Dialog; Hawaiian Voices on the Bishop Estate

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electric company people with a powerful commitment Hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey Well you can hardly pick up a newspaper or turn on a radio or television set these days without hearing a story or an opinion about the Comic - kommehameha School's Bishop Estate and you're going to hear more about it tonight on dialogue as it is our main topic of conversation our telephone lines are now open the number to call

is 973 1 000 if you would like to ask a question of our guests or express your own opinion. I'm Lynn Waters and I want to thank you for joining us tonight and thank the good folks joining me in the studio and they are Euclant Illouli who is an attorney and past president and founding member of the Native Hawaiian Bar Association. Her 20 years in private practice have included plaintiff law, real property, business, family, and environmental matters and she is a former planning commissioner, a former police commissioner and has competed in the Molokai Ikanu race and the King Kamehameha Hula competition. Daviana McGregor happens to be the only non attorney on our group tonight but she is a well -known and effective advocate on Hawaiian issues. She is an associate professor of ethnic studies at the University of Hawaii and is the spokesperson for the Protect Kaholavi Ohana and Fund. She has served on the Sovereignty Elections Council and is a published author of articles and books on traditional Hawaiian customs, beliefs, and practices. Pocca Lainui, known also to many, is Hayden

Burgess, is director of the Institute for the Advancement of Hawaiian Affairs and president of the Pacific and Asia Council of Indigenous Peoples. He is a former trustee of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, a member of the Sovereignty Elections Council, and also served as vice president of the World Council of Indigenous Peoples. And Alan Ho is also an attorney who served in the Army in Vietnam. His practice has covered civil, regulatory, and government law. He was a hearings officer before the Hawaiian Homes Commission and a court -appointed master for the Lunolilo Trust. He is also served on the State Land Use Commission, the State Ethics Commission, and the Hawaiian Sovereignty Elections Council. Welcome to all of you and thank you for giving up some of your Friday evening to be with us. We will be talking about the Kamehameha Schools Bishop of State. And once again, we are live until 9 o 'clock tonight. So please give us a call if you have a question or a comment for our guests. The number once again is 9731 ,000. And for those of you watching on the Neighbor Islands, remember you can call us collect at the same number. Waiting to take your calls at 9731 ,000 are the Friends of Rebecca Troyer

and our friends from Hawaiian Electric Company. Our sign language interpreter for dialogue tonight is Loretta McDonald. And let's start out first just to bring our viewers up to date, Alan. If you could encapsulate for us the development today with regard to this issue. I think one is we've all come to experience in terms of the legal process in our form of our society today. We no longer have trial by surprise. So I think it was not a great surprise for those people who are familiar with the process that at today's hearing before Judge Hurai, the master made a representation that the master and the trustees had reached an agreement on his recommendations that were pending before the court. And it's my understanding that either 20 out of 21 of his recommendations, the trustees have agreed to comply with and I believe within a couple of weeks they're supposed to come back and give the judge the specifics on how they intend to comply and the timetable for compliance. There was a little bit of surprise around the table tonight earlier

when you updated our guests particularly from Euclin about them reaching a compromise. Yeah, I hadn't listened to the news. What's your reaction? It's the language of the master's report is structured as being instructions basically or requests for instructions from the court to the to the Bishop of State that they either adopt certain procedures or or interpret their commission structure. How they present their material in terms of the financial material to the public. So if they didn't agree to it, they'd be fools actually. I can't imagine. He wasn't saying so and so step down or so and so pay a surcharge. Nothing like that is the most polite thing you could think of. Now have have all of you have any of you read the master's report? Alan, have you read

it? Just bits and pieces. Bits and pieces, Daviana? Yeah, just no. Payton. Bits and pieces. Bits and pieces. Have a year and you've got your post. It's also got my post. Let's just go around the table and let our viewers know what each one of you from your own perspective feels is important to communicate on this issue. Daviana, I'll start with you. Well, I'm an educator and for me the what is most important is the education of our children at the B -4 Native Hawaiians as was the intention of the princess when she established the schools. My daughter received an excellent education. There have been a lot of scholarships given to students from community schools and not from community schools. I am a recipient of the not pokey e -scholarship award. The scholarship has increased from three million to 20 million in the last seven years and it's reflected at University of Hawaii where the amount of students, Hawaiian students at University has increased from 9 % to 12%.

