Public Affairs Program; Rocky Flats Shut Down

It's with a lot of history so I would say upwards of 200 some odd people during the evening events alone people which range from the ages of 12 to 75. A really good age range. We dealt with any number of topics which I could enumerate but at this point it was a wonderful week culminating in a terrific action which nonviolence carried the tone of the day and I feel really good about it and of the possibilities that we can use it to create a campaign for the future. And that's enthusiastic Wendy Rockman. You did well I don't know if you have more enthusiasm for John Shannon's we're hearing now. I think the blockade on Sunday was was a total success. It lasted for several hours longer than I and I had hoped in my best expectations. We had more people out there than I expected. And we closed the plant for five hours that's never been done before in history and nationally I don't think it's ever been done before at a nuclear weapons facility where a citizen action like the one on Sunday actually closed it a facility that is producing nuclear weapons so that your expectations for the week were not only met but exceeded.

Oh definitely. And my concerns are even worse waged. My concerns that things would get a little bit out of hand perhaps there was always the possibility that that could happen at any kind of nonviolent action and protest of this nature and I felt that I was so proud of the way people behaved. I was really proud of everyone and I want to let you all out there know that perhaps the one disappointing factor for me joy was the lack of involvement of more middle class people and I have a sense of disappointment about that yet at the same time I've come to believe that social change doesn't start in the middle class and in fact the middle class is a hindrance to it sometimes. And so I think that actions like the military action at the plant over the weekend are the kind that are designed as much as anything to inspire the middle class to at least question their values in their lifestyle. It may not attract them to participate but it's designed to call into question their basic assumptions about life.

I want to know what you mean by getting the middle class more involved. Because in my experiences throughout the week and during the day coordinating things that have been at both the West Gate and at the east gate there were most of the people there were from the middle class most of the people there were from various age levels I saw workers there from Longmont truck drivers Housewives daycare workers professors. I felt that the middle class was well represented. And a lot of the young people too are those sons and daughters of the middle class and that's that's where they came from they came from Boulder from Metro Denver from the suburbs and I think the majority of the young people out there were from middle class backgrounds. Perhaps you know mainstream Chad is that what you mean. No I mean middle class that was my perception that they were middle class in particular. Well let's see that we have a difference of perception. Who was in their chat what do you mean when you say you didn't see the middle class how would you identify the people. The majority of the people who did turn out. The people who did turn out I would identify as as John pointed out there are a surprising number of young people. Not exactly surprising because I've seen that developing over

the past 6 months and I must say it's a it's a real strong sign of a new generation of nonviolent activists making a firm commitment to a long term struggle and whether they come from the middle class is not easy for me to say but it's clear to me that by their politics and their lifestyle that they've rejected the values of the middle class and so they're no longer part of it. At least at this point in their lives they may have the privilege and elect to rejoin the middle class at some point but for now it seems to me that they are there certainly. Fringe element one that I'm happy as there John would you take that as a correction a valid correction to what you were saying earlier. Partially I think that that regardless of what people are wearing on the day or how they chose to wear their hair or whatever else that's sets them off from the main thing the middle class I mean the fact that they were there the fact that they were wearing what they were wearing or had Mohawks or long hair or dreadlocks or whatever was in a direct response to their middle

class upbringing for a lot of people that were out there and I think it's a response to the hopelessness that a lot of people feel in the face of nuclear weapons and the lack of lack of a real concrete future that a lot of people feel you know about as just me Wendy I'm I'm embarrassed to recognize that we're five minutes into the program and I have been acting as if everyone in our audience was aware of what all we really are talking about just in case you happen to have been out of town last week last week was Rocky Flats shut down the series of actions over the entire week which culminated in Sunday in an action that has somewhere between I guess 500 and a thousand people that were just it is between 800 and a thousand total people there including support and block areas and then there were several hundred arrests that all of this to make the point that the Rocky Flats plant you know is bad for us because it produces. The bombs that are triggers for nuclear weapons and because it is an environmental

danger. Yeah I want to get back to this thing about the middle class and particularly I'm surprised to hear you focusing on people who have creative haircuts because you know that's just what the mainstream media does. And I don't want to talk about that here there were a handful of people with creative haircuts there but most of the folks they were folks that you see in the laundromat that you see in the room from wait a minute when it's not everyone is perceiving it that way. And in fact I think it may be that most people when they look at a crowd of a hundred people if they see three people with punk haircuts they begin to say this is a strange crowd when it's only 3 percent. But nonetheless there is a perception at least that there is an important element of the community which is very significant in many ways that was under represented significantly under represented among the people who turned out on Sunday. But I disagree with that. I mean that may be someone's perception but that is not what happened. And that's not us who is there.

