that we teach down here are subjects that aren't teach in the high school, in terms of offering the kids more on-hands opportunity to get involved with the land. [Upbeat ukulele music] [Host] The land of Molokai is a rich resource. Molokai's efforts in agriculture are helping Hawaii to become self-sufficient. Mainland imports are fewer now. Large farms have been instrumental in raising Molokai up to

become the state leader in beans, sweet potatoes, bell peppers, and watermelons. Yet, Molokai's rich lava soil maintains the small farmer as well. A family farm offers a precious opportunity to remain close to the land. [cow moo] [rooster crows] And to the animals. [Speaker] We respect the land. We respect our elders who preceded us. They had left that feeling that you are part of the land. [Host] Corn is a part of the Molokai land, a very special part. During the winter months, Molokai is America's favorite place to study and perfect corn. [Speaker] Molokai is an ideal place for winter research. We have 365 days of perfect growing weather.

The hotter the weather, the better corn likes it. [Host] The Hawaiian Research Company are custom farmers. They supply America's corn companies with seed corn that is consistently reliable. This seed corn produces other generations of corn that will be uniform in size, texture, and maturity. There is also no danger of frost on Molokai. [Speaker] This is important to the farmers of America because I've heard an estimate that probably half of the corn, or better, that is currently grown in America has at one time had one of its ancestors here on Molokai. The corn of other countries is finding its source on Molokai too. Countries such as Canada, South Korea, Germany, Italy, and France. [Speaker] The research work that is done here is

extremely important. You could consider Molokai to be the Silicon Valley of the seed corn industry in the wintertime. [Host] Molokai is valued for many reasons. There is its beauty. [Music continues] And its song. [Music continues] Its wisdom. And its history. But what about its future? [Speaker] People are always asking me about Molokai and the development of Molokai. And I feel that Molokai will develop at his own speed, at the speed that the island wants, that the island's people want. I don't think that anything will change that. I think it provides the opportunity

for Molokai to assume its historical role of being a place of retreat and learning. [Host] A lifelong devotee of learning who has taught in the Molokai classroom for 42 and a half years is Mrs. KaWano. [KaWano] Oh, I like this place. I just came back from Honolulu yesterday, after being there a few days. Right now, I can say that, with all due regard to you people from Honolulu, I can say Honolulu is a good place to be from. [Host] And when Molokai assumes a festive dress, the community assembles in celebration. The friendly isle opens its doors and wears a smile. [Festive music] [Hawaiian music] [Hawaiian music]

[Hawaiian music] [Hawaiian music]

[Hawaiian music] [Hawaiian music] [Hawaiian music] [Hawaiian music] [Applause, fades out with music] [Crickets] [Host] There's an old saying from this friendly isle of retreat and knowledge. The older generations of Molokai have counseled the younger with this: "Even if you don't believe it. respect it." [Music]

[music] [Station director interrupts music] The program in one minute. [Music continues] [music] [Station director] Stand by for another program in 30. [Music ends] [Applause] [Voiceover] Spectrum is made possible in part by a grant from the Hawaii State Foundation

on Culture and the Arts and by the people of Chevron in Hawaii with assistance from the Kaluakoi Foundation. [production countdown] [Station director] Out. [Voiceover] The following program is a production of KHET in Honolulu, Hawaii,

Public Television. [Voiceover 2] The following program has been funded in part by the Hawaii State Foundation on Culture and the Arts, and a grant from the people of Chevron in Hawaii. [Interstitial music] Today on Spectrum, executive producer Nino J. Martin interviews noted film director Carroll Ballard and cinematographer Hiro Narita. Mr. Ballard is in Hawaii to conduct an American Film Institute workshop focusing on the art of filmmaking within the Hollywood studio system. He is the director of Black Stallion and Never Cry Wolf, two films that have been included in Hawaii's international