So there's a lot of accomplishments that the school has made in the last 10 years, 20 years. It's an excellent education. The teachers are extremely dedicated and extremely talented and experts. They give 110 % to the students as far as I could tell and they have no kind of protection. As a faculty member at the University of Hawaii, I have tenure. These teachers don't have tenure. They have a lot of issues of concern. They have no protection no way to articulate it and I'm really hoping that Judge Jim's report will give the teachers the kind of support that they need and the kind of security and stability that is what is deserved because of what outstanding educators they are at the schools. So as we continue to look at the issues surrounding the management of the schools, I'm really concerned that it not draw

out those kinds of concerns that not a newcomers who are trying to get the lands to be dispersed at low release rents and we're all part of that least movement that they not come now and attempt to dismantle the schools and its mission to provide education for native Hawaiians and my concern is not expand and the state not states a role not be one to interfere to open it up wide to threaten that trust across the table. You're taking notes I see. What would you like to say at the beginning of this program? Well first of all I've heard a lot of suggested changes to the trust itself and I think people don't appreciate the sanctity of a will. So I've heard one proposal that judges of the Supreme Court should not be making an appointment. I've heard other proposals about management of the school should be changed and all these different things. But why

should we change the princesses will? Because at the present time it may not be popular with some group of people and what are the standards by which we are willing to reach into history and tell someone all of these lands that you have is no good anymore we're going to come in and we're going to make changes. I've heard a lot of criticism about the way the trust has been set up. I have not heard any sufficient alternative to how we're going to make the appointments if not by the Supreme Court. Is it going to be the office of Hawaiian Affairs or has Ben Gayatano going to make the appointment or is it going to be five people who decide to write letters to the editors if not through the trustee or through the Supreme Court as suggested by the person who wrote the will then who is to create themselves as a one to dictate how to appoint. So what I'm saying is that while we can be critical of what is happening within the Bishop Estate you know what is the other alternative and doesn't seem to be anyone suggesting valid alternatives. I think also

if we move away from the details of management investment and the risk but we look at now an interesting comment on the character of people who are involved and it's not only the trustees although we oftentimes focus on the trustees but what about the Attorney General's character in terms of the way she conducts an investigation and it seems that she has a direct line to the advertiser every time she decides a one or another thing boom immediately you see it in the newspapers and is this the way to conduct an investigation. Pat Yim takes a very different approach very quiet in fact they're screaming about the fact that he filed a sealed report and everyone's jumping on Pat Yim now to me if you're going to conduct an investigation and you're going to give the parties an opportunity to look at the report to take their positions and then go to court and let the court decide what should be exposed or not exposed it was a proper position to have taken. I'm hearing your say at least in the first part of your comments let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Can we separate the performance of these trustees from the the whole will how the estate was set up the process of the appointment etc etc is that correct. So it's basically protecting the sanctity of one's will and it's not only because it's Bernice Power he bishop but anyone's will you know the expectation that the society gives to the sanctity of the development of a will you break it only when it violates public policy or this specific law that that changes in this case it doesn't violate public policy it doesn't violate any specific law they may have been one violation with regards to I forget what the details were but why should we change a standard of altering a will just for this Hawaiian trust as has been suggested by too many people. Let's give Alan a chance to throw his two cents in here. I think for me what is most important is my connection as a native Hawaiian to what this institution represents the legacy that has transcended

time over to millennia to what it is today we cannot forget that this is one of only a handful of truly Hawaiian institutions. This institution was born not out of some Western concept of trust or education but out of a ancient Hawaiian custom and practice and a cultural tradition of the elite providing for their people. Princess Power he was very clear about that and my concern now is we seem to be exposed again to another wave of missionaries who are now standing on our shores demanding a piece of what they feel they're entitled to they're not entitled to it. Now the thing that bothers me about the controversy is it has developed over the past almost a year now is that all of the players all of the native Hawaiian players in this controversy they're all good

people they all I think are sincere in their beliefs including the trustees to not poor organization. Even the attorneys and the people in the courts of Hawaiian ancestry they're very concerned about what is happening and I think to a person the most important aspect is preserving this Hawaiian legacy and the saddest thing I think is perhaps the trustees missed an opportunity to conduct themselves in a Hawaiian tradition to resolve this what really started out is somewhat of a minor problem we all got caught up in trying to dissect this controversy in our Western ways and here we are today on the verge of you know maybe something that we just don't want to live with. Want to remind our viewers that we are live we are talking about the Kamehameha schools Bishop of State if you have a question or a comment the number to call us is 9731000 you clean your

reaction to the comments thus far well my son went to Kamehameha schools and so I'm very grateful because because they helped educate him and I think I know Daviana and Alan also had a child there although we didn't go ourselves but it's it's uncomfortable I think also with our Hawaiian way is that you don't take too much and I think there's been a bit too much taking there and we know that and you're referring to the trustees and to some of the waste my my son would come back and go mom there's home -roomfuls of computers that nobody's using or I can go up and and make something in the shop and they have all this lumber I mean and how you explain because you don't do that at home I don't have stuff I'm not using sitting around my house you know