When you are conceptualizing this event did you think about how we are going to appeal to different segments of the community how we're going to to mobilize and get the participation of a broad spectrum you're in. And what are the things that the shutdown set out to do from the very beginning seven months ago was particularly to focus on young people as that as another the next generation of people that would be involved in peace and environmental movements and that was one of our goals was to mobilize a lot of young people who I think were very successful. And the peace center's work was to mobilize our existing constituency and to reach out to those who are on the edge of being involved in anti-nuclear issues but who needed just that little extra push to put them I think into the Central. Actions of activism in the things that we did where the seven or so evening events which included several educational events and the rally the legal rally that took place the day before which was a way for

people who wanted to see what was happening. To come and hopefully we will be able to inspire them to come the next day. You know one of my neighbors who I never expected even to be there was there and then came to the action the next day. So I was not the reason we wanted to do that. It's helped a lot as well and mobilizing a lot of people that had never before participated in civil disobedience. I mean I did a nonviolence training in Denver a couple weeks before the action and there was just one man there who had never participated in a demonstration before said he was when he said he was scared of everything he would say he was almost too scared to come to the nonviolence training. And yet he came out to the rally came out to the action was arrested came back after his arrest and did support and said the whole experience was great and he was told be positive and he's going to come back again. And I think that type of thing happened to many many people out there on Sunday. A lot of people were very empowered that the mood was very up there wasn't a negative protest it was a very positive demonstration. People felt very empowered by their actions and I think the next time we come back and do it we're going to have more people.

Well the next time we come back into that I would like to see some workers and I'd like us to focus on some conversations on how to do that in the future. John you said that the plant was shut down for five hours. Right. And the people at Rockwell will not confirm they contend that operations were more or less normal that they did have to pay time and a half to have some workers from the previous shift stay over on an overtime basis. Right. I think we all realize that in the end that we can't shut the plant down with bodies by bringing our bodies out there that this plant is seen as having is being at virtually the center. This is one of the reasons where the action is that it's at the center of the U.S. nuclear program without this the U.S. nuclear arsenal begins to become obsolete as more weapons are not produced and therefore I think we're aware

that. Several government were to believe the production at Rocky Flats actually were threatened that they would take any measures that seemed to be necessary to keep the plant operating. That might mean cordoning off a 100 square mile area around the plant they would they might evacuate Boulder Colorado if they needed to but they would accomplish keeping that plant open and they would use whatever force of arms was necessary to do that. That's true Joel we know that the security forces there have shoot to kill orders and we know that it is the crossroads of the nuclear arms race and we know also that it's an important symbol for nuclear nuclear policy makers in this country. Rocky Flats could probably close for several years and not have any impact or very any visible impact on our nuclear arsenal. Yet they're determined to keep it open every minute of every day. Right. And precisely because of its symbolic importance the fact that

you were able to keep vehicles from the level of force that would have been required to get vehicles in and out of there for five hours was simply higher in political cost right than they were willing to accept that this was a real victory for the people that went out. But I'd like to turn on us if I could to how we build to change the policies which make it a priority to produce nuclear weapons. Well I see these this type of nonviolent direct action really as as one part of a total strategy aimed at reversing and changing national policy. There's a lot of electoral work that's going on around nuclear issues environmental issues litigation work there a lot of you know lawsuits rights like that. But this type of nonviolent direct action that we had on Sunday really give us a little more punch to the electoral work and and the legal work that that is going on

and only hopefully will will force the issue and force the politicians to compromise on the issue and to put it on the political agenda. You know they could either you know deal us the you know the evil groups and the electoral groups now are they going to deal with 10000 people in the streets later and that might be a little bit that pushes them over the edge towards compromise and and beginning the process of disarmament. I also think that this kind of action realistically empowers people to go ahead and work on that kind of electoral politics that kind of writing to the Congress people writing to the president writing to whoever they feel is important writing letters to the editor which I think is really an important thing to let people know their views being there on that day. I know I'm really enthused to people who had never been to an action before and they will now go and do those things I think that's a way we create numbers and we create higher energy for people to go out and do that other kind of grassroots work. So I think they go hand in hand direct action and other kinds of work