film festival. Joining Mr. Ballard is the cinematographer on those two films, Hiro Narita. For his work on "Never Cry Wolf", Mr. Narita has won a National Film Critics Award for Best Cinematography. He has also received an Emmy nomination for Best Cinematography for his work on an NBC Movie of the Week entitled "Farewell to Manzanar". Here's Nino J. Martin. [Martin] It's fascinating. Good evening and welcome to Spectrum. Thank you for joining us. And I'd like to welcome both of our guests, Carroll Ballard and Hiro Narita. And thank you for taking time out of that busy day that you've had -- well, the whole week down at the film festival. How's it going? [Ballard] It's going really well. I mean, there are some excellent films. I think it's a really good idea because the American film industry has always sort of been oriented in the other direction. It's about time that there was more contact toward the West -- the West or East or however you want to look at it.

[Martin] Depends on what part of the world you're in. [Ballard] I mean toward the Pacific and across the Pacific. Because the world is slowly becoming unified. [Martin] One thing interesting about both of you. You started out wanting to do something else other than making films, and, suddenly, Carroll, you were going to be an industrial designer, growing up in Lake Tahoe, California. And then you went down to Los Angeles and decided to become a filmmaker. And, Hiro, you were a graphic designer and then got into films. So I'd like to find out from each of you how that all happened for you. Carroll? [Ballard] The important thing, I guess the important word for me was independence. I wanted to do something where I was pretty much my own boss, and I didn't like working for a big company. I didn't like the idea of working for a big company. So when I was in high school, I kind of gravitated toward...I liked to design cars and

things. So I got interested in becoming a designer, and I went to a school in Los Angeles, and, after I was there about two years, I realized that I was in a gig that there was really no way to go but to work for a big corporation because either you have a lot of money and design products and sell them, because it takes a lot of money to manufacture them, or you work for a big corporation. So after that brilliant reality finally impressed itself upon me, I joined the Army and sort of waffled around for several years, saw some interesting movies, and decided to try to get in that. [Martin] And that was it. And you did some documentaries, particularly with animals. You did "Swine", which was about pigs. [Ballard] Yeah. [Martin] I could have gone all day without bringing that one up, right?

And then the one about cats. Why animals? [Ballard] Well, essentially because I was terrified of actors. I really wanted to make feature films, I really wanted to get in the big time and all that, but I was really afraid of, you know, dealing with people. And at that time, there was a lot of money in the educational system to do small films for children. So after college that became a little gig for me to sort of survive with. And so that was how it was that I made all these pictures about animals. [Martin] You won awards with them, certainly, and then finally Francis Ford Coppola called you and said, "How would you like to direct the 'Black Stallion'." And that must have been quite a day for you. [Ballard] Well, he didn't say he wanted me to make "The Black Stallion". He said he wanted to make a film. I thought, okay, now we're going to get in the big time. It wasn't until that I found out that they were thinking about "The Black Stallion" and that was not, to me, that was not great because I was sick of animal films at that time.

I didn't want to do anymore. God, give me a break. [laughs] [Martin] You'd become the animal director. [Ballard] That's what happens. [Martin] And then, eventually, then you did, of course, "Never Cry Wolf", which we'll be talking about in just a minute. I want to get to you now. Hiro, you were you were born in Korea. And how did you get over here? [Narita] Well, after the war, we moved back to Japan, where my parents were from. And then after my father died, my mother and the rest of the family, moved to Hawaii. With regards to our background, both of us sort of have to thank Army. Those two years, as Carroll did watch movies, I too spent a lot of time watching movies. Anyway, when I was in high school, because of a language problem I spent a lot of time in art classes and photography classes. That's where I could do my best. And I was

always interested in picture making but not sure whether I was going to be a painter or a graphic designer or whatever. Anyway, slowly the idea of picturemaking, of the single frame, let's say, in stills or a painting, became kind of frustrating. I wanted to see some sequence of images. And I think, I could be wrong, but years later, this whole idea of sequence of image led me to filmmaking. [Martin] So you got a movie camera and you started playing around. [Narita] That came much later, much later. [Martin] Okay, now the two of you worked together recently on a project. Carroll, you directed. "Never Cry Wolf". And, Hiro you were the cinematographer. I'd like to explore some of your thoughts and philosophy, some of the frustrations and so forth, but before we do that, I'd like to introduce our audience to a little clip that we have, so they'll know what we're talking about.