he's getting a message of abundance that is not the same as what we have at home in so you know there was there was too much and also we need to self -regulate I mean I think Daviana knows this these are our concepts of our custom that we probably as Hawaiian people need to start saying look why are why are outsiders having to come we need to have the will to stop it you know there should be I mean the the Beatty Dawson's group at least it's a Hawaiian group and we need to all sit around and maybe just say we have to take the lead in this we can't allow us to not self -regulate and that means you know the the worst thing is to just it came out of a conquest Kamehameh pushed a bunch of people over the Polly and killed uncles and cousins to get this land and that's the process and so you know we shouldn't back off from from these big

changes and because that's part of what it's all about and and if we need to go and you know do that it should come from us it shouldn't be going to others and that's what makes me feel uncomfortable because we don't set any example at all for these kids about having some will to say this is it I'm ashamed I'm embarrassed what do we stand for and it's not going to go on anymore I've known I've had people come to me employees students there've been problems up there for years as a lawyer it all trickles down and we all sat around and just don't do anything because you're grateful because you're afraid because it's it's not you know it's the shadow and yet the reason I think that has become the controversy that it has is because the Hawaiian groups are the ones that are doing the challenging this time around right correct well that's that's the explanation the attorney general uses and you disagree I disagree really I think one

it's become a controversy because it's been politically expedient for the administration to make it into a controversy okay the Hawaiian institutions and their beneficiaries from almost from day one including the Lunar Lilo Trust beneficiaries have clamored at the doorstep of the trustees have clamored at the doorstep of government to help them address some very critical issues in this instance it became politically expedient to now say the Native Hawaiian beneficiaries are now asking us for assistance to go in and pull the rug out from the Native Hawaiian trustees and I don't buy it for me I think one the way in which the attorney general's office is conducting their so -called investigation clearly indicates that they don't have quote the interests of the beneficiaries or the interests of the

estate they are looking for other reasons and other excuses to promote their specific agenda anybody agree or disagree with that I have to agree I find the attorney general's office very manipulative and the arguments that should be raising courts are raising the newspapers they seem to be flushing it all out in the newspapers and then they go to court and they take a smashing court for the question of a look at learning Lindsay's two attorneys it's obvious people can see that of course she should have two attorneys perhaps more when attorney general's office have all of their attorneys lined up ready to ask her questions so instead of arguing in court the age his office explains or not explains proclaims that they're going to go to court and they're going to basically fix her and so you have this big flare -up outside the end result is the agree that she has she has a right to attorneys but of course only one should speak at a certain time and and it's it's a track record so the only appreciation I

can have of it is that it's politically motivated whether it's coming from Ben Caetano or not I don't know because Ben himself would not support the attorney general with regards to that particular issue but if you look back at what the state has been trying to do with Bishop estate all along from the fourth sale of the lands and and you know this whole controversy this is a primary way of getting back at them and so I as I said earlier if you look at what is happening here as a measure of the character of the parties involved to me the one who gets a minus grade at this point is attorney general's office the trustees do do not have flying colors but their major fault is their failure to communicate especially with the beneficiaries and that's the how do you explain that they lost 70 million dollars in stock losses in this accounting period and they get a 1 .7 % rate of return on their real estate and they spend 42 % on the school and the rest goes to to their own overhead and they

each got a million dollars you know I sit here and I go me nobody none of that group could get a million bucks in the outside world they couldn't they they don't know but who was it that exposed that it wasn't the attorney general she couldn't get the information it was the master right and the way that the that the the trust is set up and as it's over seen by the court there are mechanisms to critique the estate but the estate is that's all I know so the master did it just like the master did it in the 85th report back in the 70s there are internal mechanisms to do this it's not the first time that the alumni has gone against the school and called upon the courts to to set up a special investigating committee back in 1916 the alumni criticized the president and the principal for having too much power the faculty not having input into the process of educating the students the court set up a special investigating committee the alumni attempted to point their

own trustee through the circuit court the the federal court of appeals overturned it in 1980 I don't disagree you know this this happens all the time but there are internal mechanism set up to correct it and I don't like the attorney general coming in at this point because I think that the motive is really being behind it is is this new group of people who've moved to the islands we have no appreciation of our Hawaiian culture who are looking at this large trust as something that's a relic out of the feudal ages and they would like to dismantle it and it's a very dangerous period for us as Hawaiians and it won't just be the Bishop estate trust they're going to go after the Lunar little trust the Queen Emma trust the Queen Lee O 'Cloney trust and I think that what you said originally is we shouldn't look to the outsiders to come in we should we need to have our own internal mechanisms to fix it and there are already mechanisms we need to know whether wrong is wrong see I