that makes participatory democracy the political commitment that comes out of an action like that one on Sunday. Joel is Maggie orders of magnitude greater than the political commitment that goes into it. I think I think it's the challenge of this movement now to capitalize on the momentum that's been created and channel those people into constructive long term work that will include elements of direct action that will include elements of electoral work that will include elements of education. So that you see this is an energy building rather than an energy absorbing. Absolutely gutted and everyone I spoke to that was out there on Sunday was completely enthused energetic. They went away really high and you know they renewed commitment that you guys know where you get what you get. You're definitely a net gain in the long run. I think that the kind of experience that 15 to 20 year olds in particular have and Sunday is going to impact their entire life

and their and their children's lives and on and on and without that had we not done this action they would have gone about their lives wondering if anybody really cared if anybody really took a stand in the war. And so if for no one but those 300 people this action was worth it. John you have and shutdown has been very much based in working with young people who've been involved in in this action. I think that many of our listeners would kind of take a look at the personal styles of a lot of the young people and not take them seriously not believe that they were going to perhaps do anything other than hang onto a fence while the state police try to rip them off of it. Well I think if all they ever do is close the plant for that one day they've done a lot. You know and weather and I would disagree that those people are not going to come back and do other types of work on it. And I would disagree that that

just doing that is not enough. And I think if if people want to do nonviolent direct action and don't want to do the letter writing in the petitioning that's fine. We're planning another major action out there in October another one again in April and we're going to keep coming back again and again and again with more and more people each time and until that direct action and everything else that we're working on the electoral work in the public education combines to create a mood and a consensus and in this area in this whole country that you know we have to disarm unhealthier at Rocky Flats. What impact does that experience like participating in the last week. One on the young people that you know well I think that it allows them to see that it's not just young people it's not just them that's involved in this issue. I think it creates bridges between generations because there are a lot of generations that represented and in fact those people who are on the over six. The 65 age group are the ones that got the biggest cheers and the biggest raise for their activism So I think it shows young

people that they're not alone that they don't that they aren't necessarily alienated from the entire older generation and that it bridges gaps that way. And that's one of the things I think that one of the impacts that has on young people. Yeah I think that's that's very true and I've spoken to a lot of people the last couple days that are very upset that they missed that everybody. I mean 10 times a day 15 times a day people come up to me and ask me when we're doing it again we're going to take your calls in just a few minutes. But 4 4 9 4 8 8 5. But I'd like to first turn our discussion to the question of organizing politically for a change in U.S. policies which impact on the nuclear arsenal. You've alluded to the need for multiple strategies multiple tactics that the tactics terror and different kinds of activities tend to be mutually reinforcing. They're complementary. What about the question of single issue organisation versus political party. The way that I came upon that assize I

was involved in monitoring the action on Sunday was the question what do you tell the Rockwell worker and what occurred to me. You know identifying with a Rockwell worker would be fewer people involved in shutdown. Well they may be very good at shutting something down but are they in a position to have the political influence to have a political program to really put forth an alternative something that I can stake my livelihood and the welfare of my family on in building a future and one can say well that's really shortsighted if we're all they radiated then we have no future anyway. But you know if the radiation is not certain and it's going to be 15 or 20 years ahead maybe then at least there's 15 or 20 years into it to continue in employment. And of course that Rockwell worker most likely believes that we need the nuclear

weapons. How do we deal with. Do you turn people off when you say we're not just been involved in shutdown but we are a political party too or we want you to support this particular political program. Does that complicate things and you lose support. Or does that give you the kind of broad spectrum approach to people's concerns that games support my sense is that shutdown had a single mission and served its mission well and it did shut down the plant. The Rocky Mountain Peace Center on the other hand in working with shutdown has a broader mission one that's not defined as a political party but one that's aimed at challenging the basic assumptions of security in the nuclear age and trying to bring about a grassroots re-evaluation of our nuclear policy in our national security policy as a whole and of course national security policy can't be isolated from economic policy and from other domestic policies. We see it as a

complex web of relationships and I can address your questions the questions of jobs and economics at Rocky Flats on one hand but I prefer to do. Used to say that there are alternatives to the nuclear arms race that will provide security for this country and they're not without risk but certainly we know that the nuclear arms race is also without and is not without risk and so the peace that other groups like it around the country are trying to build a movement for nonviolence one which changes the way in which people live their lives and the way in which their lives demand. Nuclear weapons to protect their lifestyles and in terms of strategy in reaching out to the workers which I think is really important. It is known that the workers at Rocky Flats who worked directly for Rockwell and indirectly for the d o e the Department of Energy are very dissatisfied with Rockwell as the overseer of their work they're very dissatisfied with the safety risks that they endure every day. And I think it might be a good