So let's take a look now at about a five minute clip, given to us by Walt Disney Productions, on the production of the motion picture film of "Never Cry Wolf". Let's take a look at that. [Voiceover] Director Carroll Ballard's first feature film was the highly acclaimed "The Black Stallion" in 1979. Ballard recently completed his second movie. This one is called "Never Cry Wolf". It's the story of a rookie biologist played by Charles Martin Smith, challenged by life in the Arctic. In an age of formula movies, Carroll Ballard makes films that defy duplication. As he explains, it's a painstaking process. [Ballard] Certain shots were shot months away from other shots. A scene that would last 30 seconds on screen, you know, this shot was shot August the 12th in this place and this angle over here was shot the next year in July in that place over there 4000 miles away. [Voiceover] "Never Cry Wolf" producer Lewis Allen accommodated Ballard's style.

[Allen] So there are surprises all the time going along, but, I mean, he knows exactly what he wants and one has to, as a producer, function around the way he works rather than try to impose a schedule or a particular way of working on him. You can't do that, I don't think, and he's all the better for that. [Voiceover] When the sun is low on the horizon at dawn or dusk, filmmakers call it Magic Hour for the glowing quality it gives photography. In the Land of the Midnight Sun, Ballard enjoyed a luxury. [Ballard] The picture appears like, my God, we waited for the Magic Hour every single night. No. Fact is that the Magic Hour was all night long. [Smith] I guess you could call him a perfectionist. He just isn't going to settle for something if it isn't done right. And, as a result, it takes him an awful long time to make a picture. [Voiceover] Actor Charles Martin Smith spent two grueling years on "Never Cry Wolf". [Ballard] I remember when he first flew in, we were up in this valley in the middle of nowhere. Got off the plane, there was a grizzly bear sort of rolling around, right next to the strip that he landed on. And, you know,

they loaded him in a pickup truck and drove him out. We threw some clothes on him and the sun was setting. And I wanted this great light. And, of course, I just sort of threw him out there and said, "Okay, Charlie, act this way." You really have to hand it to him. I mean, the great thing about Charlie is he stayed in there, boy. And there aren't many actors around today who would have. [Smith] He was extremely liberal with me as far as letting me develop the character myself, which was interesting. I hadn't expected it. We ended up working together very well. [Voiceover] Smith's most challenging scenes were played opposite these first-time actors, Inuit Eskimos Ballard recruited for the film. [Smith, in film] No, no thanks. I don't eat fish. [Speaker, in film] What do you eat? [Smith, in film] Actually, I eat mice. [Smith] They were completely natural and absolutely relaxed. And it was difficult for me because as soon as you put an actor next to a real person

like that, especially as low-key as they are, everything that an actor does is going to look really phony, you know, really as though he's acting. So I had to become as real as they did in the part of Tyler. [Smith, in film] You see, the wolves are supposed to eat caribou. However there are no caribou. Basically, what the wolves have been eating is mice. So I'm conducting an experiment to see whether a carnivore, a big animal, can live on nothing but mice. [Speaker, in film speaks Inuit] [Smith, in film] What does he say? [Interpreter, in film] He says good idea. [Voiceover] What Carroll Ballard learned about a vanishing Eskimo culture became part of "Never Cry Wolf". [Ballard] I went up in the northern settlements, looked around, and people have changed a lot. You know, they've been relocated and they've been moved into towns. They all live in these things sort of like trailers and eat junk food and Sugar Pops.