think with the trustees there's something wrong the accounting process in the masters evaluation is a very sterile process it's by the numbers it's like what a CPA would do so I think in terms of the information that's been that's been coming out with regard to their economic performance it's not something that appeared magically as a result of this particular master I think the interesting thing for me is that in 1995 the master I mean I'm sorry the the attorney general's office Marjorie Bronstor along with the deputy who's on this case at this time and the attorney for the trustees and turned into a stipulation an exhaustive stipulation on the requirements on how these accountings should be done now during this during the current controversy I have not heard anyone specifically point to any breaches or violations of what they reached and agreed to which is an exhaustive list in 1995 so obviously what they're complaining about is additional

issues or additional items which they would now like to become part of the review process they're not in violation actually did bring that up that they had failed to comply with these very guidelines that had been agreed to but see that that issue that process that issue is part of the master's review process the master doesn't say okay I'm gonna stand behind the corner and see if they comply with all these it's it's a give and take process he's required under his process to sit down with them and say okay with regard to these specific items what is your response you just can't say okay now we're gonna have we're gonna play this little game now you show me what you want to show me and then after you've left the table then I'll submit my report and criticize you because you fail to comply or fail to meet the requirement of one of these other issues and for that I think that's not right I'm gonna jump in here because I'm gonna get into trouble if I don't start asking for your questions we've had several calls here although this is

very interesting a couple of comments state judges are appointed there's a conflict of interest when they are overseeing the estate and this viewers suggest that trustees be selected by the beneficiaries in a vote similar to how oha trustees are voted into office any response to that that idea well I think when the first the first question with regard to the conflict of interest of state judges and that's clear nobody disagrees with that because I think in terms of the particular as our current Supreme Court all recognize the fact that they can no longer involve themselves in any legal case or legal issue involving the trustees and so that's clear there's no no debate over that the second one I think is very interesting because some of the organizations that I'm involved with view that as perhaps a legitimate alternative if you will to let the Hawaiian community take control of this process at this point through the only elective body that we have oha that maybe not oha

be responsible for the selection of trustees but oha be responsible to establish a process whereby this issue can be addressed that would still involve changing the will though and because of that I wouldn't support it who is this caller or anyone else to say that she was wrong in how she dispose of her estate and and take a look at the results of these elective process whether it's the office of Hawaiian affairs or the election of the governor or the election of whoever it is are we secure in in this process as really bringing about the best trustees or just the most popular trustees and let me jump in real quick because I would agree with you in terms of the sanctity of the will however in this instance we have to acknowledge and recognize okay that the court that was in sitting in on on probate issues at the time the will was created and the Supreme Court justices sitting at that time are not in no way shape

or form what we have today okay so that the court she made her instructions under the justices that she appointed are in no way the court or the justices that are conducting that process today so that that that is a very real issue but she didn't appoint them as probate judges she appointed them as Supreme Court judges had she appointed them because or she listed specifically because of the powers as probate judges then I can understand that perhaps it should be moved down to the circuit court which is now the probate judges but then you're not going to escape the that same problem why should it be the circuit court judge and who selects a circuit court judge to make the appointment except the Supreme Court doesn't doesn't deal with the master's reports they don't they're not in the know but is that what she made her appointment and what we're trying to do now is second guess over a hundred years later as to why she made that I think she wanted the best possible selectors and I don't think that the Supreme Court is the best possible selectors I would

take the first circuit court judge sitting in probate any day for my money but you're going to remove it from a five member court to a one single person court a number is it now numbers isn't quality they don't conduct hearings the the Supreme Court is this isn't filed in the Supreme Court but Supreme Court can review it but the point is what you are suggesting is that we move it from a five member body to a one person body expert a one person the probate judge is not necessarily an expert they get appointed because they need to fit someone else in that particular position cat yam was probate judge now we have what's her name Colleen here and there's been there's no one has any change every once in a while well I want to put a different spin on it because I think if you're going to start looking at not having it be this this Supreme Court system under the state of Hawaii it opens up the whole question as to the context in which the will was drafted which was it was under the independent kingdom of