strategy for our movement since we're concerned with the safety of the environment. We should also be concerned with their safety in the plant to work with the union who is trying to do some negotiations with Rockwell and maybe even get another overseer that we should work with the workers on. They're supposed to. The concern and that's one way to get people to listen to your concerns. That's actually a very classic way of organizing trying to get minorities to work on your own issue. That would be a way to at least reach out and show the rocket workers that we have concerns for them. My personal feeling is that to try and capitalize on the dissatisfaction with Rockwell is not a good one. In 1975 Dow Chemical Company which ran the Rocky Flats from 1952 till 1975 and was responsible for most of the contamination there Rockwell is not responsible for what they've actually done quite a good job. By comparison there was an effort on the part of a small number of stockholders of Dow and rock and Rockwell rather to prevent

them from taking the contract there. And there was an effort to work with the steelworkers union that's organized out there and say we want you to oppose this. The takeover of occupied by Iraq will end and do not support their taking the contract. And it didn't work I mean their basic interest is their jobs and I think the way to address the economics of the Rocky Flats plant is to talk about the conversion option. What else could those workers do. Well there first of all quite highly skilled as a as as a whole and easily retrain of all and they're also working in an you know an economy that's relatively healthy and the Department of Energy's own study has shown that the social and economic impact of what they call changing missions at Rocky Flats would have a relatively small impact on the local community and that their workers could be re employed in other industries it's easy for most of us to see that the technicians and engineers who work at Rocky Flats building might be able to provide a lot more security for society by working down the road at Solar Energy Research Institute in golden and helping us free ourselves from

the bonds of non renewable resources. So I think that the conversion potential for Rocky Flats is strong and that we need to do is work with the workforce there to demand a say in how decision is management decisions that affect their lives are made for a conversion planned to be. To be done at this point you knew that that success in Geneva requires Rocky Flats to close in peace breaks out when you talk about conversion when it's important to me when people I just want to say that we will be taking your calls right now as soon as we continue this discussion. If you'd like to go on the air and contribute your views call us here at KGO and you at work for 9 4 8 8 5. When you call we will allow your call to ring until we're ready to take it and then you'll be right on the air. So do you have patience please and just let the phone ring and we'll get to you as soon as we can. We've got one call coming in and we'll take that as soon as you get your comment in Wendy.

Well I just want to make sure that listeners know that when we talk about conversion we're not just we're not talking about converting the actual facility at Rocky Flats because that may be too contaminated we're talking about converting energy as person power into more creative usage I think that's really important when I used to see bumper stickers and buttons that say convert Rocky Flats I was wondered how we could convert a place that we are claiming is so polluting and so polluted and that people realize that we're talking about converting people's energies. Thanks we're going to take our first call now and I hope I've got this technology managed well enough. These are patients if we don't let me say that we invite calls from all segments of the community we'd certainly like to hear from someone who works not at Rockwell if someone with a concern about the impact of the plant on the local economy. You're on the you're welcome to continue. I have some comments I've been involved in these sorts of things for a while and this is really I consider really

the highly successful action and one element of it that I think is the most successful that I've ever experienced was the jail solidarity actions of people who were arrested and did not give their names do we. When you were taking the Jeffco refused to identify ourselves and eventually we were denied access to a lawyer at night food like that a large number of people refused to be released even until we had spoken to the lawyer. Finally seated toward it was it was just really inspiring to see people holding together. Jason thanks very much for your call. You're on the air on Katie and you know I don't want to get really annoyed everyone. I like a lot of the reactions in the studio that you people. Thank

you for your call. Oh. Yeah. I want to. I'm going. To. Let's.

Talk about what I think our organizers will give some phone numbers before we're done to help connect with it. Yes first of all I'd like to thank you very much for your vote of confidence it's always nice to hear that in such a thankless job but I would also like to let our listeners know what you're talking about and nonviolence training is one of them. The core things that the Rocky Mountain Peace Center does in the entire front range and whole area of the Southwest made it. Yeah I want to let people know what it is it's about a six hour five to six hour long day in which you learn about some of the theory and some of the practice of nonviolence. You meet other folks that are interested get to know them and then practice some things like that would be quick decisions or if it's about any specific action like these trainings dealt with this

