Dialog; An Opposing View: On the Bishop Estate

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hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey general. Finding the origin of the controversy may be difficult, but the protests marched by Nippua Ake Ali -e -Pawahi last spring certainly marked a milestone in the development of the debate. Good evening and welcome to Dialog. My name is Dan Boyland. Before beginning tonight's Dialog, I need to take this opportunity to clear up some misinformation that has been reported regarding the setting up and selection of participants for tonight's program. Dialog is a news and public affairs program which provides an open forum for discussion and viewer participation on issues which affect all of us in Hawaii. It is always the objective of this program to provide opportunities for all sides of an issue to be presented.

Tonight's show, which focuses on the Bishop's State controversy that has been in the headlines for many months, features representatives from several groups who have been critical of the Bishop's State Trustees. Dialog has made repeated attempts. I assure you, over the past six months, to have the Trustees also appear on this show to provide information on their position. All requests and invitations to this point at least to participate were decline. Yesterday, Trustee Locollani -Linsey's public relations advisor called Dialog's producer and requested that tonight's programming format be changed in that Trustee Lindsay either be given her own one -hour program to state reviews after tonight's show or that this evening's dialogue be divided into two 30 -minute segments. With Trustee Lindsay being the featured guest in the second half of the show, we decline this, since this would be a major departure from Dialog's program format and because Dialog is meant to be a forum for

discussion by more than just one party. That's what Dialog means. Instead, Trustee Lindsay was invited to participate in tonight's program and invitations were also extended to Trustees Richard Wong and Henry Peters. Wong was unable to participate due to a previous commitment and Peters is out of town. Trustee Lindsay, through her spokesperson, decided it would not be in her interest to participate. Dialog will continue in its efforts to present all sides of the Bishop's State controversy and hopes the trustees will accept our invitation to appear on Dialog at a future date to present their position and address community concerns and questions regarding the Kamehameha Schools Bishop's State trust. We have with us tonight several critics of the Bishop's State trustees who are willing to detail their brief, if you will, against the Bishop's State. Mahalani Kamau is no stranger to Dialog. She is the executive director of the Native Hawaiian Legal Corporation, a non -profit public interest law firm. That represents Hawaiians in cases relating

to land and need natural resource entitlements. Ms. Kamau is a graduate of the Kamehameha Schools for Girls and the University of Hawaii. Roy Benham is a 1941 graduate of the Kamehameha School for Boys. That makes you old, Roy. It is the president of the Oahu region of the Kamehameha Schools Alumni Association. He is also a director of Nippua Akealii Pawahi and has served one term as an elected trustee of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. He is a retired federal employee and currently is a Capuna with the Department of Education's Hawaiian Studies Program. Tony Lee is a 1959 graduate of the Kamehameha School for Girls and she is the president of Nippua Akealii Pawahi. By the end of the program, I'll have the pronunciation down perfectly. She is employed by the federal government and among her many affiliations is second vice president of the Association of Hawaiian Civic Clubs, a member of the Kamehameha Commission, and chairperson of the Kamehameha celebration, Floral Parade.

A University of Hawaii trained lawyer, Bede Kahnahale Dawson is the chief executive officer in general counsel of Dawson International and Dawson Environmental Services. Before assuming her current position, Ms. Dawson served as a state attorney general for 14 years. She is the legal counsel for Nippua Akealii Pawahi. What do you want to know about the Bishop of State controversy? Our guests are more than willing to share their knowledge of the issues with you. We urge you to take advantage of them by calling 973 1000 with your questions or comments. Neighbor Island residents may call us collect. The number again, 973 1000. Waiting to answer your calls are students from the Redford High School Interact Club and our sign language interpreter, Isla Reda -McDonald. A reminder that tonight's dialogue is also being simulcast on Hawaii Public Radio, K -I -F -O 1380. Roy Benham, you marched in May with Nippua

between May and December of 1997. A lot is transpired. How has your organization's criticism toward the Bishop of State changed during those six months or what you're asking for? I think what we've done more now is listening more to the teachers and more to the administrators on the campus and we have listened to parents and so they're giving us more problems that they need to be addressed and we are continuing to get more of the alumni involved in these problems to see what they can do to assist in the resolution of them. I think that's we're also very pleased that there are more graduates participating. But haven't you folks already achieved what you were asking for?