Hawaii and if you're going to really look at it did she intend that the Supreme Court justices of a state of Hawaii which is under the US United States of America be the ones to appoint it I don't think so she never really envisioned that Hawaii would never be independent someday I don't think so and so I think if we're going to look at who should appropriately appoint it it should be under the context of a sovereign Hawaiian entity and maybe the Bishop of the State should be the one to set the context for this that is we need to begin to look at all of the lands that are part of Hawaiian lands the Hawaiian national lands and and and give the drive an incentive to set up a sovereign entity which will begin to govern these lands including the lands that are the bequest of our elite and the lands that were stolen by the provisional government and given to the US government the what is called the seated lands and so we need to look at it more in the context of a sovereign Hawaiian entity if we're going to all talk about not having this Supreme Court do it but until it happens what do we do no don't don't let it happen because no until

we established a sovereign Hawaiian entity what do we do well then you have to go with what what the interpretation the will has been otherwise you begin to violate the trust but that's the past decision totally cut to the chief and said this own you know only versus me was wrong they distinguished all that precedent we shouldn't be afraid to really take a look at this trust instrument and acknowledge that we were shoes when we go hunting and carry guns and drive to the end of the road you know it's that same analogy and and what we really want to do is survive and we kind of all have an understanding of the fact that these lands are held in for the benefit of the people of the Hawaiian people and how is that going to come come about I'm going to jump in here because we're halfway through the show believe it or not this is a good time for those of us who are here to take a short break but we will be back with more dialogue on many issues surrounding Kamehameha Schools Bishop of the state in one minute so please stay tuned

see it on PBS from the world's most prized treasures the timeless music of yon Saturday at 7 p .m. it is the season for songs and stories they will have music in the holidays it opens up your heart in a way to be able to see this holiday in a different way join author Thomas Moore and his guests plus special appearances by Kathy Matea and

Martin she for the soul of Christmas of Celtic music celebration Tuesday at 10 p .m. Welcome back to the second half of dialogue I'm Lynn Waters and we are talking about the many issues surrounding the Kamehameha Schools Bishop of the state here with me are Alan Ho Daviana McGregor Polkha Lainui and Euclin Alluli and we're going to try to get to as many of your questions as we can the sour rest of the hour but if you have a question please call us the numbers 9731 thousand our phone volunteers are good folks from Hawaiian Electric and the friends of Rebecca Troyer we certainly thank them for coming out to be with us this evening once again if you're watching on a neighbor island you can call us collect the numbers 9731 thousand lots of questions about those salaries how can they be justified what can we do to reduce them are they being earned etc let's just go around briefly comments on the salary issue I don't think you'll find any disagreement that the salaries are excessive how excessive in terms of performance or the requirements

that the trustees actually earn those I you know I couldn't even begin to to speculate but clearly I think one there has to be some agreement that that is a sticking point and I would agree that it is excessive any other additional comments yeah I have an additional comment sir you're going to change the law change it for everyone but don't pick on the bishop and stake camel estate trustees made the same amount nobody squawks about them they're not charred about well but they're still making the same amount but the earning far less than the the total income is far less the losses you pick up a salary based on the income that's what the law states the state government then comes in and tells bishop estate what do you like it or not you sell these lands and as a result of the sale of these lands which the estate trustees would all the way up to the US Supreme Court and what as a result of the sale of these lands their income expands now the IRS comes in and says you cannot

give back more than 50 % of your salary and if you do you get taxed on the excess over 50 % bishop estate trustees according to bishop estate at least says that over the last few years an average of 60 % of the income has been turned back they have refused that those additional salaries so I'm saying if the legislature or if Ben Cayetano or others are so hot and heavy about the salary then change the law but change it for everyone not just the trustees that's a given that's a given but you know they've been pumping up there what they say they calculate their commissions on and that was the the subject of a number of recommendations so they're they're saying yeah we're waiting all of this but then you read the master's report and they're going these guys actually calculated in their commissions the interest paid back to them by the loans they made to their own subsidiaries and if they had merged them all together that's not an income event but they were calculating their commissions see it's easy to full people

when you when you structure how you calculate your commissions the play is all in the bookkeeping and so here the master goes and says plus you lost 33 million in 1994 but you didn't you didn't carry it as a loss to debit out of your gross revenues you cannot accept the master's report as all true the bishop estate says the master's report have miscalculated they're grossly understating what is appropriate and they're only taking the net loss they are not taking the the net gain or loss and equating what the total was so that the end result is that there was no loss in terms of their profits at the end of the year what i'm saying is let's be fair with everyone it's what we need to do is at least set some common standards rather than you and i coming to our personal standard as to what is appropriate let's reach some legal standards by which they will be measured as everyone else should be measured and let's apply it fairly that's all i'm saying but don't start picking on them

because they are making a lot of money okay moving along as we can probably talk about the salaries for the rest of the program this comment from a concern Hawaiian in the Waianai area who's tried to get his children into Kamehameha trustee should be appointed by native Hawaiians native Hawaiians should vote on how to resolve this the state has done the same to Hawaiians and Hawaiians get nowhere pretty soon we're not going to have bishop estate and then what which i think alludes to comments that you made earlier daviana okay this caller says enough talk about the supreme court let's talk about the kids and the problems at kamehameha schools several calls about why no schools on the neighbor islands why doesn't bishop estate have schools on all islands ohana is important to the Hawaiian people but having a school only on awahu bishop estate forces bright children on neighbor islands to leave their homes and their families to be educated response well i i think one that kind of brings it uh... the the topic into focus is this really an issue of education or is this really the issue of trying to break up the last