particular blockade we practiced what it might be like. And these are ways for the for group building and you also mentioned affinity groups and affinity groups or groups of between five and 20 people that are collections of folks who are committed to the one another's safety and support one another in an action where there are hundreds and thousands of people so you don't feel alone in the Rocky Mountain peace and I will be happy to provide trainings for anyone who wants to give us a call. And what's your phone number. Our phone number is 4 4 4 6 9 8 1. Good. We'll repeat that later. Thanks very much for your call. You're on the air. Well I have the 12 CT grid planted inside Rocky Flats one of the three people that work there. I tried Rocky Flats and used it with quartz crystals. Took one week a guy that works there that's really actually a nice guy and when you get to the point of your comment for us

you want if you can if you want to do the program for the people who are trying to level to become aware of what they're really doing that you are not like 16 17. Think about that Crystal their planet. I think that's a great idea and in fact we will be the center of harmonic convergence That's coming up on the 16th. Thanks thanks so much for your call. Yes you're on the air strike two workers. There are only 31 your market your mind. Years ago they were. Can you speak up a bit. Oh we're having trouble hearing you. Years ago the United Steelworkers passed a resolution that they were favor of arms reduction last year. Yes

strongly at any rate and of course they work hard to get located on the ribbon. Prior can you get to the point you're going to make it through the door that they're now the work of a very dangerous environment. I was reminded of that column but fortunately the metal workers were creating lung problems like you like. Thanks very much for your call. It turns out actually that Rocky Flats is probably not going to be used in a disarmament scenario precisely because of the verification problem for the Soviet Union in the event of a nuclear weapons pact is signed. The only way they have to monitor Rocky Flats is with satellites and the only way they can be sure that Rocky Flats isn't doing what it's always done is to watch it with satellites and they can't tell whether inside those buildings out there the weapons are being dismantled or built so it's my estimation that Rocky Flats would

have to be one of those plants completely shut down for verification purposes. We're going to take another called liked and thank you very much for your patience. You're on the air here I'm a very patient person and one of the things that I'd like to recommend primarily to people who came to the protest and participate in the civil disobedience but didn't come to the prior nonviolence training. Is to understand and in these trainings we learn things more than just standard nonviolent tactics and we can learn strategies strategical activities and know what you can do to prolong your presence there and still be the thorn in the side. We are known to be good at the ways to block buses and techniques of locking yourself to things and techniques for dragging fences around and setting them up in front of gates and there's a lot of things that we can do in addition to simply being a number of body and I think that only like about a hundred and twenty am I right

only about one hundred twenty of the 300 some people participated in a CD am I correct. You know the training. Yeah I mean I'm in the training in trainings particular to this action but I would estimate that about 200 people there were actually trained in this specific one. And this specific one I would say one hundred twenty two hundred sixty It's really hard to say because different people are at different trainings. OK. We did about seven trainings all together. You're right so the training is a very experienced and I think a lot through the learning experience that simply reading or discussion can't provide. Thanks very much for your call Thomas and you're I'm counting on you and God like you to hold for John's comment and then general critique yours. I think the point that you just brought up was a really good one that the people that did the blockade on Sunday did link arms. I did hold onto each other and most of them went limp when the police came and arrested them. And that those types of tactics linking arms and going limp

which are fully within the nonviolent tradition of both Gandhi and King serve to prolong the effectiveness of our action instead of walking away with the police it takes two or three officers to carry you away instead of standing up and and standing when they say you're under arrest they actually have to come in and and pull you apart from your neighbors that are holding on to the blockade and those types of tactics which are completely nonviolent you know make our blockade much more effective and that's why I think it lasted for five five and a half hours with frankly less arrests and then I thought a blockade of that length would need and people learn these tactics at the nonviolence trainings and get a chance to practice them so you don't feel like you're doing it for the first time. And the voice you just heard was when Iraq and before that John Shannon from shut down when she said ski from Rocky Mountain News Center are here with me on hemispheres I'm told Edelstein. We're going to take one more call now and then I'm going to give my guests a rest and we'll go to some music. But first I would like to congratulate you on your patients and you're on the air right now.

Hi I am from from Minnesota and I've been involved with the peace movement approximately since nineteen nine. And you know while I have participated in various kinds of I have never really gotten arrested before. I more or less got away with it but this time I was bound and determined to get arrested. The only thing that I knew was missing was that I had never had any training in nonviolent civil disobedience. So you know I I almost chickened out of getting arrested. But but then I finally sat down and you know I watched as other people struggled who did not want to leave. And you know right now you know I I took the pacifist way out of the whole thing. As I was read my quote unquote rights they let me away and I was laughing and telling them that what they were doing was a waste of time and. And then you know on the other hand I was beginning to wish that I had not only resisted more but that I had not even given my

name that I'd given a fake name or a name for it or a name. But I found the experience to be one in which you felt more comfortable you know expressed through civil disobedience your feelings about this issue. Right. I mean I think. Important thing is not how I did it but the fact that I even got arrested for something that I believe in. The only thing I can do is you know the next time I participate in a civil disobedience action regardless of what that may be. You know the struggle to get some civil disobedience training. Thanks very much for your call. And we do have one caller now I'd like to ask for your patience a bit longer. We're going to have to give our guests a break and we'll be back in about two minutes. Right now we have Pete Seeger and quite early morning.