I mean the last I read the Bishop of State trustees have given up their parking spaces which as we all know is the symbol of absolute giving up in any organization, aren't you folks satisfied now, Tom? No. No, I'm not. No, I'm afraid not. I think the major difference is that when we started out Nippua had certain very narrow issues that had come to the fore and these were the issues that we put forward. We asked for a very private quiet discussion behind closed doors, no media and we had wanted to bring these initial issues to the trustees' attention and work with them as they worked out the solutions to them. There was a serious situation at the school.

Today we are very different as an organization and I'm sure that the public is. The issues have been brought forward with much credit to the media and with much credit to the fact finder and basically to Colbert Matsumoto who's done a fantastic job in bringing out the facts and the issues. So we're a much more educated group. But just a minute, if I'm not mistaken, the Bishop of State trustees have agreed to 21 master report recommendations. They backed off on just one. They have said that the report of Justice Judge Yim is they've asked it to be opened up. They've said that they're getting rid of the trustee assigned to be involved in the education of the school. I joked about the parking spaces but they're not going to maintain an office. It appears to me they're in full retreat and are accepting everything.

Why aren't you folks satisfied? Aren't you escalating this controversy now? Well, one of the things in the report that they said was that they would give the lead of the campus back to the president and one of the things that we are very strong about that that president be Dr. Michael Chan of which is one of the reasons why we started this whole thing. The other thing it says is that they would like to have another study. How many people do we need to look at us to tell us we have a problem? We know we have a problem. Judge Yim's report, that's what he was for. We've paid lots of money for that report. And between him and Colbert Matsumoto's report and the AG, I think that's enough people to look at. We don't need to spend any more of the princesses money that should be applied to those children and the schools to do that. So we're not in agreement with that either. They've said they'd like to bring the talk stories back. But if you read it

carefully, it says to talk to the staff and the faculty. The talk stories were really for the beneficiaries, the parents and the alum. Now they have cut us out of that. That is important and that's one of the first things we asked to put back. We have not been put back into it. I think the retreat has come in such a great cost. It had to be wrenched from the trustees. In the process of dragging this thing out and forcing ever escalating political pressure, the trustees have in fact caused additional disclosures which require further looking into. I'm rather shocked because I just reviewed the Fact Finder's report and it's shocking. I think

that the two trustees' service and... Excuse me, Mahalani, but the Fact Finder's report has just come out in the second edition of the star bulletin. It was opened up by the courts. Yeah, Judge Patrick Yem released his report today and admittedly it's just out of press. I gave you know a cursory kind of review but it's rather shocking. I mean there are things in there. I thought you know with my familiarity with the principles up on campus that I'd heard everything but there are new things that have come to light that are very, very disturbing and which require further looking into. So what is your position now? What do you folks want? Well, we've gone on record. Very formally to say that all of the trustees at this point should be removed by the court and that in their place there

should be a receiver to be appointed by the court to stabilize the estate, to stabilize the administration of the school. What court? The court appointed these trustees. Indeed and oftentimes when you read previous master's reports and compare them to events that are going on it's almost an embarrassment to the court and could I clarify that for a minute. The court did not appoint these trustees. These trustees were appointed by the individual justices who are acting as individuals. The court itself the Supreme Court did not appoint them and this is a major distinction. They were simply acting as individuals and they did the appointments. Our position is is that there has been a we have in effect for political, politically connected

appointments that have wrought havoc on our school and on the estate and it is it's very much like having someone who is a by analogy say a thief who is caught doing something. You're always very glad when they're when they say okay we won't we won't do this anymore and we're going to we're going to mend our ways and we're going to we're going to be good. We're not going to commit these crimes anymore but that doesn't mean that the crimes should just simply be forgotten. Why you made this point BD what is your position on the removal of the trustees all none or some. The Kamehameha schools alumni and its last general membership meeting approved the statement saying that they wanted four trustees to be removed. The four I'm sorry they wanted four trustees to be to voluntarily