remaining largest private landowner in the state now all the critics that i've heard focus on breaking up the largest landowner in the state because of the impact bishop estate and its vast holdings has on our economy that's no good in our present day uh environment therefore we need to reassess and we need to break them up i think one on the educational issue uh... the issue that seems to be of greatest concern to the Hawaiian community is bishop estate has been making in in recent years making a sincere effort from what i see to expand its educational programs um... if you want to measure bishop estate's performance in terms of educational achievements what do you measure them what do you measure them against do you measure that measure them against the DOE now and that's that's i mean for me that's a serious charge and that's a joke for anyone to say and criticize ksbs educational program on the one hand justify how deep uh... the

department of education has failed miserably the Hawaiian community throughout the state and suddenly now it has become ksbs responsibility to educate all Hawaiian people i don't buy that from an educator's perspective daviana your thoughts that's how i open with i think um... the schools are excellent the faculty are excellent the staff are excellent the faculty have deep concerns you know because i i share you know alan and polka's and concerns raised about this is an attempt to break up the largest state but as i went around and talked to people who are graduates who are who are working at the schools who are staff it's like there are really deep serious problems here deep -rooted problems that we need to be addressed but the mechanism is not the media and i think i'm hoping that judgy ms report addresses these concerns and makes recommendations that the trustees will follow um... i am concerned that the estate trustees uh... dismantled the extension education programs a lot of those programs came about because in

1975 when there was a lot of concern by the Hawaiian community about the the lack of reach to the broad grassroots of the Hawaiian communities because the school is only educating about one percent of the Hawaiian children um... that the the state made changes in reforms to develop extension education programs to provide that outreach to the broader Hawaiian community they went on the lottery system instead of the merit system at the lower educational levels and uh... initiated another other programs in partnership with the DOE to support Hawaiian children in all of the schools and all of the islands and now this set of trustees have reversed that and it's been detrimental to a lot of the Hawaiian communities i know that when they they close the school calvin new academy on mullicae people were really really devastated and because that was the one thing that the state had done for the you know the broader community on mullicae it was it was a shame that they closed that school so um... you know the the trustees have really been

um... you know they want to earn those salaries they have to set a standard they have to be accountable they have to listen to what the community is saying i don't know if they realize that that's what the community had demanded back in 75 it was addressed it it began to get a lot of support and outreach to the communities and and they have enough resources to expand to the neighbor islands without having to dismantle those programs want to point out also for the uh... viewers in information that none of the panelists tonight is a graduate of kamehame schools correct that's not one including me um... sure the schools i i see first of all they should be a test to get into the school and only those who fail the test should qualify because those who pass will succeed no matter what school they go to secondly i believe that there should be a policy of returning these students back into the communities what we are finding now is kamehame schools are going through our communities they're raping our communities of the best and the brightest of our Hawaiian models and after they take take them up to

the heights how often do they come back and work back into the communities our kids in wainai and nana kule and all these other places need examples of bright Hawaiian students and kamehame should be looking at that rather than simply taking the best and trying to get them the the highest education which is a very individualistic way while the Hawaiian need is a community need to elevate all native Hawaiians it's a materialistic way see they are teaching the lesson of materialism which is you get your PhD and you get your job on the mainland and don't turn back and i'll collect my one million dollar salary and do cold ventures with all my business associates and that's how can those children learn to reduce their economic expectations to go back and serve and be with their people who are poor and impoverished and landless if the message they're getting starts

at the top with greedy people it's it's terrible it's so materialistic and that's what we're getting the lesson of materialism and it starts with that institution let's take care of some housekeeping questions here lots of basic questions from viewers are the trustees native Hawaiians the sitting trustees are this is apparently the first time that all the trustees are part Hawaiian but that's not a requirement that's not historically no but i think the Hawaiian community as a result of i think the 1995 controversy the 1975 controversy the Hawaiian community has made that a requirement the 753 of the trustees have been Hawaiian that's all the Supreme Court claims that they are looking for the best throughout the world and it need not be Native Hawaiian but the result has been they have appointed Native Hawaiians did the princesses will say quote children of Hawai 'i or all children many children cannot get into Kamehameha schools exactly who

is the beneficiary specifically is is it for kids of Hawai 'i or kids with Hawaiian blood it's Hawaiians and you how you you cannot just be bound to the language of that will it wasn't even her first language she was a Native Hawaiian speaker this is an English document she had an eighth grade education and was brought up by missionaries and married a a banker from America so you look at where that land came from and i it came from our lea and there's no question it's not and it's a non -issue yeah the context of the time the will and the legacy was created under the kingdom of Hawaii and i think you would have absolutely no arguments from anyone here tonight if we had a sovereign Hawaiian nation and then we would say yeah it should be part of the Hawaiian pace for people her people right i mean it was clear in her will it says for her people right does she say a preference to a Native Hawaiian? preference to Native Hawaiians for the children and then preference for Native