All right. And we're back live. You're listening to hemispheres I'm Joel Edelstein with me in the

studio. John Shannon from shut down. Wendy Rockman and church. That's from the Rocky Mountain Peace Center. You folks are some of the central organizers of the Rocky Rocky Flat shut down week that just concluded on Sunday. Julie must must make one thing clear that Wendy and Joe were deeply involved in the organizing of the text and it was not with us. Passive observer. OK Chad I stand corrected. We're here at 4 4 9 4 8 8 5 and we do welcome your calls our lines are open right now. I would like to go back to the question of the people at Rocky Flats in the mainstream people who identify perhaps this movement as one that's not the kind of politics that they're used to. People are used to voting booth politics perhaps every four years and then maybe 53 percent of us nationally will go out and and vote but people don't relate to politics as an ongoing

participation in policy in the way that this movement does. And people also I think are not directly convinced Well we do have massive support across the country for a nuclear freeze all the polls do show that. But in terms of a Rocky Flats Jeff down. That may be a little bit less clear. I am a bit concerned I'm more than a bit concerned when I observe that Coca-Cola Company for example has spent over one billion dollars in the last year and in the last 10 years or so in order to accomplish one simple thing and that is to get in people's minds a concept like Coke is yet. And then they may well have succeeded but it cost them a billion dollars over 10 years to get just Coke is it. You're trying to communicate much much more complex concepts and understanding and

information and I don't think you have a billion dollars to do it. Well how do you deal with a problem that your little one just yet you can't just walk around on my experience organizing their their blockade out there on Sunday with a couple thousand dollars and a thousand people we close the plant. So maybe it took coke a billion dollars in 10 years to communicate their advertising slogan but the couple thousand dollars and a thousand people. He closed the plant and now we're planning on coming back again in October and it and again in April with more people and you know with bigger budgets and and better actions and now that we've gone through what we're experiencing you know what we can improve on and where we can you know pull back a little bit and you know I think each time we do it we get better at it and you know I mean with with a fraction of the resources of Coke or the Department of Defense or Department of Energy I think we're getting a tremendous a bang for our buck has to be nonviolence as that is the treasure of the poor.

It's the real thing. It's good. If it's the only thing we've got and I think it works best for those people who are more typically disempowered in society and it's a way of both empowering them and exercising the power at the same time we don't have a billion dollars here right. And we we don't want to. We can use subliminal seduction if we could. We're trying to address people straightforward and I think that what we all trust in the end is the instincts and commonsense of ordinary people to do what they know is right when they see other people doing the same thing. There is a concept of our society as being a math society is one where a lot of community has broken down where people really don't communicate with each other very much. And that's one of the things that tends to make media powerful. One of the things that political scientists of that happens to be my trade political scientists are always observing is that every year campaigning becomes more expensive become because it becomes more dependent

on television. Do you think that you need to recreate community. In order to combat the the kind of established corporate military government nexus of course and I think that goes back to the question you asked earlier about between single issue and presenting an entire alternative. And I think one of the things that came out of the action last weekend when it thinks we went into organizing this very consciously was to create community was to treat that open communication and community feeling and personal empowerment. That does transcend the mass of society does transcend the media's hold on people's thoughts. And I think we we did create a lot of community out there on Sunday. And in fact we had what we called the vulgar peace community it was declared as such by Mayor Linda Jorgensen. And we had a community of people that came from all works walks of life that came and participated in the variety of activities that we had so I believe the building community is

really important that it's important for us not to feel compartmentalize into our own little niches. And that being involved in the movement is one of the best ways I've found to find community and people who enter in to our programs also say that so we are a community about community building and it is through building that community that we're going to be able to shut down Rocky Flats by changing the nuclear policy of the United States. We do have lines open. You can call in at 4 4 9 4 8 8 5. How do you feel that the Denver metro area media treated the shutdown. I'd say it was pretty good for the media. They haven't traditionally treated at demonstrations and social change movements very well. Usually they just ignore them that seems to be a standard media tactic these days is to not to not to report you know misinformation about and direct action or are any kind of demonstration but just are not reported at all. And