And it's changed them. [Inuit, in film] I met a girl in a bar. And she wanted me to buy her drinks, so I bought her some, and then, after a while, she wanted to come home with me. But, I made a mistake. I smiled at her. That's what happens when a meat eater becomes a sugar eater. [Voiceover] Farley Mowat wrote the book on which "Never Cry Wolf" is based. He was skeptical at first about having his work adapted for a movie. [Mowat] But nobody can translate a book into a film. They're two different things. [Voiceover] When another of Mowat's books was adapted for television, Mowat was so offended by the result that he smashed his typewriter into his TV set. [Mowat] Every author is terrified by what the film people will do to his book, usually with good reason. [Voiceover] But when the producer told Mowat who'd been hired to direct "Never Cry Wolf", Mowat's phobia disappeared. [Mowat] When he picked Carroll Ballard to direct it, I knew we were home free because I had seen "The Black Stallion" and considered it

one of the finest pieces of nature -- and by nature, I mean not only animals but man -- nature photography I had ever seen. So from there on, I was just in a state of euphoria. [Voiceover] But, finally, "Never Cry Wolf" is a product of Carroll Ballard's own passion. The beauty of his vision stems from a conviction. He wants people to see what they have to lose. [Ballard] I really feel very, very, very strongly about the destruction of the natural world. I just think it's one of the most ghastly, horrible crimes imaginable that, you know, people are wiping out species and things that have evolved over millions of years, fantastic miracles of life. [Martin] A scene from "Never Cry Wolf", a feature that's been out for several years now, directed by Carroll Ballard and photographed by Hiro Narita, our guests today on Spectrum. Carroll, why did you make "Never Cry Wolf"? [Ballard] Well, that's like asking, you know, tell me about the

Serbo-Croatian War or something. You know, I mean, it's like there are all kinds of reasons. It was the deal I could make at that particular time. I was extremely naive to think that it was gonna be a simple project and I could just go out there and knock it off and go home. Whole combination of things is why I made that film. [Martin] You have said that you don't you don't like living in your skull, but you like having the interplay with the natural world. How does that relate to "Never Cry Wolf"? [Ballard] Well, it relates to my own life. As a child, I grew up in the Sierras and spent most of my time to myself. Didn't have any brothers or sisters. Was an only child. I lived in a certain way. I related to all the things that were around me. I related to the lake and to the water and to the fish and the trees, all that stuff.

And it was extremely difficult for me when I had to move away from that environment into the city. I just about went crazy for a few years. I mean, I almost became a freeway shooter. You know, one of those guys out there shooting cars. And that's what I mean, I mean, what happens when the more we are kind of acculturated and the more that we move into, you know, an urbanized environment, the more we live inside our own heads. We're no longer aware of all the sensual things that are going on around us all the time. Do we hear the air conditioner over there? Do I hear the cables dragging along the floor here? No! I'm just focused in on the pictures that are in my head. We recreate the world inside of our brain rather than living in it, living in the world that's right there. [Martin] How much though was the message that "Never Cry Wolf" had your message as a filmmaker, contrasted with Mowat's message in the book?

[Ballard] I think that both of the messages were pretty much the same. I think, in a way, Mowat was getting to the same thing. I mean, what happened to him in this story is that he was involved in the Second World War. He landed in Sicily with the Canadians and that was the most terrible part of the Second World War, at least for the Allied Forces. I mean the Canadians get slaughtered in Sicily. And he just wanted to escape from the human race, and that was why he went up there to conduct this experiment with the wolves. And after that, then he did become involved with the Inuit people, and that is what led him later on to write such books as "People of the Deer" and things that were involved with the experiences that he had with the native people there. [Martin] One thing that you mentioned: You think images, you're an image person, and in making a film of this sort, certainly you need a cinematographer such as Hiro to