step down until the investigation has been complete. The study has been complete and there is a difference now between that and not poor and those four would be. All of them accept the other standard. All accept the other standards. So so trustees Lindsey Wong Peters and sheriffs. Do you feel the trustees are equally responsible obviously? No. We don't. I'm assuming I don't. By the way I'd like to say this some of your comments I'm going to make tonight are my comments not the associations necessarily. If the association has acted on any of your questions I will so indicate. If not then it's my if you say something foolish roible just assume that I'd like to tell the association to sown you. I'd like to tell you that there is a definite trend right now by many of the graduates with with whom I've spoken and some of them have called me saying that they would like to

have a service remain and this is primarily because he has been a real support to our standard in the past months or so. Now you know we're we were talking about the school primarily the operations of the school that's gotten much broader than that and I like in myself the way I feel beauty is addressing the total thing is more to it we found then since that it's more to it than the school and that the additional thing that regarding the conduct of those trustees regarding a state matters need to be addressed and I think this is what beauty is talking about. I'd like to add something to that that in lieu of what happened today that a statement was made by trustee stender and trustee Jarvis that Napua agrees with their statement

of asking trustee Lindsay to step down and we commend them for doing what they did and being so brave and bold to do that. To Napua we feel that that is the first step to make things penal on the campus to set things right with the students and the faculty and and the administration on campus so we agree with that. What I mean I'm just speculating I don't think trustee Lindsay is going to step down. I don't think any trustees are going to step down. I mean let's just talk human nature this is a million dollar a year job it's one of those things you're not going to let that you're not going to do that. So what what's who can who can make somebody go if the situation is out of control the school is being hurt who can make this decision who can remove them who can put the put the school into receivership what's the how does that work? There

are two two rules or two avenues to to get to that point one is the attorney general can ask the probate court to remove all five trustees and to put a receiver in place to mat to stabilize the the organization both in terms of the trust and in terms of the school or if the attorney general does not make such a request the beneficiaries Napua Akeali Pauahi can make that request to the probate court that's the second avenue that's the second avenue so it's the probate court that can look at the situation and say this estate is in jeopardy this school is in jeopardy the confusion and the allegations have created so much havoc and there are so much

to be worked out that we must remove the the trustees and put someone in there who will bring stability to the organization. Feedy the probate court is is Judge Harai calling her so it would be in her in her jurisdiction to make and well I was going to say today trustees' Jefferson stender held a press conference at that conference they announced that they had written to Trustee Lindsay and asked for her resignation and also indicated that if she did not they would petition the probate court to remove her so that you know that is one route and I'm assuming that other parties in interest would want to intervene. I'm personally and I discuss this with the representatives here I I believe personally that I accept the the representations of Nakumu which are that the in spite of all of the

controversy swirling around the campus that the student the instruction the students all of that is intact and therefore for me just you know looking at it quite you know superficially the ad the receivership seems to me too extreme and so I think you know for me personally the more methodical thing is I accept added on its face the report of Judge Yem unless Locke Lenny can disprove it I think they're ample grounds for her to resign and that is a very positive first step let's take it from there I'm looking I want to find out what the Attorney General discovers what the IRS has to say about other trustees performance and and take it from there but the receivership to me is a little bit extreme. The Supreme Court can appoint the Bishop of State trustees why can't they remove the trustees they can't

well by by extension the will calls for the the justices to appoint the trustees and so that is by under trust law that's who does the appointing at this point in time however by extension a person who has a power of appointment also has a responsibility for that appointment to a certain extent and also possibly arguably has the ability to rescind that appointment and there are many in points of view and individuals who believe that the the justices do have both the obligation as well as the responsibility to look at their appointees and reevaluate them. I want to ask a question occurred to me watching the program last week where four people from the various parts of the Hawaiian

community spoken I got the distinct impression from them that they feel that this has gone outside that new folks have helped to take this outside of the Hawaiian community that this is a Hawaiian issue it should be decided by Hawaiians and that now it's been put into the political realm where Governor Taitano hands it over to Bronster and maybe there's tension with why former governor why hey and and that this is attack if someone asks here isn't this an attack on Hawaiian self -determination Hawaiians are not deciding this now it's good it's heading for the courts are you folks folks who have who have undermined Hawaiian self -determination definitely not in actuality this is a step in the right direction because we Napua Akili Ipoahi was responsible for bringing this to the forefront we are all Hawaiians that's a definite step for self -determination a definite positive towards the movement of sovereignty we Hawaiians are the ones that did it it wasn't the legislature wasn't the tax office it wasn't the