I think that that action at Rocky Flats was so large and and so significant and historic in a way that it was the first time something like that ever happened in this country that we didn't get a lot of tremendous media attention in the local area. All three major networks broadcast it on Sunday night in their national news segments CNN broadcast that Sunday night at National Public Radio had it on Morning Edition on Monday. It was in USA Today The New York Times. And I think for the first time since I've been involved in activism we've I've you know really broken into the national media the local media on the whole is fairly accurate they always tend to downplay the numbers we haven't not really focused on the satchel issue that a lot of the media took an anecdotal approach to the whole blockade rather than focusing on the purpose of of why were there except of course you know. Well you know one of the things that helped us was our week long buildup of activities that the media and particularly our local newspaper really covered quite well we

had several photo opportunities and they had different articles about things so the public was generally aware of what was happening all week and then knew that the blockade was going to happen so the media had to report on it since the public knew that that was happening I mean we we made the news you know. Let's OK go ahead. After almost 15 years of nonstop organizing around Rocky Flats as you can imagine it's getting increasingly challenging for the movement to come up with new ideas that will capture the imagination of the press and the public. And I think that the only reason that there's been a lull in direct political activity at Rocky Flats for the past four years is that many of us sort of came up with the dry bucket of ideas and then the shutdown hit town last winter and and you know fill that bucket with some fresh ideas and I think that's very important because it's been my experience that what follows a period of direct action activity and high profile militancy at Rocky Flats is

a period of. Activity on the part of moderates politicians in the middle. And I think what we can expect to find as is ongoing demonstrations on the part of people that were involved over the weekend that will stimulate those at all at all points on the political spectrum to take the whole thing more seriously. I think we'll see more studies by Congressman Skaggs and we'll see more apologies by the Department of Energy and we'll see more analysis in the newspapers and we'll see more petitions by citizens groups in Arvada and all of those things of course create momentum for a mass movement. To close Rocky Flats and to end the arms race. But it's often inspired by very small seemingly insignificant actions. You've indicated shutdown Howser in an ongoing program that intends to carry out if you go into the sure. I mean it was never our intention that after this one action we would try to fold up

and die. Even doing the monthly marches out there since February 1st and we intend to continue those in September again in October and the first Sunday of the first Sunday of each month leaving from Boulder walk out the Rocky Flats 11 miles an invigorating 11 miles that's beautiful walk and then in October at the weekend of October 24th and 25th is a national weekend of protest against nuclear weapons and environmental contamination that comes along with it and will be having another major direct action out of Rocky Flats that weekend and then again sometime in April will be having another action like similar to the one that was out there on Sunday that will have people from all over the country end and aim to close the plant for the day and then after that's as far as we've planned right now who knows maybe by April will have a shutdown. But the point is that that one big demonstration is not going to do it. We need a continuous campaign of people going back again and again and again with more and more people each

time to really force the issue in and get something done finally about Rocky Flats. And in fact our campaign was built on the footsteps of the track's campaign in the Rocky Flats truth wars the people who are out there for the encirclement a few years ago. This is one step along the way and the long road which hopefully will find an end in the end will be disarmament and so people need to get involved if you're all out there thinking you should get involved yes you can and there are people just like you. There is a feeling I think among many that boulder is not part of the real world. I think that's the way it's usually said Boulder is not real. How different is bolder. How do you as organizers relate to the question of this community. Well I've lived in organized a number of major cities in the United States New York San Francisco Seattle and Boulder is the real world. Every city has its own differences has its own community but Boulder is just as much of the real world as everyone else so as to

dispel that myth. Organizing is going on in various different places. Boulder may have more of the quote liberal element and than other places but not necessarily so. We get just as much bad rap in the press as elsewhere. We get just as much support from peoples of variety of community as we get elsewhere so bolder. Although people might not think it's typical. It's one of the main major cities that are organizing it I don't find it significantly different than elsewhere. I tend to experience it a little differently and I find that's OK. I think that the world needs places like Boulder and it's a very exciting place I think for both the left and the right. Soldier of Fortune is is in Boulder for perhaps the same reason that the Rocky Mountain Peace Center is. And I don't think either of us represent the mainstream quite honestly I think that we're intending to represent a militant pacifist feminists and ecologists and that's what we're doing and we're hoping to