Hawaiians and then even her husband after the princess had passed away gave a speech at the founder's day because the administrators were then saying oh they're going to allow non -Hawaiians to come in too right that was their interpretation so the husband comes and gives a special speech at founder's day to say no the when she said the preference for Hawaiians she meant you take Hawaiians as long as there are Hawaiians who want to come to school and he clarified it very clearly a no -answering because they thought we're all going to die out exactly and there wouldn't be any Hawaiians but see and so when you look at all of the where these lands came from the context of the times and then subsequent explanations by her husband there's no question and i this could go up to the US Supreme Court and i have no concerns this will always be for Hawaiians and that's non -issue this question goes back to something that you two talked about earlier the difference between Bishop Estate and Campbell Estate with the the salary issue this caller says why doesn't Bishop Estate just pay their taxes like

everybody else and that will solve their problems i think they're getting towards why doesn't Bishop Estate become a for -profit private charitable endeavor which would remove them from the governmental oversight correct the contact of the Bishop Estate trustees is not the Bishop Estate it's not the trust that it is their conduct that violates the internal revenue code that jeopardizes the tax exempt status the fact that they coventured is against the rules the you know some of their accounting procedures the the this thing called UBTI which is unrelated business UBI unrelated business income they're playing fast and loose and they could just be conservative just do it the normal way you know and but but if i think it will all work itself out the tax thing is another is another baloney deal i it is you know the Bishop Estate is not a neo -fight organization they've been in communication with irs they are continually in communication

with irs get an opinions before taking any action they are not going to be uh... what is that jeopardizing the tax status now as to that particular question if we're going to remove Bishop Estate as uh... a charitable organization let's do it for every school let's do it for punal let's do it for every church let's do it for everyone else i'm saying just be fair they are an educational institution to the extent that they have unrelated business income tax them but otherwise treat them treat them fairly like anyone else this caller says if Bishop Estate has so much money for the school why does kamehameha have the worst track team since nineteen fifty god forgot how to run fast excess food that uh... sister was talking about that i don't know i have beautiful food that they have a little food team this caller this caller wants to know uh... that's true uh... trusty stender was quoted in the newspaper is calling trusty lindsey did you folks read that

that section anybody see that part the caller wants to know how does that serve the interest of a hawaiian people it's embarrassing i guess you have to ask us tinder yeah it doesn't serve anybody's interest not even if you're not if i hold you're not a hawaiian i think that the papers pointed out the other day that uh... even loculani lindsey when she was appointed was uh... highly recommended and had the full support of the native Hawaiian community so these people are not individuals who have just kind of like come out of nowhere uh... they're they're they're established well uh... acknowledged as experts in their particular field and you know unfortunately we're we have this little uh... uh... predicate right now well yeah but there's serious problems in their house better standards set if they want to continue in their position they are not following the standards that are appropriate for a Hawaiian institution of education uh... that you know is excellent and you know is one of the best uh... high

schools in the whole u .s. in the whole world really and they're not they're not functioning appropriately yeah i think one uh... if they all had to do it over again uh... they would definitely do it differently they would have been no one's having fun i'm sure of that no one's having fun couple of comments once more the salary issue the issue then we will leave that trusty should get commissions after subtracting any losses they incur lands are the basis of the trust and the land appreciated by itself they should not get any commissions on land sold to benefit trustees they are stealing last comment on uh... salary issue comment um... on something that uh... alan and polka said i think that you two gentlemen need to understand the investigation of mismanagement of funds by bishop estate is not a sovereignty or hawaiian blood issue but is a mismanagement of state and federal funds that requires the investigation of the third party not exactly accurate but would you like to respond obviously that caller i think it's has some legitimate concerns i i i would first off i guess say

that i'm not uh... privy to exactly what federal and state funds are so called being investigated uh... in terms of mismanagement maybe the caller has information he could have shared with us but i don't buy that argument comment from you polka okay um... let's see it seems there has been a breach of fiduciary duties how can we get the trustees changed we've talked a lot about changing the process of selection but is there a mechanism for changing the existing trustees petition for removal but i don't think that the petition for the removal is just uh... anyone can file such a petition the real test is have they violated the law or have the uh... breached uh... particular duty and that has not been shown at the present time because nobody's filed for i think i think that's probably one of the issues that um... napois attempting to address declare fire has to ask the court to specificity specifically designate individuals as beneficiaries