AG's office it was us now if it was taking care of like we wanted it to if we didn't have the arrogance of the board of trustees it would have been a closed issue it would the problems would have been taken care of but it wasn't now we have also asked that we be know we be recognized as beneficiaries and we are all Hawaiians and that we also be a part of the very solution so on contrary it is a Hawaiian issue and we are Hawaiian and we're taking care of the issue yeah I think the trustees and the trustees that forced this you know I think too though you know we do have the the estate has tax exempt status both from the feds and from the the state and as a result then they have to behave accordingly and I think the attorney general has every right now to make sure that they are

behaving as a charitable trust some of the things that we've been hearing Roy's got a good point we it's as a tax exempt organization we tell a charitable trust you don't have to pay any taxes and when they don't pay taxes that means that you and I whoever we are whatever our backgrounds we all pay more taxes that makes it a community issue in my view and while the trust itself is geared towards Hawaiian education the the conduct and performance of the of the trustees is not strictly a Hawaiian issue if they are violating trust laws if they are violating the internal revenue service code this this takes it away from the realm of being a strictly

Hawaiian issue this is it's a legal issue it belongs to the community I think it's very difficult to say that it's strictly a Hawaiian issue and I have to say Dan that in many respects we Hawaiians are partly responsible for the for the deterioration of trustee performance there have been previous efforts to correct activities actions of the trustees and the trustees have always asked us come and demonstrate you alums write in letters do come and testify whole signs and the whole signs and the Hawaiians have always been there we gather around the trustees and we say back off everybody this is a Hawaiian issue and I think that that we may have been somewhat misled into thinking that by defending the

trustees no matter what we thought we were defending the princess we thought we were defending our school and our trust and that as we now know wasn't always true if there was if there was improper behavior wrong behavior or wrong activities we should not have been condoning that we should have been asking the attorney general for an investigation long before this but we we weren't sophisticated enough to do that I don't think so I think it the Hawaiians have had so much taken from them that they jealously protect and guard the remnants and and the trust assets you know one of the few things we have and the same thing with the Hawaiian Homeland program the beneficiaries always said leave that program alone don't change it it you know it doesn't work quite the way we wanted to but if you know we fool with it we might lose the whole

thing and that that has been the attitude towards the Bishop estate so you know I what happened is that it got so egregious and and furthermore I still remember the quote you know you can steal our money but don't mess with our children and this is what has happened I mean they've touched our children I'm going to bring up a touchy point if you if the Supreme Court appoints a person who has been a in education all their life and they go to the Bishop estate and becomes a Bishop estate trustee has been a supervisor of schools can people expect that that person is going to take an unusual interest or a particular interest in the operation of the schools second second part of the question is there a possibility that in the controversy and in the in the in the in the great popularity of Michael Chun I know nothing about this but I only ask the question that maybe that just maybe there may be some truth to the idea that things could could be improved in the schools and that what we might be talking about in regard to the trustees it's heavy

-handedness but it's a true concern for the schools is that a possibility well you use the term supervisor appoints someone as supervisor of the schools that that was never they were I didn't I didn't mean that but I mean you can expect such a person is going to be interested and if we were going to look for an education person if that was determined to be the need and I don't know how the the justices can decide what the need is I think the need should come from the school and from the graduates and from the community we certainly wouldn't pick the one that they selected her experience has been very limited in fact I'm asked Mr. Isawa if he'd like to have Mr. Mrs. Lindsay back on his staff again he didn't answer fool you didn't he didn't actually answer but you see the to me a trustee they're all they all have the same responsibility and that's to take care of the estate and make the estate as productive as possible there's no difference between trustees also I

think we can all agree that any education on institution broad can always stand to be better I don't think any of us disagree with that however you know they have very qualified people and if you remember in the last seven months the bishop estate has spent much money educating the community on how fabulous the curriculum is and how fabulous the teachers are and how wonderful and how terrific those children are doing now why did all of a sudden this all crumble and it's quite quite contrary to what they've said and spent many dollars doing you know Tony that's a rhetorical question I'm pretty certain as a state I mean if you care about education you don't come in you don't come in like gangbusters treat the you know the the staff and administrators with this respect you don't