translate the images that you have as a director into a living medium as film. Why did you select Hiro and how did the two of you get together? Maybe, Hiro, why don't you tell us how the two of you got together? So you could become cinematographer on this. [Hiro] Well, before we became film friends, we became friends and talked about cabinetmaking and so forth. I'm not sure how he chose me for this particular film, but I'm sure he sensed that I may be the right guy to take along to Alaska for this particular film. [Martin] You would be the one-- the least to object. [Hiro, laughs] That may be the reason. [Martin] Then you gave Hiro a picture. And you said this is the image that I've got. [Ballard] Yeah, but I mean, you know, going in you have a lot of images. A film in the beginning for me is just sort of a big fuzzy ball of things. You can't really see it all. You sort of have a sense of what it is and

it doesn't really become a reality until you finish editing and you finally do all that. But, I mean, I'm not a a person who just figures it all out beforehand. I mean, you have some ideas, you know. [Narita] Well, Carroll is sometimes very specific, I mean, to an inch and, at the same time, sometimes very vague. You know, he would draw me a picture of scribbles on a napkin or something, and he said, "Well, this is something like this I want to get." So I have to read his mind as much and I can. Then also how he was reacting to the environment and how I was reacting at the same time. Then, fortunately, it worked out very well. [Martin] You have a very interesting use of color in this film, I might add. We mentioned this yesterday when we were having lunch that, in world of grays and blues, pretty much, and up in the tundra it's very cold, you managed to infuse the picture with color. Occasionally, for example,

that one shot where you have a wide shot of a tundra with a mountain and there's the sun's orb there that's kind of a golden color. Your teacher here at Kaimuki High School -- you happen to come from Kaimuki High School -- said that you, at the time that you were going to school here, liked the somber colors as opposed to the bright and cheery ones. Why is that? [Narita] I have no idea why I respond to those colors. [Martin] Do you shoot, do you look for those kinds of colors? [Narita] Well, not necessarily. But when we got to Alaska or British Columbia, there are loads of the colors that we saw, and Carroll would say, "Ah, that's it, that's it. I'm gonna get it." And sometimes it's too late and then we come back next day and try to get that. And again I was responding to those magical color arrangements.

[Martin] How do the two of you work now? Carroll, do you tell Hiro this is exactly what I want or does he give it to you and then you kind of look at it? How does that work? How does that relationship... [Ballard] No, no, no. Movies are made by lots of people. I mean, you don't just make a movie by yourself, a feature film. You just can't do it. I mean, so really the function of a director, in my point of view, is to be sort of the guy who tries to get everybody going and sort of keep trying to get this whole bunch of people to operate as a creative unit. And in terms of Hiro, I mean, the input that Hiro had to put in the film was extremely crucial to how the film finally, finally came out. And so it was a process of me throwing out an idea, and then Hiro sort of picking up the idea and kicking it around, and then somebody else coming in and kicking it around a little more, and finally something would emerge out of it. [Martin] But you didn't go into this thing with images, then?

[Ballard] Yeah, sure I had images, but I didn't have the whole deal figured out. I mean, the number of images that are in this picture, there's thousands and thousands of them. So, no, I had sort of a fuzzy notion, I had a few little little touchstones around there that, yeah, I was going trying to get that. A lot of them gave up in the process because we found better ones along the way. [Martin] With the film and the television medium, it's such an expensive medium. You're talking about an11 million dollar budget here on "Never Cry Wolf". [Ballard] Well, now, that wasn't the budget. That's what it ended up costing. [Martin] How far did you run over? [Ballard] Almost two million dollars. [Martin] Well, that wasn't too bad. An artist, say a sculptor or a painter, has a one-on-one relationship with his medium. A painter can take the brush with the paint and the canvas and go directly onto it. With television and film, you're dealing with all these people. You're dealing with lights and equipment and so forth. How removed are you as an artist from the final product, from what you originally conceived? [Ballard] Sometimes

you're a long ways away from it. Sometimes you go totally different from what you originally thought. [Martin] But doesn't this get frustrating for you? [Ballard] Sometimes you discover something that's so much better. The business of making a movie is like riding a whirlwind, you know. It's like a riding some kind of real slippery big ball bearing, you know. It's going to slide over this way and you kind of have to stay on it because, a lot of the time, you just can't get what it is you want to get. A lot of the time, things happen, just happen out of nowhere that are much more interesting than what it was you were struggling so hard to try to get. So you have to be able to be very flexible. Especially in the kind of pictures that I've done, I really have to qualify that, in terms of films that involve animals and children and untrained actors, you really have to be able to try to make spontaneous things happen. You have to be able to try to respond to just sort of the flow of things.