right now arguably the legal beneficiary of commandeous estimate bishop estate is commandeous schools but trustee can file to have another trustee removed right but i think in terms of the realist the realistic uh... reality of that happening i i think one would would come after come after and what's he talk of bookie and uh... hung wall ching had it out with each other had it up and up but but the standards are nothing changed though yeah the standards for removal of trustee is violation of law or abuse of discretion that's i think if the court would issue an order it's a breach of a fiduciary duty and they have all these prudent investor standards i i don't think so it's not uh... breach of fiduciary duty by based on well that's why the abuse of discretion is the prudent investors standard or the management of the standard yeah but but you have to meet those standards it's not just throwing out fiduciary duty and then you create

in your own self what the fiduciary duty is supposed to be you have to follow some legal standards and i mean they they other trustees have petition to my body trustees and i've been rich it's coming back to uh... your your your could uh... example of camel estate uh... having done some work uh... in that arena one of the things that perhaps uh... could be addressed to uh... to resolve some of these issues is to have the court designate a guardian ed light on for all the minor beneficiaries who are students at the school uh... and that would definitely uh... open up uh... the standing question and give uh... the minor students who are everyone seems to agree are the real or the intended business beneficiaries standing to challenge uh... actions uh... of the trusty or or conduct of of the trust this caller says we don't want to find this card because i want to do folks to respond to it uh... these people seem to

all be on the same side they can't see past the fact that they are hawaiian don't they realize the reason this whole thing started was because the hawaiian teachers and students complained i don't think that i don't think that's an issue we you know that's a given um... the as daviana says the students and the teachers had some legitimate complaints to present and i think the trustees missed an opportunity to resolve those issues at an early stage uh... it became politically expedient to involve others and so here we are yeah i mean this is an issue for the schools to to take on and to resolve as a school you know if it was a problem meeting the teachers at ponoho and the administration board at ponoho with the newspapers get involved and call for the attorney general to investigate it i do i doubt it uh... but i think the problem is that it's gotten mixed up on the other side with some of the concerns that were raised by those who wrote the letter of concern uh... regarding the the fiduciary side of it in the land

management side and there's always been that dual aspect of bishop estate the land management side and it's charitable trust obligations to educate the native hawaiians and it has been an issue of concern for native hawaiians before i mean as a native hawaiian i i joined the effort to uh... protest the appointment of mati takabuki and call for all the wine trustees to be appointed i was supportive of the effort to reform the schools to do it you know expand it outreach to the communities and set up the extension education programs but i do that responsibly as a hawaiian because i'm concerned about the education of all of our children in throughout the islands and not because i think this is a this trust should be dismantled because it's uh... something that exists from a futile period and it's uh... you know if it is inappropriate at this time i know i i really do disagree and very concerned that newcomers are attempting to dismantle this legacy for the native hawaiian people this caller wants to know why can't we have pro bono trustees meaning

people of qualification who work for no money at all i agree i think it's polka says you know if if if they're pro bono then all trustees should be pro bono if it's you know good for the goose then you know the rest of the story in charitable trustees there are a lot of charitable trustees that serve without compensation uh... yeah i don't disagree with that be yeah this caller wants to know is the will that daviana you quoted extensively from from or talked about is the will published or where can somebody obtain a copy of the will princess brinney's poor he bishops will the state i think has been passing it out more recently yeah i've had a copy from the archives of the school but if you have access to put the internet i think randy roth's web page has it all there yeah call randy roth and sure he'll give you uh... his web page but there's an archive at the school and they have all of the the historical documents okay last comment because we're almost out of time a native american caller the

daughter goes to kamehameha schools isn't it a form of institutional racism that attorney general marjorie broadster is leading the charge against kamehameha schools bishop estate that's a no -brainer that's reaffirmation of what we've been saying i think i don't know anything further you would like to say on that topic i think you said okay well we are out of time believe it or not i know we could go on uh... at length on this issue it's been a very interesting program uh... but i would certainly like to thank our guests who have been here this evening davie on a magreger alan whole polka linoe and you can eluli and also course to our phone operators uh... for taking time to volunteer on dialogue and of course to you for watching i do want to know want you to know that we apologize if we didn't get to your question or comment but if you would like to send them in for next week show our email address is dialogue at k -e -t dot p -b -s dot org and my colleague dan boyland will be here with another dialogue on this very

same topic and his guess will be be the doeson tony lee roi benham and some other folks so if you're interested in continuing the discussion and hearing what they have to say or want to share your opinion please join them and i will let you know that our guest tonight will all receive copies of the questions that you sent in thanks for watching you dialogue is brought to you by

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