disregard them undermine them intimidate them threaten them you don't do those kinds of things if you care about education so I mean I I don't think she came from a place of caring but I think your your question is is a little shows shows a little a lack of understanding maybe in that they will be the first time meeting when you have when you have trustees or directors of an organization their policy makers and they're not expected to go out and perform the job of the administrator so you have a major problem when you have a trustee who steps who gives himself two hats as a as a policy maker he should he's supposed to hire the various administrators to do do the job if those administrators don't do the job they they're removed they're fired and you get somebody better but when a trustee goes out and does the

administration who's going to fire them all right if I was making that salary I'd go to the beach but we've got that we need to take a 60 -second break here please stay with us we'll be back with more dialogue on the Bishop of State controversy with Beatty Dawson Roy Benham Tony Lee and Mahayalani Kamatwu it could be the final chapter of a Holocaust we were just interested in making money our fortune in blood money disappeared from Swiss banks the vastest killing machine history fueled by one of the most efficient banking systems in history and how a country that claimed neutrality financed Hitler's war machine a very willing ally Nazi gold watch frontline Tuesday night at nine science is working on a new product babies genetically engineered defect -free

babies just how far has science gone evolution is in our hands and how far would you be willing to go to ensure your child's health discover the next big innovation cracking the code in genetics Tuesday at 10 pm welcome back to our dialogue on the Bishop of State controversy my name is Dan Boilin and answering our phones this evening are the students from Radford High School's Interact Club and we'd like to thank them for spending their Friday evening with us they are answering calls made to 973 1000 for those of you who are just tuning in Bishop of State trustee local ony Lindsey sought time of her own on tonight's dialogue but we were unable to accommodate her dialogue invited trustees to appear at various times over the last six months we will continue to do so we are talking about the controversies surrounding the Kamehameha schools Bishop of State with Tony Lee Roy Benham Beatty Dawson and Mahalani Kamau so if you have a question or comment for our guest please call 973 1000 neighbor island residents may of course call us collect even

on our limited funds what do you feel why do you feel that Michael Chun is the right person or not the right person to be the president of the Kamehameha schools well Michael has has performed well when he was allowed to perform and I think that everyone has at the school as well as your larger Kamehameha Ohana has roundly supported and defined that he is very very well liked even beloved at the school by everyone he's got a a great way of dealing with people and and they they follow him as as one he's charismatic and they and they really looked to him for leadership I think you have an example yeah last night I was having dinner after an alumni meeting at Kenny's and this young gentleman who was a ponho graduate

class of 79 and he stood up as I was leaving and he said I need to hug you and honey you give your kiss I did not know this gentleman before last night and I said why and he said to me I want to thank you and your organization for the wonderful things that you're doing and I think you're absolutely right that Dr. Michael Chun is the most fabulous person and they would probably never ever in the history have another president like him and let me give an example he said I'm one of few that has received a federal grant at the University of Hawaii in sociology and he said this man who did not even know me I did not even go to his school but made it a point to come to me sit down and take time to congratulate me and to tell me what a wonderful person I

am and have a conversation and he said if he does that with me who doesn't even go to the school not even a graduate I can imagine what he does with those students there and I think he's fabulous so no I was just going to say in that regard too because I'm a kupuna in the schools I work with in a elementary school right now and I know not at commandment in the public schools but I but I am aware of how important it is for the principal or to be respected by the students once that's achieved by the principal in this case it's the president anything can occur in that school and it'll be positive because he's a perfect rule model in my mind now question the napua napua napua napua napua okay we are oh wait a minute now I'm getting confused they're writing these things differently is using the alumni association

as a strength as a vehicle to strengthen napua are you being used I don't believe we're being used at all you realize that the memberships are in many cases similar overlap they overlap napua is also graduates of of Kamehameha question what over what what is the final purpose of napua is it trying trying to accomplish we have heard that they want to get one of napua's directors into the trustees wargrobe as a representative war's row steal their Aloha shirts I don't know what what is that I guess into let me let me explain that when we first started out when we were first aware becoming aware that something was happening up at the schools that we felt needed straightening out the talk story sessions were scheduled a bunch of us alumni got together to address those problems and we were going to talk to the trustees about