inspire in the middle of the road people the moderates to to trust their instincts about their their more exceptional feelings and and to strive for their utopia. And I think places like Boulder and and Madison and Austin in Berkeley serve a very important purpose in our society. What kinds of job descriptions do you shut down. Rocky Mountain the Center for volunteers. What. What kinds of skills what sorts of inclinations do you need. If there are people that might find that there's a match up between their strengths and what you're doing. You don't you don't need any skills and the only inclination you need is there is a general agreement on the issues that you want to see disarmament and you want to see some kind of environmental harmony. Yes is the best word. There's all kinds of things to do and I think the woman who called up and talked about canvassing the neighborhood as one

of the most important things people can be doing. Talk to your friends. You know come to meetings get involved in the planning get involved in and the organizational work which a lot of it isn't isn't very fun. Quite frankly a lot of it is meetings meetings endless meetings endless meetings not endless but sort of meetings. Unless putting up posters you know getting people to sign petitions selling T-shirts. If you you know you could even become a nonviolence trainer yourself. If that's your inclination I have all kinds of different levels that people can help with and I really participate at any level they feel comfortable with and when you feel like you have to go out and get arrested don't feel like you have to be the most militant you know protester at the blockade but I think it's important that you participate where you feel comfortable. Just use your imagination. First of all I have to disagree with you John that people don't need any skills I would like to say as people have the skills that we need and so whatever skills you have you can offer them to us if it's a good telephone

voice if it's good handwriting if it's a good tongue for licking stamps we can use your skills. People have what we need because we're just regular people too. We have a little bit more practice and if you have bucks we could use those also. We don't have a million dollars. When you send money sure we will run those ads somebody give us a billion dollars for it will give it a try will try anything in fact that will lead to peace so it's the real thing that there's been some discussion anyone who's been in Colorado 93 near Rocky Flats in the last six months has seen the proliferation of giant billboards out there well trying to roll with the punches as we do. We decided rather than take them down maybe we ought to buy one or rent one and put up a sign that expresses our concern about Rocky Flats. Anybody interested in that kind of idea can get in touch with the Peace Center and maybe it'll happen. Can you give us some phone numbers. Peace Center phone number Rocky Mountain Peace Center for 4 4 4 6 9 8 1 and you can also reach us through the Boulder police consortium that number is 4 4 3 3 6 8 0.

Or just drop by 15 20 you call it in the center for United ministries where we're located. John shutdown shutdown numbers 4 4 3 2 8 2 2 and if you're interested in getting involved in helping to plan for the October action volunteering getting involved in the organizational work definitely give us a call sometime in the next week or two. We're going to have our first planning meeting probably in two or three weeks after I take a very short vacation it seems like now. It's a definite give us a call at shutdown list. We're planning another action. And I especially want to hear from folks that are students out there of us who are planning on starting to shut down chapters on the various campuses in the metro Denver area as well. Joel I'd like to issue a special invitation to those people who are involved in the direct action civil disobedience campaigns of the late 1970s at Rocky Flats. Those of us who are members of the Rocky Flats truth force in 1978 79 and 80 have begun planning a 10th reunion of the truth force to take place next April 28. And we're in the process of compiling a mailing list of all of the hundreds of people

involved during those years and would like to invite anyone listening who was involved then to give the piece in a call let us know how we can stay in touch with you over the course of the next eight months and maybe you can help us get in touch with others or let people out there know that the tenor of our next action and the scope of it has not yet been decided it's it's really up to us so if you have to have any kind of effect then it show up at our meetings give us a call. We need your help you need us. And if you missed any of those phone numbers you can certainly call us once atmosphere's leaves the air and we can provide that information for you. Our phone number here at KGO is as you probably know 4 4 9 4 8 8 5. I'd like to thank John Shannon from shutdown and Wendy Rockman and Chechens that's Kay from Rocky Mountain Peace Center for joining us. I'd also like to thank our callers. Thank you for joining us. Here's a announcement hemisphere's program coming up in about three weeks. On the September 15th edition of the hemisphere Dana will bank and

Sister Agnes and shop talk about the Colorado Council of Churches statement on communism. To receive a free copy of the Council statement self-addressed stamped envelope to hemispheres and you P O Box 885 Boulder Colorado 8 0 3 0 6. Then join us for the discussion. Tuesday September 15th at 6:00 p.m. and you Boulder. Hope you'll join us next week when road kill so we'll speak with Mexico City anthropologist Scott Robinson about whether Mexico can serve as a buffer to the United States war zones in Central America and I hope you'll stay tuned to KGO and you for Amy Miller. Up next with two new hours we'll conclude this edition of hemispheres with Kate will.