[Martin] How much risk is there though on your part in terms of making a film? And you have to take a certain amount of risk, okay. But you also have to make the bosses happy. Where does that balance come? [Ballard] Well, I've been lucky enough on the first two films that I've done that I haven't been hassled by the bosses. So I haven't had that problem yet. [Martin] Are you making the kind of pictures that you really want to make? [Ballard] The only way I can make a film is to make a film that I would like to see. [Martin] And what is that? [Ballard] Well, that's as close as I could come, the two pictures that I've made are as close as I could come to what I would like to see in a film that's made about that subject. Because I don't know how you can make judgments otherwise. How can you make judgements to satisfy somebody else? That gets to be sort of getting the cart before the horse.

I think everybody who is a filmmaker today has to respond to what their own values are, their own feelings. [Martin] In the couple minutes that we have left, what are you each of you working now? Hiro, are you working on a project right now? [Narita] Well, I'm here at the Hawaii International Film Festival. I don't have any, you know, project at the moment. Well, in this business, you know, there are so many talks. And like right now I have maybe three possibilities. I can't count on any of them until I actually have the camera roll. So I don't have any particular project that I can tell you. [Martin] Okay. You're looking for work, though. If somebody wants to hire Hiro as a cinematographer. [Narita, laughs] In a way, yes. [Martin] Carroll, how about you? Do you have any projects that you're working on now that we can be seeing in the next couple years? [Ballard] Yeah, I have several things that floated on the waters and it's the same deal. I mean, a lot of deals just don't get made, a lot of things don't

happen. It's not a reality until we are out there cranking and even then it's not necessarily reality. [Martin] It's difficult to put a deal together. [Ballard] So I have several deals that I am presently nurturing. Whether they will actually sprout and grow into anything, I don't know. [Martin] How long does it normally take, say, a director, producer, or what have you, from an idea concept to put a deal together until the picture is actually made? Not counting those that get canceled, of course. [Ballard] I'd say the average time for that is two or three years, sometimes a lot more. "Never Cry Wolf" was in one stage or another for over a period of about 12 years. I wasn't involved with it for that long but it was, you know...people were trying to make it into a movie for that long. [Martin] How long did it take you... You did, what, five cuts on that? [Ballard] Yeah, well, yes we had five, six previews, of which five were total disasters, and then we just had to go back in the

editing room and try to make more sense out of it. We shot a million feet of film. A million feet of film, if you wanted to go in a projection room to look at it, it would take you eight hours a day, five days a week. It'd take you six weeks just to look at it. So, you know, we actually shot about a six and a half hour movie because I never thought the script was totally right and I just kept shooting things. [Martin] But you're happy with the film now? [Ballard] And, in fact, we ended up writing the movie in the cutting room. [Martin] And you're happy with the film now? [Ballard] Well, I don't know. [Martin] Never happy? [Ballard] Well, I don't have anymore gas for it, really. [Martin] Our guests today on Spectrum have been Carol Ballard, the director of Never Cry Wolf, and Hiro Narita, the cinematographer. Thank you both for being with us on Spectrum and good luck. We'll be looking forward to more of your fine product and your talents. And thank you for joining us on Spectrum today and hope that you enjoyed our conversation. You take care of yourself now. Aloha. [Interstitial music] [Director interrupts interstitial music] Stand by for a new program.

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[Voiceover 2] Spectrum was funded in part by a grant from the people of Chevron in Hawaii snd by the Hawaii State Foundation on Culture and the Arts.