it the talk story affairs where you know sessions were canceled okay then we felt we needed to do something about it and we turned to the formalized Kamehameha Alumni Association Oahu region for some kind of leadership the leadership was not forthcoming at that time so we decided to act on our own and we gave ourselves the name of napua Kaleh Ipawaii subsequent to that there was an election in the Alumni Association Oahu region and I ran for president and was elected and I consider that a message that they wanted me to be in the association and we are going in the same direction as napua because we're the same people we have the same people who want the same things for the school and that is for the school to be operating under the leadership of the president term is Henry Peters related to judge him yes yes yes he's his uncle

who pays judge him for his report the bishop of state is judge him compromise anyway we're doing well here we go of course it's judge him compromise in any way by a perceived conflict of interest being related I think he did a great job and I want to also reiterate that napua Kaleh Ipawaii from the start had very much confidence in him in what he was going to be an outcome and we're very happy to see what he's done yeah we were we were conscious of his of his of her own relationship conflicts of interest and we told the court about that and I must say at the very beginning we were afraid that those those relationships might cause him to possibly whitewash the situation but anyone reading his report will recognize that this is thorough it's it's candid it's a very fine report all right now that the Pawaii's will says that the Supreme Court shall

choose the trustees of the big state all right the justices the justices I know I don't agree with you that's such a major difference but for the time being let's say that that it is the justices shall choose all right the justices have chosen according to you guys five turkeys or four turkeys now you you got you want to go along with the will you want change well now we do not want to change the will and we want to make that very clear why not if they if they if they're a point bad people because you know on the on the larger specter of the whole thing you change the princesses will what good is your will what good is beaties will what good is my will wills a very sacred they were written for purpose with and and I might add on the princesses for her in her respect she had a vision beyond belief and if if the justices being taken out of that slot

of of picking the trustees changes the will then we don't want that we're encouraged we're encouraged I personally am encouraged with attempts now made by the justices to set up a more planned procedure for making selections way they will have input from the community the command there a Hawaiian community I thought we did have a planned procedure we had a blue ribbon committee I was very satisfied with the recommendations that came forward with that one was what it was someone else planned that that procedure it was not planned by the the judges we went to the judges and said here's the thing you should follow this time they're taking the lead it's going to be their procedure but you know it right it was a good plan well sure there were very credible people they came forward with you know whether they own it or not it was a good plan and I'm you know I'm still very upset that they bypassed the excellent five you know finalists and and came in from the side with somebody else and that's why

you know this there's a perception that the the justices it's a very politicized process and we're very disappointed I think and there are two different plans you're talking about Roy one was an earlier plan that was that was planned by the some of the alums there wasn't earlier plan for the selection process some years ago and that was never adopted by the justices but I think what my alunny is referring to is the blue blue ribbon committee that was chosen by the justices they they selected this group they set it up but the plan included that that was part of the plan there was no plan that they did select but that was part of the plan whatever you know it was a blue ribbon committee I'm encouraged and respected people they came forward with five excellent excellent candidates and and they and they just put it on the side and brought somebody

else in and that I mean I to me that was when I totally lost confidence in these justices and and no amount of explaining is going to convince me that that process wasn't totally politicized yes I agree and yet you but you don't want to mess around with the will right well we need to we need to put it a mechanism to protect that we agree with that okay if we are placed under a receivership uh we the corporate uh if the school I guess is placed under receivership will the state have control over the estate and someone else says what will the impact of a receivership be yeah not at all they were this will not mean state control it doesn't apply it apply imply that and in in for practical purposes there is no state control with a receiver what does a receivership mean well a receiver is or a panel of receivers depending upon how the the probate court looks at this is a mechanism under trust law that it permits a

probate judge to put someone in there to to preserve a state an estate or a trust which is in jeopardy that's what that's what that person is there for to preserve it until it can be stabilized and a more permanent resolution is found for it it's it's actually um I I know that some people think it's it's a rather drastic measure but um it's a very practical measure when a an estate has reached the point where the beneficiaries are not being the prime are not the primary consideration of the actions and activities of your trustees and that apparently is what has happened here uh someone calls into comment that the guests keep talking about uh their own point of view this is only a one -sided point of view you're right it is uh this question comes from me we had another point of view last week

we'll have many more points of view on the subject for sure this question is from a command me a student what what do I guess we haven't really spoken to this directly what what do they think trusty Lindsey did that was so horrible what do you think she did that was so horrible shall I read from this report no she created an environment of fear and intimidation she undermined the school the the teachers she intimidated the students she bypassed I mean it looks like there are there were some questionable expenditures of a very large magnitude she took dr. trans job away from him she gave it brought in a whole new body um as a vice president rockney freighters she intimidated a student and took him down and interrogated him in her office see she established a form of censorship that uh they had never occurred before at the school let me read something here it says um as long as it's not yeah it says three programs uh three programs report

directly to dr. Chun chaplain program evaluation and planning and grants the rest of the the rest of the programs report to the vice president uh administration secondary school command me elementary school command me school east Hawaii campus preschool division community relations also included under the vice president's office's curriculum and instructional coordinator and trusty Lindsey deals only with the vice chair the vice president so dr. Chun has been effectively you know uh shunted all the president freighters correct correct uh that's one of the things she did that was terrible bd uh someone calls wants to know could the supreme court justices be sued for the misdeeds of the trustees that they bet it's an interesting idea well i suppose it is a possibility since they make their appointments as individuals they do not have the sovereign immunity that a court has uh and it is possible that they can be held uh

personally liable uh if the trustees are so bad how did this how did the estate get to be the largest of its kind what's wrong what's what's what if they aren't they making money isn't the estate making money i'd like to respond to that because it seems that very often the trustees seem to want to take credit for the uh for for growing the estate there are two major reasons why we have such a wealthy three three reasons why we have such a wealthy estate number one princess powa he left over four hundred thousand acres for the sole purpose of educating our Hawaiian children that's the first reason why we have such a larger state the second one is a land reform act was passed by our legislature this land reform act which forced to the bishop of state to sell its lands immediately escalated starting in the early 1980s the estate which was at one time land rich and cash pour into a

billion multi billion dollar organ estate yeah ten billion the third reason for such a large estate is due to the simple cause and effect of if inflation principally the large um accelerated periods we have the most recent one being the japanese bubble which caused land values to escalate by enormous percentages that japanese bubble made a lot of people are good in it yeah absolutely not just in uh and this what these are the underlying reasons why we have such a wealthy estate today i don't think that the trustees can take credit for that it's our princess and a variety of other external uh incidents or events if you will that have made this such a wealthy estate uh what's your opinion uh anybody of uh of the of recently retired trustees and did they contribute to the

problem indeed indeed well indeed yes they have yes they have the disclosures that have come forward um principally uh the the major ones uh the McKenzie methane gas investments which have have lost millions of dollars for the estate and those are millions that could have been spent on the school could have been spent on our children to give them give more of them uh and even better education those millions and the conflicts of interest that went along with the methane gas investments um uh were brought to the floor and this is by these were this was primarily by by past trustees there's no question that these events occurred um even in in the in the matter of the uh the golf course investments which again

uh had great conflicts of interest in them um there were former trustees that were uh responsible for those investments and uh and uh and they you don't want to rake anybody over the calls by name though well everyone knows them i think um matsu uh uh matsy takabuki um uh Richard ssin pinky tomson uh even us dendrit all of these individuals were trustees at the time. Tony, you were going to say something or did I cut you off? She said it. My handline? Well, the current controversy is as a result and is coincident with the 10 -year -of -locality Lindsey. So, you know, that's, and that has, you know, for better or for worse served as a wedge and brought to light and emboldened some of the perhaps not too friendly elements within our community who are now, you know, I think, exploiting this opportunity to

investigate long -standing problems. I'm not, I'm not an investment expert. I'm waiting to hear more. You know, I always thought that Massey Takabuki did very well by the estate. I now understand that, you know, the strategy may be too risky to, you know, to dependent on venture capital type approach. My understanding of, you know, investment strategy is that you look at the long -term so that, you know, there are peaks and valleys, but over time, if you realize, you know, appreciation in the asset and you beat the market, then it's a decent return. So, I feel, I feel a little bit inadequate to, to indict or condemn that investment part. So, I'm, I'm really waiting to hear from the Attorney General and the IRS. The Master's Report is still not conclusive and all of those things combined, I think, will present

a fair picture of the investment side. Another relation question is, low -colonning, Lindsay, related to the ex -governor. Governor YA, is she? I don't know. My understanding is that she is. But we don't know for sure. No. We have to have that program with low -colonning. We've got to find out these things. Well, what is Peter's qualification to handle Bishop of State's investments? He's the, he was the lead trustee on investments, right? I think he was probably mentored by Takabuki, but otherwise I don't know. I don't think there's anything in his background of experience that would place him in a position of qualifications to, to manage investments. I, I can't think of any investment firm, larger small, that would hire a someone whose main experience was as a legislator, as a politician, and I believe he was in insurance at some time in his life. I think that's been the major problem is qualification. Yeah. We have

trustees, all except for us, and they're really right now, that are not qualified. You know, and you, and what do you expect out of non -qualified people? I have to give this comment, Tony, since you're on, someone calls and says, Tony Lee is a cutie, and a lot of people are supporting you. Now, how do you like that? I had it. I'm sorry. I had to embarrass you. Thank you. Why does that ruin a whole fountain boy down with one vacation? Why doesn't the command mail school have a bigger impact on the Hawaiian community, especially the economically challenged child abuse education for the home, child abuse on child abuse education for the homeless, et cetera? Well, the schools were certainly work, you know, moving in that direction with their extension education programs, which were dismantled by Trustee Lindsey. As soon as she came in, she took good care of that. Very good. That took care of that one. More money, comment, more money should

be used to help disadvantaged children of a Hawaiian blood in public schools. That was the outreach program. That's right. And they were talking about, and they were greatly engulfed in that, and she chopped that program. And I want to also add that, you know, not too long ago, the president of the United States came forward and said that it is proven fact now that early education is very important. And you know, we all sat really tall. I did as an alum. I sat tall in my seat, then I said, our school does that. But you know what? She cut the program. So we couldn't even stand up and say, how white he does it? The command mail schools does it? Because she cut the program. By the way, in fairness now, we're saying she, but it takes, takes three to do it. Right. Takes three votes. Right. It's a problem. Well, and before you pass by too quickly on that three trustees, there is another point that everyone needs to be clear on. And that is that even though three trustees make a decision on a given event or a given

action, all trustees bear responsibility for everything that goes on in a school. And for this reason, I sometimes feel that Mrs. Lindsey has been unfairly loaded with the blame. Perhaps to exonerate all of the other trustees under trust law, if where you have multiple trustees, they are all equally responsible for all trust affairs. And if they delegate the responsibility for the school to one of the trustees and she goes out and she screws it up, they've all screwed up. And they're all responsible. When we first started on on March, we did not mention any trustees name. We said the trustees have allowed this to happen. We did that purposely. Everyone says the wheel is sacred, but with the wheel, but the wheel

prohibits it. This is an interesting thing. I think the question was sent in by Fred Rice. Fredy Rice. He points off that this is the only school in the country that can keep people out on the basis of race and still get federal grants, is that right? Tell Mr. Rice that we let every race in the world come to come out of school. That's right. They just have to have an ounce of Hawaiian, that's all. If you take all the blood on the campus and put it in two jars, the big jar will be the other nationalities, the little jar will be the Hawaiian. We take care of all races, Mr. Rice. Yeah, Fredy Rice should just take his arguments to court where he has consistently lost. Isn't the wheel subject to the law? Of course. It is. All wheels are. Absolutely. So therefore if I don't know where that goes, I'm sorry. I have nowhere to go with this. We're running out of time. I just want to ask you. You can't. We're running out of time. Well, I'm upset because whoever said that only Tony was cute. I'm kind of

like feeling bad. I think BD and I are cute. One of the things we're out of time are thanks to Roy Benham, Tony Lee, Mahalani, Kamatwu, and to Beatty Dawson for being with us this evening. And thanks also to the students from Bradford High School's Interact Club for answering our phones tonight. Dialogue begins its holiday hiatus next week. That means we'll be in reruns on core presentations at a high class place like this. Whatever you want to call them, but we will be back on January 9th with the beginning of the legislative session from all of us at a white public television. We thank you for having watched dialogue in 1997 and wish you the very best of the holiday season. Aloha. Dialogue is brought to you by

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